View Full Version : Wing Chun is incomplete?

08-03-2000, 01:48 PM
I have heard that wing chun is an incomplete style in that it focuses mainly on in-close upper body techniques and lacks long range and ground fighting ability. is this true? i would appreciate it if the responses dont get too heated with opinions. i am interested in plain, simple facts backed by experience.

08-03-2000, 02:26 PM
Nothing is complete. If you take any style you will be able to find something that other styles have that it does not.

But in another sense, no good style is incomplete. Any good style should contain principles which the practitioner can elaborate to other situations, and contain ways within it's own techniques to defeat those outside techniques or control the fight to prevent it from coming there.

08-03-2000, 03:51 PM
great Braden, now relate what you said to wing chun. the question wasnt about the definition af a complete/incomplete style. in the post i stated what i meant by incomplete and would like to know if what i said wing chun may lack is in fact true. i understand that a principle found within a style can be applied in an infinite number of situations but generally a 'complete' style has a definite theory for each of the ranges of combat: close/long/ground/weapons.
broken down even further you could say striking with the upper body, striking with the lower body, grappling, locking (chin na), some form of vital point/internal knowledge, and the use of weapons among others. i respect wing chun, i am not in any way meaning to call it faulty. i simply wish to know if it lacks detail in any of the areas mentioned above. thanks

08-03-2000, 05:34 PM
In reply to your first Statment to whether Wing Chun is an Incomplete style and that it lacks in long range etc is False. Yes Wing Chun is primaly a Close fighting range style. The Nature of Fighting is in close range, I have Expereinced this and im sure many people would agree too. Fighting is not a spar or a point scoring match its ugly, brutal and yess close range. Thats why Wing chun is Close range its because its a Comabat Style and thus upper body and hand techniques play a vital role. Wing Chun still has long range priniples though but what are you classing as Long range??
Wing Chun works on a theory that your opponent is bigger, heavier and stronger which is what you should expect. Wing Chun is Designed for the light weight so that ground fighting would be hard for them. Wing chun does work on the Ground. We dont Grapple but we can fight on the ground. Good Wing Chun focuses heavily on footwork. Stepping is a big part of the Syllabus, and that stepping could be enterpreted as a means of long range approaches. The Pole form is Based on long Range for example.
I hope I have tried to answer the questions without Blaberying to much. No Its Incomplete and yes Wing chun Caters for all types of ranges and situaions.

08-03-2000, 06:36 PM
can you give examples of groundfighting found in wing chun? i dont intend to sound annoying. i am just interested in specifics.

08-03-2000, 08:40 PM
Hi Raatra,

The answers given so far are pretty accurate. Every system can claim to be complete yet all will have areas/ranges which they favor and thus they are more prepared for. It was not uncommon in the past for students to learn from a master and then be sent to another to train another aspect of fighting/combat.

Now to answer the question as to whether Wing Chun is a complete art I would have to say yes, as much as any art is comlete. The reason I say this is that, more than the techniques, the concepts can be applied to any range. Wing Chun does have long range techniques as well as Chin Na and Anti-Chin Na, and of course the close range and grappling methods. When it comes to ground fighting there are concepts which one would apply on the ground such as centerline and owuld allow the carry over of some techniques. Still, to be realistic, these ground techniques are not designed for fighting the ground game. In other words would I try to use Wing Chun against a BJJ stylist on the ground, probably not. Are there things I could do against him, yes. However, you lose something when you chose to fight your opponenets game. I would not try to box a boxer nor wrestle a wrestler. This does not mean I oculd not beat them just that I would prefer to utilize the strengths of my art against the "percieved" weaknesses of thiers. In a groundfighting situation there are many grabbing and pressure point attacks which are not allowed in competition. I have shown that I can attack and grab various points on my opponent, and if I can't end the fight with these can often get it back to my preferred area, standing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Does this mean I am some great Wing Chun guy, no! It simply means that I have had the opportunity to study with some higher level people who have shown me some things. My mind is still trying to grasp many more.

Wing Chun does indeed utilize a great deal of footwork. It also trains sensitivity a great deal. The goal is to be able to prevent going ot the ground. If you are taken down the goal is to break and regain your feet. Again, why fight my opponenets fight. I have had a number of street encounters and Wing Chu has served me well. Still, I am sure that any art I trained in would serve me just as well, if I practiced it.

Bottom line is that you will fight as you train. If you want to fight on the ground then that is how you must train. It does not matter if you art has groundfighting or not, if you do not practice it you will not be able to use it. You could train Judo and just emphasize throws and be inadequate when it comes ot groundwork. This would illustrate not a shortcoming of your art but of the artist. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This post is already long enough but suffice it to say there is plenty of CHin Na/Kum Sau to be found in Wing Chun. Again, I think the key to being able to apply any of this is the sensitivity one gains from Chi Sau and like exercises.



08-03-2000, 09:42 PM
Great posts Mark and Sihing73.. I very much agree... but I don't understand the long range/close range arguments.... To me, if you are able to hit a person... that is close range. Long range to me is striking from a distance... like with a weapon (gun). I don't see a difference between long and short range in hand-to-hand. If you are close enough to do damage, you are in close range. Symantics I suppose.

Also, I have found WC throws to be very effective. Of course I rely heavily on footwork more than structure.... but I'm still learning /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hmmm... as I haven't been really been exposed to WC groundwork, I'm not too sure about it. Usually, if I hit the ground, I revert to wrestling (ground and pound)-- in that WC helps greatly... other than that, I wish to learn some more submissions... not to apply it, to escape from it... I know escapes from summisions are there in WC...I just can't apply it yet....

08-03-2000, 10:39 PM
there is a serious lack a kicking and ground work in wc, therefore it's incomplete

let alone the fact that there aren't any really *powerful* strikes...


08-03-2000, 10:43 PM
Funny... I seem to kick alot /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Are you talking about those flying dragon colored tiger kicks? No WC doesn't have those.

Ground work? hmmm good point... then again we can't have everything. Although I love to throw people all the time... I still don't consider that groundwork...

08-03-2000, 10:47 PM
You said>>>The Nature of Fighting is in close range

Your absolutley right! In fact the nature of the majority of fights is soooo close range it is called "Groundfighting"!
This is the problem I have found with most traditional Wing Chun....it lacks decent groundfighting. But I am currently trying to look into a Wing Chun family in Texas who says they have their own Wing Chun groundfighting techniques that can compete with Brazilian Jujitsu.
I will let you guys all know when I get a chance to check this school out.
BTW - Sandman, are you out there?
I e-mailed your Sifu, asking him if I could check his school out, as I was interested in the groundfighting, and he hasn't responded yet! Tell him to quite playing hard to get!

08-04-2000, 01:37 AM
jojitsu27- Sifu is in China right now, as is sandman. They get back tonight but it will likely be several days or recover before he gets to email. I train with sandman.

Raatra- ok here is a wing chun technique and how it applys to a groundfighting situation.
(please note i have practiced this, and have used it in a "friendly match" but never against a ****ed off grapler)

ok the "yee-chi-kee-min-yaa" stance has (at our school) both feet at a 45 degree angle, knees pulling in to create abduction & stability. relax one side and you get "chwen-ma(mispelled i am sure)" or stance turning. let this go ****her than it normaly would and you get the "qui-sut" motion. now all of my wieght is being put down one one knee that i am driving into the ground. stick a falling or recenty fallen opontant beneath that knee and you get what we refer to as the wing chun mounted position. this is gone into more detail my sifu's "anti grapler series"

Dim gerk
Wong Gerk
Ti Gerk
Fung Gerk
and the Moi Ing Gerk/Chi Gerk/Chor Gerk Theroys
How much kicking do i need?

08-04-2000, 01:43 AM

As to there being a lack of kicking in Wing Chun I would refer you to the following link. http://fs.dai.net/ac/722920/E01.html?http://www.wingchunkuen.com
For some reason the link does not take you directly to the article. Go to "FEATURES" and you will see one entitled the DEVASTING KICKS OF SUM NUM WING CHUN KUEN This is an article giving a brief overview of the Kicks on Sum Num Wing Chun. As to there not being any "powerful" strikes or a lack thereof: where were you when I was getting hit by my seniors? They sure seemed to pack a wallop to me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jo Jitsu,

I would tend to disagree that most fights end up as some form of groundfighting. I may be just lucky but the majority of my fights have taken place standing up, with the exception of the loser going to the ground /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Not saying groundfighting is not a valuable asset but it is dangerous to get tunnell vision and concentrate too much on one aspect of fighting.


I tend to go along with you definintion of range. My opponent is unable to harm me unless he can reach me. Once a bridge is established the range is "close". Still, I understand that many like ot break it down into: Long Range/Kicking and perhaps weapons, Trapping Range, Close Range and Grappling range. I may not have them labeled correctly but I think that is pretty standard across the board. It is nice to break the ranges up as the techniques you utilize will differ depending on your position relative to the opponent.



[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 08-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 08-04-2000).]

ying jow
08-04-2000, 02:19 AM
I love ground grappling but you must remember it is more sport related. It is alot of fun but if you are not interested in competing there are other things you can do on the ground beside submissions. Wing Chun uses these types of alternatives as do most kung fu systems.

At various points during the day and at various locations check around you to see if ground grappling would even be possible at that given time. My experience is that there is normally a clinch(great for wing chun) and then people tend to be pushed into a wall, table, car, other people and sometimes the ground but not all the time.

I do kung fu and grappling and I will tell you for a fact that in a challenge match in an open area it is very difficult to beat a grappler, but when you are in a crowded bar, restroom, subway, bus, etc. it is not always possible to get the positioning required for submissions on the ground.

08-04-2000, 02:28 AM
come on lads, any puch would hurt, but i mean the kind of strength that comes from a good boxer

are you saying that wing chun has the most powerful punching?

and kicking, well fair enough, but it's hardly the best kicking style is it? what i mean by this, is that it doesn't always fulfil the kicking potential of a person.

are you saying wing chun has the best kicking?

the answers to those two quesitons, in my belief, is 'no' (i study wc btw) and thus making it incomplete. i'm not saying that any other style out there is complete...

ok, i'm talking rubbish now, when i'm annoyed with stuff (non kf) i can't write properly /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


08-04-2000, 02:34 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Yip Man tailor down Wing Chun down to its most basic moves?
He supposedly made it more efficent but the original style was much more than what he taught.

If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

08-04-2000, 02:37 AM
nice site! i've been looking for a new wing site to look at....

by the by, by saying that it's incomplete, it's not bad or anything....


08-04-2000, 02:39 AM
Hi Sharky,

Okay, I can see where you are coming from, at least I thin I can /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would tend to agree that Boxers, on an average, tend to be harder hitters. At least in the early stages of training. Still, when I think of some of the more advanced people out there I think there is quite a bit of power to be found in Kung Fu in general.

Does Wing Chun have the best kicking? Depends on what you conisder best adn for what circumstances. For the street where fast, low kicks which allow you toretain your balance, I would tend to go along with Wing Chun kicking. Still, there are those that can make other kicking methods work better for them.

Listen, lets keep in mind that Wing Chun was designed to be a stripped down efficient and quickly learned style. What I mean by stripped down is that the goal was to simply rather than complicate learning. It was designed to be able to be learned by the average person quickly and be very very effective. I think it serves its purpose quite well. We could argue that Wing Chun is incomplete but the bottom line is it is all what you chose to emphasize. Take a look at Alan Labm and see how he incorporates Chin na directly into the Chi Sau and then tell me Wing Chun has no grappling/locking techniques. As to the ground game, well I tend to think that in a real fight going to the ground is a last resort. I am not impervious to being taken down but once there my goal is to escape and regain my feet. I find this to be good sense, particularily when more than one opponent is involved. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Are there other arts that are superior when it comes to groundfighting? I would hope so, especially is that is their forte. If I wanted to learn to kick well I would take a style that spent a lot of time kicking. Since I wanted to be able to learn something quickly which would directly translate to combat I chose Wing Chun. In all my years, and some rather nasty encounters it has served me well.



08-04-2000, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sharky:
come on lads, any puch would hurt, but i mean the kind of strength that comes from a good boxer

Didn't we discuss this already in another thread? About boxing strikes and WC strikes?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>are you saying that wing chun has the most powerful punching?

No, it depends on the person, but the roots to powerful punching is there.. in the rooting, like all Kung Fu styles as well as boxing, Muy Thai etc....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and kicking, well fair enough, but it's hardly the best kicking style is it? what i mean by this, is that it doesn't always fulfil the kicking potential of a person.

What do you mean by this? Personally I like Tae Kwon Do type kicks... for show and tournaments... but not very effective for real. How do you define kicking potential?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
are you saying wing chun has the best kicking?

See my reply above about punching... replace punching with kicking... the power all depends on rooting and how much you are willing to commit the kick (ala Thai style)
Also, my Sifu has gone up against professional Thai boxers for "freindly" matches... he loves to bang shins just as much as any thai fighter... guess from kicking the Muk Jong for soooo long.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
the answers to those two quesitons, in my belief, is 'no' (i study wc btw) and thus making it incomplete. i'm not saying that any other style out there is complete...

ok, i'm talking rubbish now, when i'm annoyed with stuff (non kf) i can't write properly /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Sorry that somethings bugging you in real life... hope it gets better.

I guess it all does boil down to each individual and what he/she gets out of each art. Personally I don't think WC is incomplete, it probably is lacking in certain respects because the student of WC hasn't seen all the applications of the art yet...

I know I haven't found out everything about it yet.. for instance, we never really trained throws...but one day it just dawned on me that it's there, and I started to use it easily. I took Akido to supplement my WC, but all it did was give me more of an appreciation of WC. I plan on taking some BJJ to supplement my groundwork, but that doesn't mean WC is lacking... just that I'm lazy and want something quicker... since BJJ focuses the ground more, it's a short cut for me.... c'mon people, I'm not a professional fighter, I need to be up and running as quick as possible... hence WC and BJJ /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

08-04-2000, 03:01 AM
good post and great replys. what is "kicking potenial" as long as it works who cares. sure people can kick each other in the head but in that time i could have hit you three or four times. and i know lots of boxers and we hit just as hard and also at shorter range,ie i can step forward on a boxer and the punch loses most of the power but if your elbow is behind the punch and you acelerate into the punch its nearly as hard at the start as the end. and most styles only practice kicks above the waist in training as if you can kick good at the head your lower kicks are great. thats why most newer style kf dont kick to the head. we kick to the head, its called a stomp when they try to get up after we knock them down
see ya

[This message has been edited by benny (edited 08-04-2000).]

08-04-2000, 03:12 AM
so in you opinion, wing chun is the best style for learning to kick effectively?


08-04-2000, 03:48 AM
Umm...wing chun is one of the best arts (in my opinion) to learn how to FIGHT effectively. You don't NEED fancy high kicks to win fights. The kicks I've learned in Wing Chun have sufficed so far, so i'd say so far it's been pretty complete for me.

08-04-2000, 05:56 AM
Dear Raatra-
Sorry I am only a beginner of the style, So I dont feel the wright to speak on behalf of the system. But...
Wing Chun Dosent have any "Specific" technniques used in Specific circumstances. There arnt any specific examples I dont think that do apply to ground fighting nor to the rest of the style. Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground. The wing chun punch still works and so do all the blocks. I think we can use it but thats not the point of it. You are a far greater threat on your feet then what you are on the ground I think you are a lot stronger and better of on your feet in the first place anyway. Wing Chun can be applied on the ground but not as a means of literally fighting on the ground but only used from getting hit to the ground to getting up from the ground.

08-04-2000, 06:31 AM
i can't believe this...


08-04-2000, 09:56 AM
What Cant you Believe????

08-04-2000, 10:42 AM
Mark, everything you said was correct, i wasn't "not beleiving" anything in your postt


08-04-2000, 01:08 PM
>>>Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground

That's where you are oh so wrong my friend.
Here is some advice. Take what little Wing Chun you know now and go find someone who grapples or does sometype of MMA or groundfighting style like BJJ.
Ask to spar with them. When you get taken to the ground and get mounted, see what happens if you stick to centerline. It's called an armbar and it hurts like hell if you don't tap.
Unfortunaly many Wing Chun theories and techniques are thrown out when it comes to groundfighting, because Wing Chun was made for standing.
Now, Wing Chun sensitivity and Chi Sau ability is very, very helpful on the ground, but groundfighting is about positioning, and I haven't found any Wing Chun systems that address that range of combat.....yet!
What good does your Wing Chun do when the guy has the full mount on you and you don't have range on his face?
What about if he had your back and you are in a rear naked choke?
What if he moves in and clinches with you and throws you...do you know how to land properly?
What if you are on top in the other guys guard and you decide to start striking on his centerline......you know what will happen?
Striking on his centerline is exactly what the other guy would want you to do in that situation, and thus he would throw his legs up and execute an armbar or triangle choke when you extend your elbows and strike towards his centerline...........that is just one of many examples of how trying to translate standing Wing Chun will just get your ass kicked on the ground.
A Wing chun guy will naturally think "Oh, I'll just strike on centerline in this situation" and fall into the grapplers trap. What the Wing Chun guy should be doing to be safe in the grapplers guard position is keep his elbows at his side and arms in (as opposed to trying to maintain center), keep control of the guys lower body by grabbing his belt or pants above his crotch, guard his neck for choke attempts, and be going for an escape from the mount into side control (a position totally against Wing Chun principle since you are no longer "facing" your opponent).

Mark, I don't mean to be rude, but groundfighting has evolved way beyond what most Kung Fu styles have. It has become a specialized form of fighting and has rules and theories and principles all unto its own, that have nothing to do with and don't translate to stand up fighting.
Take it from an experienced fighter who has been doing Wing Chun for 10 years, keep your Wing Chun standing where it belongs, and when it comes to groundfighting look into a technical groundfighting only style like brazilian jujitsu, Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling, japanese submission wrestling, or Russian Sambo.
It's easy to think, "oh, I'll just punch a grappler if he tries to throw me", but what most Wing Chun guys forget and don't realize before its too late is that grapplers want to be in close range also (for a throw or takedown which will be lightening fast since it is all they practice). So the Wing Chun guy comes in for close range striking and thus does the grapplers work for him by shortening the distance needed for the takedown. Trapping range is perfect for a clinch and throw.
I guess what I am trying to tell you Mark, is that unless you are 100% sure that you can KNOCK OUT a man in the split second that it takes a grappler to grab your arms and drag you down with a suicide throw, you'd better start to crosstrain in some type of grappling.

08-04-2000, 03:10 PM
Jojitsu or whatever..
I was simply replying to what the actuall begining of this post was about.
I didnt say that Wing Chun would kick a BJJ ass if they were both on the ground. I know Wing Chun isnt supposed to be on the ground thats what I said.
Sorry but how many Street fighters know how to do all that stuff that you just said???
How often are you going to come across a guy that knows how to do all that??
The Conversation wasnt about Wing Chun trying to beat BJJ, It was just genralisation that centre line theory still works on the ground.
If you wanted to argue about styles start a conversation in the Forum about it.
Basically I think anyone who weighs more than me could kick my ass on the ground but I know if someone were to hit me to the ground I could defend my self (using Wing Chun)Untill Im standing up.
By the way Where are you from?? Just curoius..

08-04-2000, 04:59 PM
Power in a Wing Chun straight is derived from the same place as a Boxing straight.


"take the pebble from my hand"

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-05-2000).]

08-04-2000, 11:15 PM
;I studied wing chun for a number of year. Whether complete or not wing chun is complete I don't know, but it literally saved my ass in prison.

08-05-2000, 08:10 AM
heheeee i'm glad it 'saved your ass' hehe.

thanks for making me laugh, and i'm glad you came out of there alive....


08-05-2000, 08:47 AM
Actually,heres a point ive made again and again.
Your opponent doesnt have to be a skilled grappler to get you off your feet.The average guy who played high school football and has adrenalin flowing will stand a good chance of getting you down.Once down,if you dont know at least a decent amount of groundfighting,the guy wont need much more than a superior starting position to beat you down.This is what most ground guys understand but have a lot of trouble putting words to .You dont have to specialize on the ground,but youd better get comfortable there,just like in every other range of combat.

08-05-2000, 08:51 AM
very good point. I think that most people who believe they can actually control the range of combat that a fight stays in are seriously misguided and probably haven't been in many fights.

08-05-2000, 09:30 AM
u guys must be rich, and have LOADS of money.

if i had the money i'd train allday everday in b-jui jitsu, wing chun, (i'd like to just spend the whole time doing 5 animals shoalin though) and also do aikido. oh yeh, and kickboxing

i, (nothing to do with money), am unable to goto just 1 school. i would love to do jui jitsu. but i can't. so leave it out. thanks

no one really believes that u don't need groundwork, even if they say it.

keep the "secret" of having to know groundwork to yourselves, i'm sick of hearing it.....

sorry if that's harsh...


08-06-2000, 12:28 AM
Hi Sharky,

Again please reread some of my previous postings. I specifically stated that I would not try to "Box a Boxer or Grapple a Grappler". /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think that all arts should be able to be utilized at all ranges. Some are just more suited to various circumstances than others. Kind of like guns and different calibers of bullets. A .22 can kill just as well as a .45 however one is more suited to larger game and different circumstances than the other. Both will do the job but one will do it more effectively in different circumstances.

As I said, if you want to learn groundfighting then take a groundfighting art. However, realize that most grappling arts are guilty of the same "tunnell vision" they accuse everyone else of. In other words they learn to fight very well on the ground but the stand up game is lacking. I am sorry I know many of you will disagree with me, especially groundfighters /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , but, in my years of working in Law Enforcement, both as a Correctional Officer and a Police Officer I have had several physical encounters. I can not think of one instance when I was taken to the ground by my opponent. There were occassions when I would take an opoponent down and then control him there.

Someone earlier made a comment about using the Wing Chun Horse with a bent knee to pin an opponent once he is down. I can tell you that this works quite well. At the same time you wil be able to strike almost at will. Just for the record, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow of New York City has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun Curriculim. However, He was able to stop one of the Gracies students from taking him down. The guy hosted a seminar and moved in to take Sifu Chow down. Sifu struck him on the side of the head with an elbow. The guy stated he could have still completed the movement. Sifu replied he did not him him hard. The guy tried again and was almost knocked out. None of the Gracies present agreed to try Sifu Chow out. But, think about it, Sifu Chow saw something he liked and decided to incorporate it into his art. Does this make his Wing Chun any less than anyone else, I don't think so. Wing Chun does have alot to offer. Is it the best choice for everyone, probably not. Is it complete: Wing Chun is as complete as you want it to be. If you want to concentrate on Chin na you will find it is agreeable. If you want to stress groundwork you will find it as well. Still, real good groundfighting should be left to a grappler as that is their domain.

One last thing, for those that think Groundfighting is the ultimate. Most people you run into on the street will not be at a level of a Gracie. To be quite frank I am not too worried about meeting someone that good on the street. Besides, there are many factors which can make some changes to a real life encounter, weapons multiple opponents etc. In such an instance which art would you chose to use: an art that stresses one on one and taking the opponent to the ground or an art which stresses quick direct assualts and mobility? I know which one I would chose. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW: I am not a student of Sifu Chow I just like some of the things he does. He and I disagree on the need to incorporate some other arts to better our Wing Chun. I used to think like this, I took Pekiti Tirsia for some time. However the more I researched and trained in Wing Chun the more I found it contained. Does it have everything: probably not. Does it have all I am interested in? I am still looking but so far have not been disappointed. My only suggestion to anyone training is to train in your art of choice. If you think somehting is missing dig a little deeper. Chances are you will find what you are looking for, or at least an aspect of it, in your art already. Maybe not to the degree of another art but somewhat just the same.



08-06-2000, 11:27 AM
i think its alwaays good to atleast know what someone else will do to you. i have a few bjj videos that deals with escapes, reversals and sweeps. as some one once said"know your enemy."
but even though you probably wouldnt find someone who is a good bjj exponent that doesnt mean that you should not expect it. if we thought that we would only fight people who no nothing about fighting then you would only have to do it for a year not a life time. id probaly learn boxing
see ya

08-06-2000, 12:23 PM
I understand what you are talking about but, As we have been taught (hey its me Mark By the way)You should imagine that your oppenent is faster, stonger etc, But to what extent?
Is that only when where training or when where on the street aswell!!
I would rather think Im taugher and faster when I get into a blu then rather think he is faster and stronger!
But at the same time theres no point in setting to high standards for yourself!
What Do you do benny??
When your confronted do you think..."hey I better not let this guy do this or that or whatever"
Or Do you just go at it with all guns blazing?
I would seriously like to know what someone your size must think since I my self...well you know what I look like!

08-06-2000, 12:31 PM

I am not saying you should not study another art, if you chose to. What I am saying is that I feel there is nothing wrong with spending that time perfecting your own art. I do not train because I am expecting to fight. I train because I enjoy it. I feel that My art prepares me for what I will most likely face on the street. So far, my experience has backed me up. I have been doing Martial Arts since I was about 8 or so, and Wing Chun for over 18 years now. I will not say that I can grapple on the ground with a BJJ exponent. However, I am confident that taking me to the ground will not be as easy as many seem to think. No, I am not the baddest person around and I am not trying to knock anyone. I respect BJJ for what it is. However, I feel that my time is better spent preparing to face multiple attackers and those with weapons. At least, that has been my experience as to the threats I will most likley face.

Having said that; I think history will show that it was not uncommon for past masters to train and learn more than one art. But today, since most of us have to work and can not devote as much time as we might wish to the arts, I think it makes more sense to learn our art of choice rather well. If we have additional time and desire then looking into another art is fine. I have studied Judo and feel that it has helped to prepare me for the ground game, at least to the extent that I can regain my feet. Still, there are those who do nothing but Wing Chun that I would not wisht o fight, even if I got them on the ground. I have seen people utilize strikes from very short distance which hurt. The third form Bui Tze can prepare your fingers for incredible gripping techniques. Remember, in the gym rules apply outisde of the gym rules don't. Many techniques which rules favour will not carry over into the street.

I also agree with the idea of the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war. Now tell me, if I practice over 1,000 punches and kicks every single day along with footwork drills do you think I will be ill prepared for an opponent I meet on the street? If I were going to compete then I may train for the competition. In other words knowing the rules and confines of something like the UFC I would need to do a bit of groundwork to prepare. Still, for the average bar fight or street encounter I would rather perfect my side-step with a punch. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Different situations require different responses. There is nothign wrong with cross training but do it because you want to not because you think there is a shortcoming in your own system. Chances are you need to put more sweat into your art of choice and less into diversifying.



08-06-2000, 12:45 PM
dont get me wrong i love ving tsun and dont want to learn anything else i just like to know what to do if the situations arrive.
i dont think as im way to slow for that, you know me mark. i just go at it as best i can. i thought it was you but i wasnt sure. and i always think they are bigger then me as there are not many people smaller then me.
see ya

08-06-2000, 06:36 PM
Maybe this is a little philisophical but "go at it as best I can"here here.
That's exactly what you do Benny, well said.
Remember to think like a Pit Bull and kick his a$$. If he hits you get more aggressive and kick his a$$ even more. And give him/her(you never know in this day and age) one for the flav.


"take the pebble from my hand"

08-07-2000, 09:28 AM
i didnt mean i go into a fight thinking anything. i just like to know that if im in a certain position that a have a chance of getting out of it and if you know what they do you can find things in your own style which you can use to beat them. you can also learn if you study(i dont mean do it just read and look at it) other arts, how they set you up for different techs. ie if your against a bjj dude and your on top they can fake an armbar and as you try to get up(which most people who dont know do) they put you into a choke with their legs. now that mightent be the best example but you get what i mean
just my views
see ya
when i train i alway think that they are bigger,faster and stronger then me as its usually the case and it motivates me more. i dont think i actuyally cross train i just muck around when im not doing anything. one of my senoirs does stuff with some high bjj dudes and he says that he usually lets them in to get used to their tech, as if he doesnt want them too they dont get in. just so you know hes 6' something and a brick ****house so that helps alot too.

08-22-2000, 10:59 AM
I don't want to start fighting about techniques or **** like that but to answer the original question, I feel wing chun is very incomplete as a system . But look at the history it is only a couple of hundred years old supposedly put together by some grandmasters who never finished it and further developed by a nun.So what do you get from that.The practitioners of the style put Bruce Lee as the heroe of the style and credit him for taking it to the outside world. Get over it , he said this style useless and tried to develop his own . What do you get from that.I have seen many practitioners of this style fight and am yet to see any practical use of the style. In my opinion this style should be put to death as soon as possible,so as to not waste anyones time.

08-22-2000, 01:33 PM
the strength of a vt mans punch is determined by how hard he trains(wong shun leung once had his punch measured when he weighed only 45 kiloes & it was around 600pound, mike tysons is around 850 & he weighs 100+ kiloes-no power hey)
jojitsu(what ever)
i have many friends who both grapple & instuct in it. i have had only a few chances to gapple with them let me just say that they found vt very difficult to play with(1 prime example is a guy who used to train grappling at least 3 times a week 4 well over a year & i personally had only had 5 lessons in grappling, just so i wouldn't have smash people in face whilst bouncing, on 2 seperste occasions we wrestled i
won 3 out of 5 matches losing the last 2 on both occasions due to lack of coditioning, both times he asked me to stop using,as he put it,my vt **** as he was unable to get in on me.)
atomic ****head
where the hell are you ?
i would personally luv to meet u & set a few things straight.
as 4 the garbage u wrote, well in this century alone wong sifu shut as many as 50 to 100 kung fu schools in hong kong with this incomplete system just be thankful your style wasn't one .
and as 4 bruce lee you are obviously a wanker with no idea of what you are talking about-but that's just my opinion

08-22-2000, 09:02 PM
If you don't count the 6'(about combat lenght) to 12'(long training lenght)pole no WC isnt interstered in longrange attack. why stand back and get hammered. The longest would be a hip hight Kick anything higher losts range. As for ground fihgting sufi said the majority of the moves are form 1st form but not trained until the Beginning of the 3rd form. But Chi sao Agaist the wall teachs the same reflexes just have to remember gavity(no strenght can be used only good and correct technique).

08-22-2000, 11:40 PM
your point about the wall training is very cool.i can't believe your the first to mention it,i guess i just couldn't see 4 red b4.