Woman killed in boxing match

[ewallace]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/more/04/04/boxer.death.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Very sad.

[David Jamieson]

It is a risk taken.

But this does happen. Not frequently, but it does.

[ewallace]

Kinda brings you back down to reality. She was wearing head gear as well.

[cerebus]

Well, a woman died not too long ago in a "tough-woman" contest as well. Anytime a person enters the ring they have to realize that there are risks. But, as KL mentioned, it doesn't happen very often. Sorry to hear about it though. :(

[ewallace]

I'd actually like to see the full autopsy report. I wonder if something like this could be a result of a previously undiscovered problem such as an aneurysm.

[David Jamieson]

Generally, if your brain hits the wall of the skull, you will be unconcious. If the force is hard enough and the lining of the brain is torn, fluid will leak out and death can ensue quite quickly.

Currently, there is no way of knowing who's brain and cranium can withstand how much force from a punch thrown.

Just keep in mind that when you enter a fight or a match, there is a risk of death or permanent disability. It's a fact of the matter.

[red5angel]

that's what women get for entering.....oh wait, wrong forum, never mind ;)

[Oso]

Well, if she was competing then she evidently loved what she did. R.I.P.

I'd rather go that way then some other way.

I just hope this doesn't add to the liability issues already present in our society.

But, of course it will.

[ewallace]

Generally, if your brain hits the wall of the skull, you will be unconcious. If the force is hard enough and the lining of the brain is torn, fluid will leak out and death can ensue quite quickly.

True, but you won't necessarily be unconcious immediately. I was the first on scene of a car accident where a drunk guy made a bubble the size of his head in the front windsheild. He was concious for the 10 minutes before the paramedics took him away. He later died because of the fluids that leaked out as well as the brain swelling.

It(the boxing) was a freak accident but it won't be the last. I have a feeling this will spark more of a controversy than if it was a man. Nature of our society I guess. Same line of thinking as women in combat.

[Gangsterfist]

thats very sad to hear :(

On a somewhat unrelated note, a friend of mine worked at this resturaunt/bar a few years back. Three guys got into a fight and took it outside. The fight only lasted through one punch. The attacker punched the other guy, that guy fell and smacked his head on the curb. He cracked his skull and was in a coma for 8 days or so. The attacker got charged with attempted man slaughter. So, real fighting has real consequences.

Its nice to have a reality check every now and then, but its sad that its at the cost of people getting hurt.

[The Willow Sword]

Women were not designed for fighting like that,,,or for combat. Women have a more delicate structure physically and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like.
This is not as to say that women should not take martial arts to defend themselves should they be sexually assaulted or attacked. But to try and put yourself in a position where you are going to get repeated knocks to the head and body,,i mean come on.
i dont see women as a weaker sex,,and i know the feminists will come out of the woodworks to counter me on this. But it is simple,,,,Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,,,they can be fighters if they want,,but then they set themselves up as this poor woman did when she decided to enter the ring and get her block knocked off and die as a result.

women are not subserviant to the will and needs of the man but they ARE care givers and providers of our children and need not be put in the violent situations that we males put ourselves in.
thats my opinion on the subject.

Peace,,TWS

[Royal Dragon]

wOMEN AREN'T FIGHTERS lol!!! Have you ever dated?

Theresa would knock ur block off just for saying that if you two were in the same room together. Of course I've seen her break into buildings too......

I agree they are softer than us, but that really just means they need more care in the Iron head/body department.

Iron Buns, and Iron abs too :D
















Or was that Buns of steel?

[wdl]

Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,

I agree, especially compared to men women are at a physical disadvantage when it comes to fighting, lifting heavy objects, etc. I disagree on the mentality point however. You put a woman in fight mode and look out. Women vs Women is one of the most brutal fights I've ever seen, and God help you if a women puts her sights on you and has intent in the ring. At that point we as men with our "nobility" become the "weaker" sex. Most of us as men are "thinkers" in the ring, we try to psych each other out, etc. Women generally speaking when they fight men aren't like that. It's all or nothing. Women that can flip that maternal switch on when they fight are DANGEROUS.

-Will

[Ming Yue]

they can be fighters if they want,,but then they set themselves up as this poor woman did when she decided to enter the ring and get her block knocked off and die as a result.



I agree with you on a couple of levels. The average woman is not as strong nor can she easily get as strong as a man her size. Bone structure is generally more delicate... so on and so forth.

That said, this was boxing, not a streetfight. She's fighting a female opponent who is relatively equal in size and strength. She had trained for a time, from the article it appears she may have been away from training for a couple years before deciding to enter this competition. That may have been a factor.

I think in a controlled bout situation, death rates between trained individuals of both sexes are probably very similar. I would be interested to see the number of similar deaths in male fighters - Given that there are far fewer female competitors in general, I wonder if for this type of death, the percentages are similar between the genders.

bottom line is, she wanted to box, she knew the potential for injury... Still very sad. :(

[Golden Tiger]

women are not subserviant to the will and needs of the man but they ARE care givers and providers of our children
and need not be put in the violent situations that we males put ourselves in.

In nature, in most cases, it is the female that does both. Protect the young and provide care. It is only under the dominance of men was their role softened. Not that I wouldn't rather see then in bikini's rather that boxing gloves mind you........

Quote]and need not be put in the violent situations that we males put ourselves in.[/QUOTE]

Interesting use of the word "put". Why exactly do we males PUT ourselves in violent situations?
Kind of stupid if you think about it......

[Gangsterfist]

I dated this girl a few years back who had really strong legs. I mean she would squeeze me so hard sometimes I would almost pass out for loss of breathe. I would play fight with her sometimes (just comes with being a MArtists I guess) and if she didn't want to play fight back, I would get a mean attack and she would hurt me instantly to let me know to back the **** off.

Man, I miss dating that girl, too bad she had to go off to law school :(

Anyways, I know a few women who could easily probably deal with over half the guys that post on this forum. However, they may be at a physical disadvantage like mentioned before.

[The Willow Sword]

WOMEN AREN'T FIGHTERS lol!!! Have you ever dated?

Theresa would knock ur block off just for saying that if you two were in the same room together. Of course I've seen her break into buildings too......


RD there is a difference between a women getting pi$$Y with you and lashing out,,and one who gets herself in to a situation where she is going to get brutally beaten,,whether it be a sanctioned boxing match or an abusive relationship.

the fact that your woman has an attitude and has to show it by "knocking my block off" for telling what most here would regard as a reality,,well then i would have to gather that your woman is aggressive and angry due to other "issues" rather than having a warriors mentality.

and yes i have seen two women fight before,,in the street and in matches,,and in my opinion nothing could look more unatural than the sight of that,,and it pains me to see it.

Peace,,TWS

[Kristoffer]

Sad news, fortunatly it's not a common thing.

I have to throw in that I think that generally speaking - Willow is somewhat correct. But you can't say that ALL females can't be fighters. Say RD weights 70 kg's, he steps up to the female Judo champion with +100 kg's, who would u put you're money on?
Or the thai girl who's trained Muay Thai since the age of 5? You know that westerners go to Thailand and gets their asses handed to them by teenagers right?
Another example, there have been atleast one MMA fight between a man and a woman. If I remember right she lost by decision, but that fight was even.

there's always an exception to the rule.
and I still havn't seen Million Dollar Baby

[norther practitioner]

Tragic and unfortunate, RIP....


some good posts guys, and some other drivel as usual.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Did anyone see this fight?

I was wondering if she died from the impact of the fall. When Michael Spinks fought Mike Tyson several years ago, Mike caught Spinks with a balance disrupting shot that made Spinks fall back. The impact of Spinks' head on the canvas was so hard (I suspect insufficient padding), his head was bobbling as he got up. And people, then, thought it was Tyson's punch that did the damage.

mickey

[GeneChing]

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not I," says the referee,
"Don't point your finger at me.
I could've stopped it in the eighth
An' maybe kept him from his fate,
But the crowd would've booed, I'm sure,
At not gettin' their money's worth.
It's too bad he had to go,
But there was a pressure on me too, you know.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not us," says the angry crowd,
Whose screams filled the arena loud.
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight.
We didn't mean for him t' meet his death,
We just meant to see some sweat,
There ain't nothing wrong in that.
It wasn't us that made him fall.
No, you can't blame us at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says his manager,
Puffing on a big cigar.
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell,
I always thought that he was well.
It's too bad for his wife an' kids he's dead,
But if he was sick, he should've said.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the gambling man,
With his ticket stub still in his hand.
"It wasn't me that knocked him down,
My hands never touched him none.
I didn't commit no ugly sin,
Anyway, I put money on him to win.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the boxing writer,
Pounding print on his old typewriter,
Sayin', "Boxing ain't to blame,
There's just as much danger in a football game."
Sayin', "Fist fighting is here to stay,
It's just the old American way.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the man whose fists
Laid him low in a cloud of mist,
Who came here from Cuba's door
Where boxing ain't allowed no more.
"I hit him, yes, it's true,
But that's what I am paid to do.
Don't say 'murder,' don't say 'kill.'
It was destiny, it was God's will."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

['MegaPoint]

Is kicking your own ass, or killing your own ass, the kind of training one needs to preserve his/her life? Sounds like Nominal Budo to me.

[FatherDog]

Women were not designed for fighting like that,,,or for combat. Women have a more delicate structure physically

No, actually, they don't. Women are actually somewhat sturdier than men.


and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like.

Again, no they aren't. You are talking out of your ass as usual.

[SanSoo Student]

As long as she died what she wanted to do, people should learn from her mishap and train harder to reduce such risks.

[The Willow Sword]

No fatherdog i am not talking out of my a$$,,,,,,,why dont you take your comments and shove them up yours crossways. :)

TWS

[truewrestler]

I agree with TWS. Women should not fight, play any sports or be doctors. Hell, they shouldn't even be leaving the house. They should stay at home where it is safe, popping out babies and making sure dinner is ready when I get home.

[Akhilleus]

This women's death, is of course a tragedy...what scares me is that she was already a trained champion, in Golden Gloves no less, not just somebody off of the street that didn't know what they were doing...

but, if she had never boxed, maybe she would have gone on to live another 40-60 years, merely a fraction of an instant in the earth's long history...not even a speck on its timeline...should she have never boxed, and simply died anyway, albeit a little bit later?

I am sure that her family wishes that she had done indeed that...to one person, 40-60 years is the better part of a lifetime...imagine if great philanthropists such as Mother Theresa or "Patch" Adams had been killed in boxing matches when they were in their mid-30s...

If boxing is something that people compete in for fun, well, do you want to risk your life for something that is simply a little bit of fun? Ah ha, but don't we risk our lives every time we get into our car? At what point do we say, the odds of death are too great? Do we refuse to leave our houses? And simply die anyway years later? Do we make sure that we live life to the fullest, disregarding our personal safety? If I think it is very fun and exciting to play Russion Roulette, should I do so? Or do we attempt to balance the two, adventure with caution, fun with prudence...I don't know...

[truewrestler]

I think as fine as women are competing against women then there is no problem with them in any sport. A 100 times more men have died in boxing in the last 100 years than women--thousands of times more over the history of man. Maybe men are the ones that should not be fighting.

[red5angel]

Women were not designed for fighting like that,,,or for combat. Women have a more delicate structure physically and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like.


Wow, a sexist hippy, who'd a thunk it?!

Fatherdog is right of course TWS, you are talking out of your ass again. Anyone want to bother finding reports on how many men have died in boxing matches? I'm feeling too lazy at the moment to correct this stooge. When you finally figure those numbers out TWS, then go back to that article and, if memory serves, it says this woman could possibly be the first women fatality in the sport of boxing.

[Akhilleus]

Plenty of women could tool most of us in boxing or a street fight...toughness knows no gender, nor does injury in sports...

[ewallace]

Where is Wushu Chik when you need her?

[ewallace]

Plenty of women could tool most of us in boxing or a street fight...toughness knows no gender, nor does injury in sports...
Horse pucky. I have very little hair. :)


This should go in the training myths thread in the Training and Health forum.

[Ming Yue]

the more I read your comments, the more wrong you get.


But to try and put yourself in a position where you are going to get repeated knocks to the head and body,,i mean come on.

Why then is it ok for men? If I acknowledge (and I do) that I can get injured doing what I love, why should I not do it? Should I also give up mountain biking? I might get hurt doing that too.


i dont see women as a weaker sex,,

nice try, but you quite obviously do.


Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,,,

This is a gross generalization. The physicality angle has been discussed here and mentally, if you've got the eye for fighting, you've got it regardless of sex.

How do you feel about women instructors in martial arts? Have you ever had the opportunity to train with a woman who had more years of MA than you? Do you just avoid it?

[Gangsterfist]

When I went to tuscon last year for the ho kam ming reunion, one of his last top students is a girl. She had great skills and would make a great teacher.

Your generalizations about women are pretty much all stereotypical. I could argue how the female body is more evolved than the male body.

The thing is, I know and have met women that are indeed fighters, and could hold their own against a man. The thing is that fights are measured by strength, size, endurance, and skill. Men are in general stronger and larger than women, so it gives them an advantage. However, those are not end all be all circumstances.

--EDITED for typos

[ewallace]

All I know is that I sure as hell would not want to fight Mohammad Ali's daughter. I guess some is out of respect for her father, and the other is there would be a good chance she could knock me the fuk out.

[truewrestler]

TWS has earned the Troll of the Day Award

[red5angel]

Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,,,

Willow Sword, if you want to generalize, I'd have to say you're not mentally prepared for fighting. Just about everything you say about the martial arts, and currently about women, leads me to believe you have no clue what fighting is really about. In any context.

[The Willow Sword]

you are labelling me a "sexist hippi" and a "troll" and you are not reading what i am saying.

do i have to get detailed because you guys dont have an ounce of common fuking sense amongst you?


"Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters" now what do i mean by this? if you have any physiological knowledge you will understand what i am trying to say here. Although women have a more limber structure and have an endurance to pain(child birthing and such) they still have a softer interior and and softer exterior,,unless they are taking male hormones and testosterone for weight lifitng competitions and such(which i think is very unatural and horrible on a womans internal system to injest those things) Their calcium content in thier bone structure and connective tissue in regions of the body such as shoulders knees and other joint areas are not as solid and more suseptable to injuries, bruising,osteoporosis, and other arthritic ailments,,now when you are hitting hard surfaces and causing alot of extreme impact on the system and the joints and muscles in these regions of the body(as with martial arts training). this wears and tears on the body.
in fighting you are taking your body to the extremes in these situtations and a woman is going to be more suseptable to getting hurt alot worse and having a longer recovery time(note that i am not factoring childbirth in which is a stress and a strain on a womans body but THIS is what she was physically designed to handle and deal with and even this being the truth women still die in childbirth MORE SO that men will die in boxing matches)

as for the mentality part of my statement. you have to look at the feminine psyche and the feminine structure of that psyche,,the nature of women as i understand it are the nurturers and care providers for our children.(now before you go thinking "sexist hippi" actually READ IN TO WHAT I AM WRITING HERE AS IT IS NOT A SEXIST REMARK) the feminine mind and essence is that of the utilization of the calm and loving and emotional body,,and there for is not in its element in a boxing match nor does it fit when one is trying to act and be something that they are not.
Now i am one who does not think that women shoudl NOT be in martial arts,,but i feel that a woman is bettering herself and her self esteem NOT by getting in to these macho tournaments and fighting matches,,but to learn how to defend herself should she be confronted in an assault situation.

as i have said and will say again that women shoudl not be brutalizing themselves in these competitions,,we have already seen what can happen when they do.

and YES i have been taught some tai chi by female teachers,,i dont see anything wrong with that,,or women who teach self defense to other women,,we have a fine school here that has been teaching that for years here in austin.

now shut the fuk up with your stupid "sexist hippi" comments and lets actually have a decent debate here. and NO i dont think that women are a weaker sex,,i never said nor implied that,,you just are thinking that because you have nothing else to bring to the conversation other than that. so either post with your intelligent opinions or shut the fuk up.

PEACE<<TWS

[red5angel]

NO i dont think that women are a weaker sex

Yes you do, here, let me help you:


Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters


they still have a softer interior and and softer exterior


Their calcium content in thier bone structure and connective tissue in regions of the body such as shoulders knees and other joint areas are not as solid and more suseptable to injuries, bruising,osteoporosis, and other arthritic ailments


woman is going to be more suseptable to getting hurt alot worse and having a longer recovery time


I could go on into the psychological comments you made but I think you're probably getting the picture here.

So it turns out not only are you a sexist hippy, but you are full of BS as well. Ask a woman what she really thinks about this crap you're spouting and I bet you get the stink eye at best, a good slap in the face for being a sexist hippy if she isn't as weak as you claim she is ;)

[ewallace]

the nature of women as i understand it are the nurturers and care providers for our children
I wonder, and would like a woman's opinion that this applies to...if a woman is neglected as a child...in the sense that her mother was not of the nurturing type, or is abandoned, if this changes the "natural physche". The reason for this thought is my soon-to-be former mother-in-laws' mother was not the nurturing type, and in turn neither is my mother-in-law, nor is my soon-to-be former wife.

[The Willow Sword]

just because i dont feel that women are really designed for fighting doesnt mean that i think that they are the or a weaker sex. just because i feel this way doesnt mean that i think that they are weak you IDIOT.

jesus h fuking christ on a rubber crutch :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:

[red5angel]

but your describing weak characteristics. How can someone have the characteristics you describe and still not be weak in some way? The very fact that you think they are not capable of fighting means you think they are weaker then yourself or men in general. Just admit it Willow Sword, you don't think women are as strong as men. You don't think that even if you leveled the playing field they could perform like men do.
did you bother to do that research on how many men have died in boxing matches compared to the one woman so far to have died in boxing matches?

[red5angel]

As for women being natural nurturers, that may be true to a small extant but I"ve seen plenty of women who shouldn't have children....ever. You're basically just generalizing the hell out of women with out much real understanding here eh TWS?

[The Willow Sword]

"The very fact that you think they are not capable of fighting "


I DID NOT SAY THAT WOMEN WERE NOT CAPABLE OF FIGHTING i SAID that i feel like they are not DESIGNED Physically AND Mentally for FIGHTING,,especially like we men seem to do all the time.

Come on Red5 is your blood sugar low? you need some ginko biloba? sheesh :rolleyes:

[Ming Yue]

I wonder, and would like a woman's opinion that this applies to...if a woman is neglected as a child...in the sense that her mother was not of the nurturing type, or is abandoned, if this changes the "natural physche". The reason for this thought is my soon-to-be former mother-in-laws' mother was not the nurturing type, and in turn neither is my mother-in-law, nor is my soon-to-be former wife.

EW, in my experience that trait is as more a part of nature as it is of nurture. My grandmother was horrible to my mom, pretty much the opposite of loving. My mom was on her own emotionally from the time she was a tiny girl.

She was (perhaps compensating for her own experience) a fabulous mother to me. In turn, I now have a boyfriend with a little boy, and I find myself naturally being more nuturing than I thought I would. It surprised me a little, actually.

Note to TWS: It didn't take the fight out of me to discover this, nor does my tomboy nature appear to have lessened my ability to nuture. I, and many other women, can be more than just our stereotypical roles at our core.

A close friend of mine had a model mother, super loving and supportive, and she is one of those women who simply cannot stand children and doesn't want to take care of anyone.

['MegaPoint]

just because i dont feel that women are really designed for fighting doesnt mean that i think that they are the or a weaker sex. just because i feel this way doesnt mean that i think that they are weak you IDIOT.

jesus h fuking christ on a rubber crutch :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek:

I don't think anyone was made to have their head bludgeoned continuously for many minutes. My theory is that those with superiority complexes are adept at getting the "sheep" to beat, compete and kill each other off, and this is most apparent in a sport like boxing where what makes us human, our brains, is attacked repeatedly until some mental or physical deficit occurs.

Sure boxers are consenting adults, but they have been given a "better" option than being poor and a nobody and a hefty prize to claim if they get real good at "damaging brains". Boxing is just human dog fights or sanctioned sadism at its worst.

The founder of White Crane was a female who could kick a$$. Women can be made into warriors just like guys can. Yes they have less bone density, muscle density and overall strength -but- they are often smarter, quick, flexible and have a high pain tolerance.

A female lion may not be as **** diesel as a male, but they can still take care of business. I've known some cj=hicks who knock most cats the f-ck out!

Dudes are tougher though :).

[wdl]

I must reiterate,

Yes, it's a scientific FACT, compared to a man a woman is built at a physical disadvantage. However, a womans mentality..... oh man. Don't EVER question it when it comes to the ability to fight. When they flip the b|tch switch it's on. I've sparred against women that have gotten a high off it, they get aroused. When you can see tit through the bra they are standing to hard, something's going on in there head and I know it's not my good looks.

-Will

[red5angel]

so all the sexist hippies are in agreement then? Women are weaker and shouldn't be fighting ever?

Willow Sword, I challenge you to back up even half of your claims scientifically. We all know in general men are stronger then women, but we're not talking a competition between men and women, we're talking about competition between members of the same sex and in a sport setting usually of a similar skill level and size/strength.

[SevenStar]

I agree with you on a couple of levels. The average woman is not as strong nor can she easily get as strong as a man her size. Bone structure is generally more delicate... so on and so forth.

That said, this was boxing, not a streetfight. She's fighting a female opponent who is relatively equal in size and strength. She had trained for a time, from the article it appears she may have been away from training for a couple years before deciding to enter this competition. That may have been a factor.

I think in a controlled bout situation, death rates between trained individuals of both sexes are probably very similar. I would be interested to see the number of similar deaths in male fighters - Given that there are far fewer female competitors in general, I wonder if for this type of death, the percentages are similar between the genders.

bottom line is, she wanted to box, she knew the potential for injury... Still very sad. :(

overall, boxing ranks 8th in fatalities - but she was the first woman to die. The weird thing is, from stuff I've been reading, she got dropped with a jab... no jab is THAT hard. theat would lead me to believe that either

1. she hit the canvas extremely hard, or

2. she had a previous bran injury.

Another thing to consider is age - this woman was 34. She was a martial arts instructor as well, coincidentally. She taught goshin jutsu.

[SevenStar]

EW, in my experience that trait is as more a part of nature as it is of nurture. My grandmother was horrible to my mom, pretty much the opposite of loving. My mom was on her own emotionally from the time she was a tiny girl.

She was (perhaps compensating for her own experience) a fabulous mother to me.


that's probably key here - she wanted to give you what her mother did not give her. It rubbed off on you though, and now you are doing the same.

On the other hand, I know ALOT of women who have no desire to have kids and who are completely mean to them. It makes me wonder whether or not women actually are nurturing by nature...

[X-Warrior]

I just heard a couple of months ago that in Muay Thai there is 35-40 deaths every year. I am not sure if this is pro or amature fighting though.

Then, how many fatal accidents there are on the road each day? We still drive or take the bus/train to work, school, or to the store every day. How many people are killed because of crimes each day?

Or just look at the occupations that rank high on the list of job related fatalities: construction, lumber yards, fishing ... etc. Danger is everywhere, we can only do so much. I personally witnessed the death of two construction workers when a large container at a site began it's way down from the 10th floor. Smashing through each floor, it took two electicians with it that were standing on the 8th floor. It was pretty messy by the time the container arrived at the ground level.

-X-

[red5angel]

that's probably key here - she wanted to give you what her mother did not give her. It rubbed off on you though, and now you are doing the same.

On the other hand, I know ALOT of women who have no desire to have kids and who are completely mean to them. It makes me wonder whether or not women actually are nurturing by nature...


That can't be right. According to Willow Sword Women are naturally nurturing baby makers...who are weak.

I notice he's been oddly silent today, must be he can't speak around that gigantic foot of his he stuck in his mouth.

[Gangsterfist]

true story,

A friend of mine who I have known for many years and trained kung fu with for a while had this friend. He was dating this girl, who just happened to be a black belt in some sort of karate. They went out to the bar and this guy started flirting with her, and he was crossing the line. Bumping into her and coping feels and stuff. So, the guy she was with tried to do the gentlemen thing and make him stop. It stopped but when they left they were harassed in the parking lot. She reverse puched the guy in the chest caving in some ribs and it punctured one of his lungs. He went to the hospital and she got charged with assault.

I don't know the outcome of the trial, but she was like 5'6" and 135lbs or so and took out a full grown man with one hit.

Also, wing chun was created by a woman.

[PangQuan]

Also, wing chun was created by a woman.


So say some stories which are highy speculative. We have all heard the Ng Moy story but there is not much way of backing that up with factual evidence.

[PangQuan]

Humans in general were made to take a beating. Women are **** tough. If you look at it from a mamal point of view, the woman is the one who carries the child. They have that natural killer instinct. But its usually set in reserve for when they are with child and for when they have children.

Us men just realized our physical superiority, which is in place due to the need our species has of us. We are hunter/gatherer, we are required to be able to tap into our killer instinct at any point in time. As we evolved we used this ability (testostorone) to declair ourselves the stronger of the two sexes.

Look at a woman who has never had a child that practices martial arts. Then find a mother that practices martial arts. Moms are hardcore creatures. They have to be removed from the average polls of regular women.

I have seen some pretty tough chicks, and I have seen some pretty girly men. On average men are the physically stronger sex, but there is no rule dictating that this is of a 100% ratio.

[Gangsterfist]

So say some stories which are highy speculative. We have all heard the Ng Moy story but there is not much way of backing that up with factual evidence.


Well, wing chun history is pretty much all ****ed up anyways. There is no hard evidance of anything being true. For the most part Ng Mui is in most of the major lineages stories, and is what yip man passed down as the history. I study along the YM lineage and thats what I was told.

Other lineages say she never existed but they can't prove it. If you ever study wing chun it makes sense, its designed around always fighting a bigger stronger opponet. Also, the wing chun dummy form is all about fighting an opponet who is bigger and stronger than you. You cannot directly attack the dummy, it hurts, you cannot forceably move the dummy, you must learn to move around it.

I don't care if Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun really existed or not, it doesn't effect my training nor do I want to make some marketing scheme out of it. I train wing chun as a combative art, and I keep an open mind to improve it and refine it as I train it.

[SevenStar]

Also, wing chun was created by a woman.

there are several stories. I heard that it was created by a man, but he created it for his daughter, as she had to fight a man. he taught her techniques that required little strength and named the style after his daughter.

[PangQuan]

I created wing chun and anyone who has a problem with that can just go here.

http://hitman.us/main.html

[Gangsterfist]

there are several stories. I heard that it was created by a man, but he created it for his daughter, as she had to fight a man. he taught her techniques that required little strength and named the style after his daughter.


There is also a theory that Ng Mui was a man disguised as a woman to keep his identity secret. Afterall, the qing were trying to kill all the surviving monks on site.

He then taught it to his first pupil Yim Wing Chun so she could protect herself againsta gangster who was trying to force her into marriage, and later named the style after her.

So, yeah its all just a bunch of stories, I just go along with the classic that it was developed by a woman.

[ewallace]

There is also a theory that Ng Mui was a man disguised as a woman to keep his identity secret. Afterall, the qing were trying to kill all the surviving monks on site.
Great, so the first drag queen was a wing chunner. :)

[red5angel]

Sorry PangQuan but I have copyrighted and patented the only True VWingTschun (tm) system. It is the only real wingchun system as it was passed on to me by Ng Mui directly through spiritual enlightenment, while I was cultivating my Qi.


Willow Sword got cranky cause he got called out. I got a PM from him, something about knocking this bull**** off. I guess sexist hippies aren't as solid in their beliefs that women are weak to stick it out in public.

[Merryprankster]

I see that TWS remains as impervious to anything smacking of common sense or logic as ever.

Good to know that there are unchanging constants in the universe. It gives one a sense of security and order.

[Gangsterfist]

Great, so the first drag queen was a wing chunner. :)

Well, if you don't count the greeks and roamans.

[X-Warrior]

Hey red5angel,

Did you study any other styles besides WT? Who did you learn from, where is your school located at?

-X-

[PangQuan]

Hey red5angel,

Did you study any other styles besides WT? Who did you learn from, where is your school located at?

-X-

LOL.......

[The Willow Sword]

Women were not designed for fighting like that,,,or for combat. Women have a more delicate structure physically and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like.
This is not as to say that women should not take martial arts to defend themselves should they be sexually assaulted or attacked. But to try and put yourself in a position where you are going to get repeated knocks to the head and body,,i mean come on.
i dont see women as a weaker sex,,and i know the feminists will come out of the woodworks to counter me on this. But it is simple,,,,Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,,,they can be fighters if they want,,but then they set themselves up as this poor woman did when she decided to enter the ring and get her block knocked off and die as a result.

women are not subserviant to the will and needs of the man but they ARE care givers and providers of our children and need not be put in the violent situations that we males put ourselves in.
thats my opinion on the subject.

Peace,,TWS


looks like yet again i have to explain myself here because i guess i have too much faith in the common sense and the ability of some readers here to look at things objectively and not get all bent out of shape over them. :rolleyes:

let me explain MY meaning for this first post i posted here and that will be the end of it. i will break it down for you ,,uhh pay attention all you feminazis and men with your b@lls and short hairs caught in a sling by your girlfriends/wives/lifepartners etc. :D


Women were not designed for fighting like that,,,or for combat THAT,,meaning the boxing match that this woman got in to and got killed in, i dont believe that women should put themselves in those kinds of brutalization competitions,,NOT because i think that they are WEAK,,but because i dont feel that it was meant for a women to put her body through that type of brutalization,,why do it? to prove that you can do what a man can do? whats the point. im not backing down from this opinion.


Women have a more delicate structure physically and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like. Delicate structures does NOT mean WEAKER,,,i dont feel that having a delicate body structure is a weakness,,weakness meaning useless and not having the ability to fully function. It is fact that a womans bone structure and muscle fibres are delicate and that any type of strain put upon them,,say like in a fighting match,there are going to be more injuries to a womans body associated with those types of activities.

This is not as to say that women should not take martial arts to defend themselves should they be sexually assaulted or attacked Here again i am stating that in my perspective and as i have posted later on from the first page in this thread that i believe that a woman betters herself NOT by getting into these fighting matches but rather taking martial arts for practical self defense. A woman is more likely to be sexually assaulted and battered in that manner and should be taking the necessary courses to counter THOSE types of attacks,,,because that is how most women are attacked in this country,,the stats are there,,it is a FACT,,i am not going to explain it as this should be commonplace for all you martial artists and women martial artists as well.

But to try and put yourself in a position where you are going to get repeated knocks to the head and body,,i mean come on. And this goes for us MEN as well who decide that boxing and these types of reality fighting matches make one have better charatcer and builds discipline and the rest if the macho BS associated with these types of events,,this is a personal opinion of mine and i know not all will agree with me. i respect these fighters but i do not feel that what they are doing is productive in thier lives even if they are making a decent financial living at it,,take mohammed ali for example,,his head and brain injuries are quite evident now,,yes he was agreat boxer and had a great personality,,but he paid the price for it.

i dont see women as a weaker sex,,and i know the feminists will come out of the woodworks to counter me on this. i need not say anything more than that and if you people want to misinterpret what i am writing here then go on ahead and misinterpret.


But it is simple,,,,Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters,,,they can be fighters if they want,,but then they set themselves up as this poor woman did when she decided to enter the ring and get her block knocked off and die as a result. ok here is where people are getting thier panites in a bind. for me this goes back to an old traditional ideal that women are the caregivers and nurturers of our society,,they bear our children,,they feed our children they are compassionate loving and governed by thier emotional body and i dont see this as a weaker trait nor do i see it as something that is subserviant to the needs of the man,,,i may have some old fashioned values but i am NO Chauvanist or hater of women. Anyone who knows me personally will know this about me.
i just feel that it is an unatural thing to see two women going at it in that manner brutalizing themselves and each other in the manner that us men feel we need to do with ourselves,,,some of you guys get off on that sort of thing and well,,,thats your thing,,it is not mine,,some of you women get off on that sort of thing,,,i say whats the **** point?

so there once again is my explanations and break down of my opinions based on the thread here. people need to relax and actually take the time to read peoples opinions instead of making all these snap judgments about them. you people are way smarter than that.

Peace,,,TWS

[Merryprankster]

Anyone who knows me personally will know this about me.

This sounds suspiciously like the KKK guy who says:

I'm not a racist, I have tons of black friends...


as long as they know their place....


Here's a hint for you pal, it's not about what YOU want, or what I want. It's about what THEY want. What YOU think of it is immaterial.

[Ming Yue]

Women have a more delicate structure physically and are suseptable to more injuries and life threateneing ones associated with fighting matches and the like.


I am glad of one thing: that you stated these thoughts as your opinion. That much is certainly true. I hope you recognize that your statement above is an enormous generalization. I would like to see some proof that women are more suseptible to life threatening injuries.

In my years of MA as a woman, competing with other women, training with other women, I can speak from direct experience. Speaking strictly from a competitive standpoint, we get hurt LESS than men we train with.

[The Willow Sword]

we get hurt LESS than men we train with .


Ming? have you ever been in Full contact matches? that is to say,have you ever been in any of the "reality" fights or been in a full on and full force fight?
This is a personal question i ask now but have you ever been assaulted? what injuries did you sustain? how long was your recovery time and such?

Have you or ANY of you here read the statistics regarding women and osteoporosis ,,rheumatoid arthritis,,bursitis,,and the ailments associated with the musculo skeletal system?


Merry prankster has always been an antagonist to me from the get go,,so anything that he has to say to me is not coming from anything other than his BS with me,,,so i will not acknowledge anything he has to say as anything of value or respond in the manner in which he responds to me.


Peace,,,TWS

[red5angel]

This sounds suspiciously like the KKK guy who says:

I'm not a racist, I have tons of black friends...


as long as they know their place....


Here's a hint for you pal, it's not about what YOU want, or what I want. It's about what THEY want. What YOU think of it is immaterial.


That's right, Willows sword is fukking sexist pig. On top of thta he's an internet tough guy. Hey willow sword, you can assume your ridiculous PM's are being deleted from this point on, you got something to say to me you man up and say it here alright fukko? Now stop spreading you sexit ****e and shut up big man.

[Ming Yue]

I have been involved in a bunch of street level bloody nose scuffles, three full on encounters, one with a man significantly larger than me. Suffice to say I got away. That is my desired level of self defense: escape. But that's not the point.

The case in question was a controlled boxing match with an opponent of similar size. I personally don't think ANYONE should get involved in a full out street brawl beyond engaging long enough to guarantee survival and/or escape. People who enter full contact matches know what the consequences will be, male or female.

Osteoporosis is rare in women under 55. I have never seen, nor heard, any evidence that women get bursitis more than men. Bursitis is, I believe, a degenerative joint problem and is not often if ever caused by injury. Women are three times more likely to get Rheumatoid Arthritis, but again, it's not caused by injury and is rare in younger women.

[Merryprankster]

Merry prankster has always been an antagonist to me from the get go,

No, I was an antagonist to you after patiently explaining what a competitors mindset takes. Sorry if I objected to being called a violent, egotistical ***** who was nothing more than a bully, because I choose to challenge myself. Since you've never competed on the scale that I choose to, you're speaking of it completely out of ignorance.

And unfortunately, I don't suffer fools gladly. You sure do remain the Willow Sword. Sharpness isn't one of your properties at all.

[The Willow Sword]

:rolleyes: whatever guys....a mile wide and an inch deep is what both of you are.


at any rate,,thanks for the other more decent replies(ming yue,,wdl,, kristoffer,,GT,,akhilleus......)

peace,,,,TWS

[Becca]

I wonder, and would like a woman's opinion that this applies to...if a woman is neglected as a child...in the sense that her mother was not of the nurturing type, or is abandoned, if this changes the "natural physche". The reason for this thought is my soon-to-be former mother-in-laws' mother was not the nurturing type, and in turn neither is my mother-in-law, nor is my soon-to-be former wife.

My oldest sister (half sister by father) was very messed up by her mother. I won't go too much into the details out of deepest respect and love for her. She's the mother of 4 very lively kids (only two of them are hers by blood, but never suggest the other two are not her's unless there is several thousand miles between you. ;) )Her step dauter was was raped by the egg donner's (birth mother ;) ) boyfriend. The man was found severly beaten after the cops refused to press charges claiming not enough eveidence... Cops didn't believe him that my not-so-big big sister did it, either. :D I think I aught to add that she was/still is battling Lupis and isn't in the best physical condition.

If I have any questions about what to do when my boys are acting up, I usually call her. She has a natural sence of how best to discipline kids without breaking thier spirit. How do you deal with a kid who gets into trouble at school on thier birthday? She had the best answer in the world. Have a family dinner and cake, but no present or party untill the child earns the right to have them, even if it takes a few weeks. They will know you still love them, but will not tolerate this kind of behavior at all.

[Vash]

It is simple,,,,Women are not designed physically or mentally to be fighters

Coming from a guy who uses a comma in place of a period, that carries a whole lotta weight.

[Merryprankster]

whatever guys....a mile wide and an inch deep is what both of you are.

Are you sure you understand what this means? Because it's an ill-placed insult with about zero relevance as far as I can tell.

[The Willow Sword]

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell ;)

it is a lovely quote and applies to both you AND red5. Just as " A mile wide and an inch deep" applies as well. and by you MP believeing the " zero relevance" to the quote only strenghthens my point. now STFU and go train.

i have said my say in this thread,,,,,,TWS

[Merryprankster]

As usual, it is you who miss the point. The POINT, is that women may choose to do whatever they like to do. You may not agree with it, but that is the POINT.

Bringing in irrelevant physical generalities does not address that in any way. You may think it's a bad idea - an opinion to which you are entitled. You may disagree with sportive combat - an opinion to which you are entitled. But again, none of these things address the POINT....

You list a host of reasons why you think woman should not fight, including physical and psychological make up....

But you never address the central issue which is the choice of the woman. In fact, you deny the choice of the woman, stating, in essence, that women have a "separate but equal role." Never mind that separate but equal is inherently unequal when discussing opportunity/roles...your viewpoint robs the female decision to fight of legitimacy because it establishes that the decision to fight sportively is outside the role of women and thus incorrect (and in your opinion on several levels). Heck, the simple fact of establishing specific roles (behavior as opposed to labels folks - we call mom and dad mom and dad because of their sex, not because dads are one way and moms another) based on gender is prejudicial because it establishes boundaries on choice that are arbitrary and generalized, rather than based on individual capability.

They call that sexism.

One blade shy of a sharp edge again.

[David Jamieson]

my wife did muay thai for a while back in the city we used to live in. She was pretty good at it too and still practices on the heavy bag downstairs and does some rounds of light stuff with me.

I also know other women who are into boxing and other ma and they all fair well and love the training simply from what it is.

Point is, chicks got it too if they work at it the same as any guy.

I know many a flabby mo fo who couldn't hold a candle to some of these women if it cames to fisticuffs.

Not that they are uber powered killer chicks from heII, but then not many guys are uber powered killers from heII either.

Martial arts are for everyone who wants to put in teh time and effort to practice and study. That's all.

And in martial arts, accidents happen and on occasion deaths occur. That is known up front by anyone who would enter into the practice. If it isn't, well, I am sorry those few people haven't done their due dilligence before beginning.

[X-Warrior]

LOL.......

Why are you laughing panquan, I was just wondering where he/she learned from because I live the same town he/she does. I might know the school.

Doh!

-X-

[Becca]

...And in martial arts, accidents happen and on occasion deaths occur. That is known up front by anyone who would enter into the practice...
The same could be said of living. In 10+ years of training, I have never seen anyone get killed. In less than 3 years, at work alone, I've actually seen 5 people die and know of anothr 7 whom I didn't see. Only two died of heart disease. :( I have see some nasry training injuries, but the worst injury I've ever had, a hip dislocation, was not from training, but rather an accident.

BTW guys, if WillowSward wants to go on beliving that drivle he is spouting, let him. Some peeps simply prefer to live in LaLa Land. That last quote of his is kind of funny, actually, consitering the source. His ideas on gender roles are likely not his own, he likely cannot even point out exactly were they came from, yet he has no problem spouting it... :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

:rolleyes: whatever guys, I'm an sexist hippie with an @sshole a mile wide and an inch deep.



You know what I really love about this whole thing? Not that TWS makes a complete ass of himself but that the hippie turns to anger and threats because he can't handle having his opinion challenged.

[The Willow Sword]

ok now what is the legal term for someone falsifying a statement you make?
When someone modify's a Statement for thier own personal gain or enjoyment but broadcasts it as what the other person says is slanderous i think.

Grow up red5,,,like i told you in the pm's Pull your angry head out of your angry a$$. I may be expressing to you what i think of you but i have not lowered myself to your juvenile level and take a quote from you and slander it here on the boards.

people may not agree with me and my views and misinterpret what i am saying but i think that even at that they can ALL agree that your last little post was Just as equally as stupid if not more than they think my posts are in this thread.

You need to settle down.
Peace,,TWS

[David Jamieson]

willow-

you won't understand until Starla beats the living crap out of you. :D

[Ming Yue]

Wow, Ming yue is intelligent. She's so eloquent, I bet she's really dedicated to gong fu. Becca too, is remarkable, she obviously has tons of MA experience. Those dames sure got a fine set of brains on em, that's all I gotta say. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'm gonna go think up something clever and quote myself in my own sig.


Relax, TWS. A little recreational slander can't possibly make you look any worse in this thread.

[red5angel]

ok now what is the legal term for someone falsifying a statement you make?
When someone modify's a Statement for thier own personal gain or enjoyment but broadcasts it as what the other person says is slanderous i think.

So sue me.


Grow up red5,,,like i told you in the pm's Pull your angry head out of your angry a$$. I may be expressing to you what i think of you but i have not lowered myself to your juvenile level and take a quote from you and slander it here on the boards.

That's not quite what you said but let's not nitpick.


people may not agree with me and my views and misinterpret what i am saying but i think that even at that they can ALL agree that your last little post was Just as equally as stupid if not more than they think my posts are in thi
You need to settle down.



settle down? Did I send you angry PM's? Am I the one freaking out because I got called out on my opinion that women are weak?


Relax, TWS. A little recreational slander can't possibly make you look any worse in this thread.

:D :D

[The Willow Sword]

i dont mind that type of recreational slander. ;)

look the whole point of this is that i think women should not subject themselves to that kind of brutality(boxing matches ufc related events and the like)
it doesnt mean i think women are weaker or shoudl not be in martial arts for self defense and fitness.
enuff said,,,,,,,,,Peace,,,TWS


and actually in my sig it is a quote taken from a carlos castenada book.

[Ming Yue]

then maybe you shouldn't attribute it to yourself by putting your initials after it.

[David Jamieson]

willow is a misogynist apparently and a male chauvinist pig! Yayyyy! The tradition continues!

you are trapped in the sugar and spice and everything nice fairy tale vs the whales and snails and puppy dog tails fairy tale.

You likely fear strong and dominating women who have better education than you and possibly are in a position to be your boss in the workplace.

You likely also date women who are not a challenge to you because you are repulsed by the idea of a woman being smarter than you or more correct than you.
You would prefer a bimbo and that is your image of how woman should be.

If you saw a particularly physically strong woman at a gym you would not go near her and would treat her like a freak show, because to you, she is not a person, she is a personal threat to your dominance.

It is your type of personality that in a co-ed gym would go up to a heavy bag that a woman was working on and hit it as hard as you could in some assertion of your dominance over her.

I am only surmising this from the content of your own posts.

Don't worry though Willow, there are a great many men out there who share the exact same view. You are a product of your upbringing and your environment, but luckily and thankfully, this antiquated way of dinosaur thinking is going the way of the dodo bird.

[The Willow Sword]

Ming,,,actually it is an adaptation on the teachings in the books,,so essentially it is my quote,,but not an original one.
sorry that offends you to :rolleyes:


hey david? would you ever fight a woman in a sanctioned boxing match? or in a ufc match? ;)

Peace,,TWS

[David Jamieson]

hey david? would you ever fight a woman in a sanctioned boxing match? or in a ufc match?

yes I would. Knowing that she would have trained as hard to be there as I have.
Why do you ask?

[FatherDog]

Relax, TWS. A little recreational slander can't possibly make you look any worse in this thread.

Libe1. This is in print. :D

[Ming Yue]

good point, but you should have heard what I was saying about him as I typed that.

:D

[Losttrak]

Bimbos are great fun. Don't knock em.