WT Chisao Tournament vids

[Buddha_Fist]

Here we go:

http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/german/videos/video_lt_2004.html

[Wong]

The know little bit Judo. To mach pusing and shovin.
"recieve what comes follow what retreats" I saw
on website. Not god translation but ideaq is good.

[Gangsterfist]

Wong,

My sifu always says, recieve what comes in, and when it leaves escort it out. Is that a better translation?

Could you perhaps explain a bit more about exactly what thats suppose to translate to? My cantonese is pretty much non existant.

[Gangsterfist]

That chi sao looks extremely technique based, and it also looks more like sparring, which is why chi sao competition is kind of bad IMHO.

[Wong]

My english is not god. it is more accept energy than receive.
You ask some who is god in Cantonese and English. is better.

[Gangsterfist]

thanks wong.

I also heard its not upons loss of contact rush in, its more like upon loss of contact flow in, and towards the center?

Its funny how somethings are just lost in translations.

[Wong]

Free hand go forward. Not only center
All is my think I not always god.
More Chinese learn English and more
English learn Chinese we have good
transaltion in future.

[CFT]

These idioms are highly open to interpretation, even in the original Chinese. I think when you translate to another language it forces you to think more about the meaning.

"Loy lau hui sung" is typically translated as "receive what comes, esort what leaves". "Loy" means come/arrive. "Lau" is actually to detain. "Hui" means to leave/go away. And "sung" is escort. So you can see that a literal translation can have a subtly different meaning, but IMO still carries the idea of sticking whatever the motion of the opponent.

"Lut sao tsik chung". "Lut" means to lose contact. "Sao" is the hand/arm. "Tsik" means straight. "Chung" means to rush. So it can mean that upon loss of arm contact, rush straight forward.

I think the idioms are just pointers to training concepts or even fight strategies, but you still have to interpret them on a personal level.

[Ernie]

bare feet and kung fu slippers N"uff said :cool:

excuse me would you care to dance , why yes , please may i hold your fook sau , why yes, now follow my lead :eek:

[Gangsterfist]

bare feet and kung fu slippers N"uff said :cool:

excuse me would you care to dance , why yes , please my i hold your fook sau , why yes, now follow my lead :eek:


Oh man I almsot spit my coke across the monitor, luckily I had just stopped drinking it as I read your post :eek: :cool:

[Tom Kagan]

bare feet and kung fu slippers N"uff said :cool:

excuse me would you care to dance , why yes , please my i hold your fook sau , why yes, now follow my lead :eek:


To be fair, I am reasonably sure that bare feet or slippers (or probably standard wrestling shoes) was required by the rules in order to protect the mat. While foregoing the mat may have allowed a greater selection of footwear, the rules would probably have limited the throw attempts instead.

I'll give them big Kudos for stepping up and trying. Other than that, it's not really my bag to comment on the contents of the video right now.

Still, I'd be curious to learn more about what the competitors think they've gained from this encounter in regards to where they are at in their training - over and above the alternative of just getting together with the other guys and training and/or banging under less forced/contrived rules. Of course, my curiousity presumes the contest in the video and/or my alternative would be for the competitors' personal benefit and not someone else's. ;)

[Ernie]

Oh man I almsot spit my coke across the monitor, luckily I had just stopped drinking it as I read your post :eek: :cool:


that was my chi reaching out to zap you :D


tom - 3 words sum up the question , the answer and the problem [ chi sau comp ]

know i know i left those ball room dance shoes around here somewhere ;)

[Kevin Bell]

Ernie,

I just got in heavy night, and am sat here sweating tired and busted up :D :D :D

Im sure somewhere you got some british in there somewhere

Classic mate, post of the month

[Matrix]

if you want to see good chi sao, then go HERE (http://www.wccoach.com/wingchuntraining/freestyle.mov) :cool:

[Ernie]

if you want to see good chi sao, then go HERE (http://www.wccoach.com/wingchuntraining/freestyle.mov) :cool:

HA HA Hey leave me out of it ;)

but not really great on that clip either i lost my hip a few times and tended to favor my right since my left is in pain all the time ,
but i really liked the vibe and energy of it , just wing chun guys having fun with intensity yet still controlled .

that's just a glimpse into training at Gary's on any given night :D

but i do hope you enjoyed it for what it was ;)

[Matrix]

but not really great on that clip either i lost my hip a few times and tended to favor my right since my left is in pain all the time ,
but i really liked the vibe and energy of it , just wing chun guys having fun with intensity yet still controlled .Ernie,
So you're not perfect. That's comforting to know. ;)
Sorry to bring your name into a thread about Chi Sao Competitions, however I thought folks might like to see a good example of chi sao (flaws and all) so that they don't go away thinking it's some sort of pathetic shoving match...

[Ernie]

Ernie,
So you're not perfect. That's comforting to know. ;)
Sorry to bring your name into a thread about Chi Sao Competitions, however I thought folks might like to see a good example of chi sao (flaws and all) so that they don't go away thinking it's some sort of pathetic shoving match...

Perfect man i'm a long way from there :D
but thank you and yes i feel the same way things should be cultivated , body engine, short explosive yet interruptable power , feeling during the chaos
and understanding if your doing just rolling shapes for the sake of rolling is ...well,,,,,,, pointless :confused:

and trying to label a drill a competition is degrading ,

i can hear the people now --- ah there he goes reaching for that quan sau , wait hold on don't forget fook sau king has tons of knock outs with his double pak sau . i remember back in the real days before they out lawed the deadly finger thrust , oh how things have changed -------------- :(

now come on guys don't forget the point doesn't count unless you KKKKEEEYYAAAAA

[Matrix]

....yes i feel the same way things should be cultivated , body engine, short explosive yet interruptable power , feeling during the chaos
and understanding if your doing just rolling shapes for the sake of rolling is ...well,,,,,,, pointless :confused:
Ernie,
I think things got lost in translation somewhere along the way. Rolling is not chi sao, and yes the idea of a chi sao competition seems off to me. However, some like it; not that there's anything wrong with that......
It just seems to be counter-productive to me.


.... don't forget the point doesn't count unless you KKKKEEEYYAAAAA Tag, you're it !! ... :rolleyes:

[Ernie]

Ernie,

Tag, you're it !! ... :rolleyes:

OWWW you hit my eye :p

no i hear you bro , i was just rambling ;)

people should do what makes them happy :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm of the opinion that chi sao competitions are worse than just a waste of time - they provide a very false sense of reality - EVEN IF THE TWO GUYS ARE GOOD...

because nobody fights like that.

Chi sao is a drill...but that's all it is.

[Neo]

I'm of the opinion that chi sao competitions are worse than just a waste of time - they provide a very false sense of reality - EVEN IF THE TWO GUYS ARE GOOD...
because nobody fights like that.

Chi sao is a drill...but that's all it is.

I'm sure that they realise this, just as judokas, BJJers, karatekas and taekwondo-ists (!) know that about their sparring...they do don't they? Hey, has anyone told them....? :p

last match was the best, guy in the red looks like sifu Yan Yiu Wing so should have been good.

[TomasWTUK]

Victor, Ernie, Bill - you are all correct!

As a WT man, I honestly saw little to no quality WT. I am gutted that WT went this route.

Chi Sao is just a lab for training sensitivity, structure and positioning. The clip just looked like a mash.

When my training partners and I engage in CS, it is a mutual learning thing - not a points scoring match. When we spar, then we glove up and spar but we don't pretend this is CS or anything else.

Laters,

T

[mortal]

The main sweep they were trying was the foot behind the leg. The oldest trick in the book. It was like that was the only sweep they knew. And many times they both went down.

I think overall it looked like fun.

[IRONMONK]

personally i thing a full contact fighting tournament would have been much better.
It would develop fighters!!!

BTW even though chi sao is not fighting dont u think its still necessary to train it against resistance(competitively) to develop sensitivity based on performance?

[t_niehoff]

Chi sao does not "develop sensitivity" -- we already have "sensitivity" (can feel what is going on). How can someone use a drill to develop various aspects if they don't know what those aspects are? And how we do (focus) the drill will develop different things. Learning ballroom dance requires we use "sensitivity" too (to follow your partner's movements) but is that the same aspects we are trying to develop with our chi sao?

[TomasWTUK]

Chi sao does not "develop sensitivity" -- we already have "sensitivity" (can feel what is going on).

Hi Terence,

I have to disagree with you. WT chi sao does hone sensitivity to pressures created by your opponents attacking limbs.

If once considers dan chi sao (for simplicity), then the transition from Player A: fook; Player B: tan to Player A: punch or fook; Player B: bong sao is caused by the energy of the fook pressing the tan sao across the body. The tan roles to bong to rid the arm of the incurring energy right?

If one plays dan chi sao with a beginner, then they can often require a great deal of pressure to be “coaxed” (for want of a better word) to make the tan to bong transition to neutralise the force.

With an experienced player, a very light pressure will produce the formation of bong and thus the experienced player will not “hold” the opponents force, but more easily get rid of it. The experienced player is more sensitive to the changes and thus reacts more quickly/efficiently.

In view of the fact that the experienced player can respond accurately to less and less force, then surely this is because he has heightened sensitivity to his opponents changes of force and can react accordingly; the production of experience/training etc.

Thoughts?

T

[IRONMONK]

we already have sensitivity but chi sao develops a level of sensitivity to react to pressure in a wing chun way i.e tactile reflexes without thought.Chi sao develops other things like relaxation forward pressure etc and the idea of forward/stick/yield/follow concept

so what is ur opinion on what chi sao develops?

[Gangsterfist]

chi sao is not a competition, its a cooperative drill. Its a training tool. You give a little, you recieve a little. The idea is to feel your opponet, and do not use force or external strength. Instead you use natural strength from the structure.

Those clips were sparring, and if you chi sao like that you are missing the whole point IMO, and if you chi sao like that, you should be sparring anyways. That is because chi sao is not sparring. I spar, and I do chi sao, they are two seperate things and should not be combined.

Do you fight with rolling chi sao motions? NO

When you go in towards an opponet do you do it with double fook saos, or tan bong sao? NO

chi sao helps develope attributes, its a training tool. It helps build an extra level of sensitivity, it helps be action skills (not reaction, reactions take too long, instead you learn to act upon the situation), it helps develope structure. When you punch over someone's bong sao in chi sao its considered a cheap shot IMO. That is because nobody really fights like that, and you are not grasping the point of feeling out your opponet.

Just my opinion though, so take what you will from it.

[Ernie]

chi sau can cause blindness
quick everyone stop doing it !!!

[IRONMONK]

i think ur talking about the wrong type of sticky hands

[jonp]

hehehehehe

[Matrix]

Chi sao does not "develop sensitivity" -- we already have "sensitivity" (can feel what is going on). Why do strength training? We already have "strength".
Why do aerobic training? We can already breath.
Why swim? You're already "all wet". :p

[Matrix]

chi sau can cause blindness
quick everyone stop doing it !!! I see dead people. :eek: