clever power

[fatcloud]

i see this as a very advanced skill in application to throwing grabbing or wrestling techniques. feeling your opponents subtle weight changes to the front back or sides will give you a better sense in which to attack him to throw his balance off or break his foundation, then apply another devastating attack when he is most vulnerable.

[red5angel]

WTF is clever power?

Why do I get this picture of Wally and the Beaver in tights and capes?

[Merryprankster]

i see this as a very advanced skill in application to throwing grabbing or wrestling techniques. feeling your opponents subtle weight changes to the front back or sides will give you a better sense in which to attack him to throw his balance off or break his foundation, then apply another devastating attack when he is most vulnerable.

You just described grappling 101.

[fatcloud]

a judo foot trip would be a good example.

[Fu-Pow]

Well gosh, it sounds a lot like Taiji Quan but I'm pretty sure that Taiji is only good for health and digestion. :p

[red5angel]

Well gosh, it sounds a lot like Taiji Quan but I'm pretty sure that Taiji is only good for health and digestion. :p


don't forget building and harvesting qi

[Merryprankster]

Welcome back spiraler.

[David Jamieson]

I dunno, a shrug is a lot of movement but when done at speed, it's effective in the clinch regardless of who's clinching you.

Bump and Go can take more effort especially if the guy clinching you has good hooks and is strong.

And head peels, well that's just mechanics.

come to think of it, if you got the mechanical advantage, physics dictates that it doesn't matter if the guy can read you.

And even if they can read you, they have to physically react with the correct counter.

Man, I hate the mystical bull.sh.it terms that are used with martial arts sometimes. I am seriously leaning towards abandoning them altogether, but there are a few I still don't quite have the words for...but once I do, once I do. :D

[red5angel]

Kung Lek, do you actually know what "clever power" is? I have no idea wtf he is talking about using that name.

[Judge Pen]

I always referred to that as "listening" not "cleaver power." I've never heard that term.

lol at Fu Pow.

[David Jamieson]

red-

judging from what i read in his post, he's talking about reading your opponent or as pen put it "listening energy".

It is harder to read someone who knows how to not telegraph their motions, it is easier to read someone who does telegraph or who faulters in a motion.

If ya can't free flow, you are easier to read seems to be a rule of thumb.

I think "clever power" is just some term to describe these same attributes and I fully agree that to much dilution through language makes concepts even harder to understand.

Speak to your demograph and in context to martial arts, physical demonstration is of high priority and importance in gaining understanding.

[red5angel]

judge's reference to listening brought it home for me. I understand the concepts he speaking of but had never heard it called clever or cleaver.

[Royal Dragon]

Clever little beaver, aint he?

[SevenStar]

"listening", as MP said, is basic grappling. This goes back to what I've been saying - alot of the "energies" and theories in CMA are in sport styles as well, but we don't define them - it's just part of good technique.

[Salacious Crumb]

Man, I hate the mystical bull.sh.it terms that are used with martial arts sometimes. I am seriously leaning towards abandoning them altogether, but there are a few I still don't quite have the words for...but once I do, once I do. :D
It's not mystical mumbo-jumbo; it's just analogy. Once you understand that terms in CMA are just analogies for real-world techniques, you can get past all the hocus pocus and focus on developing some skill. You can call it "Chase the Goose" or "Hip Throw." Doesn't matter. You still get tossed on your head.

[SevenStar]

Listen to alot of CMA speak - they speak of various energies as if they are something that is special and unique to CMA. I think kung lek fa jinged the correct on that one.

[Fu-Pow]

Listen to alot of CMA speak - they speak of various energies as if they are something that is special and unique to CMA. I think kung lek fa jinged the correct on that one.

Hmmmm.....well.....first of all....who are THEY?

Secondly, it is CHINESE Martial Arts therefore they tend to use CHINESE terms..... :confused: :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:

[David Jamieson]

actually, to use chinese terms is to say things like:

this is Kung Fu
Kungfu = "skill acquired over time through effort"

or that is fa jin
fa jin = power issuance

etc etc. Chinese language and hocus pocus terminology are two different things in a lot of respects.

it used to be that to hide stuff from the uninitiated, these terms would be used to obscure what was taught.

example: monkey steals a peach
modern term, palm slam his nuts.

I think there is less room for the obscure terminology these days and it only serves to make the art less accessible.

besides, it's in the hands , you either can do it, or you cannot do it.

people who spend too much time relying on mysticism, for the most part do not have the real deal in my opinion.

It's one thing to hold up a tradition, it's another thing to attempt to deceive or obfuscate the facts.

If you don't want stuff about your martial art know then it is as simple as not revealing yourself at all.

that is realism and if nothing else, martial art should be realistic and fairy tales be da.mned.

thank you
the end

[Salacious Crumb]

actually, to use chinese terms is to say things like:

this is Kung Fu
Kungfu = "skill acquired over time through effort"

or that is fa jin
fa jin = power issuance

etc etc. Chinese language and hocus pocus terminology are two different things in a lot of respects.

it used to be that to hide stuff from the uninitiated, these terms would be used to obscure what was taught.

example: monkey steals a peach
modern term, palm slam his nuts.
Actually, I think that has a lot more to do with Chinese language patterns in general, and the fact the most people were illiterate. The poems, much like Shakespeare's plays, were used as memory devices. I guess you could argue that CMA Masters, like Shakespeare, were being intentionally obtuse, but I would argue that was not their main intent. Afterall, what we find awkward or confusing was well known to Shakespeare's audience. They got his jokes. I imagine to an 11th Century rice farmer, "Monkey Steals the Peach" made perfect sense.

[ewallace]

If this thread was called "Cleaver Power" Spiraler's new personality probably would not have been banned. But he was never that bright to begin with.

[Waidan]

The Chinese terminology for various techniques and theories can be very illustrative, imo. In some cases that I'm familiar with, the "mystical" term says a lot about the intent, timing, and other details of the movement. The Chinese simply used examples from their environment to describe their techniques.

I don't know that modern (western) fighting terminology is any more useful or descriptive. It is less kungfooy, however, which is pretty hip today. I don't know exactly what a Rubber Guard is, but I'm sure it would tap me out somehow.

[Yum Cha]

"listening" power, or even sensitivity is a higher level skill in some arts, but it is "wrestling 101" for grapplers. I think that's a pretty fair cop. But its not exactly the same thing.

When it comes to striking, I think the bridging styles have a lot more of this skill, because thats what happens when you bridge, it becomes a bit of a grapple of sorts, and with hands on, it gives the feedback. Its a skill you develop, its not a have or have not situation.

If you don't have at least lingering contact, you'll not develop the skill. The question is, once you learn it, what can you do with it. It works quite well with short power, because speed and reflex is what it boils down to.

As for terminiolgy - get real. To ascribe the same nuance of English to Chinese is folly. Is the "Statue of Liberty" play in Football, the "green-eyed monster" of jealousy or the "Banana Split", "Cradle" or "Crab" in wrestling any different? Let me introduce you to the metaphore. If you think its a wank, its probably due to something you bring to the party, or the result of some wanker pulling your "meat and two veggies". I "chi blast" in your general direction.

Clever skill, I'd call that strategy. Listening/sensitivity skill, I'd call that trained reflex.

Regardless of what he calls it, kudos to Fatty for discovering it, it shows he's thinking, and that he already has some of it in his hands.

[Fu-Pow]

it used to be that to hide stuff from the uninitiated, these terms would be used to obscure what was taught.

example: monkey steals a peach
modern term, palm slam his nuts.

I think there is less room for the obscure terminology these days and it only serves to make the art less accessible.


The Chinese terminology for various techniques and theories can be very illustrative, imo. In some cases that I'm familiar with, the "mystical" term says a lot about the intent, timing, and other details of the movement. The Chinese simply used examples from their environment to describe their techniques.



Waidan is correct, Kung Lek is wrong.

How could the uniniated ever even learn the names of the techniques? It just doesn't make any sense.

In Choy Lay Fut we use terms like Gwa Chui, Saau Chui, Chaap Chui, Faan Jong, etc.

If I translated them literally they would make no sense Gwa Chui = Hang Up Strike , Chaap Chui= Stick Strike, Faan Jong= Turn Over Smash.

But the terms are descriptive of the technique being used and IF YOU SPEAK CHINESE then they are terms that are used in every day vernacular and so they create an image in your head that gives you an idea of the concept.

Should we abandon Chinese terms to make the art more accessible? Should we all emulate Shaolin-Do?..... I mean those people seem to have lost ALL of the Chinese flavor of their art.

If you want to learn CMA (especially so that you can teach it) then you're going to have to at least learn some rudimentary Chinese.

The culture is part of the art and if you don't want to learn it then you're just doing Chop Suey Fu.

:mad: :eek: :D

[omarthefish]

"clever" power strikes me as one of those terms that is just a poor translation creating a "special" idea. The Chinese literature is filled with essays talking about the importance or using "insert term here" rather than "brute force". ie. "cleverl" power just means whatever the opposite of brute force is. I can only guess at what the original was but for instance, there is a character "ling" that can mean alternately, "ghost/spirit", smart, or pehaps even more pertinantky, agile depending on context.

"ling" as "agile use of force" being tranlsated as "clever (ie smart) use of force" = "clever power"?

And Waidan made some pretty good points regarding terminoligy.

English terminology is every bit as mystical to the unititiated or someone from a different culture. Add to "rubber guard" the ****zer, rope-a-dope, suplex, fireman's carrry, haymaker, footbal tackle, grapevine, twister, triangle, north-south, paper cutter, chicken wing etc.

Not a one of them is descriptive outside of the cultural context and several have allusions to nature or commonplace items in American life.

[omarthefish]

holy moly, w h i z got sensored. lol

[David Jamieson]

Hey, in a traditional Chinese martial arts setting, with a traditional Chinese martial arts teacher who can define the traditional phraseology and the terminology I'm all for the cultural bridge and the maintenance of tradition.

But take a look around at all the gwai lo throwing terms out all over the place merely as what can be construed as some form of attempt at proof of their own autheticity.

In the end, yer kungfu is in you.

I am personally more comfortable with palpable terms that are easily absorbed and easily understood.

Besides, there's tons of crossover, tain't no big thing, I'm just talking about myself in relation to these terminologies. There is no wrong or right in this. I'm saying I lean away from their usage and use more contemporary terms. The more you get caught up in the cerebral = the less time you get in on the doing of what's important about kungfu. get the idea, get it into you, practice it til you internalize it and move on.

cheerios!

[SPJ]

Clever power, smart power or fine power is a relative term to crude, unrefined power as Omar pointed out.

Qiao Li or 巧力.

In general, not opposing, no retardation in relaying, more efficency, only as needed in amplitude and direction etc.

Yes, this may mean different things in different styles.

In short, to use the power in a smart way is Qiao Li.

The mystical part would be that how to do it and how to practice to gain the skills to do it in your style.

[Becca]

... Or just focus on the hockus pockus. Might find a new way to hoax us. Or you can poke us with your focus. That would make quite the ruckus about all that hockus pockus focus....

















Sorry.. just couldn't resist myself... :D

[FuXnDajenariht]

........... :D

[SPJ]

Some examples of smartness or cleverness in different schools.

1. Shaolin long boxing. use your left upper arm to move upward and outward close or above your head and punch the opponent's chest or face with your right fist. 架打冲拳. there is a bigger movement of the left arm.

2. Ba Ji Quan: One inch intercept. One inch silk reeling or Chan. You only to need to move an inch to intercept or Chan the opponent. 寸截寸拿.

You close your distance by your steps. Your hand moves only need to move an inch to confine or neutralize the opponent. And not pushing the opponent punching forearm too far out, just an inch away from your vital area.

If someone punches your face, your raise your left forearm to contact. But you do not move your forearm all the way out as in many other styles and 1. You move an inch. you move your posture to be close by steps. Your right hand may push his abdomen or ribside 腋.

In 1, you rotate your forearm a bit to contact. You introduce an outward, upward force to divert the opponent's linear rear to front force upward and outward away from your vital area, head, chest and abdomen.

In 2, you leave the opponent's force mostly intact, you move the opponent's forearm an inch and changing your steps and posture to be away from harm. Your defending hand contacts his forearm and moves an inch. You also forward your right hand to attack.

I may mention more about the pros and cons with the 2 with pages of discussions.

But anyway, this is why and how they are smart or clever in each own way.

One uses to open wide the opponent's inside for counter attack. The other moves to be close. Give up the distance to be close. The closer you are, the more powerful your Ba Ji techniques.

:D

[SPJ]

7 star is correct.

There are over 100 categories and names of Jing or power or kinetic energy in each school.

The reason is not that to create and confuse.

It is for better understanding and practice to master the methods of Jing neutralization and issuing.

For example, in Tai Ji you use 5 fingers to pull down or Cai. In mantis, you focus on thumb and pinkie to pull or hook, you also rotate your forearm and wrist.

In Tai Ji, you move your whole body to pull down or Cai. There is a sinking Jing or Cheng Jing meaning your hip and Dan Tian or center of gravity is lowered. It has to be sudden like to pluck a flower or a feather off a bird.

In mantis hook or Gou, there is only a local sprial and a little downward pressure with forearm. Gou Lo Cai. In mantis Cai, you also use five fingers, but usually you move your forearm toward you. There is only some downward pressure.

Yes, in general Cai is downward. But it can also mean from outward inward.

as you may see, if you do not define or categorize the various directional and focusing aspects of a Jing in any style.

It will be impossible to communicate or practice to learn.

They are not fancy or mystical words. They are just tools for communication, understanding and practicing.

Agreed. They are not unique in CMA alone.

:)

[Becca]

........... :D
:p
Was funnier before the dude deleted his post... I wasn't trying to poke fun at him. It was just the way he phrased what he was saying about how some schools "focus on the hockus pockus." I am a big fan of Dr. Sues. What can I say... :o

[BM2]

I wish this thread would die. Everytime I see it, I think at first it says "Clevage Power."

[omarthefish]

Clever power, smart power or fine power is a relative term to crude, unrefined power as Omar pointed out.

Qiao Li or 巧力.



Thanks for the original term. Like I said, I was just guessing at the Chiense there. I missed that one. Usually I am pretty good at that game.