Choke

[WingChun_4_Life]

Does anyone know what kind of Yoga and meditation exercises Rickson Gracie is doing in the doc. ‘Choke’ ? Has anyone tried these exercises?

[anerlich]

Don't know about the yoga or meditation per se, but the exercise on the beach are Ginastica Natural, a form of yoga based on animal movements.

A Wing Chun forum probably isn't the best place to ask, Try some BJJ forums, look up www.rickson.com, google, etc....

[Nick Forrer]

There is a home video recording of Rickson doing his morning workout. I dont know if its commercially available but its on a few FTP networks I think (e.g. emule).

Many of the excercises are Quite JJ specific e.g. rolling, bridging, creeping etc. But as an overall body workout its pretty good. I just forget the sequence when I try and copy it since he moves from one thing to another so quickly and fluidly.

[Ultimatewingchun]

While we're on the subject of Rickson Gracie, and since I know very little about him...maybe someone who does can answer a question for me.

First of all, I've downloaded a video from somewhere that shows highlights of some of his NHB fights, and the guy looks like an excellent fighter - definitely top shelf.

But why is it that he's never fought anybody who's ANYBODY ?

And I understand that he's now about 39-40 years old (?)...so he's probably near the end (if he's not there already) of his NHB fighting career.

What's been his story?

[anerlich]

Rickson has his detractors for this alleged reason.

Suffice to say that he did win Vale Tudo 94 and 95, several matches in Pride, tons of matches in Brazil, etc, etc. also, his family, among whom are several who have competed in many more high profile events, say he is by far the best of them. Everyone I've ever seen interviewed that has actually trained with the guy is in awe of his ability.

"The Gracie Way" is well worth reading for anyone interested in the Gracie family's careers, though it is a bit OTT in some places, e.g. none of them come out and say, "Yep, Sakuraba was the better fighter on the day."

A Rickson/Saku match would have been sensational when both were at the top of their form. A great pity this is unlikely to ever happen.

There's a great clip out of Rickson and Royler doing a demo at Pride, with gi. You can get it from subfighter.com, IIRC.

[Merryprankster]

The short answer is age, as Anerlich pointed out. Rickson's prime would have been in the mid 80's. The first UFC was some years later, and according to the information floating around, Rorian thought Royce's unimposing physique would make a better impact.

He's older than 40, AFAIK. Rickson was 29 in 1989, so that makes him 45-46, right? He certainly looks about that old (saw him recently). Can't seem to do math right now. Royce, I think is around 38 or so.

Both are super nice guys from my limited interaction with them. Always pleasant, willing to talk and take pictures, etc.

I think the best way to approach Rickson is to allow him to be what he was - a legend in his own time. The guy had family, a life, work, etc by the time MMA really took off. I have a hard enough time balancing my amateur competition schedule with my life, my work, my wife. Randy and others prove you can fight in your forties, but if you don't want to, why? And there is a big difference between just over 40, and closing in on 50.

Rickson dabbled a bit, took some insanely high paydays, then got back to living. Whether or not he would be a world-class fighter, I don't know. But the best BJJ guys in the world admit to having been simply tooled by him on the mat. I don't have first hand information on that, just hearsay from some of the BJJ blackbelts (non-gracie affiliated) that I have encountered.

It's like Royce. I really don't think Royce could beat the best "A" fighters of today. But if we just allow him his rightful place as a pioneer, then we're doing the right thing.

It happens in all sports. People make comparisons that just can't go anywhere.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good posts, guys...I also read on the Underground forum that Sakuraba once challenged Rickson but Rickson wouldn't accept...but since there's so much trolling going on on that forum (as well as some really good threads) - I don't know whether it's true or not about Sak and Rickson.

What do you guys know about it?

[Merryprankster]

I believe that Rickson refused to fight Sak because Sak had "No Aura."

I have no idea what this means. I'd rather just hear a "Nah, don't feel like it."

But you know what? Everybody says stuff that's dumb. The problem is that when you are mildly famous, it comes back to haunt you :D

[t_niehoff]

Whenever I hear things like "he fought nobody", I wonder -- he fought Pride (and won) a couple of times. How many can say that? He won every tournament he ever entered from blue onward (except one I believe). He fought countless challenge fights, including some against top-notch luvre livre fighters (like Zulu, who outweighed him by 70 lbs.). And everyone that has rolled with him, from his family (that includes a few good people) to mundail champions, to Abu Dhabi champions, etc. have all come away with the same opinion of his skills.

Why doesn't he continue to fight? I think Royce provided the answer when he talked about his training -- that it takes him 9 months of quality training to get into top-notch, world-class fighting shape. As you get older, you lose that fire and it's more difficult to train at that level. And the Gracies are well-represented by other family members (who weren't fighting at that level when Rickson was representing the family).

[FooFighter]

Does anyone know what kind of Yoga and meditation exercises Rickson Gracie is doing in the doc. ‘Choke’ ? Has anyone tried these exercises?

I learned breathing exercises from numerous of instructors. It is funny that some people forget to train their breathe. Sometimes the weak link in a technical skill may come from improper breathing and not so much in a strength deficit. There is a whole science to breathing and there are many different theories on optimal breathing both in the west and in the east. I would encourage that you go search out this science and make good use of its methodologies. I will start you off by checking out an interesting Russian breathing method called Frolov Breathing: www.intellectbreathing.com. I own this device and read the book. I have used it personally and trained my certain clients using this device. Great stuff!

If you are interested in doing what Rickson did in "Choke" then I would recommend finding a good yoga instructor and focus on "pramayama". I learned pranayama yoga from a legendary yogi named Dharma Mittra in NYC and refined by breathing skills through studying with Coach Scott Sonnon. Just this weekend I was in Bellingham, Wa studying with him and got some finer points in my breathing practices. I hope this helps.

Bao Tran

[reneritchie]

MP just hit the correct with a waterbottle. He had the combination of skill and charisma, and the timing on the rise of grappling in North Am, to fill the 'legend' spot. Every endeavor has one or two because every endeavor NEEDS them. Part of the human experience.

WRT Rickson's career, it's probably certain that Rickson's son, Rockson (you can see him in Choke) dying in a motorcycle accident, changed him, his priorities, and his interest level.

Here's part of an interesting article from David Camarillo (Ralph Gracie black belt and potential US Olympic Judo team member), originally posted on http://www.onthemat.com/

Rickson Gracie Stands Alone

... Training with Rickson is like trying to move a house. What
he lacks in size he overwhelmingly compensates in technique and
pressure. From the moment I engaged my guard, till the time I was
tapping, I felt as if there was nothing I could have done to better my
situation. His basic techniques nullified my game almost immediately.
His control of my movement discouraged my game to the point of
nullification. I attacked with a barrage of arm locks and triangles that
fell short in his ability to dictate the training session.

The way Rickson dealt with my flexibility, by eliminating my movement
was incredible. This inability to move was key in shutting down my game.
Rickson is a savage! His abilities of control, pressure, and the
understanding of your opponents’ abilities and how to annihilate their
attacks impressed me and brings questions to my understanding of Jiu
Jitsu.

What was even more amazing than his outstanding display of technique,
was his open attitude towards me being there. The feeling I felt as I
entered his academy was of respect and openness. I felt welcome in a
somewhat foreign place. It was soon after my arrival that I experienced
a sense of relaxation and was able to train at ease.

All who have ever benefited from the art of Jiu Jitsu owe homage to such
a man. For he has created, beyond the extents of great Jiu Jitsu, a
system that anyone can participate in. He has devoted his whole life to
his art and those students that show the respect and consideration for
each other in their search for security in self-defense.

So to all the non-believers, I can only try to persuade you to eliminate
all doubt and open your mind to Rickson Gracie. His teachings are like
his will, without determent. His face is full of passion and honor, his
strength resides in his character, and his name transcends beyond all
who make feeble attempts at attacking a Jiu Jitsu Legend.

David Camarillo

[Ultimatewingchun]

The following is from one of two books I recently bought on Zen. It is entitled THE MIRACLE OF MINDFULNESS, by Thich Nhat Hanh...and is described as "A Zen Master's Method of Meditation, Concentration, and Relaxation." The author is from Vietnam.

Very powerful stuff, but takes rigorous and consistent practice.


"In a Buddhist monastery, everyone learns to use breath as a tool to stop mental dispersion and to build up concentration power. Concentration power is the strength which comes from practicing mindfulness. It is the concentration which can help one obtain the Great Awakening.

When a worker takes hold of his own breath, he has already become awakened. In order to maintain mindfulness throughout a long period, we must continue to watch our breath.

It is autumn here and the golden leaves falling one by one are truly beautiful. Taking a 10-minute walk in the woods, watching my breath and maintaining mindfulness, I feel refreshed and restored. Like that, I can really enter into a communion with each leaf.

Of course, walking alone on a country path, it is easier to maintain mindfulness. If there's a friend by your side, not talking but also watching his breath, then you can continue to maintain mindfulness without difficulty. But if the friend at your side begins to talk, it becomes a little more difficult.

If, in your mind, you think, 'I wish this fellow would quit talking, so I could concentrate,' you have already lost your mindfulness. But if you think, instead, 'If he wishes to talk, I will answer, but I will continue in mindfulness, aware of the fact that we are walking along this path together, aware of what we say, I can continue to watch my breath as well.'

If you can give rise to that thought, you will be continuing in mindfulness. It is harder to practice in such situations than when you are alone, but if you continue to practice nonetheless, you will develop the ability to maintain much greater concentration.

There is a line from a Vietnamese folk song that says: 'Hardest of all is to practice the Way at home, second in the crowd, and third in the pagoda.' It is only in an active and demanding situation that mindful-ness really becomes a challenge!

Counting one's breath and following one's breath:

In the meditation sessions I recently began for non-Vietnamese, I usually suggest various methods that I myself have tried, methods that are quite simple. I suggest to beginners the method of 'Following the length of the breath.' The student lies, back down, on the floor. Then I invite all of the participants to gather around so I can show them a few simple points:

1) Although inhaling and exhaling are the work of the lungs, and take place in the chest area, the stomach area also plays a role. The stomach rises with the filling of the lungs. At the beginning of the breath the stomach begins to push out. But after inhaling about two-thirds of the breath, it starts to lower again.

2) Why? Between your chest and stomach there is a muscular membrane, the diaphragm. When you breathe in correctly the air fills the lower part of the lungs first, before the upper lungs fill with air, the diaphragm pushes down on the stomach, causing the stomach to rise. When you have filled your upper lungs with air, the chest pushes out and causes the stomach to lower again.

3) That is why, in former times, people spoke of the breath as originating at the navel and terminating at the nostrils.


For beginners, lying down to practice breathing is very helpful. The important thing is to guard against making too much of an effort: too great an effort can be dangerous for the lungs, especially when the lungs are weak from many years of incorrect breathing.

In the beginning, the practitioner should lie on his or her back on a thin mat or blanket, the two arms loosely at the sides. Don't prop your head on a pillow. Focus your attention on your exhalation and watch how long it is. Measure it slowly by counting in your mind: 1, 2, 3. . . After several times, you will know the 'length' of your breath: Perhaps it is 5. Now try to extend the exhalation for one more count (or 2) so that the exhalation's length becomes 6 or 7. Begin to exhale counting from 1 to 5. When you reach 5, rather than immediately inhaling as before, try to extend the exhalation to 6 or 7.

This way you will empty your lungs of more air. When you have finished exhaling, pause for an instant to let your lungs take in fresh air on their own. Let them take in just as much air as they want without making any effort. The inhalation will normally be 'shorter' than the exhalation. Keep a steady count in your mind to measure the length of both. Practice several weeks like this, remaining mindful of all your exhalations and inhalations while lying down. (If you have a clock with a loud tick you can use it to help you keep track of the length of your inhalation and exhalation.)

Continue to measure your breath while walking, sitting, standing, and especially whenever you are outdoors. While walking, you might use your steps to measure your breath. After a month or so, the difference between the length of your exhalation and inhalation will lessen, gradually evening out until they are of equal measure. If the length of your exhalation is 6, the inhalation will also be 6.

If you feel at all tired while practicing, stop at once. But even if you do not feel tired, don't prolong the practice of long, equal breaths beyond short periods of time—10 to 20 breaths are enough. The moment you feel the least fatigue, return your breathing to normal. Fatigue is an excellent mechanism of our bodies and the best advisor as to whether one should rest or continue."

..........................................

The above may sound like very simple, rudimentary breathing skills and drills; but I look upon the kind of exercises described here as like SLT, very simple and basic, but containing within it the most important elements of the whole system.

[anerlich]

I seem to remember Rickson being quoted some time back as only being interested in ring fighting again if the purses dramitcally increased in value, to Mike Tyson / Pro Boxing levels.

[black89]

Rickson Gracie would pound anybody. Including cotour and silva. I would like to know if the rumor is true, if he really has never lost not even messing around in the dojo. When he fights he shaves his head and beats azz. On the highlight real did you see the one where he flips around when the guy tries to pick him up? He's like a freakin cat!

[Ultimatewingchun]

That was a serious troll post, black89.

As for people like Couture, Silva, Sakuraba, etc...

Rickson (and his supporters) can make no claims.These people mentioned have fought everybody put in front of them - including many high quality fighters.

Rickson hasn't done that.

[anerlich]

On the highlight real did you see the one where he flips around when the guy tries to pick him up?

That, or something very similar, is in "Choke" itself.

It's pretty good, but there are equally fabulous clips out there featuring guys like Genki Sudo and Sakuraba, both of whom have formidable agility.

I still think the slickest move I've ever seen was in a GIF animation I saw, a sort of jumping leg-thread-to-reverse-heelhook. Don't even know who the fighters were, but it was "fully sick, mate", as they say on a famous TV show here.

Victor's correct in that all the comparisons are "what-ifs" unless Rickson decides he wants to fight again. You could say Bruce Lee woulda kicked all their butts ... but it ain't going to happen.

Bear in mind also that Rickson ain't the one saying all these things but his fan base. Don't blame him for that.

[sihing]

I downloaded Choke awhile back and enjoyed it very much, and even though I am not a GJJ practitioner it is easy to see the skill level that Rickson possesses is very high. On the ground you are meat in his hands. His skill there is so high that he could easily blindfold himself and still win. Skill IMO can be seen and if he fought those guys Victor mentioned (Corture, Silva, etc..) he would do quite well if he played his game and not there's.

You have to look at high skill levels like barriers, regardless of the method you use to climb or overcome that barrier it will still slow you down. Now, the larger the barrier is to overcome (high skill level) the longer or harder it will be to overcome, so anyone that has a high skill level in any MA will pose a problem to most people, the more problems you pose them the better your chances are to be successful in the confrontation. IMO WC was created to teach people how to overcome skilled fighters in less time and with more efficiency and effectiveness, and/or pose more problems to any fighter they meet. Take any good fighter and put them in a phone booth and see what happens. As for BJJ IMO it is similar to WC in the way that it teaches efficient/effective movements that surprise opponents not familiar with that area of fighting and it also eliminates what the opponent is allowed to do to you therefore allowing smaller people to defeat larger/stronger opponents, but only for the ground game. After watching Choke I could easily see the similarities (not in technique) between the two arts. Like Rickson said about using the art to fight with, you eventually learn to feel the opponents movements and be "at a zero point or neutral with the opponent, and go with the flow", similar &/or exact to the WC fighting concepts.


James

[reneritchie]

Rickson lost a Sambo match (to Matt Trigg?). He was thrown for Ippon, but landed locking an armbar on Trigg. According to the rules, he lost because his back touched the mat. Rickson claims not to have understood the rules. That's the only loss I am aware of on his record.

Rumina Sato was also very slick, with flying triangles in MMA. Ivan Menjivar is also amazing to watch. He won a local tournament last year with a cartwheel guard pass straight into a kneebar.

However, IMHO, what made/makes Rickson so good (aside from a lifetime of focus in his training, and natural talent by the truckload) is:

1) Incredible clinching ability. You can often see fighters unable to win simply because they cannot control the range (either grapplers who can't get the takedown or position, or stand up fighters who can't stay on their feet). When you watch Rickson clinch, it is an amazing display of timing and body coordination, especially what his footwork and hip work is doing.

2) Simple game plan. He doesn't do the fancy stuff. He gets the clinch, gets the takedown, passes, mounts, and either takes the armbar or gets the rear-naked. Combine such simplicity (well honed over the years) with ubelievable pressure, seemless transitions, and accute body awareness, and it becomes understandable why world champs claim that not only can Rickson tap them, but can actually shut down their own movements. You won't see the flying triangle from Rickson, but you'll see the basics done to near-perfection.

BTW- I am also incredibly impressed with Couture. To go from out-wrestling Tito to out-punching Liddell, and toss in smashing Belfort, is an achievement. To do that at 40+, and doing the Eco-Challenge in between, is phenomenal.

Couture seems so smart, always coming up with a game plan to mentally defeat his opponent as much as physically. Combine that with hisown excellent clinch game (many WCK people could be inspired to 'get close' like that), and his ability to get the takedown, and even though he can stall at times, I still find his fights compelling.

[black89]

I think Rickson and Catour both have really good attitudes. The're humble compared to the titto's and silva's. I watched the video of Rickson Royler demo, it pretty impressive. rickson went from and armbar to a triangle armbar to another armbar and tapped royler out! Royler nothing to laugh at but he was pathetic compared to Rickson.

[anerlich]

Take any good fighter and put them in a phone booth and see what happens.

Hmmm.

Call 911?

Call the gym and get all their training buds to come down for the smackdown? Or to try for the phone booth cramming world record (use lightweights)

Dial for a pizza?

(sorry) :o

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I am also incredibly impressed with Couture. To go from out-wrestling Tito to out-punching Liddell, and toss in smashing Belfort, is an achievement. To do that at 40+, and doing the Eco-Challenge in between, is phenomenal.

Couture seems so smart, always coming up with a game plan to mentally defeat his opponent as much as physically. Combine that with his own excellent clinch game (many WCK people could be inspired to 'get close' like that), and his ability to get the takedown, and even though he can stall at times, I still find his fights compelling." (Rene)


ONE OF THE BIGGEST reasons why I've been clamouring so much about the need for Wing Chun people to crosstrain in a grappling art. The fact that Wing Chun strategy is to always try and gain a very close infight position makes it much easier for the opponent to try and clinch up and begin grappling - so we need to not only be prepared for it (with our own defensive clinch and grapple skills) - but we can use the close proximity to our own offensive advantage as well...by going for the clinch, the takedown, the standing armlock or choke...ourselves. In addition to the striking that we usually try to do in this range. Just a few inches closer - and you're in a whole new range - where striking may not be applicable.

When the shoe fits - wear it!

And chi sao skills can fit like a glove right into clinch pummeling and other grappling
skills and moves at this range.