Hawkins Cheung..

[Dahmanegi]

Can anyone tell me about him? My friend/co-worker is looking to learn from this guy...He's like one of the only places we can find in LA area. Any others?

[Nick Forrer]

He is a very good wing chun practitoner (also karate blackbelt FWIW)

He was friends with bruce lee in HK and is an original student of ip man

Go to chusaulei.com to read articles by him

Ernie on the WC forum trains with him so you might want to ask him

Also in LA you have for WC Gary Lam, Robert Chu and Emin Boztepe. All of these guys have v good reps although i have only met and trained with Emin who is in a word 'awesome'.

[red5angel]

He was friends with bruce lee in HK and is an original student of ip man

the irony in this comment, and it gets made a lot in the WC world, is that Bruce Lee not only couldn't get the entire system from Yip Man, but that because of it he pretty much denounced classical kungfu in favor of creating his own way of fighting. But because he was a big name, all these WC guys have to mention they knew him or hung out with him or were freinds with him and so on.

[Nick Forrer]

Hawkins was friends with Bruce. This is a factual statement. I dont know what the rest of your rant is about unless its to say he didnt know Bruce and is lying about his relationship with him. In which case you might want to substantiate that slur a little.

For the original poster here are some of his articles about his relationship with Bruce Lee

Hawkins and Bruce (http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html)

[DragonzRage]

as far as Wing Chun guys go, I think Hawkins is pretty **** good. He has a pretty straightforward no-nonsense way of looking at things, and doesn't seem bound by the traditional rules of his style. I don't necessarily agree with all his methods but you gotta like a Wing Chun master who goes around saying "trapping hands is bull$hit!"

I have no desire to learn wing chun. But if I did, I can't really think of anyone I know of who I'd put ahead of Cheung. And this is coming from a non-kung fu/non-TMA'ist so I'm not speaking from any biases here.

[red5angel]

Hawkins was friends with Bruce. This is a factual statement. I dont know what the rest of your rant is about unless its to say he didnt know Bruce and is lying about his relationship with him. In which case you might want to substantiate that slur a little.

For the original poster here are some of his articles about his relationship with Bruce Lee

Hawkins and Bruce (http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/index.html)



LOL, I'm not saying he didn't know him, although "they" all "knew" him back then. What I'm saying is it's ironic that they claim such a close connection publicly to a guy who had so much trouble with the wingchun community and the art that he created his own style. It's sheer PR in my book. Mention Bruce Lee and eye's light up, mention you knew him and boy do people pay attention.

[Losttrak]

Steven Hawkings is far deadlier.

[DragonzRage]

I used to practice JKD and followed all the Bruce Lee talk pretty closely. Bruce and Hawkins were indeed very close friends and training partners, as acknowledged by many people in the know (including Dan Inosanto, for one). And to be fair, Hawkins was always actually pretty low key with regards to his relationship with Bruce. There were and are tons of people far less close to Bruce who've shamelessly capitalized off his name a lot more than Cheung ever did. Cheung did become pretty vocal regarding the shortcomings he perceived in the modern incarnation of JKD. Altho I didn't agree with everything he said (esp. his Wing CHun-centric points), a lot of it rang very true.

[black89]

My si hing trained under him for a while, said he was really good and enjoyed it. He switched to wingtsun after a little while though. There is WT training availabel in LA if your intrested. The same sifu that teaches there teaches me also.

[Gangsterfist]

the irony in this comment, and it gets made a lot in the WC world, is that Bruce Lee not only couldn't get the entire system from Yip Man, but that because of it he pretty much denounced classical kungfu in favor of creating his own way of fighting. But because he was a big name, all these WC guys have to mention they knew him or hung out with him or were freinds with him and so on.


Bruce Lee really wasn't a student of Yip Man. He was a student of wong shueng lueng. He did train with yip man, but WSL was his sifu. He learned a lot about fighting from WSL. He learned the SLT, parts of chum kiu and parts of the dummy is what I heard. Which is probably typical of a student that does wing chun for 1.5 to 2 years.

AFAIK about Hawkins, is I have never heard anything directly bad about the guy. So, I would go train with him in person if you could to better form an opinion.

[red5angel]

yes, I, like many people on this board know BL's history. What I was referring to was the fact that he went back to HK late ron to try to get Yip Man himself to teach him the rest of wingchun. I'm positive he was motivated by the name as much as anything else and Yip Man refused him, even after he offered some pretty lavish gifts.
In my own theory on the origins of JKD, this was part of what led Bruce to labelling TMA as a "Classical Mess" He was frustrated because he found that throwing money at a traditional instructor in china at the time did not guarentee you a spot under him.

[red5angel]

Guys, keep in mind I never said anything about Mr. Cheungs ability to teach or to fight. All I said was that I found it ironic that there are quite a few wingchun people out there who like to toss out BL's name. It's entirely possible Mr. Cheung had a close and solid realtionship with Bruce Lee, I just find it ironic that there are some people who use his name to add some weight to what they teach, when it turns out he decried what they teach as a classical mess.

[5 Venoms]

Bruce Lee really wasn't a student of Yip Man. He was a student of wong shueng lueng. He did train with yip man, but WSL was his sifu. He learned a lot about fighting from WSL. He learned the SLT, parts of chum kiu and parts of the dummy is what I heard. Which is probably typical of a student that does wing chun for 1.5 to 2 years.


William Cheung was Bruce's main teacher, at least according to some of Bruce's peers as well as Cheung himself. In fact, William Cheung published an article about it in Black Belt Magazine some years ago. And to my knowledge, none of Yip Man's other high level instructors have come out and publicly denied this. This is another confusing debate. Because it was pretty well known that Yip Man didn't really teach new students himself. To quote one article, he "never touched hands with a new student". Meaning that he supposably never taught or trained new students. Yet there are numerous photos of a young Bruce crossing arms with Yip.

Also, there is still debate on exactly how long Bruce studied Wing Chun. Some say a year and half to 2 years. Yet at least one of Bruce's first generation students have said it was closer to 5 years. In fact, this is also stated in The Tao of Gung Fu. That, along with the fact that Bruce attempted some Biu Jee techniques against Wong Jack Man during their confrontation (Wong Jack himself has stated this, saying Bruce tried some "darting finger" techniques against him in the opening of the fight). So the circumstantial evidence states that Bruce may have studied for longer than 2 years. And again, if you consider the fact that as Yip Man got older, he refused to personally teach new students, then how do you explain the photos and personal accounts of Bruce crossing arms, training, doing chi sau, etc with Yip? Was Bruce already a student for a long time? Or did Yip have a fondness for Bruce that he did not show with any other new student of the time?

Unfortunately, neither Bruce nor Yip Man is with us. So all that we have to go on are the few people left alive who knew or trained with Bruce from his Wing Chun days (i.e. William Cheung, etc). And, even when those people tell of their personal experience, they are doubted or called liars so there's no way we'll ever know all of the facts.

[5 Venoms]

Guys, keep in mind I never said anything about Mr. Cheungs ability to teach or to fight. All I said was that I found it ironic that there are quite a few wingchun people out there who like to toss out BL's name.

Yes, that is very unfortunate but then again, look at those who never even met Bruce yet claim to teach JKD via videos and books! They are trying to make a profit and as someone said in a different thread, almost like snake oil salesmen. At least with Wing Chun practicioners who actually knew and trained with Bruce (and in some cases became friends or mentors to him early on), it is understandable that they would like to share their experiences or stories about knowing Bruce.

As to why Bruce became frustrated with Wing Chun, there are various accounts but you can read an interesting article on it from a 1997 issue of Inside Kung Fu magazine, entitled "Why Bruce Lee Left Wing Chun".

http://www.wingchuncalifornia.com/articles/new/

To sum it up, this article (written by Eric Orem, senior student of William Cheung) claims that Bruce, being naturally gifted with athletic ability, wounded the egos of some of Yip Man's senior students, so they pressured Yip Man into getting rid of Bruce. Later in the same article, it also states that Bruce was frustrated at being taught a modified version of Wing Chun (Chan Wah Shuen) instead of Traditional Wing Chun.

[Shaolinlueb]

i heard yip man didnt pass on some wing chun stuff and it was lost. likew broadsword and double broadsword. is that true or am i wrong?

[DragonzRage]

a funny quote from Hawkins Cheung regarding the "Traditional" Wing Chun vs the "Modified"...

"It's just William [Cheung] making mischief. Traditional, modified... that's all bull$hit."

[rogue]

So in the end who was the better fighter William Cheung or Bruce Lee? I think BL would have eaten WC for lunch and have room left over for cake and coffee. Boztepe never would have smacked around Bruce.

[Gangsterfist]

i heard yip man didnt pass on some wing chun stuff and it was lost. likew broadsword and double broadsword. is that true or am i wrong?

Yes and no, you see he passed on the 6 and a half point long pole and the butterfly knives down, he only passed it on to a few students though. Who is authentic? really at this point it doesn't matter with all the different types of media it has gotten out, and everyone in the wing chun world knows it. Who is going to argue that they got the original? Its next to impossible to prove, and the videos of YM doing them are in pretty bad shape.

AFAIK, according to the this link:

http://www.wingchun.com/yipline.html

Bruce lee was a student of WSL. Yip Man just really like William Cheung and showed him some other wing chun concepts that William Cheung teaches called traditional wing chun, or TWC. From what I have been told from GM Ho Kam Mings students, and my sifu as well, that this lineage line is pretty accurate.


So in the end who was the better fighter William Cheung or Bruce Lee? I think BL would have eaten WC for lunch and have room left over for cake and coffee. Boztepe never would have smacked around Bruce.

Well, its a bit hard to justify Boztepe owning WC. In the video WC was clearly trying to difuse the situation because it was at one of his seminars. The fight only lasted a few seconds and was immediately broken up. Also, from what I have been personally told about William Chueng is that he was infact a good fighter, which is why Yip Man took him on as a last student. Yip Man liked him and like the fact he had skill. Now, the TWC system is something I am not too familiar about, but it has similiarities to HFY wing chun. Now, comparing him to bruce I think you are comparing apples to oranges.

I could go on with more wing chun politics but I am tired of it, hope this may clear out some of misunderstandings.

[sihing]

I've used to think lots when I had the time about the possibility of a William Cheung and Bruce Lee match up. From what I have read, Bruce was supposed to visit Cheung in Australia to see this "Traditional Wing Chun" as Cheung had told him about it before Bruce died. In my estimation, at the least, Bruce would not have defeat Cheung very easily. You have to remember that Bruce looked up to Cheung as a very skilled fighter, so the psychological edge would have gone to Cheung, because he was his senior, was bigger and equally as fast (Cheung was scientifically proven to through 8.5 or so punches per second back in the mid 80's, not just someone saying he is fast, and that was when he was in his mid 40's not early 30's), and also Cheung's skills were high then too. He had about 12 years or so of time to refine his TWC skills and from what I understand from personal conversations with Cheung, he used it lots in Australia back in that era. Also, I read on WSL site of the meeting Bruce and Wong had and that they compared skills with Wong doing quite well against Bruce, so the same could have easily happened with Cheung. So, IMO Cheung would have won an all out contest of skills, but it would be a close match up for sure.

James

[black89]

So did leung ting learn more than Hawkins? It seems he kinda started his own style. I thought I heard something about ting being a closed door student.

[rogue]

I like what Leung Ting is doing. He's moving WT forward while still retaining the original flavor. I saw one of his people while on some buzniss in Cleveland and the guy was amazing.








I'm The Real Original Lucky Louie!

[sihing]

So did leung ting learn more than Hawkins? It seems he kinda started his own style. I thought I heard something about ting being a closed door student.
Hard to say if Ting learned more than Hawkins, but I agree that Ting's WT is his own creation. To say the least he's a genius in marketing, more so than a fighter per say IMO.

James

[Mr Punch]

[Leans back in rockin chair on porch, spits, sucks pipe, swigs whisky...shrugs]

Storm comin'.

[Creaks. Tumbleweed rolls past]

[Gangsterfist]

[Leans back in rockin chair on porch, spits, sucks pipe, swigs whisky...shrugs]

Storm comin'.

[Creaks. Tumbleweed rolls past]

LOL, had to laugh at that one.

Its highly contraversial what Ting learned, and infact in the lineage that I posted earlier Ting learned from one of yip man's students, but then he apparently skipped a generation, which in china doesn't happen very often. They are all about lineage and tradition and honor in china, especially back in those days.

Who can say that he is the real deal or not? Its hard to say and its pointless to argue. There is lots of different wing chun out there, and lots of different marketing ploys.

Boztepe was part of Tings association, and from what I have heard from people in my lineage who have personally worked out with boztepe is, that he is infact very talented martial artist. He left Ting's association and is doing his own thing now. It looks to me like he is changing lots of his training methods to more of what the yip man lineage is all about, especially in their chi sao, its more controlling. If this is true from what I have heard from various people, and what little I have seen of boztepe, he may start producing some awesome students.

Then again, who knows. As for hawkins, I have heard a ton of mixed things about him, but I am gonna refrain from saying anything about him. Since the things I have heard are pretty mixed up, just like most of wing chun history/lineage.

Bottom line, if you wana train wing chun don't buy into lineage hype. Just go train with the people and see if its for you or not. You should be able to make the decision on your own. Once you work out with them, then come back and ask others for input.

[Vio]

Hawkins is one of the few Wing chun practionaers that's actually fought in the street
I would jump at any oppotunity to learn applied WC

[Gangsterfist]

Hawkins is one of the few Wing chun practionaers that's actually fought in the street
I would jump at any oppotunity to learn applied WC

Yes, according to him, but how do you know its real. The MA world is full of hype and marketing.

[DragonzRage]

I wouldn't doubt that he's been in his share of scuffles. The guy's got a hot Cantonese temper and seems to have somewhat of a big mouth at times also. I heard from one of his students some years back that Hawkins was involved in some kind of road rage street fight with a group of punks who gave him a pretty good licking, landing him in the hospital. He's a pretty small old man so its not surprising that he got his a$$ beat in that situation. But the fact that he had the nerve to exit his car and mix it up with a couple younger stronger guys shows that he's got a fighter's mentality. Pretty cool guy, IMO.

[rogue]

Sooner or later it happens to anybody who fights often and the sooner we realize that the better off we are.

[DragonzRage]

yup. the only people who are never defeated are those who never fight.

[Gangsterfist]

yeah, was not trying to debunk him, never trained with him, don't know him. i was simply stating that in the MA world, and especially in the wing chun world, a lot of things are embelished, or plain just made up IMO.

Hawkins Cheung could be the best wing chunner out there for all I know. I would just not believe the hype until I met and trained with the man.