The next level?

[PangQuan]

Just looking for some advice from some of you who have been practicing for a long time.

What do you do when you reach a point in your training where you feel that you are plateaued? I have hit plateaus before, and got past them. This one feels different though.

I know I can do it mentally and physically but when it comes to it I have this mental blockage which seems to keep me down. I have this problem, letting go. I cant seem to clear my mind completely when I am executing techniques or doing forms.

Sparring is fine, I get the mode easy in that situation. How can I pull that mindset over to my other forms of training? It seems that sometimes I am really on the ball and can execute my desired moves well, then sometimes my mind gets in the way. When I fight/sparr, I go on automaton, its so simple and I just naturally do what is needed. How can I get this same reaction with forms and such? I think it may be a performing issue. Like I cant get other people (sifu and fellow students) out of my mind when I execute in front of the group.

This mind problem is the only real major factor holding me back. I can feel the potential and see the goal.

[red5angel]

I don't know, it sounds like you're describing my general training experience! Sometimes I mentally get stuck and have to find a trick to move on, and sometimes my body just won't co-operate and I have to move on to something else and come back.

Do you think you're at a stalemate in your current art or are you just looking for tricks to get past this hump?

[PangQuan]

Just looking for those tricks. My Sifu has several "styles" that he teaches. He has several systems to share as he recieved the full teachings of his Sifu. He basically teaches mixed martial arts but only with a compilation of different styles of kung fu/wushu. So far I am studying Shaolin methods. Long fist (Chang Quan) and Red fist (Hong Quan).

I really enjoy the Hong Quan and am hoping to eventually complete the system. But who knows. I am just looking for a way to let my potential out.

[Oso]

take a break.

don't quit training but think of your training as 'maintenance' for a while and maybe focus on something else you really enjoy for a bit instead of the fu.

I hit a bad spot in my training last fall and decided to buy a bass and learn how to play it.

[red5angel]

take a break.

don't quit training but think of your training as 'maintenance' for a while and maybe focus on something else you really enjoy for a bit instead of the fu.

I hit a bad spot in my training last fall and decided to buy a bass and learn how to play it.

That's not a bad idea. When I was done with wingchun, I took a year to just workout. I worked some basic fighting principles from time to time but mostly I ran, lifted weights did that sort of thing. It helped me to gain new perspective on what I wanted.

[PangQuan]

I kinda did that. I have started to learn Mandarin. I actually really like the language and its not too difficult to pick up. Im using the Pimsleur system.

But I didnt cut back on the training. So your saying that if I cut back to just maintaining my state, and learning new forms, that when I really
"hit the books" I might get a boost? What about that mental blockage? Think that will help it?

[Oso]

i wouldn't say 'cut back' as much as let some of the intensity, both mental and physical, relax for a little bit and turn your mind to working on something else.

the mandarin was a good choice but for me, I needed something that didn't have a direct relationship to the fu.

certainly take this advice, and any other, with the caveat that we are only expressing what worked for us.

mental blocks are tougher than physical plateaus, you can use a scientific approach to get past a physical plateau.

[red5angel]

Oso has a good point, it could be you're too focused and maybe you need to just re-focus, relax a little maybe take it easy in your training.

[FatherDog]

I don't know, it sounds like you're describing my general training experience! Sometimes I mentally get stuck and have to find a trick to move on, and sometimes my body just won't co-operate and I have to move on to something else and come back.

So you're suggesting that the solution is for him to take up breakdancing?

[PangQuan]

Ya, I will definately sift through advice given here. I really respect experience and value the advice given by others who have been in the same spots, and overcame them. I guess its one of those "inner problems" that I have to figure out.

[Oso]

probably...one of the 'few' good things about this place is that if the hijackers leave the thread alone you can get some good 'thinking out loud' done.

this is going to sound cheesy but when I talk to my students about blocks, or taking breaks I make them ask themselves if they are in it for the long run or the short run. If they are in it for the long run then taking a couple of weeks or even a couple of months break from intense training is nothing to worry about.

good luck.

[David Jamieson]

up the ante and try a different approach.

For me taking a break is built into the schedule. I take a day off sometimes two and rest up.

For the Kungfu, there is always something to review, look back on, pull out, dust off and see if there is something new in it that wasn't noticed before.(There usually is)

Testing stuff is also a way to see what is effective, what is ineffective and what need work or tuning. I'm sure a lot of us have stuff we haven't visited in a while, at least for the folks who have been at it for a long time.

If you can find good training partners and sparring partners who challenge you consistently, you will find that plateauing doesn't occur so much.

After a whack of years in, I am still finding leaks, still finding areas to be improved and am still not bored at all with any of it.

[red5angel]

So you're suggesting that the solution is for him to take up breakdancing?


Who wouldn't want too!!! :p


Actually in all seriousness, I took a year off from wingchun because I was burnt out. My experience at that point left a bad taste in my mouth. I got into the martial arts because I wanted to learn to fight, but otherwise didn't have any real solid goals. I liked wingchun, and assumed all chinese arts were as good. So when I was ready to get back into training I hit several schools, a Southern Preying Mantis school, I checked out but never attended a Bagua/Hsingyi school. Thought I wanted to get into competition but medical reasons left me high and dry there. Decided I was still young enough to go looking for something real physical so tried shaolin longfist. I was enjoying it but was stil slightly burnt out on the traditional chinese way of training, and the school closed. Had no idea what I was going to do then, maybe focus on the Kali and grappling I was going to classes for occasionally. Found Capoeira and by that time realized I wanted something for fun and wasn't all that serious about training to be a natural born killa'.
So it took me about two years and several different attempts to find something that clicked for me once I hit a hump like Pangquan described. Turns out breakdance fighting was the thing I needed to get my martial arts spirit and enjoyment back!

[Merryprankster]

I know I can do it mentally and physically but when it comes to it I have this mental blockage which seems to keep me down. I have this problem, letting go. I cant seem to clear my mind completely when I am executing techniques or doing forms.

Sparring is fine, I get the mode easy in that situation. How can I pull that mindset over to my other forms of training? It seems that sometimes I am really on the ball and can execute my desired moves well, then sometimes my mind gets in the way. When I fight/sparr, I go on automaton, its so simple and I just naturally do what is needed. How can I get this same reaction with forms and such? I think it may be a performing issue. Like I cant get other people (sifu and fellow students) out of my mind when I execute in front of the group.

When your mind is the problem, the mind is your solution. I have an answer that is unpopular with a lot of people. You have to start taking responsibility for your training. This is not an insult. What people often fail to realize is that how good you get how quickly isn't a function of time spent practicing and talent as much as it is a choice you make. I would rather have a person show up three times a week, who has been mentally rehearsing all of his movements and doing visualization, than come six times a week, just putting in the time.

You go on automatic when you spar, well, I'm personally not sure how good that is, except for reaction. An automaton must respond, it has no volition. You want patterns of movement to be automatic, but YOU want to control all the fight variables.

What you need to do is practice, practice, practice mental visualization, and couple it with positive self talk. This will seem ridiculous at first, but it is the difference between perfecting what you do and going through the motions. When you are out there practicing techniques, that is a chance to augment your mental rehearsal with physical movement.

As an example of mental visualization, I have a "plan" for what *I* am going to do to the other guy before I compete, and I go through that over and over and over. I trust my training to carry out the plan. In the event that the other guy stops me, I have "go-to" positions that allow me to get back to my plan and follow through with execution. I do not execute this plan blindly - I am always looking to improve my situation, and will take what is given, when it is offered, as I work towards completing my plan. I mentally rehearse different scenarios I might find myself in, that are part of my plan or how to get back to it.

Further, each movement or situation may require mental imagery too. As an example, when I am doing squats, I imagine that I am the Hulk. When I do bench press, I picture the bar loaded down with weights, bending under the strain, and me just pumping them out like a robot. Is this goofy imagery? You bet! But guess what? It works for me.

As an example of positive self-talk, I never get tired any more in competition, because I decided not to. It takes mentally psyching myself up, and you have to find what works for you. I have a whole routine I go through that turns nervous energy into positive excitement over the upcoming challenge.

There are two things you need to know about the above things:

1. It requires practice. You may not be able to actually focus for more than a few seconds at a time, and then have to start over as you start thinking about groceries or something. So practice.

2. It is exhausting. Doing this commits all of you to performance.

It's the difference between training/competing, and just showing up.

[PangQuan]

What would one suggest for the matter of mental performance issues?

Edit: thanks for the advice MP, makes sense. I have been working on game plans when I spar. I try to pull some of my kenjitsu experence into the kung fu. That seems to help. When I sparr with my fencing buddies its different for some reason. Could be the 5 year advantage I have with that type of MA.

I will try some of that mental imagery stuff. I have used that kind of application in regards to business before, it just never occured to me to use it for martial arts. I deffinately practice outside of classes. And am consantly thinking of my forms. I think that I need to find a way to empty my mind of scrutinization of others while I perform. I have this little voice in my head that keeps reminding me that others are critiquing my moves.

[Merryprankster]

What would one suggest for the matter of mental performance issues?

I'm unclear here - do you mean when being put on display? Well, competition is display to, if you let it be, and many people do. You have to not care :) And you not care by focusing on the challenge.

Your challenge is doing the form right, so use that. Where I "never get tired," you might "be flawless," You might "understand so well that every thing you are doing holds all the meaning of that movement."

[PangQuan]

Thats a good point.

I posted that question before I noticed you had posted. I added an edit to it. Im at work so sometimes It will take me 10 minutes to get a one liner in. :)

[red5angel]

MP, what are your tricks to turning nervous energy into excitement?

I need to work more on the mental game myself. I keep remembering to try to visualize now I have to start doing it.

[Merryprankster]

All of what I am talking about is an acquired skill...and once you have it, it's yours to keep.

It takes a while to internalize though. I don't know how to describe it. You really have to buy into it. If you keep thinking this is stupid, it doesn't work. It's not like lifting weights - even if you don't believe in it, you'll get stronger.

This, on the other hand, is an all or nothing propisition!

[Merryprankster]

Red, in many ways, you are what you do.

If you are smiling, you start getting happier. If you are frowning, you start getting annoyed or sadder. If you are nervous, you can retreat into a shell and start to worry, or you can "be happy to be here." I decided to be "happy to be here."

Some other guys go all quiet. I'm not sure what they are doing.

[red5angel]

ok, it makes some sort of sense. I need to work on those sorts of things. I've always felt that they would improve my ability to accomplish what I want, I've just never got around to doing. Probably because it's never occurred to me it would impact my performance a whole lot. It's a weird gut reaction because you always hear from the high level performers in all sorts of sports that they use visualization techniques and the like.

[MasterKiller]

Red, in many ways, you are what you do.

If you are smiling, you start getting happier. If you are frowning, you start getting annoyed or sadder. If you are nervous, you can retreat into a shell and start to worry, or you can "be happy to be here." I decided to be "happy to be here."

Some other guys go all quiet. I'm not sure what they are doing. The more you experience an emotion, the more your body becomes dependent on the chemicals that produce that emotion. Cell receptors for emotional chemicals work the same way cell receptors for drugs work. Infact, they are the same receptors in most cases. So, if you constantly reinforce a behaviour/emotional state, your cells develop more receptors for those chemicals, thereby making you an "addict" to depression, nervousness..... or happiness, depending on what you choose to reinforce.

[red5angel]

Some other guys go all quiet. I'm not sure what they are doing.

Imagining their opponents in a bloody heap on the floor, while they stand in their animal skin loin cloths, holding their opponents severed head up for the crowd who is cheering maniacally for their hero. Or is that just me?

[PangQuan]

Thats just you, I dont dig loin cloths. I wear battle shorts myself.

[red5angel]

thats' because your prissy.

[PangQuan]

dude, my battle shorts have spikes on them. Whats your loin cloth got on that, besides easy axcess.

[red5angel]

I can run and evacuate myself without mussing up my loin cloth for one thing. It also has a nice leopard/tiger print depending on what sort of modd I'm in.

[FatherDog]

I can run and evacuate myself without mussing up my loin cloth for one thing. It also has a nice leopard/tiger print depending on what sort of modd I'm in.

So, which is it when you're in rubthebuddha?

[g0pher]

You never climax as a Martial Artist. You always have room for improvment (especially if you do forms). And if you can't clear your mind, then you have a long way to go as a Martial Artist. You just really have to try to not try is what I mean, as nebulous as that sounds. Remember the martial way is an art.

But anyway, one day there will come a point where you may be able to go no further with the same teacher. It depends on your teachers experience. The best thing you can do is to find the best teacher you posibly can.

Best regards.

[red5angel]

So, which is it when you're in rubthebuddha?

that's rubthebuddhas mom...and she likes prety much all of that stuff.

[red5angel]

You never climax as a Martial Artist.


speak for yourself bub. I plan on it a couple of times this evening as a matter of fact.

[PangQuan]

Thanks for the advice. Im not at all worried about my teacher. He will be able to take me a very long way. Its not that I cant clear my mind, just sometimes I cant. I am trying to figure out how to switch over at any point in time.

[MasterKiller]

speak for yourself bub. I plan on it a couple of times this evening as a matter of fact.

You driving past Vaseline Alley on the way home again?

[red5angel]

whatever gets the job done...and since your wife is having her time of the month....

[MasterKiller]

and since your wife is having her time of the month....

You afraid of a little blood?

[Shaolinlueb]

your instructor should help you get over your platue. once you hit it, you wont notice your ability improving a lot very quickly like it did in the begining. take on more advance things but in smaller easy to manage ways to acoomplish and you will be on our way.

[PangQuan]

your instructor should help you get over your platue. once you hit it, you wont notice your ability improving a lot very quickly like it did in the begining. take on more advance things but in smaller easy to manage ways to acoomplish and you will be on our way.

I think I will try that along with the visualization and self pep talks.

Thanks.

[Shaolinlueb]

visualization helps. dont want to do too much self pep talks cause then you'll always be pepping yourself up. i had a problem when my sifu moved his school to a new location and made the training easier for the area. i had to push myself even harder to feel good when i came out of a class. but good luck man. theres this one book on teaching martial arts by a korean TKD teacher. and it can be used for kung fu too, but there is a page or two about the platue's for students. and that's what i said basically to you is new things that are hard but take it in small steps.