sparring in the old days

[Octavius]

So it's a given that in order to learn how to fight, you have to fight. Nowadays, sparring (or any version of sparring) can be done relatively safely due to modern equipment and gear, pads, etc. But what about way back when. How did people train fighting 300 years ago or more? Thick cloth around the fist in lieu of a punching glove? sack filled with cloth/wheat instead of kick pads or focus mitts? My personal take on it is that things were more rough and tumble back then and people simply roughhoused during training, and if you sprained a knee or lost a tooth, so be it. What do you guys think?

[David Jamieson]

They had all sorts of stuff to train with...but to be honest, I really don't think about how the oldsters used to do it. I think about what the heck am I gonna do at the moment. lol, Then when I am sparring, I try not to think at all and just be there. :p

[SimonM]

Then when I am sparring, I try not to think at all and just be there. :p

I can just imagine it:

You step into the ring wearing your gloves, headgear, mouthguard, kick pads, etc. You square off with your partner, bow and touch gloves.

Then it hits you: how did they spar back before they invented foam rubber?

Then something else hits you. :D

[PaiLumDreamer]

My Sifu told me how they sparred before...

Bare knuckle...? They didnt go all out, mind you. They didnt want to kill each other. If they hit to the head, it would be extremely controlled, etc. Its possible to fight without pads :p We have drills like that, actually. Forces you to use good control, or the guy you hit is going to be ****ED.

Also gives you the added sense of danger, so you tend to focus on defending yourself more.

Then again, if you're sparring its much better to use pads. Then you can go all out a bit more, and get a better feel of how you're going to fight on the streets.

Anyway, to answer your question...No, they didnt "roughhouse". The fought all sme-art like.

[Ludeviews]

Sorry I can't help on your sparring question but interestingly I heard that the samurai used to practise their sword techs on prisoners.

Also in England, pre Jack Broughton they used to spar Bare knuckle, Jack was a poineer in that he introduced mufflers(gloves) for sparring so that the Gentry of the time would participate this was around 1750.

[red5angel]

back in the day they didn't just have to deal with broken bones, and bruises and all that, they also had to deal with burns from all the Qi balls being thrown around. Fortunately today people just don't have the time to devote to throwing Qi balls cause there is really no safe way to practice them with a live resisting opponent.

[Vash]

Carefully.

[red5angel]

They did alot of forms work and some two man dynaminc drills like chi sau. That is why they were able to kill so many people and why the traditional arts are so deadly now a days.

[PangQuan]

yep carefully. You also have to remember that in the "olden" day, when one is practicing martial arts at a school, or under a master, or family member, medicine is as important to the cirriculum as is punching and kicking. When someone got hurt due to a sparring related incident, the proper external herbal rubs and internal herbal pills were used in combination with acupressure, acupuncture, massage and moxibustion. Injuries were dealt with more care then they are today. This gave the practitioners the advantage to be able to go heavier on each other.

Just think back to how many times you or a fellow student shrugged off a sprain. This NEVER happened back in the day. Injuries were ALWAYS seen to imediately with precision and accuracy, and with the best possible outcome in mind. This is of course "case by case" as not everyone studied in a single invironment. But for the most part this is how sparring was handled.

Even the smallest bruise was treaded accordingly, as a bruise is looked at as a stagnation of blood, wich is driven by the qi, (shut up red) which in turn is stagnated. This stagnation, no matter the size, is viewed as an obstruction in practice and must be treated daily.

[Fu-Pow]

In my Sifu's "days" (Hong Kong circa 1960's) they used to fight with weight lifting gloves and a cup.

That was it.

I just got made fun of by my Sifu last Friday for wearing sparring gear. :o :( :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Just think back to how many times you or a fellow student shrugged off a sprain. This NEVER happened back in the day. Injuries were ALWAYS seen to imediately with precision and accuracy, and with the best possible outcome in mind. This is of course "case by case" as not everyone studied in a single invironment. But for the most part this is how sparring was handled.

How do you know this?


Even the smallest bruise was treaded accordingly, as a bruise is looked at as a stagnation of blood, wich is driven by the qi, (shut up red) which in turn is stagnated. This stagnation, no matter the size, is viewed as an obstruction in practice and must be treated daily.

:p



I just got made fun of by my Sifu last Friday for wearing sparring gear.

No way! Fu Pow being made fun of for being a sissy girl?! I cna't imagine it! :eek:

[SevenStar]

not everyone sparred back then. In japan and okinawa, it was frowned upon. They preferred drilling. even in the 1900's, it was still frowned upon by many, one notable was funakoshi.

I'm not sure what the thought on it was in china, but with chi sao, two man forms, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they did more drilling than sparring as well.

[PangQuan]

How do you know this?

Lot of reading based around chinese medicine. When people learn chinese medicine who are previously CMA they will learn traditions passed down from teacher to teacher.

This is also of course using the term "sparring" very loosley. More often they are what we would call fights. Exabition matches between rival schools, not with the intent on killing or maiming but with the intent of proving one to have a superior style. This often ended in minor injuries.

[truewrestler]

From the looks of most martial arts it looks like no one sparred 300 years ago

[PangQuan]

From the looks of most martial arts it looks like no one sparred 300 years ago

This is a rediculous notion.

[Shaolinlueb]

like anything they started with the basics. they jsut didnt jump right into it. they probably started with lots of drilling and conditioning. then more advanced techniques. sparring is really a drill too if you think about it. then when it came time to sparring they could go with a little speed and power and not worrying about having to hit too much. pretty easy. good schools still do it like this.

[SevenStar]

No, with japanese styles is simply wasn't done - with the possible exception of a few jujutsu schools. The notion was that the techniques they trained were meant to kill - you couldn't practice them safely - which was true. Kano removed those techniques when he created judo - That's why he caught so much flak when he introduced randori to his style and that's why karate styles were so reluctant to adopt it.

[PangQuan]

Depending on the style, I know that Kenjitsu practitioners sparred constantly. Using wooden swords (boken).

And still to this day this is continued. This is the type of practice we do when training dualy with japanese fencing. Otherwise it is strictly solo practice with a blade, or wood.

[SevenStar]

I've never heard that... since they use either a bokken or a live blade, sparring isn't safe - in kendo, you have armor and the shinai isn't as hard as a bokken, so the armor will protect you more. Also, kenjutsu emphasizes strikes to areas not beyond those covered by armor... at least that's what I've always thought - I know that they do have partner kata though.

[rogue]

not everyone sparred back then. In japan and okinawa, it was frowned upon. They preferred drilling. even in the 1900's, it was still frowned upon by many, one notable was funakoshi.
Right, but that didn't stop them. I've heard about pick up fights that Okinawans would have to test their skills, or they would pick fights at the seaports which I'd assume looked like brawls. Boys will be boys.

[red5angel]

Boys will be boys.



yer mom wants to be a boy

[PangQuan]

I have the scars and lumps to prove it :D

Key points when practicing against the ideal of an armored opponent are armpits, legs (thighs are nice), inner arms of biseps, and the hands. Openers for penetration techniques. Peircing is highly valuable. One of my sparring buddies developed samurai armor made with modern materials but with traditional patterns. I wont disclose the blueprints as its not been copyrighted. We have a bit more tweaking to do, but I think in the future you will start to see it on the market.

I have two friends that I get together with a few times a week and we spar with wooden weapons, mainly bokken, but we also incorporate sai, naginata, three section staff, chinese broad sword, straightsword, butterfly knives, foam nunchaku (those break **** quick though) and a wooden tanto. The more wooden weapons we aquire the more we sparr with.

We try to keep in moderation and only hit so hard, but depending on the speed...

[red5angel]

last year a friend of mine wanted to do some sparring with a couple of bokken he owned so I said sure why not. after a couple of shots to the fingers I figured out why not.

[PangQuan]

last year a friend of mine wanted to do some sparring with a couple of bokken he owned so I said sure why not. after a couple of shots to the fingers I figured out why not.

LOL, yep, thats when you start to really appreciate the effective uses of a Tsuba.

[SevenStar]

I have the scars and lumps to prove it :D



but did the guys 200 years ago do it? I know many jujutsu schools today spar as well.

[PangQuan]

Most deffinately. Speaking in terms of Kenjutsu. Often when a school had a challenger they would be met by the senior students and would duel singularly with bokken, if the set number of students were defeated then the master would then duel the challenger.

In this manner superiority could be determined without killing. This does not mean live blades were never used, but in a Dojo setting bokken was the norm for challenges.

Im not so sure about 200 years ago. 500 - 700 years ago they did. I am a bit rusty on my japanese history so I dont remember exactly when this type of activity became outlawed.

[Octavius]

Well, my question was more of an academic curiosity. In some ways we are lucky nowadays becasue (in a good school) you have both the advantages of modern equipment and modern medicine and traitional medicine/healing/resucitation methods so you can train hard and still remain healthy.

I've heard the same thing about drilling and "choreographed" 2-person sets (either as long forms like in CMA or short technicak katas like JMA koryu). But I'm still thinking that there must've been some type of training that incorporated increasing levels of resistance. I am leaning more towards the theory that there was tons of drilling (2 person or more), and that people got into fights more often back then and as long as no one was maimed/crippled/killed, you were scolded by the authorities (governmental or teacher-wise) but it wasn't as big a deal as it is now. I remember reading somewhere that the founder of Lau Gar (one of the five southern families) pared down the number of forms in his system becasue his take was learn to fight by fighting. But my curiosity extends a little further back than the last couple of hundred years. Humans have been fighting since Caine first *****-slapped Abel, so how did people train in the past?

[Vash]

Right, but that didn't stop them. I've heard about pick up fights that Okinawans would have to test their skills, or they would pick fights at the seaports which I'd assume looked like brawls. Boys will be boys.

*coughChokiMotobucough*

[rogue]

yer mom wants to be a boy
And you want a boy.

[red5angel]

And I want to be a boy.






...........

[Ray Pina]

[QUOTE=Octavius] Thick cloth around the fist in lieu of a punching glove? QUOTE]

My teacher puts it like this: don't go fight someone, go beat someone.

If you're going and expecting a fight, don't go fight that guy yet. So what if you knock out 7 of his teeth and he only knocks out two of yours .... don't call that a win. Who is the other guy?

But if you know you can man handle someone and beat them like a little girl .... than that "fight" aint no thing, and it aint really a fight.

I feel this way against the smaller guy of course, and most guys my size. Now I'm trying to strech it. But most certainly I'm still in the "fighting" stage. Though I had a nice break through on the ground the other day.

[MasterKiller]

No, with japanese styles is simply wasn't done - with the possible exception of a few jujutsu schools. The notion was that the techniques they trained were meant to kill - you couldn't practice them safely - which was true. Kano removed those techniques when he created judo - That's why he caught so much flak when he introduced randori to his style and that's why karate styles were so reluctant to adopt it.

Did 7* just say traditional Jiu-Jiutsu was too deadly for the ring?

[red5angel]

Did 7* just say traditional Jiu-Jiutsu was too deadly for the ring?


hehe I noticed that too ;)

[Royal Dragon]

We have now come full circle!

[SevenStar]

[QUOTE=Octavius] Thick cloth around the fist in lieu of a punching glove? QUOTE]

My teacher puts it like this: don't go fight someone, go beat someone.

If you're going and expecting a fight, don't go fight that guy yet. So what if you knock out 7 of his teeth and he only knocks out two of yours .... don't call that a win. Who is the other guy?



maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems unrealistic to me. If you win, you win, regardless of the number of teeth you lost - unless you severely outclass the guy. But in the case of ring fighting, this will almost never happen. In the street, you will never know.

[SevenStar]

Did 7* just say traditional Jiu-Jiutsu was too deadly for the ring?

I Didn't say it. I'm giving the reasoning that the tjj guys gave for not having randori in their curriculum. It is true that several of their techniques involved breaks and such. I would say adapt. they thought otherwise. :p

[SevenStar]

Most deffinately. Speaking in terms of Kenjutsu. Often when a school had a challenger they would be met by the senior students and would duel singularly with bokken, if the set number of students were defeated then the master would then duel the challenger.

In this manner superiority could be determined without killing. This does not mean live blades were never used, but in a Dojo setting bokken was the norm for challenges.

Im not so sure about 200 years ago. 500 - 700 years ago they did. I am a bit rusty on my japanese history so I dont remember exactly when this type of activity became outlawed.


that's cool, but that was a challenge match. Was there regular sparring that ocurred in this fashion?

[PangQuan]

So what your saying Ray is that we should only go if we know we outclass the other guy in skill? Where is the challenge?

We all like to come out victorious but sometimes getting pushed to your limits can be a good thing.

I understand going to beat the guy not fight him, but I dont understand not wanting to go just because you may be facing someone with near to more or less the same level of skill you posess.

[PangQuan]

that's cool, but that was a challenge match. Was there regular sparring that ocurred in this fashion?

Oh I gotcha. Sure, not to the extreme of a challenge match of course. But its the most economical way of producing actual Kenjutsu skill. Often times cloth padding would be added to the weapon. This type of sparring included not only bokken but other arms as well, including polearms. Most often in a class invironment padding was added to the tool.

Iaido kind of went hand in hand with Kenjutsu. Solo practice was dominantly Iaido, while in a group setting Kenjutsu was stressed. There are deffinate exceptions to this of course. This was all before the developement of Kendo. Personally I dont like Kendo.

Edit: this is the upside of kendo. The armor, and weapon. You can go full force against a seriously resisting and offensive opponent. This is where my buddies idea (with some input from me) comes in. We want to revive bokken practice, but meet modern day requirements of non injury. You can take a full blow from a baseball bat in the ribs with this stuff on.

[PangQuan]

This summer we are really going to get to it, we have prototype. Adjustments will be made, required materials will be purchased and a final product will be produced. After the proper patents or whatnot are in place I will post info on this. We are also begining to produce unique wooden (all made from the best available ironwoods) weapons which will also be new to the market.

These we will be marketing all at once as soon as everything filters into place.

[PangQuan]

On a side note I should add that sparring with wooden weapons was not an everyday thing. People would get injured frequently in these sessions.

[SevenStar]

This summer we are really going to get to it, we have prototype. Adjustments will be made, required materials will be purchased and a final product will be produced. After the proper patents or whatnot are in place I will post info on this. We are also begining to produce unique wooden (all made from the best available ironwoods) weapons which will also be new to the market.

These we will be marketing all at once as soon as everything filters into place.


can I get a free sample to test?

[PangQuan]

Hehe. Possibly depending on what type of marketing assistance you would be able to provide from your testing.

[PangQuan]

wait do you mean the armor or some weapons.

[Ray Pina]

So what your saying Ray is that we should only go if we know we outclass the other guy in skill? Where is the challenge?

We all like to come out victorious but sometimes getting pushed to your limits can be a good thing.

I understand going to beat the guy not fight him, but I dont understand not wanting to go just because you may be facing someone with near to more or less the same level of skill you posess.


I'm talking about a real fight, really wanting to go injure or kill somebody. This is different from training and sparring and even competition.

What would drive you to want to rip someone's head off? Put yourself in that state and put the other guy in that state .... it is very serious. You shouldn't enter it lightly. No ref will stop it. There is no tapping.

[red5angel]

give me either for testing pangquan and I can guarentee some testing. My street is fairly busy and I'll basically stand on the sidewalk and attacked anyone and everyone that comes through. Most likley you'll even get some video of it all, even if it is just on a cops episode :D

[PangQuan]

I gotcha Ray, good point.

[PangQuan]

give me either for testing pangquan and I can guarentee some testing. My street is fairly busy and I'll basically stand on the sidewalk and attacked anyone and everyone that comes through. Most likley you'll even get some video of it all, even if it is just on a cops episode :D


Actually I would be more inclined to give you a set of each if you make sure and get on cops. But just so you know, the armor is not bullet proof. Although with minor modifications it can be, just a bit of web cevlar and some extra placements of steel plates...

[PangQuan]

In all seriousness though, hopefully this year we will be looking at hitting the market. My friend is a real craftsman, good with his hands. I tend to be a good business man so I will be looking at making some contacts and setting up some marketing.

When the time comes, dont worry I will make a loud noise on the "other" section.

[SevenStar]

wait do you mean the armor or some weapons.

both, but at least the armor. I can test them with the kali guys that train upstairs.

[SevenStar]

we also have some d@mn good kendo and iaido in the city. I'm sure they'd love to test it.

[PangQuan]

good deal. I will surely update you as to our progress, with dates and such.

[rogue]

give me either for testing pangquan and I can guarentee some testing. My street is fairly busy and I'll basically stand on the sidewalk and attacked anyone and everyone that comes through. Most likley you'll even get some video of it all, even if it is just on a cops episode :D
And those trannies are tough. Red, what corner are you working these days? :p

[FatherDog]

both, but at least the armor. I can test them with the kali guys that train upstairs.

Do you guys make armor for gorillas?

[red5angel]

Actually I would be more inclined to give you a set of each if you make sure and get on cops. But just so you know, the armor is not bullet proof. Although with minor modifications it can be, just a bit of web cevlar and some extra placements of steel plates...


it would probably come out a lot like this: http://gprime.net/video.php/magicmissile/



And those trannies are tough. Red, what corner are you working these days?


not sure, ask your wife. Or your mom.

[Ray Pina]

PanQuan,

My master and his disciples are all very much into sword play and hold an annual contest. They are always looking for gear and invest quite heavily in new weaponry and gear .... they are addicts with this stuff.

If you're interested I can put you in contact with them.

[PangQuan]

PanQuan,

My master and his disciples are all very much into sword play and hold an annual contest. They are always looking for gear and invest quite heavily in new weaponry and gear .... they are addicts with this stuff.

If you're interested I can put you in contact with them.

Most deffinately. Things were kind of put on hold for a bit, due to the fact my buddy had a kid. But things are going to start rolling again soon here.

I will contact you and 7* as soon as we have our first final project. We will most likely have some video and for sure some pics. May be a little while yet, but not too long.