Physical appearance and your martial arts teacher

[PaiLumDreamer]

Recently I met a girl who trained eagle claw, and came from a slightly north area of Houston. When I found out she did Kung Fu, I basically bombarded her with questions. She told me a bit about her style and school, and even showed me a video.

Ok, cool. They look decent. I wont judge until I see her perform, though.

So I invite her to my school. She comes to a forms class, and does pretty decent. She lacked enthusiasm though. My Sifu said he knew her father from somewhere.

Anyway, she came back two other times...another class, and a sparring night. She fought a white sash, and our gal held her own against her. (But she beat me up, imo. lol :p :p )

Anyway, when she did fight...she would just swing her arms around. She left herself wide open a lot (she just kept punching down the middle, didnt really bring her arms back too much)...but im a nice guy, and not very aggressive at all...so I just kinda moved back and let her whack on me.

When she got hit though, she would stop, and hold her "wound". Before that she had told us to spar her like a guy...but when we barely tapped her she would get a little...whiny?

ANYWAY, im going off topic. Just trying to set the atmosphere. She was a nice girl, just high and mighty sometimes.

One day, we start talking...and she randomly brings up the fact that my instructor(s) are slightly overweight. She said she could not trust and learn from someone who looked like that.

I did a double take. "What...?"
"Yeah, if they do kung fu, they shouldnt look like that!"

Im thinking..."Wait a minute. You never saw the head instructor fight, and the teacher that did fight was beating up on your brother (who also did kung fu)...and you're telling me that you cant trust someone who is overweight?"

That just...made me feel bad. We had thought she was interested in joining, but that was an OBVIOUS NO. I personally know my instructor is a phenomenal martial artist...But shes judging by weight. When I first walked into the school for the first time, that thought never even crossed my mind.

Hey...if she would have said "Im too attached to my other school, but it was fun." or "It just didnt fit my style..." or...whatever...fine, I could understand that. But judging by appearance? Blah.

When you guys walk into a school to check it out, does the physical appearance sway your opinion of the teacher? Even if you never see them perform?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the first thing i was gonna respond to was about her attitude in sparring. i was gonna say that you should just give it some time and either some things will start clicking for her and shell up it a level, or she wont and shel'll never ever be any better than she is right now.

then i got to the last half of your post and realized this wasn't your main point.

where the weight thing is concerned im sure plenty of people on here will bring up sammo hung. and for obvious reasons. butter bean also comes to mind. i would also note that many instructors of all styles put on a bit of weight simply because they get older. at that stage in their lives they don't train for competitions and some just don't give a ****. if they are used to moving with it, a little extra weight probably isn't going to hurt or help a player of any style in an actual confrontation to any major degree. an right fight where endurance can come into play would obviously change things.

all that said i can't help but think of one of my first instructors art east. dude probably went about 350 and didn't look a solid 350 either. to be completely honest when my friend first looked at him he thought "this tub of **** cant teach me nothing." thats almost an exact quote and when i saw him for the first time in a couple years i had similar thoughts even though i should know better. then you saw the ****er move. to this day i have never seen anyone with faster hands. he was all about jeet jun do and really like the trapping aspects of it. even mentioning trapping usually brings forth about a billion arguments against it, but if anyone could pull it off he could no problem. for one no one would ever expect him to be that ****ing fast. for two he was so big he could likely just take the hit and trap after it connected. his kicks werent so fast but he puched ridiculously hard. the one person we saw him punch outside of class literally went skidding all the way across the hood of his car and on to the other side. i eventually went my separate ways and found a school that was better suited for me, but i have nothing bad to say about the man. he was friends with gary dill who was a little odd, but i dont hold it against him.

anyway, regarding the girl, i think my original thoughts apply to this situation as well.

[joedoe]

No, but then I am a fat ******* so I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, I can understand how the perception might be that you should be trim and fit-looking if you are a serious MA. That is the expectation of most serious athletes even though it is not always the reality.

[Samurai Jack]

Maybe. It depends onhow they carry themselves and present thier art. If I saw a three hundred pound wushu teacher with a beer belly, I'd be pretty sure he had an aversion to hard work. You can't do good wushu if you're too heavy to move acrobatically. On the other hand, a ninetey pound Sumo-tori might have decent technique, but I'd question them teaching, since clearly the person wouldn't have too much experience professionally wrestling.

Bottom line is this; if you can't physically manifest the attributes necessary to perform your art with skill, how good can you really be? It sounds like this isn't the case with your teacher. Maybe your style dosen't require the practitioner to be in particularly good shape. So what. If your teacher's good, forget the scamp.

[neit]

i think "out of shape" and "extra body fat" are differnet issues. there are those lightning fast old ****s with beer bellies that are a terror on the squash court. but then trim looking 16 year olds who cannot run to the mailbox.

[ricksitterly]

i would definetly say that, through human nature, we are automatically going to judge by appearance first... then through the other aspects of a person as they reveal themselves.

being a good teacher is definetly more about knowlege and experience than physical ability to perform the art yourself. but the question always pops into my head "why is this person (fat/ scrawny/ dirty/ smelly/ out of shape/ etc. ) ?" Sometimes it is beyond a person's control, but if they're appearance is lacking simply because they're too lazy to improve on it, this definetly affects my opinion of them as a person ... and definetly as someone i'm going to be "learning" from.

this reminds me of a korean tkd instructor of mine. the man was amazingly fast and totally ripped in his late twenties. some 7 years later i saw him and he had gained 40 lbs or so and looked a bit flabby. it was truly depressing to see an old role model of yours looking so out of shape. However, just this year I saw him again and he looked better than ever! Now 36, he looked just as I remembered him at 28 yrs of age. apparently when I saw him before he was going through a "bulking up" phase and was just waiting to shed the fat and reveal even larger muscles than before... and with just as much speed. It's inspiring.

I guess the bottom line is that someone's appearance has nothing to do with their ability to teach.... it only affects your ability to listen to them.

[David Jamieson]

presupposition has closed the door of opportunity on many people.

nuff said

[red5angel]

this chick sounds like a spoiled brat in my opinion.


I have to admit when I see an overweight instructor I have to ask myself how often or how hard they are training. Maybe it doesn't matter.
However, that said, I had an instructor who was a big guy in Karate and the guy was good. He worked as hard as we did, except he ran all the classes so technically was working a lot harder.

[Chizica]

Sometimes what you see is not what it appears. I attached a picture below of a guy I studied under for three months. He had a pot belly, but it was solid as well as his forearms being solid as well. You can't tell much by the picture. I no longer study under him as he used to constantly pester us for money to help pay bills that we didn't incurr.

[Samurai Jack]

being a good teacher is definetly more about knowlege and experience than physical ability to perform the art yourself.

How do you figure that teacher will be able to demonstrate that "knowledge" if he or she can't do it? How do you determine that teacher is skilled in the first place?

The answer is, you can't. If the teacher can't do it right, chances are pretty good that you won't be able to either.

You wouldn't study algebra from a teacher who dosen't know how to multiply, why on earth would you study a martial art with someone who can't demonstrate it?

[MasterKiller]

How do you figure that teacher will be able to demonstrate that "knowledge" if he or she can't do it? How do you determine that teacher is skilled in the first place?

The answer is, you can't. If the teacher can't do it right, chances are pretty good that you won't be able to either.

You wouldn't study algebra from a teacher who dosen't know how to multiply, why on earth would you study a martial art with someone who can't demonstrate it?

Do you think Lou Holtz can run a post pattern? How well does Bill Belichek hit a receiver coming across the middle of the field?

[Gangsterfist]

Look at all the fat white trash guys with mullets on ESPN 2 doing the MA brick breaking contests.

Or the combat Ki guys, I mean look at the guy who is their master, WTF?

Dr. Painter, heard some good stuff about him, but he had obviouis photo shops on his website. blame him or the webmaster?

I went to a demo last year where a guy broke 400+ bricks in a minute. WTF does that mean?

I broke a brick once, yup just one brick, wasn't really all that hard, if you set it up right.

Bottom line, when you get older you get fatter easier. Some people have really good genetics and are just naturally in better shape over others. I work with a guy who can eat a ton of food, and he never works out, and he is skinny. He is also older than me. If I ate as much as he did and didn't work out, I'd be like 40lbs over weight.

There is a larger guy in my wing chun class, who has been doing wing chun for many years and also holds a black belt in TKD. By the looks of him, you would say he is slow and could not kick at all. However, he not only can kick me in the face with ease (im 5'10") he can also do it with speed. I would have never guessed

One of the guys I train with is like 5'5" and not very big at all, and infact his hands are tiny. He is hands down one of the deadliest guys I know.

Judge a book by its cover? I think that says it all, or, judge me by my size do you? (for all your star wars geeks).

[Chief Fox]

Physical appearance definitely sways my opinion of a kung fu instructor.

I don't question an overweight person's ability to kick my a$$ or the speed of their hands or their strength. I do question an overweight person's kicking ability, flexiblity, over all speed and agility, and cardio vascular endurance. In my opinion to be an instructor you have to have the complete package. Otherwise, how can you effectively teach an art?

Just to clarify. When I say overweight I mean way OVERweight not a person with a pot belly or someone that is carrying around and extra 20 to 30 lbs.

Just to clarify more. Being overweight is not a problem. Being so over weight that it impacts the person's ability to teach is.

[PangQuan]

I am tending to partially agree with SJ. You cant judge a book by a cover, but you can judge a martial arts teacher by physical properties. This is not saying that overweight people cannot perform martial arts. I am implying that there are deffinate physical attributes that can be seen by anyone with some MA exp. The way the teacher moves, grace, speed, footwork, power. Here are a few examples of physical properties that can be judged regardless of what weight someone is.

If I see an overweight MA instructor, I watch how he walks, his fluidity of movement. The power he radiates when demonstrating the simplest of techniques. If the individual in question moves like any other overweight schmoe then he is either doing a very good job of hiding his skill, or he doesnt have it.

We have all seen how an ungraceful, clumsy overweight person moves. And we have all seen how a well trained and articulate overweight individual moves. There is a large difference.

Generally speaking, if a MA instructor is overweight it is due to a one or two of several factors, age, laziness, genetics, or overeating. Unfortunately one is capable of falling prey to all of these handicaps.

So again as I like to say "case by case"

[Chief Fox]

Do you think Lou Holtz can run a post pattern? How well does Bill Belichek hit a receiver coming across the middle of the field?

Your example isn't really relevant. The football coaches you talk about aren't teaching their players from scratch. When a football coach says I want you to hit that guy low, the player doesn't say can you demonstrate the technique one more time.

If someone said they were a football coach you wouldn't assume that they must be a great player in order to coach. But if someone says they are a martial arts instructor you would have to assume that they must be a great martial artist in order to teach.

[MasterKiller]

Your example isn't really relevant. The football coaches you talk about aren't teaching their players from scratch. When a football coach says I want you to hit that guy low, the player doesn't say can you demonstrate the technique one more time.

If someone said they were a football coach you wouldn't assume that they must be a great player in order to coach. But if someone says they are a martial arts instructor you would have to assume that they must be a great martial artist in order to teach. Get real. :rolleyes:

[Chief Fox]

Get real. :rolleyes:

Hmm, "get real". I don't get it. Did my response not make sense or am I full of sh!t?

[Hau Tien]

In my experience, an instructor's weight has very little to do with their skill. I've known absolutely amazing martial arts instructors carrying around more than a little extra weight, and I've known crappy martial arts instructors that are lean and buff.

Take a look at http://www.emptyflower.com/video.html and you'll see "Master Zhang". Obviously carrying around some extra weight... does it seem to affect his ability? I don't think it does, but that's just my opinion.

So... to answer the question... No, I don't allow an instructor's weight to cloud my impression of them prior to seeing how that person can move.

Another point to make is that you shouldn't do the same thing to a potential opponent (in tournament or on the street) either. It could lead to an unpleasant surprise ;)

[red5angel]

In my experience, an instructor's weight has very little to do with their skill


as a generalization I would have to disagree. While I would allow for the fact that some overweight instructors can show some really good skill, there are quite a few others that are lazy and use their attainment of rank as the prop to hold their credibility up.

[Reggie1]

Did my response not make sense or am I full of sh!t?

I'd have to pick the latter ;)

How is teaching martial arts different than coaching sports? Coaches demonstrate technique all the time. If they're too old, they still know exactly what the technique looks like.

[PangQuan]

You have to look at the actual definition of the words;



Coach: (Sports) A person who trains or directs athletes or athletic teams.

Instructor: n : a person whose occupation is teaching [syn: teacher]

So a coach is not an instructor, they are very similar roles but a coach does not have to be able to perform what he coaches. He only needs to be able to acurately create visualization of what he intends. Of course a coach who can teach is the best kind of coach. It is not a requirement. Many jymnastics coaches cannot do a backhand spring or a back flip, but they can coach you with verbal explanations as to how you can achieve your goals. Often coaches will use a physical example steming from a more experienced practitioner.

[PangQuan]

example

Lamaz (spelling) coaches can be men. Even though a man will never actually be personally involved in bearing a child, they can however coach you through the labor process.

But they cannot teach you how to breast feed. They are physically incapable of teaching this skill through experience.

[MasterKiller]

You have to look at the actual definition of the words;



Coach: (Sports) A person who trains or directs athletes or athletic teams.

Instructor: n : a person whose occupation is teaching [syn: teacher]

So a coach is not an instructor, they are very similar roles but a coach does not have to be able to perform what he coaches. He only needs to be able to acurately create visualization of what he intends. Of course a coach who can teach is the best kind of coach. It is not a requirement. Many jymnastics coaches cannot do a backhand spring or a back flip, but they can coach you with verbal explanations as to how you can achieve your goals. Often coaches will use a physical example steming from a more experienced practitioner.
Main Entry: 1coach
Pronunciation: 'kOch
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
b : one who instructs or trains a performer or a team of performers; specifically : one who instructs players in the fundamentals of a competitive sport and directs team strategy <football coach>

Main Entry: in·struc·tor
Pronunciation: in-'str&k-t&r
Function: noun
: one that instructs : TEACHER;

Main Entry: teach·er
Pronunciation: 'tE-ch&r
Function: noun
1 : one that teaches; especially : one whose occupation is to instruct


But they cannot teach you how to breast feed. They are physically incapable of teaching this skill through experience. Bullsh1t. Are you saying a male doctor cannot teach a woman how to breastfeed? :rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

Ok so there seems to be a few different reference points available to us. This is a very broad term used for coach.

I guess there are different uses of this word. I have met coaches who cant play the game but can develop winning teams. How can one explain this? They cannot perform the sport but can coach it.

[PangQuan]

I got it.

No where does it specify in any deffinition that a coach MUST be able to perform what is being taught. So this would imply that coach has a very long list of sub-catigories.

[PangQuan]

Bullsh1t. Are you saying a male doctor cannot teach a woman how to breastfeed?


hehe, not through actual physical experience, no. Through coaching yes. but not through experienced based Instruction. Thus my stipulation of "through experience"

[Chief Fox]

I'd have to pick the latter ;)

How is teaching martial arts different than coaching sports? Coaches demonstrate technique all the time. If they're too old, they still know exactly what the technique looks like.

I've had some time to think about this and I've decided that I'm going to do a complete 180°. An overweight or even obese instructor/teacher/coach could be a great teacher. Technically they wouldn't have to demonstrate at all if their teaching methods were strong enough. So maybe I'm a little pedjudice against overweight people. For that I apologize. Just one more thing for me to work on.

So I WAS full of sh!t in my earlier post!

[Ford Prefect]

I bet Cus D'Amato got in there and showed Tyson exactly how to bob, weave, and work the heavy bag... :rolleyes:

[PaiLumDreamer]

Thanks for answering the general question.

My instructor isnt obese...he just has a few extra pounds. He reminds me of a bear, actually. Something I wouldnt want to get in the way of.

He can perform what he teaches :P

In the rare case that he cant (acrobatics...hes a big guy, so he has more trouble making a flashy technique look nice.) he can still explain it so that I can. He can adjust if I do it wrong, etc.

Just to clarify.

[Reggie1]

I've had some time to think about this and I've decided that I'm going to do a complete 180°. An overweight or even obese instructor/teacher/coach could be a great teacher. Technically they wouldn't have to demonstrate at all if their teaching methods were strong enough. So maybe I'm a little pedjudice against overweight people. For that I apologize. Just one more thing for me to work on.

So I WAS full of sh!t in my earlier post!

I do the same things. We had a very overweight guest sifu in from out of town a while back for a seminar. Once I saw him, I decided to skip the seminar. My first thought was that he was one of those guys who is 'all show and no go'. Might have been that he had a disease or injury and just got overweight. I doubt his being overweight affected his ability to teach, but I'm the type of person who prefers to learn from people who will 'get dirty' with you. But that's a personal preference and not a judgement of whether it is right or wrong.

[SevenStar]

I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing - if he no longer competes or trains as seriously, he will likely have put on weight. However, that doesn't discount his ability to teach you and relay his experience to you. Now, if the guy is fairly young, I may question it, as I'd wonder if he ever did any serious training or competing.

[Samurai Jack]

I bet Cus D'Amato got in there and showed Tyson exactly how to bob, weave, and work the heavy bag... :rolleyes:

Okay, you got me there. There's no way in heck that I'd want to take boxing lessons from Tyson either! Yikes!

[David Jamieson]

I dunno about that YKN.

There are many highly proficient martial artists who are heavy.

Slovenly? No. Heavy? Yes. There's a difference for me.
Having said that, none of my teachers and training partners have been 'fat'.
Most of them are either in really good muscular condition or a little on the lean side.

But then, there's sumo. lol, those guys crush other peeps.

consider that the heavy folk are also carrying a lot of weight all the time and the muscles though not defined are very strong.

Heavy and obese folk that are slovenly are just that. Up in teh northern climes a few extra pounds is a good thing to have. Winter is hard and long... like me. :D

[Ralphie]

Discipline Your Image

[SaekSan]

I was never "attracted" to a teachers physical appearence, what was most important to me was their ability to teach and produce results in their students. This is something that my parents taught me early on.

I knew a few teachers that were not in "good body shape" and could take any and all comers at any time. This was mostly due to their attitude and confidence, had little to do with what shape they were in.

I've seen people of all ages and sizes get and give he!! in fights, it's what they have inside that drives them to be who they are, good or bad.

Look for what's inside.

[Mighty Mungbean]

Since someone already beat me to the Sammo Hung reference I'll defer in an opposite direction. My sifu looks every bit of sixteen years old (well, maybe early twenties) but is actually thirty-six. He's a plastic surgeon by trade and also a member of the reserves. He is a madman, working doctor's hours and still finds time to support and nurture his school. He is by far one of the most skilled martial artists I have ever had the honor to meet. Yet, no one would suspect that given his mild mannered, school boy appearance.

I, on the other hand, am six foot three, 250 lbs, sport a six inch goatee and resemble more of a landlocked pirate than anything else. Based on appearance a match between me and sifu would look unfair. No one would understand why I ran quaking with fear, completely oblivious to the yellow and brown stains forming on my uniform.

Another case in point is one of my co-workers at the gym. Rachel is a BodyPump instructor. Sweet, petite curvy brunette. Maybe 5'4" in heels. BodyPump is a muscle endurance based class, so weights are relatively low and reps are high. She regularly squats half again as much weight as I do (and ooh how I hate her for it too...if only she weren't so ****ed cute.)

So my point is size means nothing. I've seen plenty of fat kungfu guys with superior flexibility and speed. I think the only thing a lower body weight offers (speaking as one of the big guys) is a lighter frame that makes performing some of the more athletic moves easier. My sishung is also a little guy (150 lbs.) if I set the gravitron where I'm performing pull ups at 150 lbs I can match him, but I still struggle with more than one or two pull ups at my natural body weight of 250.

[SevenStar]

If you have trained TCMA all your life and you don't want to get beaten up by a 20 years old guys during your old age then you had better keep your body in good shape.


which raises a question - what do you think constitutes good shape?

[red5angel]

I'm looking for an instructor who likes long walks on the beaches, going to movies or curling up on the sofa and cuddling. They have to be intelligent and have a job too, I'm not gold digger but I know what I like and I like to be treated right.

[David Jamieson]

will you give anal red? I know a couple of Bruces that would be right for you if you'll get eyebrows to the pillow. :D

[red5angel]

is "bruces" slang for something or do you just know a couple of guys named bruce that like to hit the pooper?

[PangQuan]

I think his "friend" "bruce" might be a cover for the real person interested.

[Samurai Jack]

will you give anal red? I know a couple of Bruces that would be right for you if you'll get eyebrows to the pillow. :D

One of 'em wouldn't happen to be named "David Jamieson" would they?

[SevenStar]

looks like the truth slipped through the crack...

[ricksitterly]

If physical appearance is a good indication of a martial arts instructor then I guess I aught to be learning from a 19 year old muscle head at the local gym.

To think I've been listening to these old, washed up, "masters". Losers.... what the he!! do they know.

[joedoe]

The thing is that carrying extra weight is not necessarily a sign of lack of fitness. A recent study showed (unfortunately I cannot give references) that an overweight person who exercised was in better shape than a trim person who did not exercise.

[joedoe]

"Kung Li" is what I'm talking about. To maintain your body ability. When you get old, you may not be able to improve any more but at least you should be able to maintain the ability that you used to have. You have spent a lots of time and effort to obtain that ability, you just don't want to lost that when you get old. After you have lost it then you may never be able to get it back for the rest of your life because time is not on your side. Getting fat to me could be the first sign that "I'll go down hill from now on" and that could scare me more than anything else.

So basically what you are saying is that under any circumstance fat = bad

[joedoe]

That is not necessarily true. There are people who basically always have some fat on them regardless of how much exercise they do - unfortunately I am one of them. There used to be a top-level rugby player in Australia about 10 years ago. He looked like a couch potato, but he could run for 80 minutes.

[Blacktiger]

We need a definition of fat :rolleyes:

[PaiLumDreamer]

Main Entry: [1]fat
Pronunciation: 'fat
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fat·ter; fat·test
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English f[AE]tt, past participle of f[AE]tan to cram; akin to Old High German feizit fat
Date: before 12th century
1 : notable for having an unusual amount of fat: a : PLUMP b : OBESE c : of a meat animal : fattened for market d : of food : OILY, GREASY
2 a : well filled out : THICK, BIG <a fat book> b : full in tone and quality : RICH <a gorgeous fat bass voice —Irish Digest> c : well stocked <a fat larder> d : PROSPEROUS, WEALTHY <grew fat on the war —Time> e : being substantial and impressive <a fat bank account>
3 a : richly rewarding or profitable <a fat part in a movie> <a fat contract> b : practically nonexistent <a fat chance>
4 : PRODUCTIVE, FERTILE <a fat year for crops>
5 : STUPID, FOOLISH
6 : being swollen <got a fat lip from the fight>
7 : of a baseball pitch : easy to hit
- fat·ness noun



Main Entry: [3]fat
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : animal tissue consisting chiefly of cells distended with greasy or oily matter
2 a : oily or greasy matter making up the bulk of adipose tissue and often abundant in seeds b : any of numerous compounds of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen that are glycerides of fatty acids, are the chief constituents of plant and animal fat, are a major class of energy-rich food, and are soluble in organic solvents but not in water c : a solid or semisolid fat as distinguished from an oil
3 : the best or richest part
4 : OBESITY
5 : something in excess : SUPERFLUITY <trim the fat from the news operation —Ray Olson>
- fat·less /-l&s/ adjective

[Becca]

Thanks for answering the general question.

My instructor isnt obese...he just has a few extra pounds. He reminds me of a bear, actually. Something I wouldnt want to get in the way of.

He can perform what he teaches :P

In the rare case that he cant (acrobatics...hes a big guy, so he has more trouble making a flashy technique look nice.) he can still explain it so that I can. He can adjust if I do it wrong, etc.

Just to clarify.
In the words of another Pai Lum sifu, "Trolls don't fly." This responce was given to the question of why he rarely did jump kicks and such. :eek: ;) :D BTW, he's a rather large man, as well. No way in hhell would I tangle with him. :cool:

[Mo Lung]

The thing is that carrying extra weight is not necessarily a sign of lack of fitness. A recent study showed (unfortunately I cannot give references) that an overweight person who exercised was in better shape than a trim person who did not exercise.I could quote you heaps of sources if I could be bothered to dig them up.

Can you be fat and fit? Yes.

Can you be thin and really, horribly unfit? Yes.

The fact that someone carries extra body fat is not a sole indicator of their overall physical condition. However, extra weight can have other effects such as increased risk of type II diabetes, joint and tendon/ligament problems, CHD, etc. However, to judge someone's martial or athletic ability simply based on their outward appearance is naive in the extreme.

Incidentally, inactivity is now the number one cause of lifestyle related premature death in the western world. That beats out obesity, smoking, drinking, drugs, etc. So, if someone is fat but they are training regularly.....

[neit]

i remember half of the "personal trainer program" students at my college were weak and chubby. what made them think anyone would ever hire them?

kung fu however is not a fitness program. being strong and healthy is a side effect. if you train hard you will be in good physical condition, wether you look it or not.

[red5angel]

The thing is that carrying extra weight is not necessarily a sign of lack of fitness. A recent study showed (unfortunately I cannot give references) that an overweight person who exercised was in better shape than a trim person who did not exercise.

LOL! Define better shape. I'm not buying it. What Ming Yu says is closer to the truth, some heavy people can indeed be in better shape then thin people, but in general fat always comes with risks.

[PangQuan]

The word Fat is just the wrong way to describe what we are talking about here. There are two catagories of people with extra weight.

1) One who is obese due to the fact of overeating, genetics, and laziness either 2 or all three. An unhealthily overweight person.

2) One who is obese due to the fact of genetics. Some people are just packing extra weight. But due to genetics they would might be unhealthy were they to not have this extra weight. Some people have a genetic predisposition to have extra weight. In other words they are supposed to be a little chubby.

Its a matter of the persons lifestyle. If they exersize, train hard and do everything needed to retain skill, endurance, and strength then they are not anywhere that they should not be in terms of physical appearance or weight. This person we can call Thick.

Now if they are lazy, eat alot of processed junk foods, sit on the couch playing nintendo and watching jerry springer, then they are just out of shape slobs. This person we can call Fat.

BIG DIFFERENCE (no pun intended) :rolleyes:

And yes there are people who in the autumn and winter years will start to slack when it comes to training, and they will put on a few extra pounds. This is just age. They reach a point where they can adapt, regardless. A few extra tires around the waist will just be a new circumstance to adapt to. They learn how to make it advantageous.

[SevenStar]

LOL! Define better shape. I'm not buying it. What Ming Yu says is closer to the truth, some heavy people can indeed be in better shape then thin people, but in general fat always comes with risks.


some people have an endomorph body type. These people will always look overweight, regardless of how fit they actually are.

[Ray Pina]

Recently I met a girl who trained eagle claw, and came from a slightly north area of Houston. When I found out she did Kung Fu, I basically bombarded her with questions. She told me a bit about her style and school, and even showed me a video.

Ok, cool. They look decent. I wont judge until I see her perform, though.

So I invite her to my school. She comes to a forms class, and does pretty decent. She lacked enthusiasm though. My Sifu said he knew her father from somewhere.

Anyway, she came back two other times...another class, and a sparring night. She fought a white sash, and our gal held her own against her. (But she beat me up, imo. lol :p :p )

Anyway, when she did fight...she would just swing her arms around. She left herself wide open a lot (she just kept punching down the middle, didnt really bring her arms back too much)...but im a nice guy, and not very aggressive at all...so I just kinda moved back and let her whack on me.

When she got hit though, she would stop, and hold her "wound". Before that she had told us to spar her like a guy...but when we barely tapped her she would get a little...whiny?

ANYWAY, im going off topic. Just trying to set the atmosphere. She was a nice girl, just high and mighty sometimes.

One day, we start talking...and she randomly brings up the fact that my instructor(s) are slightly overweight. She said she could not trust and learn from someone who looked like that.

I did a double take. "What...?"
"Yeah, if they do kung fu, they shouldnt look like that!"

Im thinking..."Wait a minute. You never saw the head instructor fight, and the teacher that did fight was beating up on your brother (who also did kung fu)...and you're telling me that you cant trust someone who is overweight?"

That just...made me feel bad. We had thought she was interested in joining, but that was an OBVIOUS NO. I personally know my instructor is a phenomenal martial artist...But shes judging by weight. When I first walked into the school for the first time, that thought never even crossed my mind.

Hey...if she would have said "Im too attached to my other school, but it was fun." or "It just didnt fit my style..." or...whatever...fine, I could understand that. But judging by appearance? Blah.

When you guys walk into a school to check it out, does the physical appearance sway your opinion of the teacher? Even if you never see them perform?

You shouldn't spar with girls. You either don't hit them and wind up getting hurt or looking bad or you do hit them and then you just hit a girl. There are plenty of guys to play with.

I know this isn't PC, and I've seen girls throw down in the ring, but compare that to a man going full blast on her?

As for your teacher, who cares? Is he teaching you good stuff?

[SevenStar]

You shouldn't spar with girls. You either don't hit them and wind up getting hurt or looking bad or you do hit them and then you just hit a girl. There are plenty of guys to play with.

I know this isn't PC, and I've seen girls throw down in the ring, but compare that to a man going full blast on her?


that's really not the right idea when it comes to sparring. if you are worried about losing or looking bad while sparring, you will never reach your full potential. sparring is merely a learning tool - an avenue to teach you to apply your skills. you learn by using that time to work what you have learned. If you focus on winning, you will eventually stagnate because you will be too focused on winning and you will use the tools that you know you can use, as opposed to branching out and trying new techniques/strategies. getting hit happens. in judo, there is a female brown belt who has thrown me a few times - no biggie - we're just practicing. We have a girl in thai boxing. it's rare that she hits me, but she has on occasion. Oh well. This is why I say that activities such as regular sparring keep an ego in check.

[Ray Pina]

It's not the winning or losing in sparring. It's the bad habits, the bad muscle memory you train in holding back.

Also, I know it's not PC, but you can also train the girl to have the wrong attitude. Maybe she does OK with your light sparring, maybe she throws you. She might stomp on the wrong guys toes, kick the wrong guy thinking she can defend herself and just **** off the rapist even more.

I know this begs the question, "well, what should she do?" I don't know. I didn't design the female body. When all else fails you have to fight. But a girl would do better to try escape.

Fueiling their ego that they can fight a man is dangerous. If you're an instructor, always holding back can be dangerous too.

[red5angel]

some people have an endomorph body type. These people will always look overweight, regardless of how fit they actually are.



sure but endomorphic doesn't mean you're fat , it just means you're heavier then the average for your body type. An Endomorph who is in good shape doesn't look fat in my opinion.
The other problem is "Endomorph" is sort of like "Rubinesque" in my book. Too many people use it as an excuse for carrying a little extra weight around. I had a freind who was a true endomorph, built like the proverbial brick sh!thouse, from head on he was practically square - but he took his shirt off and you saw the sixpack.

[SevenStar]

It's not the winning or losing in sparring. It's the bad habits, the bad muscle memory you train in holding back.

Also, I know it's not PC, but you can also train the girl to have the wrong attitude. Maybe she does OK with your light sparring, maybe she throws you. She might stomp on the wrong guys toes, kick the wrong guy thinking she can defend herself and just **** off the rapist even more.

I know this begs the question, "well, what should she do?" I don't know. I didn't design the female body. When all else fails you have to fight. But a girl would do better to try escape.

Fueiling their ego that they can fight a man is dangerous. If you're an instructor, always holding back can be dangerous too.


fueling the ego is one thing. pure skill is another. I didn't realize my typo - she's a black belt... been doing judo in germany since she was 8. She's genuinely that good. I've seen her throw several guys.

As far as "training to hold back" in the thai class, we rotate partners when we spar. in 10 rounds of sparring, one to two rounds of lighter contact will NOT be detrimental to my skill by any means. And she doesn't have to hold back on me.

[SevenStar]

sure but endomorphic doesn't mean you're fat , it just means you're heavier then the average for your body type. An Endomorph who is in good shape doesn't look fat in my opinion.
The other problem is "Endomorph" is sort of like "Rubinesque" in my book. Too many people use it as an excuse for carrying a little extra weight around. I had a freind who was a true endomorph, built like the proverbial brick sh!thouse, from head on he was practically square - but he took his shirt off and you saw the sixpack.

the typical endomorph, IME is not well defined, unless he's in absolutely great shape - they by default look chubbier than say, a mesomorph would.

[red5angel]

I'm with 7 on this. I think going light can be of some good, it helps you with control.

[joedoe]

LOL! Define better shape. I'm not buying it. What Ming Yu says is closer to the truth, some heavy people can indeed be in better shape then thin people, but in general fat always comes with risks.

Good point. I should have said that they are in better health, fitter, have less chance of heart-related disease etc.

Maybe it is because I am someone who has always carried a bit of extra weight (even when I was playing sports at a pretty high level I had a spare tyre), but I think society in general has a bad attitude towards people who do not have a trim or athletic body shape. Sure obesity is a problem, but if you are carrying a bit of extra weight it is not as bad as everyone seems to make out.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

the original poster should tell his friend to punch every fat girl shes sees and see how long it takes her to get beat up.

[David Jamieson]

I'm with 7 on this. I think going light can be of some good, it helps you with control.

It also enables you to recycle your training partners.
If ya go full blast all the time you'll run out of peeps to train with fast an dthe time between sessions will be longer due to healing periods.

Better to spar to improve as opposed to compete. Save aggression and competition for when there is money involved, or honour, or personal safety, et al.

[PaiLumDreamer]

In response to Ray Pina:

What you're saying is plain silly. If a girl WILLING COMES TO US to learn how to fight, we will give her what she wants. We dont care what you are, as long as you want to learn. Thats like saying "You shouldnt spar this person because they are at a disadvantage to you!"

I know girls that are built better than guys. I would lightly tap him, and he would fall to the ground (hes a WC guy :D ). The girls took better hits than him.

To say that I shouldnt hit girls in a controlled situation is silly. Why are they paying to learn martial arts if they dont get to test it in an active situation?

:confused:

On a lighter note...


the original poster should tell his friend to punch every fat girl shes sees and see how long it takes her to get beat up.

There are some scary fat girls at our school...they would destroy her.

Soccer girls. :eek:

[neilhytholt]

Sparring with girls -- whatever. Some girls can spar and take and get hit, and some are wuss weenies that can't. But the same can be said for some guys -- some can spar and get hit, and some are wuss weenies and can't. And some guys are angry guys that if they get hit they go out on all out vendetta. Never met a woman like that yet.

Anyways, the thing that a lot of people seem to forget is like an earlier poster said -- sparring is not to win or lose. The people who always try to win when they spar generally tend to develop bad habits of only using a couple of techniques. I did that before, and your opponents tend to learn those techniques and use it against you. Ouch.

As for the fat thing, a fat sensei / sifu / coach usually tends to mean they are in the part of their life where they aren't in as good of shape and can't function as well anymore. But that isn't always true. Fatness is no true test of skill, unless they're too fat to move well. There are fat people that can beat the stuffing out of people, especially those skinny waifs with no body mass.

So don't diss people just because they're fat. I used to do that, but I've met a lot of good, fat martial artists. That being said, I've also run into fat lardasses who get winded after about 30 seconds of sparring. But then again, I've run into musclebound guys who get winded after 30 seconds of sparring too. And skinny waifs who get winded after 30 seconds of sparring.

So maybe don't judge a book by their cover. Unless they're really fat you REALLY don't want them landing on you in grappling. OUCH.

[FngSaiYuk]

And some guys are angry guys that if they get hit they go out on all out vendetta. Never met a woman like that yet.

Heh, you've never sparred my sister & ****ed her off. I like to pop her a good one right in the face early on so she starts dolin' out full force full speed from the get go ::grin::

And hey, those martial arts instructors aren't fat, they're just filled out with chi!

[Ray Pina]

I'm just trying to paint another picture. Open up discussion.

Of course there are girls out there that are tougher than some guys .... but even a 160lbs man will have a hell of a time against a 270lbs man..... now how about a 150lbs girl?

Sure, she comes to you and pays you so you train her. But in the big scheme of things, are you helping her or hurting her by training her to kick a huge man in the balls? Will that big street thug go down? What will follow?

If she really wants to learn self defense and its not about the money, you'd get a BOB bag and train her with mace and evassive tactics. Maybe teach her how to use a knife or a gun if she's really serious. This will help her. Training her to think she can go toe to toe with a man is dangerous --- even if she can with some members of your club.

When it comes to control, you need mental control, self control. But when you shoot the gun you aim and shoot and let the bullet go. Pulling your strikes -- because that's what you're mistakingly calling control -- can be dangerous for you. We tend to be normal people. It's not in us to be vicsious. But when it comes to throwing the strike you need to reinforce the idea of wanting to bask someone's head in, not pull the strike and land lightly if at all.

I'm not talking about trainers who train fighters and they take it lighter (but still landing) to prevent injury for an upcoming fight. I'm talking about ALWAYS sparring light and thinking you're fueling the fire that you will need in a real altercation.

These two subjects are related. If anyone has a hot female student I'd be happy to come show my point. Let me hit her good, and if she goes down, hit her again real good and pin her and cop a nice feel.... doesn't sound pleasant, but this is the reality I'm talking about.

Think about it.

[red5angel]

the typical endomorph, IME is not well defined, unless he's in absolutely great shape - they by default look chubbier than say, a mesomorph would.


no but real endomorphic structure does not include fat. Endomorhps by nature are "overweight" because they typically have a heavier skeletal structure and more muscle mass around the soft fleshy parts like the stomach. Someone who is fat is not necessarily endomorphic and to be endomorphic doesn't mean your fat.



Maybe Ray and Willow Sword should exchange phone numbers, then they can talk about what women are really supposed tobe doing ;)

[SevenStar]

Sparring with girls -- whatever. Some girls can spar and take and get hit, and some are wuss weenies that can't. But the same can be said for some guys -- some can spar and get hit, and some are wuss weenies and can't. And some guys are angry guys that if they get hit they go out on all out vendetta. Never met a woman like that yet.

I have.

So don't diss people just because they're fat. I used to do that, but I've met a lot of good, fat martial artists. That being said, I've also run into fat lardasses who get winded after about 30 seconds of sparring. But then again, I've run into musclebound guys who get winded after 30 seconds of sparring too. And skinny waifs who get winded after 30 seconds of sparring.



yeah, anaerobic/aerobic capacity really isn't dependent on how much muscle you have or lack.

[SevenStar]

no but real endomorphic structure does not include fat. Endomorhps by nature are "overweight" because they typically have a heavier skeletal structure and more muscle mass around the soft fleshy parts like the stomach. Someone who is fat is not necessarily endomorphic and to be endomorphic doesn't mean your fat.

I don't disagree. I can't count the number of people I've met who claim they are overweight because they are merely "big boned-ed"



Maybe Ray and Willow Sword should exchange phone numbers, then they can talk about what women are really supposed tobe doing ;)

:D

..........

[red5angel]

I don't disagree. I can't count the number of people I've met who claim they are overweight because they are merely "big boned-ed"

that's exactly what I'm talking about! :P

[Ray Pina]

I certainly don't want to tell anyone -- male or female -- what they should or shouldn't do.

I just think it can be dangerous for your typical young lady -- and Red -- to get it into their heads that they can trully fight with a crazed or well trained man. Teaching them to do so is somewhat irresponsible.

You wouldn't train an unarmed soldier to storm a fortification -- he is under-armed, not equipded. To train a little girl -- or Red -- to stomp on a man's toes or kick him in the balls or poke his eyes is of the same thing ..... not to mention to train them to trade blows.

That's all I'm saying. When I live with a woman, I help out as an equal with chores. When a big angry man knocks on the door at 3:00 a.m., who should go answer?

[red5angel]

I certainly don't want to tell anyone -- male or female -- what they should or shouldn't do.

I just think it can be dangerous for your typical young lady -- and Red -- to get it into their heads that they can trully fight with a crazed or well trained man. Teaching them to do so is somewhat irresponsible.

You wouldn't train an unarmed soldier to storm a fortification -- he is under-armed, not equipded. To train a little girl -- or Red -- to stomp on a man's toes or kick him in the balls or poke his eyes is of the same thing ..... not to mention to train them to trade blows.

That's all I'm saying. When I live with a woman, I help out as an equal with chores. When a big angry man knocks on the door at 3:00 a.m., who should go answer?



that's not what you said. this is what you said:


You shouldn't spar with girls. You either don't hit them and wind up getting hurt or looking bad or you do hit them and then you just hit a girl. There are plenty of guys to play with.

Refusing to spar with a woman because she's a woman and telling her not to attack a crazed man or two completely different things. We're talking about sparring, not self defense here Ray and you disaprove of sparring with women, don't try to make it into a self defense thing. Or is this like the I want to fight but I won't fight thing?

[Ray Pina]

Red, think before you type.... why do you think I don't like to spar with girls?

It's masturbation! You can't hit them for real, with true power, so you just wind up being a punching bag. It's not good for them and its not good for me. If they want to really fight they need to find another girl or find a guy who doesn't mind unloading on a girl with full power ..... I do mind. Why would I punch a girl when I can be fighting guys and not holding back and really pushing myself.

This is not to say it's "bad" or "wrong" to light spar with a girl. I just said why I don't think it's a favorable practice for everyone involved.

But Red, if you want to go spar a bunch of girls in preparation for our fight I highly incourage it.

[Ray Pina]

you disaprove of sparring with women, don't try to make it into a self defense thing. Or is this like the I want to fight but I won't fight thing?

As for your second comment, I'll post you some footage of the fights I haven't been doing after I add Sunday's Throwdown to the mix. I'll figure out how to put some clips together and post it Red so you can get an idea of what I'm going to bring to you when I can get out there. There is a company Artistic Finishes by you, the one I wen to visit last time ..... please, do all your painting and chores in advance.

I'll be in Europe next month and some running around but will try to get out to you in about 3 months. Work on your cartwheel kick.

[SevenStar]

I'm just trying to paint another picture. Open up discussion.

Of course there are girls out there that are tougher than some guys .... but even a 160lbs man will have a hell of a time against a 270lbs man..... now how about a 150lbs girl?

Sure, she comes to you and pays you so you train her. But in the big scheme of things, are you helping her or hurting her by training her to kick a huge man in the balls? Will that big street thug go down? What will follow?

If she really wants to learn self defense and its not about the money, you'd get a BOB bag and train her with mace and evassive tactics. Maybe teach her how to use a knife or a gun if she's really serious. This will help her. Training her to think she can go toe to toe with a man is dangerous --- even if she can with some members of your club.

This is an area you really can't get into, because now we are making too many assumptions.

1. the woman WANTS to learn self defense... people train for different reasons
2. that our classes don't already entail awareness training and drills
3. that her biggest threat is a man - she could be a jailer in a women's prison or something.
4. that a kick to the balls is part of the training. I personally (using myself as an example) preach against this.


When it comes to control, you need mental control, self control. But when you shoot the gun you aim and shoot and let the bullet go. Pulling your strikes -- because that's what you're mistakingly calling control -- can be dangerous for you. We tend to be normal people. It's not in us to be vicsious. But when it comes to throwing the strike you need to reinforce the idea of wanting to bask someone's head in, not pull the strike and land lightly if at all.

I agree. my point in that post was that 2 rounds of light contact with a woman is not hurting us. We go hard contact with eachother and most of us compete. We have no problems with hitting hard. If I have to lighten my strikes so that a woman can learn, I have no qualm with that. It's not hurting me at all, and at the same time, it's helping her. she does not have to pull her strikes at all.


These two subjects are related. If anyone has a hot female student I'd be happy to come show my point. Let me hit her good, and if she goes down, hit her again real good and pin her and cop a nice feel.... doesn't sound pleasant, but this is the reality I'm talking about.

Think about it.

nothing wrong with that - it happens. But you have to look at it another way - if that woman has no clue what to do when she's on her back, then she's as good as raped. on the other hand, if she has some idea, she may be able to do SOMETHING that can get her up and out of there quickly. MA training is not a guarantee of anything, it only serves to give you a better chance. that applies to men as well.

[red5angel]

As for your second comment, I'll post you some footage of the fights I haven't been doing after I add Sunday's Throwdown to the mix. I'll figure out how to put some clips together and post it Red so you can get an idea of what I'm going to bring to you when I can get out there. There is a company Artistic Finishes by you, the one I wen to visit last time ..... please, do all your painting and chores in advance.

I'll be in Europe next month and some running around but will try to get out to you in about 3 months. Work on your cartwheel kick.


yeah I know, you've been to some throwdowns. Now you're organizing a little sparring match, big fukking deal. All the tough talk about not fighting unlss you get 500$ in advance and how you won't play with rules and al that crap and yu're gonna post som vid of some sparring matches? Do they last longer then a 1:48?

So you're a tough guy and a sexist eh? Is that something your master teaches you or is that just soemthig you were born with?

[Ray Pina]

Seven, I agree with you and I know you're training helps you take care of yourself. You know what you're doing. A lot of my posts are playing Devil Advocate for folks out there who might not be trained like you are.

Someonme competing like you obviously can hit hard on demand.

A girlfriend of mine is moving out to Queens in a few weeks and she has no desire to learn any self defense but I'm getting her MACE and going to use a small water bottle to teach her how keep distance and spray, or at the worst use a stiff arm to create space and spray ..... it's something, but she's 115lbs. and a wet noodle. She's pretty much a sweet girl from the suburbs and defenseless (I like this about her). She acts bad a$$, but she aint hurtin' anyone.

[SevenStar]

easy guys, less insulting, more discussion

[red5angel]

I'm done with surfer boy till he get's out here, unless he starts spouting crap again. I may not be able to control myself.

[PangQuan]

While on the topic of sparring women...I may be mistaken but back in china (not remembering specific time period) wasnt it common to have no seperation between men and women when it came to fighting? I think this was brought about because women sometimes were victorious.

[Chief Fox]

I spar women. There aren't many at my school but I spar the ones that are there. Does this benefit me in any way? The women are small and fast so it does work my reflexes a little but does it really benenfit me? No it doesn't.

So why do I spar them? Because it benefits them. Who is a woman going to be attacked by, another female their own size or a larger stronger male?

For me kung fu is just as much about teaching as it is about learning. If I'm in a situation where I can learn something, I learn. If I'm in a situation where I can help someone else in my class I try to help. I find that while helping others I gain more understanding of a technique and also learn about myself.

Kung Fu, especially in a class environment, can't always be, me, me, me. Helping others to understand a technique or to have a better fighting strategy also helps you.

Not helping a woman because you feel that it doesn't help you is irresponsible and selfish.

Just my 2 cents.

[red5angel]

do you guys really think that sparring women doesn't do anything for you? Are all you sparring matches balls to the wall no holds barred to the death matches?

[PangQuan]

I will sparr anything, just for the record. Men, women, cats, dogs, trees, walls, air, myself. It doesnt matter to me. If I can hit it I will. (sept the cats tho, I go easy on those little guys, they cut you if'n ya dont)

[FatherDog]

I'm 195 lbs and pretty muscular. There are guys at my gym that weigh 130 soaking wet. If I refused to spar with them because it "didn't do anything for me" I'd get called an arrogant ****head, and rightly so.

I'm trying to figure out why having the same attitude towards sparring with women is in some way more acceptable.

[red5angel]

Because Fatherdaog, haven't you heard? Women are weaker 2nd class citizens, some of the forum members say so.

[Ray Pina]

I'm 195 lbs and pretty muscular. There are guys at my gym that weigh 130 soaking wet. If I refused to spar with them because it "didn't do anything for me" I'd get called an arrogant ****head, and rightly so.

I'm trying to figure out why having the same attitude towards sparring with women is in some way more acceptable.

For me, I'll a punch a 130 lbs guy right in his face -- with or without gloves -- if he desires to spar with me. I won't deck a girl.

[wdl]

I'm 6'1, 210. Some of the best fighters I've ever gotten to fight with were in the 120-140lb class. I'll fight with someone that size anytime.

-Will

[Ray Pina]

So you're a tough guy and a sexist eh? Is that something your master teaches you or is that just soemthig you were born with?

Red, I am not a tough guy. I'm a nice guy.

I'm not a sexist, I'm a gentleman.

Red, my problem with you is this: you type a bunch of crap -- insult people's training, beliefs (I am a Taoist and believe in what I'm studying), even their wives -- from behind the safety of the computer. This is cowardly and shows no honor or class. You've mouthed off to me several times and we are martial artists so I'm calling you on it again ...... hopefuly this time you can make it. Last time you were a punk. And I know you'll either be a punk this time or feel the pressure to fight and I'll beat you really good. It's that simple...... while you're typing I'm figthing. What do you think is going to happen?

I've tried to be nice to you. You can be a man and apologize and we can be cool. But if you are going to talk to me that way, and I have the means to come see you, I will.

Is this not fair?

[PangQuan]

I will not fight a woman, unless she forces me to. I will sparr with a woman any day of the week.

Fighting and sparring are different. I am lucky enough to be able to withdraw valuable experience from anything I do. I look at every moment as a lesson in the overall school of life. Sparring a woman has deffinate teaching possiblities, and lessons. You just have to be able to find them. Look hard.

[Ray Pina]

I understand what you're saying.

It's just even in sparring, I feel if you are not landing those shots you are not programming the correct distancing and intention into your muscle memory .... so maybe this is an anti-sparring thread on my behalf.

I'll roll with a woman if she just wants to do locking (preferably no gi :) ); how's that?

[PangQuan]

I'll roll with a woman if she just wants to do locking (preferably no gi :) ); how's that?

lol, Im game myself, depends on her, um, form though.

[red5angel]

Ray, from time to time, for whatever reason you can be a nice guy. But somewhere on this thread you decided to take shots at me for whatever reason and I'm sick of your bi-polar personality. You took personal shots for me because you don't like my stance on some of your beliefs instead of talking to me directly about it. For that you can fukk off. You want respect you gotta earn it. A lot of people on this board - hold a poll if you like - gotta believe you're trying way to hard to get poeple's resepct with this tough guys attitude. You talk liek all you do is fight in the back aleys, anything less just ain't worth it but you gotta get real here pal. If you were training half as hard as the image you're trying to project you woulda gone more then a minute and a half in that ring bucko.
You're all full of **** and vinegar when it comes to claiming you want to fight, yet half this forum spent a good 10 pages or so giving you ideas on how to do that, and where to go and you had some excuse for everyone. How do you think that looks? I tried to have some patience with it while everyone else was busting your balls and the cheap shots on this forum are how you repay me? The tough guy attitude I can swallow with a grain of salt, there's a lot of that on here, but the flip flopping personality and the always blathering on about the secrets and the stuff you got that no one else has has got old. It's been the same thing for 5 years over three different screen names. When's it gonna end Ray? When are you gonna stop? Take a tip from some of the guys on here that actually are pushing the envelope. Do you see 7*, MP, Monkeyslaptoo, Ross all talking tough constantly and telling people they got the secrets that are going to take them through NHB and the gracies? you respect them then pay attention to who they are.

[FatherDog]

For me, I'll a punch a 130 lbs guy right in his face -- with or without gloves -- if he desires to spar with me. I won't deck a girl.

That doesn't make it bad for women to spar, or to spar with women; it just makes you an idiot.

[red5angel]

That doesn't make it bad for women to spar, or to spar with women; it just makes you an idiot.


be careful FD, he'll punch 195 lb dudes right in the face too, gloves or no gloves.

[neilhytholt]

Okay, so this is one guy's opinion, but what I've found is that girls are best with light weapons, taiji sword, needles, deerhorn knives, etc. Much better than most guys.

So if I ever want to practice against fast light weapons, I usually seek out a chick.

But if I wanted to spar hard contact, I wouldn't seek out a chick, unless I didn't want to get hurt. Which, especially after you've been banged up a bit sparring by the last guy, is sometimes the case.

But that's just one guy's opinion.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

that ***** from *******.

nuff said.

[FatherDog]

be careful FD, he'll punch 195 lb dudes right in the face too, gloves or no gloves.

If he can do it over the internet, he should patent it and make millions.

[Mr Punch]

...I feel if you are not landing those shots you are not programming the correct distancing and intention into your muscle memory ...Distancing has nothing to do with muscle memory.

Intention has very little to do with muscle memory.

If you are just talking about light contact sparring being pointless compared to ful, I think you're wrong too. In wing chun chi sao, we usually use 'empty power', so you don't actually drive the shot it, you just let it dissipate. It's a useful skill for practising without protection. Someone I know (with a lot of exp in many arts) challenged his sifu to show that these empty, relatively powerless strikes could be done at short range in a pressure situation to do some damage. He got his ribs broken.

If you are in a street fight and you pull your punches because that's what you do in sparring, you're a special kind of idiot, and Darwinism is the only thing for you.

[Mr Punch]

And incidentally, if a woman wants to spar full-contact and knows what it entails, and has practised enough to be able to, that's nobody else's business.

[gfx]

It has more to do with social expectations than gender differences. Guys are brought up doing much more physical and contact oriented activities, sports, etc. Hence we are much more used to the idea of getting hit. While girls are generally less physically active, and hence are unaccustomed to receive pain. This is the GENERAL case, of course there are plenty of exceptions. However, to refuse to recognize this difference is...well, naive. ( I'll be gentle )

The problem I found with sparring girls is that, you can't really hit them with any reasonably amount of force, or they'll be shocked and with their moral broken, plus hating you forever, and hence eliminate any possible future um, developments with her. :D However, they will always come at you with full force trying to take your head off. Sparring with girls usually is an exercise in frustration.

Incidentally, I was doing randori with a girl from Korea in Judo. She had done Judo for ten years, and was technically superior to me in every way. She was actually much more aggressive than me in fighting for grips, and just totally kicked my ass.

I strongly believe that it has more to do with the person's upbringing than anything else.

[neilhytholt]

Some women are excellent grapplers. Plus, if you're a guy, sometimes you're too busy trying to avoid, um, certain parts of their body that they can kick your butt. Happened to me once, too.

I found the best thing in Judo ground grappling with women is to just avoid everything except for their arms and neck. That avoids the entire breast/butt issue, and their legs, which can be strong and a problem.

Just go for the choke. They usually lack upper body strength.

[joedoe]

All the girls I spar with take their shots like everyone else. Sometimes it might bring tears to their eyes, but they just bite the bullet and keep going. They understand that if they want to spar with the boys, then they have to expect to get hit as well. I only ever hit with the same power they use on me, and avoid hitting the head too hard, but everything else goes at an equal power level to what they are using. I treat it as an opportunity to train my timing, distance, and speed rather than power.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

While girls are generally less physically active

i dunno man you might want to tell that to my five year old girl who does cheering, gymnastics, dance, and now soccer. the first three are all under one roof so im not tring to kill her with activities, but there are plenty of parents just like that at her school.

[David Jamieson]

I thought we were talking lard ass teacher vs non-lard ass teacher and who is better?

when did this become a boys vs girl thread again???

come on guys, stay on topic.

Having said that, I have never had an MA teacher in any art that was overweight.
But I have trained with some guys who could be considered overweight and it took nothing from their ability to apply their skills.

Now, would I study with a guy who had beer and pizza stains on his shirt? I don't know, It would really depend on what he had to show. If adept at it, yes, I would be all eyes and ears. If blatantly mechanically incorrect, sayonara, but I could say the same about thin ass pencil necks too. BTW, I have witnessed thin ass pencil necks who call themselves sensei or sifu and probably shouldn't. THey'll get schooled eventually I'm sure. Or maybe not, I don't actually give too much of a sh1t about it to be frank. :p

In the end, it has little to do with weight and more to do with doing the doings.

[SPJ]

When people get into middle age in 30's or 40's, they usually gain weight overall.

I tend to look at the skills and easiness, the teachers move and step than the body shapes or muscle masses.

True. The teachers that teach 12 Lu Tang Tui or bounce leg or swamp leg will have a good shape of the legs. because they kick in almost every step and land.

The teachers that teach Qin Na or Shuai Jiao may have strong hand grips and upper arms and back.

The Southern fist and Shaolin fist teachers may have good upper bodies.

If you practice a lot of Qi Gong, usually your tummie is not "buldging". because you breathe in and out deep and wide with tummie contracting and relaxing.

If you want to have 6 packs, you may need to practice to develop the muscles specifically for looks and that would be body building.

True, if you engage in some physical activity or any sports, your body shape would be better overall.

Dance, swim and many others may make you in a better shape and look nice, too.

I was impressed by many middle aged and senior moving easily, smoothly and swiftly in Tai Chi, Ba Gua and other MA practice every morning in Taipei city parks.

And they came in different physical shapes, tall, short, wide, thin etc.

:D

[SPJ]

My point is that 6 packs may not equate to MA skills. Other muscle masses may or may not?

:D

[ricksitterly]

hmmm... so lets take it a step further.

For those of you who have a MA instructor who is "hot sh--" (in body and skill).... what if he suffered a debilitating injury? Say a permanent knee injury (fairly common in martial arts). Now they simply cannot train. Can you no longer learn anything from this person? Are they unable to pass on the knowlege from their years of experience?

My point is that the shape someone is in now, at this moment, is of little importance. It's a poor indication of what kind of shape they WERE in while training. If you guys think you can preach the ideals of kung fu from an internet forum, then there's no reason why some over-the-hill martial arts instructor can't do it in his own school... no matter how out of shape.

Lets not be so superficial.

[SevenStar]

it's not necessarily shallowness. If I know that joey lardass was an awesome competitor in his day (by his record) and He's training quality guys now, that's one thing. But, if I were to just walk into his school and he told me of his accomplishments and they couldn't be verified, I wouldn't take the chance on him.

[David Jamieson]

rick, why do you think knee injuries are common in martial arts.

none of my teachers have knee problems and the training methods from each of them doesn't lead to it either.

I agree you can learn from someone who can no longer "do". But then, there is a guy who practices daily near me who is 80+, in good shape and still moves with grace and fluidity and has no extra pounds on him.

No, he ain't about to be the next greatest thing in the UFC, but if I still move as well as that should I reach his age, then I'm doing it right.

There are plenty of people who train incorrectly as well and this shows to someone with an eye that they have gained from the correct method over time.

If ya know, ya know. Leave the doubt to the doubters.

spj- a 6 pack doesn't equate to skill I agree, but obesity is obesity and that translates for what it is. A person who doesn't take care of themself can hardly be expected to take care of you in your learning path. Better to start at the obvious outward experience and over time move to the inward knowing.

at least from my point of view. Otherwise, people can do as they will.

[SPJ]

Such is the fact of life.

I have 2 cousins. They were good basket ball players. And yes, they were great when in prime age. And time waits for no man. One became a coach for women basket ball team. The other ran a business to sell shoes and tennis rackets. He also ran and won several terms as Taipei city councilman.

There were no problems with verifications. Because there are video and records from high school team all the way to the last game they were in.

True. If a dentist has bad teeth; if a fitness teacher is not fit; if a dancer is out of shape; if a hair dresser has bad hairs; if --

You can't really preach anything in any internet forum. You may share some thoughts and ideas.

Because everything may be argued back and forth, since it is not a timed debate with judges.

:D

[SevenStar]

I think knee injuries are somewhat art specific. they are very common in judo...grappling in general, but judo specifically. I don't know of too many cma with severe knee injury.

[David Jamieson]

You can't really preach anything in any internet forum.

ya coulda fooled me bud, lol. People preach in the forums all the time.

Bow down before the god you serve and all that. yuk yuk