The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

[Firehawk4]

What influence did the tiger and leopard styles have on Pak Mei White Eyebrow in structure stances forms concepts principles and techniques ?

[Soykuil]

In YKM, the tiger influence is in our back, as soon as we hunch our back we are ready to pounce, i guess, on our opponent and have the mentality to attack and maim. the leopard is in the eyes. always being aware of our surroundings and focused.

[Pakmei]

Interesting post! This could go down many routes. :)

On a very basic level.

From my point of view, on a spiritual level the 'Tiger' influence is in having the courage, the strength of your own mind, as to know when to fight or not. It's about having a controlled aggression in a potentially dangerous situation.
As my Sifu says "Pak Mei's aggression is similar to having a controlled madness, that you can switch on and off at any time".

The 'Leopard' influence is in it's changeability (if that is a word!), by this I mean that you should be able to change tactics at the blink of an eye, or if for some reason we make a mistake in attacking, having the ability to change tactics quickly to rectify the situation before the opponent can capitalise on our mistake.

On a physical level, the 'Tiger' influence is fairly obvious in the way that the techniques are applied in a fast, ferocious manner, just like a 'tiger going for the kill'.

The 'Leopard' influence is seen in the footwork and the way we advance, retreat and dodge with speed, balance, dexterity and stability.

That should start everyone off! :)

[Yum Cha]

I think Dave laid it out pretty well. I concur with his spiritual concepts and physical manifestations.

Tiger is focussed direct and supremely powerful, leopard is more elusive and uses more lateral, or evasive movement. Tiger: pounce, crush and kill. Leopard: maim and deconstruct.

I think concepts like tiger claw hand, or tiger stepping are only very minor components in the realisation of these physical and spiritual concepts.

I can't say one way or the other for sure if this is the same "animal theory" as shaolin based styles. That would be an interesting extention to this thread perhaps.

[Pakmei]

Interesting point that Yum Cha raised about the animal theory in Shaolin based styles.

Ofcourse, in Pak Mei there is the poem that states:
"Immortals instruct the Dragon, Crane and Snake; Pak Mei transmits the Tiger and Leopard"

So from this couplet, we can see the 'Shaolin Chan Buddhist theory' that already exists within the Pak Mei system. However, I feel that these ideals of the Tiger and Leopard are more to do with the body mechanics, concepts, principles and strategies in the way that we play the style.

Another viewpoint on the Tiger is that its mental attitude to a confrontation or while on the prowl for a kill. The concept behind this is that if you decide to fight with someone then the mental attitude is that you take the fight directly to the person concerned. You should not be to concerned about getting into the fight but once you decide to fight, then have the courage of your own convictions and strength of mind, to know that what you have decided, is the correct path to go down.

Not very many people can handle having the fight being taken directly to them, as most people would expect you to back down, be diplomatic, etc and this is where the Tiger spiritual aspect is strongest.... it learns to intimidate through its physical and mental presence, secure in its mind that he controls his destiny.

The Leopard on the other hand is more concerned about elusiveness, camoflage, deception..... however, if the Lepard in the wild feels that he has been spotted then it attacks to primiarily get out of danger and back to a position where he can survey the territory..... but how does this concept apply to Pak Mei.

Well there is the thought about quickness of mind or wit. This would mean that sometimes within a confrontation, we get to enmeshed with the opponent. So the concept could be to strike quickly, forcibily and retreat to a safer distance where we can take stock of the situation and observe the opponent from a different perspective.

There is also another view that the Tiger and Leopard is an embodiment of Yin and Yang. Tiger being the Yang aspect that portrays the male, hardness, strength, courage, power, etc and the Leopard being the Yin aspect the female, softness, decisiveness, agility, etc. So we have the completeness of Yin and Yang that is portrayed in two of the most powerful animals.

Maybe Yum Cha or some of the other Pak Mei people can expand upon this. :)

[Firehawk4]

Hi Guys this is exactly what i was wanting to here , good post from all you guys .

[fiercest tiger]

YKM Late Master Leung Cheung (My Sifu) said that the Tiger and Leopard is basically the Mortals or represnts the Sifu OF the system. Our T-Shirts only have the Tiger and Leopard coming from the YKM emblem. These 2 animals show the speed, power, evasivness, internal strength spirit, eyesight (vision), skills. Both these animals fight differently and set up there catch using different stratagies. Leopard Vision or head represents the cats night vision and is best of all cats vision. It is very strong in the neck and upper back as it pulls its prey up trees from larger beast and prey. Its subtleness and agility is also better then a tiger!

Tiger is thicker and stronger and usually over powers the prey with stealth and more aggressive manner, courage, it is more external of the 2 animals also. It also swims better then most cats and is is the largest species of cats. Powerful limbs and flexable back bone help to power the animal. Represents patience and endurance.


Anyway these 2 combined as a fighting system or theory is pretty cool to get the person to get a good mindset of how to be in a fight.

hope this helps?

Gaz

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys,
Dave - I've had the alter translated as such: "Sifu teaches the Tiger and Leopard, the immortals teach the essence of Pak Mei."

Obviously, the significance of the difference of the two translations is the use of the other "animals" that complete the Shaolin 5 animals allusion. This is why I question the inclusion of the animal theory as being the same as the Shaolin theory. I'm no Chinese character scholar, and I know there are several ways to read each one, so I guess I'm only reiterating "hearsay". I know the Vietnamese lineage has integrated it, I'm not so sure about other lines.

To me, this means that Sifu teaches you the physical aspects of the art, but the immortals teach you the essence of its application - understanding. An implied development of spirit and intuition. In our class, students are pushed not to lean on Sifu or Si Hings to develop their art. They are taught from the beginning that excellence in Pak Mei depends on their own efforts, their own interpretations and their own application of what they are taught. Thus, perhaps, the reason for so many Pak Mei players having such distinct "Personal" style?

Otherwise Dave, I agree totally with your observations, as I said before, we're on the same page. I think its pretty simple and straightforward.

Gary - I think the direct relationship between eyes, back, and other physical attributes is more in line with the Shaolin philosophy, and I know Sifu Cheung Leung used to call it Shaolin Yau Kung Mun, and SiGung Har came from Hung Gar background, where it was certainly applied.

Relating the Tiger and Leopard to Yang and Yin concepts is an interesting proposition, and perhaps merits a bit of reflection...and after all, its all about this "reflection", to some extend.

[fiercest tiger]

The Internal Sets of YKM are SHAOLIN so thats why the 5 animals i suppose. Hung gar also uses them as well alot of systems even non shaolin. Shaolin YKM is connected to shaolin same as Bak Mei so thats why some like vietnam use shaolin 5 animal theory as well. I guess even Omie Daoist arts use 5 animal theories so i belive that maybe the 5 animals dont belong to just any religious sect or system it can apply just like 5 elements which its combined anyway.

This was told to me by Late Ha Kwok Cheung with the Alter the tiger and leopard is the sifu and students, the chi kung aspects are the immortal side of the art. Therefore IMHO if you Bak Mei OR YKM dont use the hei gung the spiritual side is missing then it doesnt contain the Dragon, crane and snake...

FT

[Yum Cha]

Hi Gary,
What do you think? Will any Hei Gung work? Or, does it have to be the Pak Mei hei gung?

Do all hei gung train the same skills, or do different hei gung train different skills...
Does Yau Kung Mun hei gung train different skills than Pak Mei hei gung, as we know they are different.

Is the question really, how do you commune with the immortals? How do the "spirits" or the "ancestors" teach you? Are they external forces, or are they part of you, internal...

Is spirit the same as spiritual?

Pretty esoteric ground...too esoteric for a Kau La, Sut Choi Donkey like me... :p

[Pakmei]

Hi Guys,
Pak Mei Hei Gung - Five Elements of the Earths Force aka Five Elements Hand Skills, is said to be the concluding internal training that is taught only after the practitioner has learnt and understood the Mung Fu Chu Lum - Fierce Tiger comes out of the Woods / Forest.

My understanding of this set, is that it is predominantly a meditation exercise, that helps root the four dynamics with the six powers and most importantly trains the correct mindset. I know that Cheung Lai Chuen had passed it on to his 'late' son Cheung Bing Faat and possibly Cheung Bing Lam, as they can demonstrate power like I've never seen before.

However, this aspect of the system hasn't been passed on to many disciples. Well this is my understanding anyway.

Personally, coming from and being an acupuncturist and tuina practitioner, I have had to practise hei gung very extensively and in particular a system called "Shaolin Nei Jin Qi Gung - Shaolin Internal Force". I have practised this particular system now for 4 years solidly, and the one thing that my Sifu said to me when I was in Hong Kong was how much power I am now generating in my Pak Mei, by combining the principles of what I have learnt and analysed from the Hei Gung into my Pak Mei techniques.

So I certainly don't think that you have to learn the 'Pak Mei Hei Gung' to get to internal aspect of the style, but I do think that the Hei Gung that you practise should in some way, have the same principles of softness and hardness, so that you can relate it to the practice of Pak Mei.

So to me the 'Immortal' aspect is like what you say Yum Cha, it is more to do with self practice, analysis and realisation - the Sifu, Si Hings can only do and show you so much, but the rest of the journey must be made by the student on their own, through their own interpretation and ability.

However, in todays society, we live in a world where students want to be shown everything but can not be bothered to work for it, and thus showing a lack of respect towards to the Sifu and the Ancestors before them, who through their own perseverence have kept the style alive.

[fiercest tiger]

Personally i would prefer to learn my systems hei gung then others to add to the system although if you dont know or have the Systems Hei gung that you learn then you have no choice but to learn someone elses. I prefer the styles hei gung than anyone elses!

Anyway, i personally believe that the systems hei gung was ment for certain Gings and health benifits thats why i wouldnt do anyone elses because the other arts hei gung may develop a different Ging. So im just trying to keep it intacked with the art!

I can see Mung Fu done at a Taiji pace for Hei Gung better then doing it fast!


Pak Mei,

What type of internal force does the Hei Gung give?

FT

[Pakmei]

Hi FT,
It not a case of adding someone else's hei gung into Pak Mei. Thats not what I have done.... I have used the concepts and principles of this particular set to help enhance my own understanding of the Pak Mei techniques, as this system uses that same soft and hard qualities as Pak Mei.

The system of Qi Gong that I have learnt is from becoming a tuina practitioner and is the standard 'medical qi gong' set that is taught and practiced by traditional tuina practitioners in China and abroad.

It's designed to help the practitioner project qi out and as well as absorb qi, primairily by the hands and in particular laogong P8 and chongchung P9. Though through the practice of this set, you begin to learn to lead to qi to any part of the body at will, in order to treat the person that your working on.

However, with this set in particular, it does strengthen the body extremely quickly (similar to the Yi Jin Jing) not just on the musculo-skeletal system but the internal system as well, without having an adverse effect on the person speed, flexibility and/or agility. In essence this set gives the practitioner a better understanding of how to draw energy from the floor through the point YongQuan K1, so thatit can be utilised by the body.

This is what I have personally observed in myself, through my own diligent practise and training, and whats more has been noticed by my Sifu and Si Bak Gung Cheung Bing Lam when I was in Hong Kong in January.
On this point, I have actually physically demonstrated my level of understanding in this area to both my Sifu and Si Bak Gung when I treated them for certain complaints and both have felt me manipulating their qi by creating sensations at differents parts of the body.

I've actually taught this set to some patients that are athletes in their own field of sport (competitive gymnasts, professional dancers, etc) and all have come back to me with positive comments about their increased levels of endurance, strength and overall fitness.... regardless of their particular discipline of sport.

However, I've now diverged from what you were asking and I understand what your saying with regards to practising the styles/systems hei gung set.... but its all to easy to limit your own understanding by just practising the systems hei gung. Reason why I say this is, I've seen many people in CMA teach qi (hei) gong and not really unserstand what it is they themselves are teaching, nor do they have a concept of qi and how it works within their own system.

What your actually training essentially is, how to co-ordinate your breathing with your body movement to enhance your ging. So the style's hei gung is developed to its body shape and movement. But in the case of doing Mang Fu Chu Lam slowly for hei gung purposes, I have to disagree here.

The form itself is supposed to be fast because by the time you have learnt up to Sahp Baa Morr Kiu Kuen, the practitioner is able to open the 3 gates in the arms, but at this point the practitioner can still pull the ging but the Fierce Tiger form is designed to release the ging in an instant of the strike.

Once the ging has been released its not possible to pull it back, hence why this particular form is so closely guarded and not taught to very many people for obvious reasons.

Personally, I believe that you should practise the systems own particular hei gung, but if the person doesn't know how to teach it or does really understand it, then that can be a very dangerous and volatile combination.

[mantis108]

Hi Dave,

Hope all is well with you. Very well said about the subject. Thanks for sharing such invaluable info with the community. I for one appreciate it a lot.

Warm regards

Robert

[Pakmei]

Alright Robert,
Thanks for your kind words m8.
Long time since I seen you post on here. How you doing?

Everything with is cool m8. My Sifu gave me official permission to teach, develop and promote Pak Mei here in London and the UK.... so I'm pleased as punch here.

My classes begin in a couple of weeks, so its something to look forward to. Though it will be quite a lot of hard work at the same time.

Have to say, I quite like this thread as its got a good potential to travel down many routes of exploration and discussion.... as everyones views and perceptions are valid.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the comments, i have to disagree also due to the fact that i would have to see Mung Fu displayed to say yes or no about the ging as everyone is different when demonstarting it. The hei gung builds and stores the chi that is developed from the internal set, released with the principles of your system. The mung fu form doesnt do anything apart from using relaxed force to shock like any other o believe but the true hidden chi within cannot be seen so some people can hit hard with no shock force or snapping force just totally relaxed body. Whats better??? Its up to the person to find out and use!!

YKM have internal standing forms, sitting and standing meds all for health, ging, and healing chi. The Bak Mei was added to YKM, but the true YKM is only the internal forms and meds, Dit dar. I also learn other arts of Daoist internal kung fu such as Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng. www.wunyuen.com

Thanks again for the great info
Garry

[Firehawk4]

Is this form the Pak Mei Ying Jow form and is it like Bill Jee Wing Chun form ? Here is what form i am talking about
Straight Pace Spearing Fingers Fist (Zik Bou Biu Zi Kyun)
The initial high form, teaches advanced linear attacks & charges, and Chi control (Wan Hei).

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Who's JiK Bo you doing as i have seen some stiff jik bo and some relaxed jik bo?

[Yum Cha]

Hi Mantis, ever vigilant, eh,
Yes, I agree with you, Dave has put it nice and succinctly.

Have you guys ever heard of Sui Jau Teen and Di Jau Teen? Translation (appx) Little sun day and big sun day?

Another comment I might add to this discussion, is that older seniors have different fruit from the same tree. What might be metaphorically called the influence of the immortals.

And finally, what is the last lesson of Pak Mei? Perhaps the lesson of how to teach it properly?

[Firehawk4]

The form is at this website it mentions it i thought that because it said something about Bui Jee spearing hands that it might be related to Wing Chuns Bui Jee form .
http://www.bakmeihapgingdo.com/

[fiercest tiger]

firehawk,

Thise hap ging do bak mei are from YKM grandmaster HA Hon Hung. I know the instructors there.

FT:)

[mantis108]

Hi Dave,

Congratulations! I am sure you will help build a strong Bak Mei presence in the UK. :)

I haven't much to contribute for the Bak Mei community these days as I have put main focus on my mantis side of things. But I still follow the posts of Bak Mei brothers. BTW, I like your terms (ie 4 dynamics and 6 powers). I think it's a good step forward to promote Bak Mei with proper English terminology. This would help most English speaking folks to better grasp the ideas and concepts.

Hi Yum Cha,

How have you been? I have always been following the posts. But I usually just read and take notes. ;) I agreed that Kung Fu regardless of styles will evolve. But the burden or rather the chores (pun intended) is to prove its effectiveness in reality not just in theory.

Anyway, regarding "Sui Jau Teen and Di Jau Teen" or Da Zhou Tian and Xiao Zhou Tian in Mandarin, I would translate it as macro cosmic cycle and micro cosmic cycle.
There are mainly concern with clearing and connecting the 8 odd meridians. Micro cosmic cycle (Xiao Zhou Tian) mainly deals with Ren Mai (receptive meridian) and Du Mai (governing meridian). Ren Mai is believed to command the Yin of entire body while Du Mai commands the Yang. So that is why the Xiao Zhou Tian has such significance in the internal work. The four dynamics as Dave puts it helps this Xiao Zhou Tian process IMHO. That's why in the sonnet you have Jik Bo is practicing the "gong" (ie Xiao Zhou Tian). It is literally a moving meditation set so to speak. Without this proper foundation, the rest of the forms are but hollow.

Hope this helps and hope to hear others opinions on this as well. Thanks

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[fiercest tiger]

Mantis 108,

So how does one train to connect the small and large orbits and when do they know they have achived it with jik bo? I dont think that Jik Bo is internal at all even done as a Slow set, IMHO.

Same as 5 elements that was created by HHH unfishined and then many others added to it and made there own second half. Is micro and Macro a Daoist or Buddhist internal training?

FT

[Yum Cha]

Hi Robert,

Yes, is there anything you don't know? hahahah. Its almost a game, to play "Stump the Mantis."

Thanks for the proper spellings of the exercises, I could not explain them, I've only ever learned their practice, not their explanation. I was told that they are older than the PM forms, and that they are similar to the Hindu "Gundilini Fire" meditations. I suspect they are either ancient Taoist exercises, or the internal teachings CLC received from Jok Fat Wan. Do you know anything about their origins?

I agree, Jik Bo is the first internal meditation. The simplicity is sublime, and the practice provides the most tangible results in amplifying the internal aspect of Pak Mei in a student that is ready.

From simple, to complex and back to simple again. Repeat. hahahahahahahahahaha.

[Soykuil]

hi there,
the theory about Jik Bo being internal is interesting but i can't see how you could classify it as an internal set myself especially when it is the foundation set of the style. Maybe it can be classified as soft but not internal.

Would you guys please elaborate on the internal aspect of the form?

[Lowlynobody]

Hey Yum Cha,

So you have achieved the micro cosmic and macro cosmic orbits through your practice of jik bo? I'm interested to hear your explenation of how you feel jik bo (as it develops and trains FCTT in the mean time) achieves this? In your own words of course as I noticed you mentioned your learning has been rooted in the practice and not so much the detailed explenation.


Cheers.

[Pakmei]

Hi everyone,
With regards to Jik Bo being internal?

I think we have to remember that Pak Mei is classified as an Internal / Exertnal art and the original Pak Mei forms Jik Bo Kuen, Gow Bo Tuew Kuen, Sahp Baa Morr Kiu Kuen are a combination of Internal and external practices.

I can certainly see where Jik Bo comes into the moving meditation, as when practising the whole body is moving as a unit in combination with FCTT (or as I tend to call it 'the 4 dynamics'). Each movement should contain at least 2 if not more of the four dynamics fused with the 6 powers, which is all controlled by the biting of the teeth.

When the FCTT and body unite, the qi circulates harmoniously up and down the Ren and Du channels. The biting of the teeth and the tension of the back of the neck helps to regulate the qi that travels upwards towards the head. Maybe some of you can feel your energy quite literally shooting skywards when you dont bite the teeth and hold the neck tight - both these powers control and help send the energy into a single point - namely the strike. This becomes more apparent once your able to open the 3 gates of the arms - you can actually hear the power come out of the strike - almost similar to that likened to a 'crack of the whip'.

An image that springs to mind when using the 4 dynamics (FCTT) is a ball floating on the surface of water; when you Chum (sink down) you push the ball below the surface of the water at which point you'll feel the resistance between the the two forces then when you Fao (rise up) you release the ball from below the water, which you'll feel the force from the water and air in the ball propell the ball upwards at great force. Now if this power isn't controlled in anyway, then it shoots straight upwards, unchanneled and dissipates.

So at this point, the forms Jik Bo, Gow Bo Tuew in particular; are practiced with a lot more emphasis of the 4 dynamics (FCTT) and keeping the 3 gates open to release the ging out of the strike, in preparation of learning Mung Fu Chu Lahm - Fierce Tiger comes out of the Woods.

This to me is the internal aspect of Jik Bo. I witnessed this in Hong Kong, when being trained by Sifu and some of my PM uncles out there.

They took me back to Jik Bo Kuen, where I had to train in opening the gates to be able to generate the power into a strike of about 6 inches distance, which eventually over the course of a year (which they have given me to be able to do this) has to be reduced to be able to release the power from an inch distance.

Essentially we come back to the beginning. Jik Bo Kuen; is where everything lies within it.

[Pakmei]

Hi there,
Your quite right in your comment that Jik Bo Kuen is the foundation of Pak Mei. However, it is most definitely the 'Heart' of the whole Pak Mei system!

Without a good understanding of this form, everthing else that you learn in Pak Mei, is meaningless.

Regards

[Lowlynobody]

Thanks for your detailed explanation Dave.

Would you agree that tension within the body and perhaps even in the mind (fierce intent) will inhibit the circulation of chi? I ask this because it seems apparent to me that with tension (again in both body and mind) the area of focus will indeed be where chi flow stops and pools. Consider this in conjunction with the correct performance of jik bo (part of which is elbows drawn in and stance gripping the ground) and you see my point about tension.

And before anyone mentions performing jik bo like a moving meditation and thus having no tension I must say I feel the precepts of correct performance - such as posture - even slow performance, automatically dictate that there will be muscular tension of some kind especially across the shoulders and lats.

This is why there is some contention as to the "internal" nature of jik bo when people talk of achieving micro and macro cosmic orbit through its practice. Please note this is not the case when discussing jik bo and Bak Mei as an internal/external style (containing elements of both) which I agree with.


Regards,

LN.

[mantis108]

LOL... I see. Well, I can assure you that there are tons of stuff that I don't know like the birth date of the meditation practice being discussed. We can be sure though that it is Daoist practice in nature.

Hi FT,

How goes it? I think Dave has given a detailed explanation, which I think is excellent, concernin your question. So I will just leave it at that for not hijacking such a great thread by all.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Soykuil]

Hey Dave,
thanks for the answer.
Maybe i am thinking too external and using my limited internal practice as a comparison..i can see how jik bo can be done soft but still not internal.

Is jik bo developing chi and ging and if so what type of ging?

Are you truely doing Jik bo internal, or are you as soft as you want to be?

I still cannot agrees with you on the Jik bo theory considering what i have seen through my internal practice what real internal is.

Is jow bui toi internal or is it purely soft and relaxed?

thanks

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys, lots of comments and follow-ups overnight. I'll ceed this thread to Dave, he has put it as clearly as I could imagine. We've strayed a bit from the tiger and leopard though....

I think there are some confusing concepts here. Internal and soft for example. I think the YKM contingent, FT and his students, are also bringing into it internal concepts from the other arts they are now studying. While there may be common ground, I'm wondering if you guys aren't on another path already. There are many ways to get to the same place.

Jik bo, 4 internal, 6 external powers, chi, ging and shen: form and concentration, and then non-concentration... That is the exercise. As for it being tight, or relaxed, well, the relaxation comes with the breathing, the focus and the execution of the shorter power elements.

The "micro and macro" exercises are done separately, but when you come to understand them, they become part of the way you do Jik Bo as well. Centering, circulating the energy, the breathing, the "disconnectedness".

Cheers Guys,
Good Thread.

[fiercest tiger]

Mantis, yum cha, and the crew,

I think we are all mixing what "WE" think is internal like Yum Cha says although i have to disagree with you big fella due to the fact that i dont believe that Jik Bo or the hand sets of Bak Mei/YKM will take you to the higher internal levels of chi cultivation.

I believe that the internal workings of power generation of FCTT, luk ging with breathing creates a very explosive and deadly force thats very true. But i believe that its like a SHELL with nothing inside comparing to INTERNAL SOFT ARTS such as Taiji, Wun Yuen, YKM internal, and other great chi kung methods. Maybe the Chi Kung of Bak Mei if you have it is seperately and not within the fighting form. Do you have Bak Mei chi kung that isnt a hand set? I have heard of Bak Mei chi kung i alsoi have Bak Mei Chi Kung that i practise and its very internal and is not the jik bo form or any other hand set like what we all do as BAK MEI PAI.

If Bak Mei is internal then why is many BM Sifu's doing Taiji or Other interanl arts to get there Hei Gung?

Im not doubting for one minute that the BM system isnt internal but not like the soft arts and i TRUELY think that it wont cultivate your chi to a higher level then Taiji of other Hei Gung systems.

Please dont think that im causing trouble just my Honest Opinion and its great to chat to all of you since we havent had a good discussion on Bak Mei for years. Mantis 108 you always have great info and i would love to hear your side like everyone elses.

respect
FT

[Waxoff]

Bak Mei is certainly an internal MA. The develoment of breath and jing control is different than Tai Chi. But nevertheless the goal and the achived skill is very similiar. I have trained and have experience in Bak Mei and Tai Chi. It is quite amazing to pick up a stiff Tai Chi sword and make it vibrate after you Fa jing. I was able to do this along with experienced skilled Tai Chi practioners. I was just a beginner and had no experience with a sword. It was strictly due to my jing development in Bak Mei.

If you Bak Mei guys haven't had a chance to pick up a Tai Chi sword, hey give it a try. You"ll be surprise to see how well you can extend your Jing/Chi or not!

[TAO YIN]

This is a very cool thread for sure.

Doesn't breath control inhibit chi flow? Jik Bo definetely trains breathing patters in coordination with principles of fctt, luk ging, and luk hup. However, this form seems to teach a person to only breathe out when striking and breath in when grappling. So, can a person "have ging" if he strikes and breathes in or grapples and breathes out? If so, Jik Bo doesn't train this concept. From this rationale, Jik Bo is not internal. It is inhibited due to breath, and it does not follow nature. With regards to animals, a tiger can attack and breathe in or out while doing so. With any meditative practice, the key concept is to breathe normally and let the chi circulate without thought of how or why it is doing so. Any thoughts?

Tao

[Soykuil]

Nice Replies guys,
I have to agree with Tao Yin regarding the breathing concept.

Yum Cha,
yeah i agree, i think our theory on internal is probably different to yours regarding Jik Bo and Bak Mei in general.

Can you guys tell me then which ging jik bo does train, does it develop the chi and ging to penetrate and rupture the internal organs?
What chi gung methods are there to complement the hand forms and help cultivate the chi? Or do you believe that the forms do that themselves?

Do the Bak Mei forms Cultivate the chi?

thanks

[Yum Cha]

Tao Yen,
The breathing you describe in Jik Bo is not the breathing I was taught. If you breath that way, then you will not find the same results. Breathing has to be natural, and not synched to a particular move. This is the first step in internalising Pak Mei, and a fundamental skill.

Soy Kuil,
See above...., yes, our Pak Mei is obviously different. You do a mix of YKM and Doo Wai's "secret" Omei Pak Mei, and are you also studying the Luk Hup Baat Faat and Wun Yuen with Garry? I just do Guangzhou Pak Mei. There are bound to be differences...

For example we don't have all the 6 different "Gings" that Uncle Doo has, we just have one. As for rupturing internal organs, well, I've never been in the situation where I've tried to.

Garry,
I agree with a lot of what you say, as to the existance of this external "shell". But, we're definately on different pages concerning internal.

Wax Off,
A good example.

[Soykuil]

LOL Yum Cha,
what secret bak mei, everyone knows about it. You make it sound like we mix and match, that is definitely not the case.
I do not study or know Doo's "6 gings" you seem to refer to.

I study YKM external and internal first and the LHBF second, so get your facts right first mate.
Regarding rupturing internal organs, i didn't ask about a situation, i asked whether you can do it. Is you internal chi level upto a point where you can do it?

I have never been hit like i was by my LHBF teacher, it went though my body vibrating and the pain was unbelievable. Sifu Garry's hits are the hardest i have felt, but it was different. This was truely internal.

Maybe your concept of internal is different to mine. Like you said you only study Bak Mei

That is why i ask about chi etc. having ging is all great but do you cuiltvate the chi for it to be internal???

You are probably right, we are on different wave lengths.

[fiercest tiger]

LOL, whats going on?

What i teach isnt a mix match of Kung Fu, i teach each system and the hei gung that goes with that system. YKM, Bak Fu Pai, Bak Mei external hand sets and Internal hei gung. As for SECRETS, hell yeah the Bak Mei Hei Gung is what makes the Ging even stronger in the Bak Mei. CLC had it but maybe didnt teach it out but just the hand sets? As for Bak Mei being an INTERNAL and EXTERNAL style these days then basically KARATE follows the same principles as the hand sets of Bak MEI. They have the hunching and swallow and spitting!! What make a system internal is the chi kung not the fact that u breath in or out as you do a fast form.

Hi Matthew,

Yeah i think we are on different levels of internal work and i respect that mate. No biggie its good to see what the Bak Mei train for internal anyway and if that gets you to the place you need to get to in your kung fu im happy.

When you do the microcosmic orbit matthew what do you feel and how fast can you get the chi to move during Jik Bo Kuen?

Garry:)

[HupGerk]

Hahaha,

here it is...the long awaited proof of the KARATE - Bak Mei connection....;)

http://www.pyramid-it.nl/KungFu/pages/technieken.aspx

Now there can be no doubt...

*LMAO*

HG

[fiercest tiger]

Not that there is anything wrong with Karate, i have seen some great Karateka and they have ging also.

But what i am trying to say is if all it is, that internal is from your form doing FCTT then Karate is the same.Maybe you are saying that its external chi kung that you are learning?

Garry

[Pakmei]

I certainly know that Cheung Lai Chuen taught the 'hei gung' to his 'late' son Cheung Bing Faat. From all accounts from my Sifu and my Daih Si Hing's, the power that he generated was awesome. :eek: :cool:

Cheung Bing Lam, would most likely know the hei gung as well, as he's pretty powerful when I observed him demonstrate in Hong Kong. :cool:

As for any of the other disciples of Cheung Lai Chuen; I'm uncertain.

[mantis108]

Hi FT,

Thanks for encouraging open dialogue for such a delicate subject. I believe there are many routes to the same destination.

Personally, I believe that Kung Fu is bascially a mystic discipline meaning it is about the union of the space-time continuum with the body-mind continuum; hence, I believe something isn't quite kosher if one were to say such and such practice is internal while such and such exercise is external to me. Of course that's only my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone. It is important IMHO to set out to practice bearing in mind that the body is the mind and the mind is the body. This is the only way that the conversion of bio energy from Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen can happen. Isolation the physical exercises (body) with the intent (mind) is only to render the art into a sport IMHO. If it is an art that we want to develop, we need to live and breath literally with the art.

Jing makes the body strong and sturdy but Shen makes the body supple and sentient. Jing makes the person be aware, Qi makes a person be alive, Shen makes a person be awaken. It is this difference in the conversion that is important in my mind. This is the softness that I believe we are all talking about. Essentially, there is rigidity within the flexibility - the needle in the cotton ball. That's the martial prowess within the practice of the Neigong or vice versa. They are one and the same if it is from real tradition Kung Fu. We may approach it step by step but like the limbs of the body, all developments' paces should be synchronized or risk a deformed body (and yes the mind too).

In keeping with the theme of the thread, I will conclude with this observation. Tiger is the largest cat there is. It uses its body weight behind it's strikes usually it's a pounce and choke hold with the powerful jaw rather than reaching and pawing with the claw. Its strenght comes from the use of body mechanics. Leopard on the other hand is smaller and would "grapple" with use of claw and choke hold with jaw as well. It's prowess came from understanding of distant, timing and position which can be summed up as disposition. Bak Mei no doubt teaches the combination of these skills of the predators.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Lowlynobody]

So who wants to put up a clip of their jik bo so we can check out the use of internal aspects and the realisation of the tiger and leopard influences of Bak Mei?

[Fu-Ying]

This debate about bak mei, YKM, bak fu, being internal or how it is external, is kinda like 2 people tasting the same cup of coffee and one saying it is too sweet i don't like it, the other saying it is not too sweet it's just right.

First, no 2 people ever have the same meaning of these terms (internal/external). No one here has the same definition. Nor has anyone of you even describe what they mean.

I mean doesn't it seem to make sense to say something as more internal or external shouldn't we describe these concepts.

But i think that would be an exercise in futility because these are such vague metaphysical concepts.

[Fu-Ying]

Oh except mantis108, no one really described what these concepts mean.

[fiercest tiger]

Sure, so why dont you tell us all then Mr? :)

Of course everyone is different thats why we are having this debate, do what you do and be happy if you think your Jik Bo is REALLY internal then thats it. We are talking and sharing our views here only! Not to mention nothing was really said to confirm Jik Bo as internal, just alot of mush about the macro and micro orbit that no one has clearly explained how they have acheived it and use it during there INTERNAL jik bo! LOL

No Mind....or confused mind...which will it be?

FT

[Fu-Ying]

Tell you what...?

How I think these terms are so subjective that they really have no meaning other than to the practitioner.

Confirm jik bo as internal? What is internal? what is external?

[Olaf]

Can you / should you start working on the chi kung/internal side of Jik Bo when you do don't have the external side completely mastered (body mechanics, lukh ging, TTFC etc)? Or is it something that will happen automatically when you have all these items in place?

[Lowlynobody]

Actually Fu-Ying very specific internal work was mentioned. The micro and macro cosmin orbits generally do not have different meanings to different people.

Another thing - I don't think there is any debate about bak mei, YKM, and bak fu being internal or how these arts are external. I think you'll find the debate is actually about jik bo as a method by which internal progression (specifically the 2 orbits) can be achieved. Jik Bo is the focus only because it is the core set by which FCTT is learnt and developed.

Now how about giving your perception of how FCTT (and jik bo as a result) will cause correct circlulation of energy though your body after first breaking down any blockages that may exist? Anyone else? Better yet lets see a video clip! But I highly doubt anyone will show. No one ever does. Why is that?

Yum Cha - So you do not use any explosive breath (be it in or out) when performing your hand sets? Just trying to understand what you mean by natural.

[HupGerk]

Hi everyone,

Good thread, I too wonder how the micro cosmic and macro cosmic circulation is specifically trained during jik bo? So here are some thoughts/questions on the matter…

How are the du and ren paths stimulated by movement? What kind of movement creates an increase in the upward flow of the chi in the body? How do you encourage the chi to rise up the back? In a similar vein, how do you set about an increase in the downward flow of chi in the body?

I use the word “increase” above, because if you are not already circulating the energy, then you are dead and hence not reading this.

What happens when you round the back, tuck your tail and swallow the chest? When you breathe, what happens to your dan tien and to your spine? Does it lengthen, shorten…what? How does this affect your energy flow?

We all know that tension lessens the chi flow, how does the tension/relaxation in jik bo change the “pressure” in your chi “pipes”? How is this connected to your intention?

No point in reading books or forums, only way to find the answer is to try it and feel it!

But still…is this “internal” or just body / energy mechanics? Because the human body is the same regardless of your label…right?

Perhaps Sun Lu Tang didn’t do us a favour when he coined the nei jia phrase…

Personally I think Mantis108 hit the nail on the head in his previous post. What is within is also without…

It isn’t easy to be human, born into a world full of duality! Can we even begin to understand by breaking things down…?

Heh…and please excuse my ramblings above, I just had lunch so my chi and blood is nowhere near my brain at the moment…

Regards

HG

[fiercest tiger]

Where were you today i got my new Tattoo and u missed out on some kool 2 man double dagger sh!t. I cut out Al's liver and fed it to him, PUH X 2! :)

You coming over to my house and chill and train?


And take back your silly Tiger and Crane crap movie that he beats Bak Mei.

I eat people......

FT

[TAO YIN]

"I eat people."

LOL!

[Fu-Ying]

Lowlynobody

Actually Fu-Ying very specific internal work was mentioned. The micro and macro cosmin orbits generally do not have different meanings to different people.

Firecest Tiger-
We are talking and sharing our views here only! Not to mention nothing was really said to confirm Jik Bo as internal, just alot of mush about the macro and micro orbit that no one has clearly explained how they have acheived it and use it during there INTERNAL jik bo! LOL

Well, it would seem fieircest tiger has a different meaning of micro macro orbits as related to your idea of internal. Unless, i have the wrong interpretation of what he said.

[TAO YIN]

Communication breakdown,

Rhetorical Analysis and Reading Comprehension, Lesson One: "The contextual construct of an English sentence gives readers not only the objective thought of the writer, but also the subjective thought of how the writer understands his idea in relation to the world that he lives in."

Fu Ying, Check this out ok? It's only a "heads up," but this lesson will help you comprehend the arguments here.

Ying Ching wrote, " Actually Fu-Ying very specific internal work was mentioned. The micro and macro cosmin orbits generally do not have different meanings to different people." The key word in sentence one is "mentioned." This word helps give you his perspective on the arguments thus far. Basically translated, his two sentences read as; People have mentioned things...People usually perceive Micro and Macro Cosmic Orbits similarly.

Ying Ching stated the following key point: "I think you'll find the debate is actually about jik bo as a method by which internal progression (specifically the 2 orbits) can be achieved." So, we need this sentence for the purposes of the specific agrument at hand. This sentence tells you the discussion everyone is discussing.

Fiercest Tiger wrote, "We are talking and sharing our views here only! Not to mention nothing was really said to confirm Jik Bo as internal, just alot of mush about the macro and micro orbit that no one has clearly explained how they have acheived it and use it during there INTERNAL jik bo! LOL" Now, sentence one is a dead give away. The key word in sentence one is "views." However, sentence two is somewhat tricky. Basically translated, sentence two reads as; People have said nothing about what makes Jik Bo internal. People have mentioned Micro and Macro Cosmic Orbits, but none of these people have given its practical or theoretical relation to the "Internal Jik Bo."

So, as you can see, the argument is still at hand. Question one equals, "Why is Jik Bo internal?" Question two equals, "How does one achieve the Micro and Macro Cosmic Orbits while practicing Jik Bo?"

So again, as you can see, in order for these two questions to be argued effectively, one must define; what internal is, what is the key difference between internal and external, what makes Jik bo internal, how one achieves said orbits while practicing Jik Bo, and the like.

I have power point presentations on effective reading comprehension. If you need any help just let me know. :D

Take care,

TY

[Fu-Ying]

So TAO, define internal and external and see if everyone here agrees with what that is.

If "internal" is a concept based in fact as opposed to one based on subjective feel then you wouldn't need to ask how is jik bo internal. Since you dont think it is internal, or at least you and FT don't think so, and Yum Cha, pak mei and the others think it is internal.

If everyone define internal as some relation of a micro macro orbit, then why even need to explain. The truth should be self evident. If internal is such said concepts then why would fierce tiger need to call it "MUSH"?

Yes the key word is VIEW, and that is exactly the point. VIEWS, everyone has a different view of these metaphysical concepts. Especially or more specifically in relation to their particular art.

Do you have a different interpretation of 3x=6, where x= 2? How about E=mc2?

I have known Tai Chi people and never heard anyone of them mention micro macro orbits. I know TCM physician and NOT one of them ever mention a micro macro orbit.

So again, why dont you give me a clear defintion of internal and external, better yet use your powerpoint since you are such a master of the english language.

[fiercest tiger]

I dont think you can acheive the orbits from doing jik bo kuen im sorry but if you Bak Mei can do it then power to you all.

You have never heard teachers in Taiji talk about it and they are internal stylist but some of the people here especially my Donkey friend Yum Cha (hehe) and they dont call him donkey cause of his slong, but i cant see and no one will explain how they achieved this as well trained it?

How do you train Macro and Micro COSMIC orbits? Do we have the 2 totally different ways and training to achieve it?

There is a few people out there that teach it, i dont know if they are right but MANTAK CHAI is one and i believe another guy that can move clouds!

My arguement is Yum Cha brought it and said it can be done, my point is HOW and who has done it and how did they acheive this with a combo of sitting and standing hei gung or just plain Jik BO. Because Jik Bo and the Bak Mei postures IMHO is too external and brings tension therefore restricting the flow of chi.

Yum Cha,

Help a brother out and explain how its done and what points you connect when moving the chi in the micro then Macro?

FT

[TAO YIN]

Some objective definitions of,

External-

Relating to, existing on, or connected with the outside or an outer part; exterior.
Suitable for application to the outside: external paints.
Existing independently of the mind.
Acting or coming from the outside: external pressures.
Of or relating chiefly to outward appearance; superficial: “An internal sense of righteousness dwindles into an external concern for reputation” (A.R. Gurney, Jr.).
Of or relating to foreign affairs or foreign countries: the country's minister of external affairs.

Internal-

Of, relating to, or located within the limits or surface; inner.
Residing in or dependent on essential nature; intrinsic: the internal contradictions of the theory.
Located, acting, or effective within the body.
Of or relating to mental or spiritual nature: “An internal sense of righteousness dwindles into an external concern for reputation” (A.R. Gurney, Jr.).
Of or relating to the domestic affairs of a nation, group, or business.

-From Dictionary.com-


Fu Ying,

There, now you can add some idea from above to your subjective view so that you can at least half way make sense with your argument. You stated that I don't think it is internal. I never said that. In any case, you are the one who initiated the "someone define it argument." It's a simple question. Why is Jik Bo internal? Give everyone, "your views," on why it is internal. State why you think it is internal. Tell everyone how you make it internal. How do you achieve micro and macrocosmic orbits while playing Jik Bo. These two "concepts" are the defining factor in what most martial artists view as internal are they not? Simple tasks for you.

Waiting,

TY

[fiercest tiger]

Some people think or believe that Both training Internal and External will lead you in the same place at the end! HOW? Not possible when you havent trained internal to really know what REAL internal training is about.

This is directed to peope that just train external hand forms and think they can compare internal and external as the same thing. Most people agree that the bak mei forms are power generation system correct but lack the hei gung unless its been added to from an outside party. There is a Bak Mei hei gung book and there is also known Bak Mei Pai Hei Gung That will train the Chi for Ging, health, healing. My point being the forms are the delivery system the Hei Gung is what is needed to cultivate the chi. Thats why Bak Mei is an internal and external art not because you slow down a form and try and be soft and say hey, this is now internal say mun bagua.......lol

FT

[HupGerk]

Tao Yin,

Hey big bro, excellent site that...dictionary.com.

Just had to add this to the paella...


Definition of Emptyness (from www.dictionary.com:)

Holding or containing nothing.
Mathematics. Having no elements or members; null: an empty set.
Having no occupants or inhabitants; vacant: an empty chair; empty desert.
Lacking force or power: an empty threat.
Lacking purpose or substance; meaningless: an empty life.
Not put to use; idle: empty hours.
Needing nourishment; hungry: “More fierce and more inexorable far/Than empty tigers or the roaring sea” (Shakespeare).
Devoid; destitute: empty of pity.


Hupty Gerky

[TAO YIN]

Hup Gerk,

Empty! Exactly. Another good few definitions Bro. Knowledge at fingertips, the old internet is. Here is another one.

-Nothingness-

"The condition or quality of being nothing; nonexistence.
Empty space; a void.
Lack of consequence; insignificance.
Something inconsequential or insignificant."

Fu Ying,

There are four words for you to look at. Look at key words and points. Okay?


Special thanks to all of those wonderful men and women at dictionary.com.


TY

[Yum Cha]

Void? Sorry, that means nothing to me.

[HupGerk]

...


...somehow...that is completely lost on me...



:p

[Fu-Ying]

Tao yin-

Nice definitions, im glad you can use the internet to do research.

Now for the hard part for you, because this may require some thinking as opposed to just rehashing some meanings found on a website.

How does those definitions relate to martial arts?....Uh oh...I feel the coming of more metaphysical cow dung from your mouth. Was that some internal energy im tapping into....

How is jik bo internal? I never said it is, did I? ASS-U-ME you did?

Micro macro orbits, never heard of these concepts, and i just asked some of my tai chi bros, never heard of these things as well. Does that make them not "internal"?

My point is words such as "internal/external" are so subjective and really have no basis in fact, that it amounts to nothing more than pure BS. But yet people (in particular the CMA's) throw these terms around as though they are concrete as Newtonian physics.

Especially when it seems to implicate that this "internal" aspect is somehow superior to "external"

[HupGerk]

He said...ass....

...better watch out or next he will say "reach around"...

Wanna bet?

Look out for the mascot!

ROFL *chunks of pizza flying everywhere*!

HG

[fiercest tiger]

What you are saying is what we are saying, that Micro orbit cannot be attained through jik bo. Taiji may not focus on this as it will lead to intent and intent brings tension. Some people also use the tounge on the roof of the palate as to connect the fore and water but still this isnt micro cosmic orbit to me unless its done in mediation.

Yum Cha,

Can you please Elaborate on why void means nothing to you?:)


FT

[TAO YIN]

Fu, are you going to answer anything?

What, am I supposed to not answer in case I look the fool? As I cared and all.

Internal as in inside. As in not Jik Bo. As in not me doing something strenuous over and over and over until it is relaxed. As in not through physical repetition and reinforcement. As in, beginning from the inside. Not as in beginning from the outside. As in natural. As in the least possible amount of stress on the physical. And if you are going to say that breathing naturally with your eyes closed and not doing anything is "physical," well I am sorry but I am not dead, and that is the closest thing that I can get to "internal" save sleeping or watching TV. However, if you want to say that it is physical, then we can say internal is death. Complete void of being anything or nothing or whatever.

External as in ouside. As in Jik Bo. As in physical exertion. As in me doing something strenuous over and over and over until it is relaxed. As in through physical repetition and reinforcement. As in, beginning from the outside. Not as in beginning from the inside. And if you are going to say that martial artists strive to make their external second nature or whatever, developing things from the outside in, well no farking shiot.

Here is a question though, what is qi gung? Why can't I run for 5 miles full out without getting tired? Is it because running is external? If Jik Bo is internal, a person could do it all the time as fast as possible without getting tired at all.

So there you go, shoot with your questions now. I tried to be as in this world as possible and gave you examples. We can do this all day.

Wait, here is another question. Is power built from the inside out or the ouside in? Or both outside in and inside out simultaneously?

Anyways,

TY

[Olaf]

Tao Yin,

I like to find out the answer to your last question. Or in my case maybe more specifically: If I get all the externals right will that automatically lead to internal development? Or is it a basis on which you would have to build the internal works on top? Or as you say, should I have started with the internal side?

[fiercest tiger]

I believe that if you have all your externals working as one you have great body machanics. Jik Bo for instance is a co-ordination of body and breath right to creat ging. I dont know if your Bak Mei uses the Luk Hup as well which incorporates mind and chi, spirit, with hand , legs, eyes together. Now to understand the internal aspects of Luk Hup one needs to understand some Hei Gung and to focus the mind and chi, spirit then co-ordinate that into the external for ging. I personally dont think Jik Bo is a hei gung set when performed slow.

What do you think?

FT

[Yum Cha]

Void? Sorry, that means nothing to me.

LOL...think about it Garry. :D

The micro and macro exercises are separate to Jik Bo, and yes, they are "meditations" as you call them. What I'm trying to say is that like so many of the lessons of Pak Mei, when you study one thing, it washes a layer over the other things you do. Thus, capturing the "feelings" and "mechanics" of the internal lessons, you learn to apply them to other exercises, a good place to start is Jik Bo. Its really physically quite intuitive.

I think Tao Yen touched on the issue quite well.



Yum Cha - So you do not use any explosive breath (be it in or out) when performing your hand sets? Just trying to understand what you mean by natural.

LN - there was another thread on this topic, either here or on Southern fist. The discussion concerning exerting one explosive breath per move, versus the retention and slow release of breath over a number of moves, and the reverse, with the inhale.
Being that the topic was already exhausted, I'll leave it at that, the thread should be easy to find.

[fiercest tiger]

So what Internal work you doing to layer over your BAAAAAAAAAAAK MEIIIIIII?

G

[Yum Cha]

Garry,
Just what I mentioned earlier.

You're not going to eat me are you??

:eek:

[fiercest tiger]

Okie Dokie Donkey....:)

[Olaf]

Hi Gary,

I haven't learned any of the internal things yet. I was hoping that if I got the externals right that that would then in turn develop the internal. But you are saying you need some of the slow movement too to develop that. what is this Luk Hup you are talking about?

[TAO YIN]

Olaf,

Hi. I think that you have to do both. It takes just as much time to develop something from the inside out than from the outside in. However, I do not think that you can develop the inside from simply training the outside over and over. Flip side, I do not think that you can develop the outside by simply training the inside over and over. Why not do them both? They both enhance each other. All of this "stuff" relates to your goals. If you want to be a healer only, do chi gung, tui na, dit da, and the like until you can levitate with a blue face. If you want to be a figther only, do forms, applications, bagwork, cardio, sparring, fighting, and what not until you are bleeding and bruised. Perhaps all roads lead to the same path, but if you can walk down both roads at the same time, I think your chances of finding the way are greater. You can have two forever journeys instead of one.

I hope I made sense but I doubt that I did,

TY

[Yum Cha]

Olaf,
I would say, do your externals first, over and over and over and over, etc......

Slowly....once you learn to not only remember, execute, execute with power, execute with variation, execute with reflex, execute with mindlessness - then, when you find this void, then you will find what comes next.

I believe that Pak Mei has some unique characteristics to its internal side, and they can't simply be substituted with other "internal" exercises. Maybe thats the duality of the Pak Mei system, I don't know. Its just thats the way it feels to me.

[Hardtail]

Olaf,
I would say, do your externals first, over and over and over and over, etc......

Slowly....once you learn to not only remember, execute, execute with power, execute with variation, execute with reflex, execute with mindlessness - then, when you find this void, then you will find what comes next.

I believe that Pak Mei has some unique characteristics to its internal side, and they can't simply be substituted with other "internal" exercises. Maybe thats the duality of the Pak Mei system, I don't know. Its just thats the way it feels to me.


Well said. No substitute for doing it right over and over and over again. And I did say doing it right !!
I think I know what you mean, it feels the same to me also. The words external and internal don't really mean a hill of beans to me to be honest, by doing the hard work or kung fu if you will, one reaps all of the benefits as far as I can work out. I believe that this is the way it should be in all the Chinese arts, no such thing as a division of soft and hard. I think mutation or evolution depending on your angle has changed this to a large extent.
From reading much posting here, not everywhere though. :-)

[Olaf]

Thanks all for the reactions.

I am in violent agreement over the importance of thraining the externals over and over again. It is hard work to make averything work at the same time. Given the fact that I haven't learned much of the 'internal' stuff I was just hoping that correct execution of the externals would automaticall lead to internal development.

So off on a new quest! Can anyone here perhaps point me in the right direction?

[fiercest tiger]

POOR YUMMY, I hope that your not pinning all your hopes on internal work by just External forms of BM are you? Dude, im sorry but i dont think you have understood what INTERNAL is im sorry to be answering like this. You know we go back a while and all but i have to say it sorry bro.

Olaf, please go and learn some internal kung fu and find out yourself without EGO or being one sided.

Its easier to go from soft to hard not the other way as well.

Tao Yin,

I wouldnt count on your answer either, i will tell you on MSN why.

FT da *******

[Hardtail]

POOR YUMMY, I hope that your not pinning all your hopes on internal work by just External forms of BM are you? Dude, im sorry but i dont think you have understood what INTERNAL is im sorry to be answering like this. You know we go back a while and all but i have to say it sorry bro.

Olaf, please go and learn some internal kung fu and find out yourself without EGO or being one sided.

Its easier to go from soft to hard not the other way as well.

Tao Yin,

I wouldnt count on your answer either, i will tell you on MSN why.

FT da *******



May I ask you why you believe it easier to go from soft to hard and not vice-versa?

[Lowlynobody]

Well, it would seem fieircest tiger has a different meaning of micro macro orbits as related to your idea of internal. Unless, i have the wrong interpretation of what he said.

Yes you indeed do have the wrong interpretation. I have no idea how you came to it.


From Yum Cha -


The micro and macro exercises are separate to Jik Bo, and yes, they are "meditations" as you call them. What I'm trying to say is that like so many of the lessons of Pak Mei, when you study one thing, it washes a layer over the other things you do. Thus, capturing the "feelings" and "mechanics" of the internal lessons, you learn to apply them to other exercises, a good place to start is Jik Bo. Its really physically quite intuitive.

So here you have said that your internal practice actually (initially at least) had nothing to do with jik bo or bak mei hand sets for that matter. But once your body learnt the internal leasons to a point where things occur intuitively (without conscious thought) they became part of your bak mei simply because they became a part of your body or how your body works.

If that is the case it really still begs the question - Will jik bo or bak mei in general give you internal benefits without some sort of extracurricular internal practice? From what you have said it certainly seems that it wont.

[Soykuil]

Hey guys,
Can i ask who here has actually practiced/practices or had any experience with an internal art?

The techniques are different, forms are different, even the names of the techniques are different. Some of the names refer to the universe chi etc. i know all of you know or may think who cares it means nothing and i understand that everyone interprets things their own ways which is great.

An internal art truely becomes internal, not because you have some ging or can make a tai chi sword quiver, but because you are cultivating the chi with chi gung, meditations etc. And i am sorry to say this but the power delivered from a truely internal guy is different to an external guy.

Is anyone misinterpreting the saying that external arts become internal at the higher levels? I mean they become softer, more relaxed and flowing with ging etc but not to the depth of a true internal system.

I think this debate will never be resolved because of everyone's differing opinions.

Did CLC develop jik bo as an internal form? or is it your own opinion that it is internal? Remember CLC did have meds and chi gungs to develop his power .

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys,
I lost my computer, one of those catostrophic events you read about. Back in order now, 4 days later....


Yes you indeed do have the wrong interpretation. I have no idea how you came to it.

From Yum Cha -
So here you have said that your internal practice actually (initially at least) had nothing to do with jik bo or bak mei hand sets for that matter. But once your body learnt the internal leasons to a point where things occur intuitively (without conscious thought) they became part of your bak mei simply because they became a part of your body or how your body works.

If that is the case it really still begs the question - Will jik bo or bak mei in general give you internal benefits without some sort of extracurricular internal practice? From what you have said it certainly seems that it wont.

Firstly, thank you for reading my comments accurately. Perhaps you can explain it to Fiercest Kitten, as he seems to have totally mis-read what I said. (lol@garry!)

I can't answer your question, because I have no idea exactly what YOU mean by "internal benefits". I know you guys get enamoured with your latest cross training adventures, but you fail to remember, I'm not a cross trainer. I'm just a simple Kao La, Sut Choi Pak Mei Donkey.

The breathing/meditations conditioned the external? Or perhaps the external conditioned the breathing/meditations? I can't say, its just the sum of the parts.

I guess in essence, it comes down to physical simplicity and economy to create speed and power. All controlled by strategy and attitude.

But hey, if you like your "internal" training, and it makes you a better martial artist, more power to you. Just don't astrally travel over here and give me a chi blast, or send FT over with a knife and fork...

[fiercest tiger]

YUM CHA,

You have lost your mind you stupid Donkey, better put you out to stud or better yet just put down...lol;)

Dont be mad that you havent figured out what your style is used for or trained for Matthew, you havent got the full Bak Mei system and its clear you dont know Bak Mei chi kung. How can your art be an internal external system when you know nothing about CHI or how to develop it, store it, use it?

Kol la sut choi, hmm how would you use this technique in a fight Matthew?

FT no knive just a fork;)

[Lowlynobody]

Hey Yum Cha,

I thought we might have lost you. Who would we have discussions with then? :)

By internal benefits I ment jik bo giving any internal results/development (whatever they may be - I'm keen to hear what you would include as the internal benefits of jik bo). Hope that makes my question clearer. Perhaps you could answer it within the context of what YOU consider to be internal benefits. I hope you will because I'm always interested in other points of view.


I know you guys get enamoured with your latest cross training adventures, but you fail to remember, I'm not a cross trainer. I'm just a simple Kao La, Sut Choi Pak Mei Donkey.

To tell the truth mate you don't know what I train or what I do. You have never come to a class or seen me train by myself or even met me so I think you may take some assumptions a tad far. Just because sifu is training an interesting internal system or otherwise does not automatically mean I'm now studying the same system. Sure I have many conversations with sifu about what he has learnt and he shows me many interesting things but I'm not actually training it. I'm simply interested in martial arts and anything that expands my awareness (not exactly intimate knowledge) of the different methods/styles that exist can only help. Just keeping an open mind. Martial artists should be good open minded thinkers after all. Not simply doing things because some chinese man (who most likely did not have the same body shape as me) 500 years ago did it and legend tells us it worked for him.

My "internal" training consists of the first YKM internal form (for health mainly) some standing chi gung (body conectivity and health) and mindfulness type meditation.

I look forward to your reply.

[Yum Cha]

Yea, you're right Garry, I don't understand the internal, I'm busted. I just can't seem to get the astral projection and chi materialisation you talk about down, and my no-touch knockout just doesn't seem to work.

I'm happy with my training, and I wish you the same happiness with yours, I can see that I have nothing to offer you and your lads.

[Go Jun Long]

YUM CHA,

You have lost your mind you stupid Donkey, better put you out to stud or better yet just put down...lol;)

Dont be mad that you havent figured out what your style is used for or trained for Matthew, you havent got the full Bak Mei system and its clear you dont know Bak Mei chi kung. How can your art be an internal external system when you know nothing about CHI or how to develop it, store it, use it?

Kol la sut choi, hmm how would you use this technique in a fight Matthew?

FT no knive just a fork;)


So what do YOU use this Chi for? Is it for Healing, protection or power?

[Fu-Ying]

Internal is nothing more than a person's own perception of a metaphysical experience. You can visualize "energy" being stored in tantien projected out of your hand, focused etc.....but really, there is no electric energy being channeled and stored going on in your body. Can these so called "internal exercises" make you stronger and focused in your martial arts..? Of course it can, but so can other training methods.

It's all a matter of point of view.

Hei gung, well to me it means breathing exercise. Would Yoga be considered a internal exercise?

Why can't you run 5miles full out; simple, your body won't allow it. So, does that mean marathon running is more internal training than sprinting? How bout race walking? or ultra-marathoners.. 20+ miles?
So, internal you can do all day long without getting tired? is that the definition? Can you do your internal training as fast as you can do it all day long without being tired?

Power inside, outside, means nothing in actual movement. More subjective metaphycial mumbo jumbo.

[fiercest tiger]

Why you upset, you have been having digs at me this whole thread pal as well the arts i study and the teachers i study with. So my little attack is very small comparing!

You are right about being happy with what you do and im happy you have your internal jik bo for what its worth. You do offer great discussions and i enjoy our debates, but maybe you can keep an open mind rather then rule out everything i say. My whole issue was that you asked what the small and large micro-orbit was and then next minute you are doing it inside jik bo or jik bo develops this. I asked how and you couldnt answer but criticis teachers regarding materialising chi, astrol travel and so forth which is a dig at me and i know you enough to know you are having a go mate.

I am as open minded as they come i train 3 different arts now and i can see major differences in the developemnt of CHI and its usage. Thats why im not agreeing to your internal jik bo theory as i believe it hasnt got the machanics or correct posture IMHO to be internal. This can also be depending on the Jik Bo you practise as well!

FT:)

Gou Lung,

Hi, i study a Daoist internal system called Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng (Primordial Chaos one chi palm system) as well YKM internal sets as well other arts. I use the Chi for Healing, Ging destruction, cultivating and storing. Wun Yuen connects me with the Dao, sounds weird but things are happening within and out when you practise as well people can feel your energy when standing near. Wun Yuen goes against every art that i have practised recently, YKM, Bak Mei, BFP etc and is strictly Daoist chi kung and fighting. I feel more connected to the energy then i ever have due to its unique but natural methods. It puts me on a higher energy plane then the rest or the arts as now i do the form or should i say CHI is moving my body then my thoughts of muscle if you can understand what im trying to say? Which i go into a nothing VOID state and loose time and i have outer body experiences. Yep in nuts right?!:)

My training consist of sitting chi kung for cultivation of chi, and i have meds and methods to practise for Chi Healing with the hands. Then there is standing chi kung and a chi kung set for health then the wun yuen form which takes 1 hr to do when done right.

well enough of me thats all i can say at this point im starting to not make sense or i cant put it into words what i feel and sense with internal kung fu. I know that now where my purpose is for training kung fu, ive moved to internal now. I dont practise much external forms these days but teach them out as part of my sylubus. All i can say to you all is that there is alot within internal that you can never get from external training as you know. It depends on where you are headed with yourself if you wanna take your fu to another level thats all.

I found something that is very fasinating and i havent felt anything like this with my previous arts.

all the best matt and guys
FT

[TAO YIN]

"Big circles for healing and small circles for killing..."

E=MC2

And shiit...

Velocity is equal to distance traveled per unit time.

Force is equal to mass times acceleration.

Acceleration is equal to an increased rate of change in velocity.

Any ideas anyone???

Forgot to mention, DMT is illegal.

[fiercest tiger]

Ok, my observation on Bak Mei hand forms!

This in MY OPINION only and what i feel when training Bak Mei Pai.

1) The shape or posture changes to YANG

2) Develops Yang Chi

3) Aggression (intent) and external power

Now, has anyone ever trained and then couldnt sleep or was awake till late from training forms? Well i have and experienced all of the above, but to stop this one must learn to meditate and store or release the yang chi after you finish training. Over time this can lead to other problems which is another thread altogether!

So Bak Mei has meds to balance out the yang and settle the chi as well meds that develope Ging or a certain chi for fighting. The forms a merly a delevery system!


Any thoughts?

FT

[Soykuil]

So i ask again, who here actually practices an internal art?

Fu ying,
it is nothing about visualising, it is just about the fact that it is there.What do you feel when you practice chi gung? from your answer it seems you don't really understand it or mayber i have misunderstood your comment.

energy is what we are made up of and we are all connected, when you connect what is the feeling you get?

What about reiki? Do you believe in it and the healing energy it has?

[Fu-Ying]

Soykuil-

What fact is there? Qi...? well, if that is your answer, then comes the cliche question. What is qi and prove it's existence. Even, TCM physicians i have talked to and are good friends of mine cannot come to a definitive explaination of qi; thereby making this whole concept of internal/external just as elusive.

If you are asking me what I feel when I do chi kung, well then, you just made my point. How I feel is my personal experience (my subjective feeling). If it is based on feeling and not some observable independent event, then who is to say that my exercise, your exercise, Yum Cha's, isn't or is this "internal" qi kung experience.

Much less start with this whole internal is superior to external bullcrap.

Yes we are made up of energy, but also matter as well, so what does that mean.

I never tried Reiki and not too familiar with it, but I am open to it and it's possible healing powers. But that doesn't prove to me the existence of qi and thereof as an independent phenomenom.

[Lowlynobody]

Much less start with this whole internal is superior to external bullcrap.

I would say that you are the first person to bring this up in this thread. From reading your posts (mainly the way you keep trying to turn the discussion a certain way) I get the feeling you are bringing a lot of baggage into this discussion. Which you are then projecting onto what other people are saying.

Just about every time you have posted you have said the same thing. I think we get your point of view already.

To give us some background - what style do you currently study and who is your bak mei sifu?


Yum Cha,

Way to not be able to take some of your own medicine :cool:

[TAO YIN]

Fu Ying,

Did that E=MC2 bit fly right over your head?

[Fu-Ying]

lowly-

Posters voicing their opinion has become a psychological emotional baggage release?

I thought everyone is here to discuss kungfu and martial arts openly; or is it that one must agree with your opinion in order to be free of any emotional turmoil....?

Not only are you assuming you are also condecending in your words. If that is your preferred way of communicating then i say, my post was addressed to Soykuil, so MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

I don't do bak mei.

Tao Yin-

When you say something of significance I will respond.

[Soykuil]

Fu ying,
everyones experience with chi is different, yes that is true. but i still don't believe that a bak mei set can be internal.
Like i have said before is their version of internal a softer more relaxed form?

You still need to cultivate chi, you cannot get it through an external hand set. you don't just start doing a form and then presto you have the feeling of chi.

So the millions of people doing chi gung to cultivate chi and stay healthy are wrong by your standard. None of them practice external arts without chi gung, or what about the sifus of different external styles that compliment their art with an internal system, are they wrong too?

At the end of the day chi is there, you cannot control it, it will move around as needed. when we practice chi gung we all feel much of the same, our hands heat up, the tingling in the body. it is all the same, the only difference is the amount of chi you feel depending on how long you have practiced.

The same with reiki, you say you know nothing about it. the universal energy is channelled through us to heal as needed. i do not control it it just heals and that is it. it therefore heals each person differently because we are all different yet the feelings we get as the channellers is the same.

what styles have you trained in?
i have never said that internal is superior to external, i have said that i have been hit differently and it is more penetrating. i think you guys are misunderstanding us.
this is a debate and everyine has differing opinions about this

[TAO YIN]

Fu Ying,

Finally dude, that is the point. Nothing is significant. Man you got your blinkers on. Interesting, I was waiting for you to say, "I don't know; why don't you tell me?" What sucks so much about your reply, seeing as how I know you actually meant that literally, is that what I said is significant to this discussion only. What I said is especially "significant" to some of your posts because you are sitting there typing metaphysics this and that. I guess I was trying to give you a "helping hand," a road if you will, for some of the mess you have been spewing to tread on. If you don't understand the basic rational of something or how to express it, there is no reason for you to use some word to try to describe it. If you don't understand the basic idea that QI directly relates to E=MC2, why are you talking physics or metaphysics? Anyways, since I just told you, since I just mentioned it, now you can bend your next post to try and act like you know. In your next post, of course you will know this. Not only because I just told you, but also because you of course knew beforehand.

Anyway, you don't do Bak Mei? Yes, I know that wasn't meant for me to reply to, but you don't do Bak Mei? I'm all about others opinions, but if you don't do Bak Mei, then you don't do Jik Bo. You are driving a different car. Let me guess, "it's all the same?"

Anyways, if you want to act cool about it, like you tried to with your little sentence, I'll stick by nothing is significant. Why is nothing significant Fu Ying? What are you trying to say anyway? Summed up you have said one thing: "Internal is nothing more than a metaphysical experience." You're wasting words, and so am I. I'm sorry dude; I really am. You are to easy to troll, and I wasn't even meaning to.

[Fu-Ying]

soy kuil-

A feeling of chi. Yum Cha, do you feel chi when you do jik bo?

Millions of people do chi and compliment there "external style" ok, but millions more just practice their art and don't call it external or internal; and if this is such a fudamental truth, then you can include all physical sports that have no such concepts, are these billions of people wrong beacuse they are missing something?

I have trained in shing yi, choi lei fut, tai chi and judo. I like the bak mei style but sifu's are far and few.

Tao Yin-

Stop trying to be mysterious, your only coming across like a bafoon. So, enlighten me tell me how E=mc2 is related to qi. I am open minded, convince me.

Because i don't do bak mei means I don't know what jik bo is? Maybe I know people who do bak mei. Hmmm....oops...owned.

I didn't say nothing is significant. I just said YOU are INSIGNIFICANT.

[TAO YIN]

:D

I figured as much. I am coming across as a bafoon to YOU! If I am coming across as a bafoon to others, then they also do not know what they or I am talking about, just like YOU! hehehehe! No, you didn't type that I am insignificant. You typed, "When you say something of significance I will respond." However, I KNOW I AM INSIGNIFICANT! YOU ARE INSIGNIFICANT TOO!

"Nowadays, more people act like sociopaths; on internet forums that is."

TY

[Soykuil]

Many people differentiate between external and internal and do classify their arts by those terms.
You trained in Choy Li Fut right? Are their external hands internal? they have added chi gung, like the 18 lohans etc.

Tell me then do you get the same results from hsing yi and Choy Li Fut? Is the training the same, use of power? CLF does use external power alot softer than some other but still external power.

I have trained in Jow Ga, similar to CLF and i cannot see how it is internal.

Do your friends who train in Bak Mei say that Jik Bo is internal and have they learnt chi gung that is bak mei?

Tao Yin, i got your point....You are so insignificant dude...LOL

[fiercest tiger]

I will post again later as this thread is really great, no player haters here just REAL KUNG FU people wanting to exchange knowlegde. So no one should be throwing stones, u know?!

OK, there is a pic of CLC in sitting meditation for a start, if he thought that Bak Mei was internal by doing just Fast hand forms then he wouldnt be sitting in mediation. I also have Great Grandmaster Ha Hon Hung in other sitting meditations with the monks for Internal YKM.

Here is a question, Does anyone know what the Meditations that CLC practised or learnt was for? Did CLC learnt the Meditation from Jok Fat Wan? I heard it was for the GING that he produced??

1st lesson to understand CHI.....In stillness comes MOTION!

If you do not understand that you will never understand KUNG FU!

TRUELY, this is a very interesting thread because we are not just debating and not so much arguing but rather its great to see what level people are at within there art and where they are headed.

FT

[Lowlynobody]

Who said anything about psychological emotional baggage? I said "baggage". Again a prime example of an inability to read what is actually written and not reply to what you "think" I'm saying. If you look at the fact that it seems you signed up to this forum (and you probably already have a regular name on KFO already) to post in this thread then you'll see what I mean about baggage.

Emotional turmoil? Where do you get this stuff?

You're **** right I'm condescending. Why wouldn't I be? You're posting in a thread regarding a subject you know absolutely nothing about - jik bo and bak mei. It’s amusing.

[Fu-Ying]

Soy kuil-

yes i know many people classify their styles according to these lines, but it is not a popularity contest, and even if it is, like I said before kungfu is in the minority with these terms.

CLF and hsingyi moves their body and strike differently.

As far as feel is concerned, it feels the same when you have to do full contact. Form wise, one feels different because you move differently. CLF uses full body turning and twisting, hingyi is more compact and don't use swinging type strikes, more like bakmei. They both faat ging as well and that feels the same, and they both have chi gung sets as well. This goes as well for tai chi, feels different cause you move differently doing forms, but during full contact it feels the same.

Does that make one internal and the other external? Or are they just labels that we put on them.

My friend who learned bak mei say he has chi gung sets, but he fights and faat ging just like everyone else. He also don't like the idea of these false labels internal/external.

lowly-

Let me give you a re-cap of what is goin on here, cause obviously you cannot make a connection, between what you said to Yum Cha and others like him and what I said.

You tell Yum cha bak mei is not internal he thinks it is, and you go into a whole elaborate debate about micro- macro orbits, so on so on....

I say internal/external are just states of mind to visualize their own feeling during training, therby making Yum cha's idea and feeling of internal just as valid as yours. If it is states of mind then who are you to say he is not doing "internal"?

And that I do not need to know bak mei jik bo in order for me to say. Incidentally, maybe I was taught jik bo or maybe have a good understanding of it, maybe beacuse i know people who know it.....oops.....got OWNED too.

[Soykuil]

I don't think the labels are inaccurate, i am sorry, what i do think is that people have misunderstood real internal.

It is obvious we are talking about different levels of internal. Let me ask you then, how natural are your moves within the systems? i ask this because we are talking about different things.

In my LHBF i am taught to have no body just be natural, breathing is natural, the moves are natural everything is relaxed. Follow the Dao as my LHBF sifu tells me.
when we spar, it is all soft on our side, there is no real force. In LHBF you could call it dead arms.
Now my LHBF sifu learnt, taught, fought and trained fighters in CLF. he gave it all up when he started training in LHBF and Wan Yern

In YKM and Jow Ga, bak mei and so on we are taught to have the luk ging, Hum hun Baat boi, TTFC etc. Now this is also taught in tai chi, hsing yi, baqua etc, but i have never been taught that way, as per LHBF. This is my understanding of internal.

Without sounding rude, from what i have seen and felt, there is a real difference. A true internal art can show the difference between the arts.

In YKM we have 3 internal forms, these are our highest levels. the first form is a healing form, second is fighting and third is the highest, the training.

Do the Bak Mei, CLF, Jow ga etc develop the chi during the training of the forms to help heal???

Now i am going deeper into internal, but this should help you understand what true internal means to me.
Like we have said before, we all may be on different levels.

[fiercest tiger]

We arent talking about sparring and fighting we are talking about JIK BO as internal. You now have gone off topic! What you say is partially right, about sparring except that if you train chi kung and meditation that will enhance the chi to be flowing better and you CAN be more relaxed when you spar or fight. This depends on what type of MEDITATION you practise as there are many that a system has in order to make you A) A fighter B) Healthing and health C) Spiritial NOT ALL MEDS GIVE YOU THE 3 MENTIONED but thats why there are some systems that are more internal then others.

Now sparring, i think most look the same, but inside arent the same when one has done more chi kung then the other, if they have done it right!! Even MMA use chi kung and meditations to help over come FEAR, relaxation and make the moves faster. Ever Traditional art must have meditation as it helps balance out the yang or i believe its lost its ROOTS somewhere.

Soykuil,

Alot of arts use natural breathing, but the main thing is what we train we cannot explain in words due to its complexities of whats going on inside and the Butt. When we fight yes we all use Faht Ging thats normal, but the delevery of the strike doesnt have to be from the whole body like the arts you explained. :)

FT

[HupGerk]

fu ying,

There are specific practices in the internal martial arts that are designed to bring about a high level of internal development. These practices are not found in the external arts.

When I read your post about the external and internal systems feeling the same, I get the impression that you are doing internal forms in an external manner.

Regards

HG

[adi]

i agree with whats been said , but in the wild the tiger always attacks from a secure position, usually from the back to aviod the horns of the pray . So could this mean we should work on stances and position to aviod injury . The leopard never gives up always fights to the finish even when faced with a tiger , the tiger will mark its home range but the leopard will still fight even though it will die perhaps that can tell us somthing aswell.

[mantis108]

The 108th post of this thread. Sorry, guys can't help. :D please continue...

Mantis108

[Go Jun Long]

i agree with whats been said , but in the wild the tiger always attacks from a secure position, usually from the back to aviod the horns of the pray . So could this mean we should work on stances and position to aviod injury . The leopard never gives up always fights to the finish even when faced with a tiger , the tiger will mark its home range but the leopard will still fight even though it will die perhaps that can tell us somthing aswell.

Its not always just a secure place Adi, but if you look at it the prey is always fleeing, so where else is the Tiger going to attack from but from the back. It sneaks up on prey as close as possible and then attacks, usually causing the prey to flee, giving chase but not long though. Eventually going to the sure kill, the neck.
I agree many people have a possible misrepresentation of the animal influence in the arts, but its good to hear everyones opinions.

[Lowlynobody]

The other night while sparing I bit my sparing partner on the mouth and nose then took him down untill he stopped breathing. Sifu was outside lounging around up in a tree watching. It was totally sweet.


:eek:

[TAO YIN]

:D Best post ever Bro!

[fiercest tiger]

It was great watching from the tree, until the rest of boys started eating the *****es ass out from behind like a bunch of Hyenas!
lol

eat it yeah biatch!

[adi]

intenal and extenal styles soft and hard styles , to develop diffrent ways of applying and feeling energy what can be gained from learing a little about everything , it must be better to know one style well and practice every day than worriyng about what other styles do or dont do. we cant learn everything about everything . Its nice to know thier are difrent energys ways of using them but perhaps not getting to involved because wouldnt this lead to problems in training.

[fiercest tiger]

External or hard chi kung builds different things to internal, what do you study?

Stick to internal thats all you need!

[fiercest tiger]

Matthew,

We are on both 2 different paths as you know, but we go way back! I respect what you do and never really ment to say you dont know BAK MEI just the internal side you dont really practise which is a shame.:) When answering questions on the forum its hard to feel the way you say it as you do give half a$$ed answers and try and make people think. My purpose of my comments was to try and clear up internal training comparing external training, that Jik Bo Kuen wasnt internal TO ME, and to attain micor-cosmic orbit isnt an easy task let alone trying to step finger thrust and punch as well move the chi in the bodys orbits.

You also have to understand that you also put down and say stuff that is offensive to me and my teachers sometimes even in light humor. I let it slip and laugh it off. We are Not best buddies i know but we understand each other and we can sit down and talk rational about things as we have done many times before. My students are similar to me and i teach them internal methods, so they share my thoughts and training methods! So they do have alot to talk and exchange about regarding internal bak mei, ykm, bak fu pai. I am a firm believer that you cannot achieve the high levels of those arts without the chi kung, meditations thats why we are arguing these points. The forum is to learn and educate brothers and sisters and sometime we all dont have the answers therefore one must seek other teachers of higher attainment of energy developement etc.

My coments wasnt to put you down or belittle you infront of the members here or your students, but to make clear my prospectives are on this subject as i do student what you study but now have more of internal training. You thoughts and sharing is always good here even for an old donkey like you!;)

my appologies matthew and to his clan!

FT:)

[Yum Cha]

We're cool Garry. Thanks for the note.

[adi]

thanks for the advice , the chi gung i practice is built into yhe forms . i think that this is a more complete way of training . it means that you progress at the same rate your forms chi gung . lung ying is the same so is wing chun . But that doesnt mean that you are a master of chi gung because you can do a form because both forms and chi gung take many years of practice.
wing chun uses budda palm but how many people really understand it , and can apply it properly?, there are difrences between diffrent branches of the same family tree , some people like to do fook sau as if they are pushing a heavey block , and other people like to keep it relaxed . but in both cases its done realy slowly . but i do feel it makes a fundamental part of the way we apply the art.
the problem is when you have been doing one style and you change it takes a long time to progress because you have two different things in your head.

[Tiger on Duty]

I think this is probably the best pak mei discussion i have seen, however having said that, there does seem to be some confusion over internal /external with jik bo etc etc.

1st what internal aspects do you think pak mei is after?


I do not think you can compare pak mei to tai chi in the internal department because the aims of the styles are very different, pak mei is aggressive tai chi defensive and the chi development is similiar to the aim of the style, pak mei practitioners can harness large amounts of chi but for very different purposes than tai chi, Wong kiew kit the famous shaolin sifu described pak mei as being a very powerful chi style but its chi use was almost purely for combative purposes, so as garry says if you want self development type chi gung then pak mei is not the style for you, which could be the reason pak mei sifu go on to learn other internal arts, or it just could be that they have not been taught the style properly and are filling in the blanks themselves.

So i think people are pigeonholing internal to mean soft, self development type chi when they forget the chi cultivation for combat.
Jik bo is an internal form cultivating aggressive chi development for combat purposes.

when comparing pak mei to other internal styles i always think of hsing yi and chen tai chi both hard , soft and explosive. compared to either of these styles i think pak mei is on par combat wise however internally i belive they are both more advanced as they have a greater focus on chi development for well being and not just combat.

Well thats my view anyhow.
Hello to all the aussie ykm and pak mei brothers.
Hello to all the other brothers i havent met yet.

Dave who is your sifu?

If you want to read more about the tiger and leopard concepts visit our site
http://www.chinesemartialarts.org.nz/ look under pak mei/concepts.

[fiercest tiger]

I think the Bak Mei forms develop alot of external force and can give you excellent muscle tone but can hurt you if done wrong. As for the Bak Mei i have learnt there is meditations for fighting and well healing.

Taiji is and can be a fighting art if trained for that, but its internal health benifits are very good as you have said. Do you think Bak Mei himself developed just a fighting art or a complete system of healing and fighting? I mean legend says he couldnt be hurt and he could move his energy around at will and hide his weak points? :)


FT

[Tiger on Duty]

I dont worry about legends, i worry about losing what we have.
Our bak mei also has some chi gung etc besides the fighting forms, however its not as developed as some of the more recognised internal styles.
Like yourself garry my sifu has said many times that bak mei is great for general health and fitness especially for the bones muscles and tendon's, however for long term fitness and fighting ability he recommends tai chi or something similiar.

[Yum Cha]

This is interesting Garry, on this, we're on the same page. And, Tiger has it right too.

Pak Mei chi gung as I've learned it is not just about keeping the power inside, but about putting it into something else. This starts as an external power, but becomes more internal as you reach the higher levels. No big secret here.


The chi gung, again, that I have learned, is about summonsing the "fire" and moving it around your body in a meditative exercise, then it involves learning to move that "fire". This fire can also be used to heal, by directing it into your pain/sickness, or to protect, by putting it into your vulnerable points and to destroy, by putting it into your strikes...

Now, is this a soft skill? It has more relaxed elements, and it has a meditative component, but its application can be hard and agressive. And there is a whole basket of psychological elements woven in as well.

[fiercest tiger]

Yummy, Now we are getting somewhere, maybe if you gave this answer before there could have been no misunderstandings as such?!

Is your method a Kundalini type meditation of you just hooking up the fire and water? Sometimes simple sitting meds, walking moving meds that buddhist do are the easiest and the best to cultivate mind but im not too sure about CHI? Anyone care to add? I myself think that Daoist CHI cultivation is much more advanced in ways the Buddhist but thats going off my experiences. I dont know too much about the tendon and bone marrow washing chi kung of Damo so cant comment here. I can say that the YKM internal forms are very good for health and cultivation chi for fighting as well healing but isnt as deep or advanced as the WUN YUEN YUT HEI JURNG that im learning at this time. Once i do finish it ill be going back to my YKM internal to see what other differences and similarities there are.

Tiger,

True, But thats all you guys have is legends!;) Just kidding!!! I think your Sifu is correct but i dont know what meds you guys of CLC have or if they have been added to from your Sifu? Your Sifu does Taiji so he can definitely tell you whats good and whats not. Does he reconmend taiji for long time health and fighting compared to bak mei fight?

Good to get this thread going again guys.

Garry FT:)

[Pakmei]

How you doing m8.

Sorry I haven't been back on the board for a while guys... been having some major problems with my computer for the past month. Whats more the computer problem still isn't resolved and I'm awaiting for the manufacturer to come and collect my machine so they can take it back to the factory.

Anyway Tiger, I believed you were asking who my Sifu is?

Sifu Tang Cho Tak; 6th Generation and Disciple to the late Cheung Bing Faat.

Hope that clarifies who I trained under and where my lineage is.

Regards

[Tiger on Duty]

Yes he does garry, as he puts it when your young strong and fast pak mei is basically all you need, he believes that when u get older and your not as fast strong etc using an aggressive style like pak mei might not be as good as using a more defensive style which is easier on the body for training daily.
Thats just his opinion. sounds pretty good to me thou, except i dont have the mindset for tai chi yet.

Oh thats great lineage steven, means where 7th gen brothers.

What aspects of pak mei does that lineage follow?
i.e what forms are stressed above others, i never really cared about the weapons as they vary from school to school.

If you know of our lineage from Chan goh wah, you may know we have no external forms except ying jow lim kiu, 1 intermediate form created by our sigung gum gong and 1 begginers form created by my sifu daijin.
Otherwise we have the core forms of jik bo, gau bo toi, saap bhat mor kiu and mung fu chut lam.

emphasis for us is stressed on jik bo as the foundation and gau bo toi for the refinement of the pak mei power, saap bhat mor kiu for the softness and mang fu for only the true disciples.

All the other forms have benefits but are not considered as important as the core(original forms).

The reason i ask is ive read a few of your posts and you seem to be quite similiar in your focus, and their arnt many schools ive found that share those same qualities. Even ones related to cheung bing lam's lineage.
It's been along time since i heard of any cheung bing faat related schools so its good to know there still around.

do your forms look anything like ours?? check out our website if you havent been yet.
www.chinesemartialarts.org.nz

cheers tiger

[Pakmei]

Hello Tiger and everyone,
Sorry for the delay in responding to any messages, PM's and/or emails. My computer at home has been returned to the factory to be fixed or replaced. I won't get it back until end of this week, so hence I'm having to use the computer at work to respond to messages.

You were asking what we learn in the Bing Faat lineage?
This is the order that everything is learnt:
1) Jik Bo Kuen
2) Ying Jow Lim Liu Kuen
3) Sahp Jee Kuen
4) Saam Lahm (1st sparring form)
5) Gow Bo Tuew
6) Say Mun Pa Kwa Kuen
7) Saam Mun Choi
8) Chi Sau/Saan (2nd Sparring form)
9) Sahp Baa Morr Kiu Kuen
10) Man Fu Chu Lum.

Emphasis is heavily placed on Jik Bo and Gow Bo Tuew for the foundation, body shape and power generation and not to mention body conditioning. The last 2 forms are taught to true disciples only!

However, the way that we train is by teaching the techniques of the forms first of all, before actually teaching the student the form. This way they get the feel of the movements/techniques in prcatice and application before linking it all up into a pre-arranged sequence.

I've found by teaching this way, it also makes it a lot easier for the student to learn the form, once they have an idea of the techniques from the form both from a singular component as well as a combination of techniques.

[Tiger on Duty]

Ah very intersting lineup of forms nothing amazing as to the forms but interesting in the progress.

1st school ive seen that has sub jee but teaches it after jik bo, thats great im biased of course coming from my lineage i dislike most of the hybrid forms, well the ones that dont maintain the true pak mei essence like sub jee and sam mun, ying jow is pretty good thou a good conversion.
Before evryone jumps down my throat thats just my opinion.
I just dont see the point in learning forms that depart from the pak mei basic principles, why learn about 6 points of power, ttfc and then learn forms that dont use them?
Of course the answer is Clc taught them and we are a traditional style so thats the way it goes :)

I would like to say it seems theres a good dialogue goin on here between the pak mei players and i hope it continues.

Zaijian

[Lowlynobody]

Why would you not be able to perform sets such as sup jee with luk hup (6 points) and ttfc? If you have trained the principles and your body has them then any fighting movement would then contain the principles, no?

[fiercest tiger]

Nice combo of forms although i beg to differ regarding the hybrid forms. If anything in bak mei i would only learn for fighting is Day Sut Kuen!

The rest repeats or simply not worth it due to its fighting range and what they lack there of.

Anyone wanna comment please do so!

FT

[Go Jun Long]

Nice combo of forms although i beg to differ regarding the hybrid forms. If anything in bak mei i would only learn for fighting is Day Sut Kuen!

The rest repeats or simply not worth it due to its fighting range and what they lack there of.

Anyone wanna comment please do so!

FT


Not too sure I agree with all that, and Day Sat is a very acrobatic form. Yes many of the hundreds of forms in Bak Mei repeat, that is why it has been drawn down to the core 7 forms. The other forms are there to teach the changes. This is now done in different ways to reduce the amount of forms. But believe me, they are all fighting forms, and anyone who thinks otherwise really does not have a true understanding of the forms and/or their meanings and changes.
Its good to hear the different reasons one or ones lineage practices certain forms, ie Chi Gung, Fa Ging, internal, external etc.. though I have not heard from anyone the reasons we do. I find it fascinating the differences between the sects of Bak Mei.
Hum, maybe we should start a thread to address the reason certain forms exist and what one uses them for. Good Day all

[Tiger on Duty]

actually six points is very specific and is not found in all pak mei movements, so you can train all u like in it but if you use a movement that isnt 6 points then you dont have it.

Some of the hybrid forms dont use the six points of power, therfore you cant use it. That is the point im making.

lmao again im sure people will disagree but thats ok.

Also im not saying that the hybrid forms cant be used, just that some are lacking in the basic principles of pak mei.

If it works for you garry thats cool.

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah, i know what you guys mean but im seeing things alot different these days and i think that Bak Mei of CLC only has one form that deals with groundfighting and its very basic and can beat a basic grappler but not a true Garppler. Most of the Bak Mei or Hakka hand deals with upper and middle but not the lower platform for fighting. So i think that Day Sut has the Attributes to train stand up and ground to a degree!

YKM internal forms are the best fighting system i have come across due to its fighting, training methods, chi kung. I dont practise Bak Mei anymore i do teach it the forms of bak mei that is in YKM but my training is on the Internal YKM system which i think is more effective as it trains stand up, clinch, throws, takedowns, submissions thats within the form and no need to add BJJ or anything to help.

Bak Mei is a great stand up art in my opionion but i can now see why YKM internal art was kept secret to a degree.

Day Sut Kuen is very good against some grapplers but is lacking some! I dont see why you need 5-6 forms that share the same moves and repeat even if it adding another stage or training attribute rather then a new form that deals with a certain type of range not just stand up as most bak mei forms do!

anyone care to add? The above is my Opinion only guys not starting an arguement but its what i see as the truth within myself.

peace
FT:)

[Lowlynobody]

actually six points is very specific and is not found in all pak mei movements, so you can train all u like in it but if you use a movement that isnt 6 points then you dont have it.

Some of the hybrid forms dont use the six points of power, therfore you cant use it. That is the point im making.

lmao again im sure people will disagree but thats ok.

Also im not saying that the hybrid forms cant be used, just that some are lacking in the basic principles of pak mei.

If it works for you garry thats cool.

What movements in your opinion don't make use of the 6 points (i.e using the whole body)? If not all movements contain a certain principle how can it be a foundation principle? So in a fight or sparing you would have to restrict yourself to those specific few movements that contain the 6 points otherwise you're not using "pure" bak mei and not hiting with your whole body?

Perhaps a good way to clear up what you are saying is to explain how, to you, a movement would not contain the six points as oposed to one that does.

I'm interested to see your reply.

Also one last quick question - Do you spar at your school? If so what form does it take e.g gloves, mouthguard, etc or more a chi sau bare hand and head gear sort?

[Go Jun Long]

Yeah, i know what you guys mean but im seeing things alot different these days and i think that Bak Mei of CLC only has one form that deals with groundfighting and its very basic and can beat a basic grappler but not a true Garppler. Most of the Bak Mei or Hakka hand deals with upper and middle but not the lower platform for fighting. So i think that Day Sut has the Attributes to train stand up and ground to a degree!

YKM internal forms are the best fighting system i have come across due to its fighting, training methods, chi kung. I dont practise Bak Mei anymore i do teach it the forms of bak mei that is in YKM but my training is on the Internal YKM system which i think is more effective as it trains stand up, clinch, throws, takedowns, submissions thats within the form and no need to add BJJ or anything to help.

Bak Mei is a great stand up art in my opionion but i can now see why YKM internal art was kept secret to a degree.

Day Sut Kuen is very good against some grapplers but is lacking some! I dont see why you need 5-6 forms that share the same moves and repeat even if it adding another stage or training attribute rather then a new form that deals with a certain type of range not just stand up as most bak mei forms do!

anyone care to add? The above is my Opinion only guys not starting an arguement but its what i see as the truth within myself.

peace
FT:)


Garry, I understand where you are coming from, and I think its good you found YOUR art, the one that works best for you. I also see where you are coming from about learning 6 or so forms that deal with stand up fighting, but fighting, though really very simple, is also very complex with having so many variables. This is why, I believe, there are versions of the same thing with different approaches. As with Bak Mei and ground fighting, no there really are no forms that "Specifically or Totally" deal with ground fighting, but all forms have changes that will deal with ground fighters (if that makes any sense :) ). Anyone care to add to this?

[Tiger on Duty]

[What movements in your opinion don't make use of the 6 points (i.e using the whole body)? If not all movements contain a certain principle how can it be a foundation principle? So in a fight or sparing you would have to restrict yourself to those specific few movements that contain the 6 points otherwise you're not using "pure" bak mei and not hiting with your whole body?]

do you truly believe evry technique u use makes use of evrypart of the body thus qualifying as six points?

If you retreat into a cat stance and palm strike are you using six points?

If you drop to the ground and do a double scissor takedown(day sut) are you six points of power?

if you do a hopping kick are you using sixpoints?

Im not sure why you have brought sparring into this? or claims of pure pak mei?
Im talking about pak mei essence which is the foundation characteristics of our style, which makes us unique.

Yes by harnessing an understanding of six points, geng gak ging and ttfc we can use many techniques to a better degree then their purely external counterparts, but that does not mean that they are actually six points of power.

As Garry has rightly stated if you look at pak mei in this way there arnt many techniques that actually qualify as truly six points, making the style narrow in focus, But again what is pak mei trying to achieve? Quick aggressive incapacitation so how many six points of power techniques do you need?
Obviously garry's journy has found a different path, im happy with pak mei.

1-2-3 IMHO.

Once again i will state for lowly that im not saying the techniques dont work if you dont have sixpoints im saying certain forms dont really conform to the basic principles of pak mei a big difference to what you are implying lowly.

[fiercest tiger]

IMHO i think you can develop the whole body in everything as we are one anyway. Thats what form is supposed to do dont you think?

Unless you use 3 boarder ging then yeah you are punching half heartedly and not full force.

Gou

Does Futsan have a ground fighting form or something close or is to defeat a ground fighter? Not a form that beats a shoot but beats from the ground?

I still think Day sut is the best CLC Bak Mei form in the system.

FT:)

[Lowlynobody]

As Garry has rightly stated if you look at pak mei in this way there arnt many techniques that actually qualify as truly six points, making the style narrow in focus, But again what is pak mei trying to achieve? Quick aggressive incapacitation so how many six points of power techniques do you need?
Obviously garry's journy has found a different path, im happy with pak mei.


You have miss read/understood what sifu has said. If you don't use your body in striking for example you are simply arm punching and every martial art out there including sport martial arts would tell you that is wrong and ineffective in terms of power and in terms of opening yourself up to be hit. So are sport martial artists when they are using the whole body to punch and teach that arm punching is bad teaching external or internal?

I think that perhaps our forms may be different to yours. Being in cat using double butterfly palms such as in day sut you still drive off the rear leg, turn your waist, use the back, extend through the shoulders, open the elbows, and pull your fingers back using the wrist in the palming motion to release the power into the strike.

For the scissor leg take down you still have to drive into the leap with the legs, use the waist and the torso to aid the legs in the scissor mortion. We have trained this on heavy bags and you flip them through the air.

By that sort of thinking any sort of kicks would not use the whole body. What about the kick behind the leg in gau bo toi or sub baat mor kuil?

I'm not sure what you mean by a hopping kick?

My question about sparing was just a simple question. Nothing more. Its a disscussion. I was just interested to know how you train.

I never claimed anything about pure bak mei you came up with that on your own. Please don't miss read. In the context of my questions the word "pure" and "essance" are interchangeable. Where using only the essence of bak mei is using pure bak mei i.e just bak mei and its theories or principles. You see?

Regarding 1-2-3 and finished - what happens if this doesn't work? What then? If you are only prepared to throw 3 strikes with the first probably being your set up then you may find the person isn't taken out and you have missed your opportunity. Better to throw 10 strikes and overwelm the person and keep going untill they go down and stay down.

Anybody that knows me knows I never imply anything. I say what I mean. There is nothing to be read into my words. They are simply what they are. I'm not pushing some hidden meaning waiting for you to slip up so i can say "Ah har! There you see I'm right!" I'm just trying to discuss martial arts and get other perspectives rather than going through my life with blinkers on ignoring the infinate possibilities that exist.

Cheers

[Tiger on Duty]

maybe i came across a little strong :)

as for whole body etc im talking about six points of power, six points and whole body are not the same thing. If it was, any style who used the whole body would have six points of power but they dont.

obviuosly your focus for combat is different from ours does that make ours incorrect or less likely to work? no its a different focus or way of thinking.

In our pak mei there are different levels of combat:

1st no defence just attack, which if you fail in your 1st 3 techniques to achieve a ko is what you describe keep attacking until they go down. Obviuosly this leaves you open to overextension, and if you still cant take them down cracks in your attack will appear and you will get hammered.

2nd stick/trap, by sticking to the range you want them at or trapping them so they cant get away you control them until a opening arises.

3rd no defense just counter, the highest level where you counter their attack with the intent being on landing your most devastating blows.

so yeh differing ways of thinking about combat.

Your understanding of sixpoints of power obviuosly differs from us so we'll leave it at that. you dont have to agree with me or even believe me so thats cool.

Cheers a great discussion.

[Olaf]

Dave,

I heard Chi Saan is the two man set that is linked to Sap Baat Mor Kiu. In that case I find it interesting that it is taught before the handset. Is there a reason for that?

[Lowlynobody]

Don't worry about coming across too strong. Most of us have quite strong personalities and many of us can be fiery and agressive when it comes to talking about the things we are passionate about - fighting & martial arts. So if I get excited and a little worked up in my posts please don't take it personally as it not intended that way.

Thanks for giving us and insight into how you see fight training development. I would never (and have not) say that your focus for combat is incorrect or less likely to work. I have never met you in person let alone spared you so I'm certainly not qualified to comment either way. I feel that is about the only way someone could make comments in that regard - by experiencing it for themself.

There is obviously a difference in our understanding on the luk ging of bak mei. Which as you say is cool. I'm sure you and your school use it to great effect.

What kind of gets me going is the elitist-ness that sometimes comes from bak mei people and others including MMA people. Their elitist way of thinking can be blinding.

While we are on the subject of the different levels of combat in your Bak Mei I wonder if you wouldn't mind answering my question about how you go about sparing or live and free flowing fight training at your school? Anyone else as well.

Cheers


P.S I dissagree with you when you say that throwing many strikes leads to overextension and holes in your defence. Once you get the strike in that gets a reaction you can move in and continue to move forward throwing strikes like a machine gun overwelming them. It greatly depends on HOW you use the tactic. I'm not talking about simply closing with a flurry of blows. That will get you caught.

A good way would be a fake or set up (footwork or body evaision etc) followed by a short combo that if land well can be followed by moving in (not necessarily directly forward) and overwelming as well as a plan to create distance and back out of the exchange if needed and use weapons like kicks to keep them back so they can't capitalise.

[Pakmei]

Hi Olaf,
How you doing m8?

There are techniques in Chi Sau / Saan that are from Sahp Baa Morr Kiu, but there are quite a few from Gow Bo Teuw.

It's how it's taught in Tang Sifu's school. I certainly know that when he first started teaching Pak Mei in the UK back in the 70's. He only taught the techniques first to the students and later on the forms. That way he ensured that the students were able to use each and every technique separately before putting it into a sequence.

So you could say that your learning some of the techniques from Sahp Baa Morr Kiu as well as consolidating the techniques from Gow Bo Teuw, before going on to learning the actual Sahp Baa Morr Kiu form.

Each Sifu, will teach in their own particular way. That's how Tang Sifu taught.

[Olaf]

Dave, that makes sense. What I heard that the link with SBMK is also in the application of the power.

[Pakmei]

Olaf,
The application of power in SBMK is heavily influenced in the whipping like hands.

By this I mean, you may cast your mind back to when we were in HK and I performed SBMK for Hung Sifu that time. SBMK is 'soft' and fast..... the softness and power comes from the whipping like hands movements, while maintaining a strong foundation from GBTK.

On Sifu, Hung Sifu's friend mentioned to me that he knew I had leanrt SBMK, while he was watching me perform the other forms they got me to do, because my hand movements were faster and softer, than how some people tend to perform Pak Mei.

On a basic level, Chi Sau / Saan has the foundation from GBTK and the hand skill of SBMK.

[Olaf]

It is indeed the softness that I mean. I think we are in violent agreement :)

[Hardtail]

Tiger on Duty, it would appear that we are on similar paths in respect to the progress of forms and perhaps training , i.e. : Jik Bou - Gou Bou Teoi - Sup Bat Mor Kiu - Mang Fu Chut Lum, there is one other after this, Mang Fu Hau San, which I have never seen.
Certainly from SBMK upwards are only for those dedicated, time served and closely trusted.
There are no other Sau Kuen at all in the Pak Mei I have been taught. Our teacher by the way was taught by both Chow Fook and Un Ho Bun.
The forms shown on your website are very similar indeed.

[Tiger on Duty]

ah that is cool, havent seen any schools close to ours yet(in emphasis and movement) except my sibak Chan(sigungs son), so i would love to see a brief clip of your forms if possible, not the external forms please since we dont do most of those. jik bo would be good.

We have some clips of chow fook and his students, his student is wearing our t shirt lol dont know why?? day sut if i remember correctly and Sifu chow did mang fu.
Sifu Chow is or was part of my sifu's organisation we have many of the group photo's.

I think mang fu hau san was a failed form, or so secret he didnt even teach half his disciples it?

Lowly we hardly do any sparring, some two man sets and my sihing and myself train everynow and then.
In my sifu's day they sparred at 100% intent, unfortunately this isnt practical for us as we dont wanna be in hospital for 6 weeks.
This has its problems but all training has weakness.

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Tiger,

What is luk ging in your system and how u work it, connect it etc? Interesting info coming through indeed!

As for fighting Lowly and myself spar everyday and we are both different sizes and speeds. I think he is starting to work out my methods so i will change it but he is doing well. My YKM system is fighting based as well forms but we are doing alot of fighting. A HUGE discovery within my own art has sparked much new and serious fighting tactics, strength, theories etc so now no bak mei is used within our fighting and purely internal YKM art.

This being said i think punching and trappling range Bak Mei is one of the best arts for but as i once mentioned is lacking the lower gate and ground fighting thats why i believe Day Sut Kuen is best now of all Bak Mei FORMS. CLC added it for a reason and now i know why! I think you stick to more the core forms for fighting as well the forms your sifu made up? There are many interesting stuff in the 3 door eight direction form, 4 door form, day sut. Even Mung Fu is more a form designed for even closer range then punching.

Anyway sounds like you guys go hard at sparring too? 6 weeks in hospital isnt good.:)

FT

[Sui]

f.t about time


then you're doing it wrong.

[Tiger on Duty]

what are you talking about sui?

[fiercest tiger]

HEY, Hows things Bro?

Long Time, hope all is well with you mate? Email me is you get a chance!

FT Lonely for sui:)

[Sui]

f.t knows what i talk of,and thats all that matters in this moment in time.

f.t getting better thanks for asking,and you?
will do got a year or so to catch up on eh :) also very impressed with what you say on this long thread.

[Yum Cha]

Hya Sui. Don't tell me you've gone all soft now too?

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah maybe more then a year Bro!?

CATCHA...

FT

[Sui]

hey you yum,soft like dough or soft like the cycle of water?don't forget the more aboard,the more the struggle,my i see you out of breath old man.lol

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

FT,

you mentioned the fire & water method. Interesting we use the fire, water & air energies (3 elements/forces of nature). Even in our basic Hung forms we use this method to get the chi flowing.

Have you heard of this method? I havn't heard of it mentioned before.

do you know if it's buddhist or taoist?


later,
Rob

[Yum Cha]

Hey Sui, its just a natural thing.....

Soft like dough, or soft like water, what't the difference?

Cheers

[fiercest tiger]

So who is the master of crspy creams now huh? :)

Golden Armour,

I dont really use this method i just have no intent (no mind) and just do! Whats more important in combat intent or reaction? :)

FT

[Yum Cha]

I show you how to eat Crispy Cream's like my Father showed me!

LOL

(Actually, in all truth, those bundles of animal fat and sugar turn my stomach.)