8-step MMA

[fa_jing]

So many masters have changed the footwork of their style when exposed to the footwork of Ba Gua. We have 8-step Tai Chi, 8-step Mantis, even 8-step Wing Chun. Do you all see any barriers to incorporating Ba Gua footwork into a standard MMA style based on boxing, wrestling and Muy Thai? :eek: :D

[Waidan]

To tell you the truth, that's an adaptation I've been expecting for a while now. Once I started training bagua and saw how practical and effective the footwork is, it changed my views on stepping, stances, and kicks forever.

The question in my mind isn't whether the footwork will make it into mainstream MMA, but rather how long it'll take the fighters to find it and see it for what it is :)

[Merryprankster]

The question in my mind isn't whether the footwork will make it into mainstream MMA, but rather how long it'll take the fighters to find it and see it for what it is

It will take the fighters precisely as long as it takes for a Ba Gua guy to step in the ring and kick some ass.

Until then, don't expect them to "recognize" it.

[fa_jing]

Well why does it have to be like that, Merry? Why can't the MMA guys be more proactive about researching fighting styles (assuming they are not, if they are we don't seem to hear about it)? After all, they are the ones who should be able to make it work, if it is possible at all. And what matters is if they can make it work, not some "master" who has put conforming to a style above immediate fighting effectiveness for many years.

You are casting the question as "can a Ba Gua fighter win in the ring" which may be how many fighters see it, but actually is not the point. If you look at the question like "can anything from Ba Gua be used in the ring" then I think the answer is yes. I'm sure you could find one move or one step in the system that a particular fighter would be able to integrate effectively into his repetoire.

To clarify what I mean, the question is not "would immersion in Ba Gua as a second style be the optimal allocation of time in terms of increasing fighting (or ring fighting) effectiveness?" The question I am posing is ""would exposure to Ba Gua as a second style be among the possible optimal allocations of time in terms of increasing fighting (or ring fighting) effectiveness?"

[red5angel]

8 step WC? WTF?


I think MP's point is valid. You're not going to get the attention of the MMA crowd until whatever it is get's out there and shows it works. If 8 step is effective, someone will give it a try, show it works well in that environment and others will get on board.

[Stranger]

There have been high profile fighters in the past that were able to incorporate moves or techniques outside of the standard MMA formula (bjj, MT Greco-Roman, boxing, etc.). Randy Couture, Rickson Gracie, and Frank Shamrock immediately come to mind, and I assume there are others. They didn't incorporate whole new arts into their training but specific elements were absorbed.

[Merryprankster]

fa jing,

It has to be like that because MMA types don't waste time. I'm not going waste my time on something that hasn't been demonstrably effective.

I've personally got nothing against Ba Gua or any other art. I also believe that appropriately trained arts are effective (they might look different than we expect - 'fighting' TKD looks different than 'tappity-tap game TKD), so it's not stylistic hubris.

But you are asking people to invest time and energy in something. I might dabble out of curiosity, possibly even pick up something - a move here or an idea there. But you can get that from playing with somebody who does something different from you. I'm not going to invest in adopting a large chunk of something (footwork is a large chunk and requires dedication to learn) if nobody's shown it works, especially when other things definitely DO work.

Further, I was in some measure responding to Waidan's word choices in his posting. He's been "expecting" MMAers to pick up on Ba Gua footwork apparantly, and wonders when they will "recognize" the value. The fastest, surest way to gain MMA attention is to step up and win consistently, against increasingly good opposition. Otherwise, don't expect them to recognize, because they will chalk it up to "Ah, yes, another unproven claim."

[Stranger]

The three fighters I listed did not see the techniques they absorbed win in the octagon, they were introduced into their training in practice (granted through experimentation during sparring). Maybe it just takes a new concept/technique being introduced by a trusted training partner or coach, not necessarily through witnessing somebody winning a tournie from the orthodox mother-system of the technique/concept.

[Merryprankster]

Stranger,

I made essentially that point - that somebody might pick up something here or there. But to invest time in something to the point that "MMA" would adopt it generally, the way it has adopted MT, Wrestling, Sambo, BJJ, Boxing, etc, I think you're going to need a demonstrable pattern of ring success.

[PangQuan]

So it seems we are stuck in a paradox here.

How to get an MMAer to prove the "new element" will work in the ring, when an MMAer will only pick it up once its proven to work. Cant prove it works till you pick it up, cant pick it up till its proven to work.

It seems by that standard of adopting new technique into training, no one will ever try anything new. So what we are gettin at here is that a new wave of training must be adopted to prove new elements can be added. Such as the MMA was a new wave of training. This new wave will have to have a pioneer? Basically what we are getting at is that someone has to go into the cage with a completely differnt set up and kick everybodys @ss?

[Merryprankster]

"An" MMA'er might pick up a thing or two or even a big chunk of something and get it to work - and trust me, that will generate interest if there is much success associated with that fighter.

But to get "MMA" to pick up a significant chunk of something, or a couple of moves, is unlikely unless it has a consistent track record of success.

Again, the fastest way to spread something, like a technique, footwork, style, STD's, etc, in MMA is success.

[red5angel]

I don't think it's a paradox. These MMA'ers everyone keeps referring too go with what they know for sure works. Sometimes they dabble - one guy apparently uses some capoeira stuff in his cage fighting - and occasionally, like with BJJ, something really hits the mark and it catches on. It evolves it's just not an overnight thing.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, what red said. That's the concept I was trying to get across.

[fa_jing]

Yes, I meant to integrate it into a particular MMA style, as in the style practiced by a particular fighter or perhaps school. Not to integrate it into the "MMA style base" practiced by most which would stay BJJ, MT, boxing/wrestling/fencing footwork etc.

I think this has been done with Shuai Chiao. Ba Gua being known for integration, could be next. (for a small subset of MMA practicioners)

Also, the sport and the fighters in general haven't reached the limit in terms of developing themselves within the basis that is already accepted. In contrast, boxing has been around longer as a sport and is more mature. So maybe there's no need to really look elsewhere. As the playing field improves, though, we might expect that new trends would emerge. Waiting for something to be proven first is a bit flawed as it pretty much guarantees that you won't be the one doing the proving.

[fa_jing]

Red, there's some WC out there said to be influenced by Ba Gua. Don't remember where or when but I remember reading about it.

[Merryprankster]

Waiting for something to be proven first is a bit flawed as it pretty much guarantees that you won't be the one doing the proving.

True, and fighters are always looking for an edge. Training is the proving ground for that.

Still, for widespread use/acceptance you gotta have bona fide results.

[Waidan]

Hmm. Seems like I chose my words poorly. I'm probably just digging a deeper hole, but let me share some thoughts.

If we're waiting for a pure bagua fighter to break into the UFC and show everyone what's-what, we may be waiting quite a while. Fighters who are driven to compete and have the physical tools to do so at a high level aren't likely to seek out a bagua group and spend the time necessary to evaluate the style. They're more likely to follow the footsteps of the leaders in their profession...why reinvent the wheel, right?

Now, MMA folks are not a stupid bunch. They're also not likely to pass up on something that's going to enhance their stand-up abilities. The sport has evolved to the point where getting a training edge is difficult to do...increased media coverage and popularity makes it so. However, in order for mainstream, competative MMA guys to adopt bagua footwork they have to:

A) See it work.

B) look past all the "worthless" forms, "pointless" chi gung, and "outdated" training methods. The footwork has to be pulled out of context and understood to the degree necessary to see how and why it should be added to their arsenal. Sort of like taking a physical skill found in a completely unrelated field (surfing, short-order cook, whatever) and seeing how it could be applied in the ring.

Now, straight up, A is "our" fault (meaning bagua practitioners). Bagua has certainly gained in popularity recently, but we're not out there representing the style like perhaps we should be. What's more, too many guys are content to present bagua as a "soft" taiji clone and not as a fighting style.

B) Is a matter of predjudice. Sometimes you have to look outside the box if you want to find answers, but that can be difficult to do when your peer group has something of a tendancy to frown on traditional styles.

Anyway, I think enough evidence exists to suggest that bagua's footwork can be integrated into other styles, and I believe it will be absorbed into mainstream MMA in due time.

Sorry if anything I wrote feels like a dig...it's not meant as such. I think I should mention that I got interested in muy thai and ground fighting years after starting bagua, and I learned waaaaay more from that camp than I ever thought I would. I don't think bagua is any more technical or advanced than what the bjj or mt crowd does, but I do think the two groups have a lot to show each other.

[Merryprankster]

Nah, not digging a hole. I don't have a problem with this, just that we really can't expect MMAers to adopt something like that just by observation.

The peer group for what it's worth doesn't frown on traditional styles - as long as you can make it work.

That's our litmus test. But by your own admission, it seems we may have to wait awhile.

[fa_jing]

Of course TMA has "bad credit" with the MMA community, and well-deserved. But, things will continue to evolve. For instance, striking in general had some bad credit at first, but now the game includes alot more striking skills than before.

[Waidan]

Roger that.

Really, when I'm talking about predjudices existing in that group, I make this statement based on my personal interactions with MMA guys. My experience only adds up to two schools (plus a gajillion interweb supermen)...hardly a fair sample to judge a large (and growing) group by. But from what I've seen first hand, the anti-CMA attitude exists. And for that matter, I've seen plenty examples of anti-MMA attitude in traditional circles. Perhaps as people continue to branch out and explore both sides these barriers will break down and both groups will evolve. I better stop typing before this turns into a poorly wrought MLK speech.

[Stranger]

"Stranger,

I made essentially that point - "




My bad. :D

[Merryprankster]

Not at all stranger, it's just that I respect your opinion and don't want to be seen as needlessly antagonistic to your POV.

[SevenStar]

Waiting for something to be proven first is a bit flawed as it pretty much guarantees that you won't be the one doing the proving.

no quarrel there. but nobody who wants to compete seriously is going to take that time, because they, as has been stated, are going to train in what they know has already had a proven success record - they will not try to reinvent the wheel. The way for it to get recognized is for someone who already trains in a particular style to compete and be successful. People will say "Hmmm, he may be on to something," and then they will look into it.

[fa_jing]

So here we really see where the MMA approach diverges from the JKD approach. JKD assumes that alot of styles including traditional and sport styles will have something to offer, and that it is necessary to experience a number of these before selecting what it useful. It assumes that some things will be useful and some not in nearly every style.

MMA is more like "keeping up with the Joneses"

[fa_jing]

which of course has validity, if Mr. Jones is the current UFC champ.

[fa_jing]

this is a bit off the original topic but I think some TMA fighting techniques will make their way into UFC-style fighting. Let me put it this way....if a spinning backfist can be effective in the UFC, then a downward whipping backfist can be effective. It is just going to take someone who can pull it off.

[fa_jing]

variation of many TMA techniques currently not favored in MMA exist in Indonesian/SE asian "traditional sport fighting" styles, it should be noted.

[MonkeySlap Too]

You need to consider context. I've spent plenty of time with the MMA world. Realy, nice, dedicated guys all around. I've never had a problem proving myself, and have shared openly with them. Spent hours once teaching a world class Vale Tudo guy how to better control his clinch. Did I tell him 'hey now your doing my style?' No. Heck, what I showed I've seen elsewhere too.

Does this mean they go around saying 'hey, I learned some Shuai Chiao' - no. They learned some fighting skills.

It's ALL just fighting skills. This is where it's heading, and where it should be.

Prove it. Do it.

Many CMA need to lose:
Insular/secretive attitude
Unwillingness to use sparring games
Unwillingness to fight outside of group
Failed training methods - often, but not always, the material is good but the training methodology stands to be significantly improved.

Nuff said.

[Knifefighter]

So many masters have changed the footwork of their style when exposed to the footwork of Ba Gua. We have 8-step Tai Chi, 8-step Mantis, even 8-step Wing Chun. Do you all see any barriers to incorporating Ba Gua footwork into a standard MMA style based on boxing, wrestling and Muy Thai? :eek: :D
Most MMA guys who have been exposed to 8 step footwork feel that the footwork from boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai is better suited to the MMA arena.

[Knifefighter]

So here we really see where the MMA approach diverges from the JKD approach. JKD assumes that alot of styles including
traditional and sport styles will have something to offer, and that it is necessary to experience a number of these before
selecting what it useful. It assumes that some things will be useful and some not in nearly every style.

JKD has actually diverged into three major groups- those who have stuck to the original Bruce Lee stuff and not ventured too far from there; those who have explored the more esoteric arts such as Silat; and those who have followed the MMA philosophy of proving that it works and incorporating it into their fighting methodology.



MMA is more like "keeping up with the Joneses"

MMA is more along the lines of "put up or shut up."

[Yaksha]

I don't come here too often, so I'm sorry, but I will not most likely be able to read the replies, but there is something I just HAD to say.

I fought two BJJ/Muy Thai guys with my wing chun. I scored 90% or more of the hits and made sure to make him feel them through his protective gear by knocking him back with every strike. That is with big ol' bulbous boxing gloves a size too big for me having never worn any kind of protective equipment besides a cup and a mouthpiece. To this day they still think they won because one of them scored a single good strike to my ribs. I made sure to always get the first hit and I made sure I was able to controll their movement, backing them into walls on numerous occasions. None of their hits were very good except one kick to my ribs and one punch to the face during the course of fifteen minutes. They won't admit that they got their ass beat by a WC guy or even that I won. They are not able to refute any of what I said here, nor are they willing to accept a rematch or even meet me in person except in their own training hall with the support of all their friends.

I think this a typical attitude of the MMA'ers Their most highly developed skill seems to be talk and ballyhoo without anything to back it up. Maybe thats why martial artists from other systems refuse to fight them because they're dishonest in their dealings.

In my opinion, except for the very few who actually make a career out of fighting, nearly all MMA'ers are masters in the art of talking and nothing else. Their entire curriculum is centered around the concept of jive talk. Thats why they argue so well on the internet.

[Merryprankster]

I don't come here too often, so I'm sorry, but I will not most likely be able to read the replies, but there is something I just HAD to say.

I fought two wing chun guys with my BJJ/Muay Thai. These guys thought they won because they hit me a bunch with "patty cake" strikes and were "pushing" their shots. For some reason, they thought that meant they were "knocking me back." Yeah, they scored a lot of hits, but this isn't point sparring. I never really felt the impact. What was most amazing is that these guys had never worn or seen any kind of protective equipment besides a cup and a mouthpiece, and they claimed to spar a lot. Riiiiiight.

To this day they still think they won because of all the pushing strikes and tap-tap games. Yeah, they got the first hits and were pushing me around, but none of their punches had any snap or impact. Of course, we were doing this without grappling, which is my strength, and changes the game completely.

To this day, they won't admit that they got their ass beat by a BJJ/MT guy or even that I won. They are not able to refute any of what I said here. They keep asking for a rematch, but I thought the outcome was pretty clear, and there's no point.

I think this a typical attitude of the TCMA guys. Their most highly developed skill seems to be talk and ballyhoo without anything to back it up. Maybe thats why martial artists from other systems refuse to fight them because they're dishonest in their dealings.

In my opinion, except for the very few who actually make a career out of fighting, nearly all TCMAers are masters in the art of talking and nothing else. Their entire curriculum is centered around the concept of jive talk. Thats why they argue so well on the internet.

Point? Perspective matters. For what it's worth I don't really care what happened. Let me give you an example. Two masters agree to spar. One is a Judo master, the other is a BJJ master. Without really understanding each other's perspective, they go at it. Over the course of their session, the Judo guy throws the BJJ guy for Ippon 10 times, the BJJ guy gets a tap from the Judo guy 10 times.

After they are done, each writes an internet story that sounds a lot like the one you did. Why? Because to the Judoka, dropping somebody on their head 10 times is winning. To the BJJ guy, tapping somebody 10 times is winning.

The only thing that mitigates perspective is a ring with referrees and an audience -or a videotape - that you can post everytime somebody claims something that ain't true. :)

However, *******s are *******s. You get tai-chi hippy wierd snotty *******s, and we get thugs. I'm not sure which is worse.

[fa_jing]

Most MMA guys who have been exposed to 8 step footwork feel that the footwork from boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai is better suited to the MMA arena.

I guess I'd like to hear why. Personally, I don't know what the heck 8-step footwork is. I just know that it's some cool footwork that people have liked enough to alter the style they practice to include it. I'm curious to know, among MMA guys with exposure to this, what was their reason for preferring their existing footwork....could it be

1. technical deficiency or weakness of the footwork when analyzed objectively along with modern fighting theory.

2. too different from what they've practiced before. hard to pick up.

3. hard to integrate into their fighting repetoire because of physical incompatibility with their "moves"

4. "unproven in the ring, so I won't even bother trying or researching it"

I'm sure it is the first 3 as often as the latter. I would like to hear individual fighters opinions on their particular experience, though.

Now, plenty of CMA styles were exposed to 8-step and didn't change their existing footwork one bit. So I'm not trying to imply that one would necessarily try to incorporate 8-step footwork. I'm just a bit surprised that NOBODY has either done so or is actively researching doing so and that most MMA people have the impression that it will NEVER be done. Or so it seems from the internet.

Bagua influenced Aikido too, and you know those people are teh real deadly.

[Royal Dragon]

Bagua - (8 step) is a Chinese Kung Fu style. The MMA crowd feels the Chinese arts are very deficient, and well below the arts they practice. Why would any of them bother to even look at it? It's all Crappy Kung Fu to them. They don't know the difference between Southern Mantis, Long Fist, Bagua or the Eight Peices of Silk Brocade for God's sake. To them, it's all Kung Fu, and it all sux.

Now, have a Muy Tai teacher start showing the footwork, but not say what it is, you may get somehwere.

[PangQuan]

Bagua - (8 step) is a Chinese Kung Fu style. The MMA crowd feels the Chinese arts are very deficient, and well below the arts they practice. Why would any of them bother to even look at it? It's all Crappy Kung Fu to them. They don't know the difference between Southern Mantis, Long Fist, Bagua or the Eight Peices of Silk Brocade for God's sake. To them, it's all Kung Fu, and it all sux.

Now, have a Muy Tai teacher start showing the footwork, but not say what it is, you may get somehwere.

I think you might be on to something here.

Its like getting grandpa to take his pills, only because they are crushed and mixed up in his favorite type of beans.

[fa_jing]

Well that's the flimsy version of a "MMA-er" argument. There are probably more solid versions of the argument that real professionals hold as opinions. I'd like to hear more. I think Knifefighter has spoken regards his Wing Chun experience in the past and how he felt it and the style itself is lacking. What I'd like to hear is more of the same, regarding more fighters and more styles, for each individual case.

[MasterKiller]

Bagua - (8 step) is a Chinese Kung Fu style. The MMA crowd feels the Chinese arts are very deficient, and well below the arts they practice. Why would any of them bother to even look at it? It's all Crappy Kung Fu to them. They don't know the difference between Southern Mantis, Long Fist, Bagua or the Eight Peices of Silk Brocade for God's sake. To them, it's all Kung Fu, and it all sux.

Now, have a Muy Tai teacher start showing the footwork, but not say what it is, you may get somehwere.

The majority of MMA nut-huggers you meet online are not indicative of the guys I'm meeting and training with. The MMA crowd I'm working out with likes San Shou. They like Cung Le. They like Kung Fu that works. They like ANYTHING that works.

They are basically results-oriented. If you get results, they are interested. If you talk a big game and then get pounded, you are dismissed.

[Merryprankster]

Masterkillers post says it all.

*runs off to find MMA nut to hug*

[SevenStar]

The majority of MMA nut-huggers you meet online are not indicative of the guys I'm meeting and training with. The MMA crowd I'm working out with likes San Shou. They like Cung Le. They like Kung Fu that works. They like ANYTHING that works.

They are basically results-oriented. If you get results, they are interested. If you talk a big game and then get pounded, you are dismissed.


bingo.

..........

[Vash]

I think the elephant in the corner is ****ed because no one's talking about him.
Sad elephant.

Anyway.

The "sides" keep repeating the same thing . . . "proving." The question then becomes, "against whom?"

I'm guessing if someone, either "traditional" or "modern," uses something against someone else of equal or greater training time, then it's "effective." Am I right?

That's not a rhetorical question. Lord knows I know half of what I think and twice what I care too.

[fa_jing]

Well, at a more fundamental level I'll say that what you've personally experienced trumps whatever another may tell you or what you've seen on TV. Even after basic training, I've had cans of TMA whup-ass opened on me and cans of Western MA whup-ass opened on me - even from the same person. So personally, I respect both. There are many ways to kick fa-jing's ass. :eek:

[Knifefighter]

The footwork from boxing, Muay Thai, and wrestling has been proven in hundreds of thousands of documented bouts. This footwork has hundreds of years of evolution to make it more effective. The footwork between the three share many more similarities than differences which means that each type of footwork needs relatively little modification to be used in a variety of circumstances.

8-step footwork, on the other hand, has very little, if any proven evidence of it being as, or more, effective than the footwork used by most MMA fighters.

Why would one want to spend time investing in an unproven technology when there is already an extremely viable one already in existence? Especially when you’ve already got to learn the myriad of elements of punching, kicking, defending, clinching, takedowns, and groundwork.

As far as specific weaknesses with 8-step, if I remember correctly, there are some cross steps in there somewhere. Any proficient MMA fighter will tell you, he never would incorporate footwork that encourages that type of thing.

[fa_jing]

"Why would one want to spend time investing in an unproven technology when there is already an extremely viable one already in existence? Especially when you’ve already got to learn the myriad of elements of punching, kicking, defending, clinching, takedowns, and groundwork."

I agree that just the basics (should be fundamentals, since there isn't much that is basic about the "basics") are difficult enough to practically preclude anything else. But if you are say, a near-top guy already, I would think you would want to expand your repetoire, to find something to give you an advantage. Then again, even the top guys have probably already identified their weaknesses and feel that there is no need to step outside their framework to address these. But on the other hand, it doesn't take long for an experienced fighter to pick up a new move.

Can it be that knife-hands, top-wrists, and palms have no place in fighting? If all we had was MMA to go by we might say so.

"As far as specific weaknesses with 8-step, if I remember correctly, there are some cross steps in there somewhere. Any proficient MMA fighter will tell you, he never would incorporate footwork that encourages that type of thing."

The same criticism has been leveled against 8-step by CMA styles that don't use cross steps. But, both Judo and Shuai Chiao have cross steps. Both Judo and Shuai Chiao have been used successfully in MMA (well especially Judo). Was the cross step used successfully in the comp? Probably not. But it doesn't invalidate the style just because some aspects are filtered out.

[Merryprankster]

Judo and SC don't have cross steps. They have back steps. Big difference.

[fa_jing]

Which is....?

[PangQuan]

Why would one want to spend time investing in an unproven technology when there is already an extremely viable one already in existence?

Exactly, like why would Henry Ford want to try and put everything on the line to build a automobile when we have millions of proven reasons why horses work just fine. Oh but wait, he went out there, did it. Took lots of time and lots of effort. Was ridiculed and denounced, then after many years he developed what we see on every single corner in most of the colonized world.

Why go out on a limb? Because you may just get a wonderful surprize at the end of the journey.

[fa_jing]

"Why go out on a limb? Because you may just get a wonderful surprize at the end of the journey."

There's a surprise at the end of the way you spelled the word "surprise."

J/K, you made a good point. Which kinda lends itself to my theory, which is that as professionals whose livelihoods are on the line, fighters can't go out on a limb for a "just might" This is one-against-one business and it works differently than investing, or searching for new markets.

[PangQuan]

Dam my bad spilleng i suk or sumthin.

I see what you mean. But we will never know till someone does it. How about Columbus, Amerigo Despuchi (prob spelled that wrong too) Genghis Khan, The Mayflower?

These people had so much more on the line than a fight. They often had severe persecution, death, famine, war, etc. on the line.

One day someone will introduce a new method and everyone will be SURPRISED :p that it works. Then they will all adopt it. Its the pioneers that move the evolution of any thing. I just think we have less pioneers now. We have so many people compared to the rest of history, everyone gets this warm and fuzzy feeling of security in doing the same thing over and over.

Myself included. I do study traditional arts. But I also think about it. I realize that I need to make modifications to adapt it to my body and this time period.

I see what everyone means by taking the risk. And it is completely true. But one day someone will and they will make everyone smack their foreheads and say DOH!! why didnt i think of that.

[Merryprankster]

The backstep is the fastest, most efficient way to turn your hips into an opponent and off balance them. It is an attack. It is NOT used as a way to "move around the opponent."

Further, once you have done it, your feet "uncross" themselves, because you are going from facing one direction to facing the other way.

Cross-stepping as a way to move around the opponent gets you foot-swept, hit, or shot on, or (fill in blank).

[fa_jing]

OK, I learned this backstep at a Shuai-Chiao seminar. However, I don't know BaGua as I said before. I thought that the running behind the opponent thing was a myth? I know that BaGua can take you behind the opponent but I thought it was more of a linear thing. There is linear BaGua. I've also heard that you can't get behind the opponent without simultaneously engaging the hands. Are you sure it's different from a backstep?

Sucks to be two people arguing over something neither knows much about.... :D :D :D

[Merryprankster]

I speak with no authority, but I seem to recall that the circle walking had crossing feet in it.


When I say "move around the opponent," I don't mean get behind them, I just mean, like when two boxers are moving around. Crossing feet is bad, mmmmm'kay? :D

[Christopher M]

-- None of the "8-step" styles I've seen exhibited bagua footwork as it would be recognized by a bagua stylist, nor trained bagua style footwork exercises to develop such an attribute. It's possible they saw some bagua and decided to change their footwork based on what they saw, but that's not the same as using bagua footwork.

-- The common prescription against crossing your feet is as important in bagua as in any other style. One of the reasons beginning bagua students are asked to inscribe a circle to practice footwork on is to learn to avoid crossing their feet -- each foot stays on the appropriate side of the line. Circular footwork can be used for angular advances and retreats, hip switches, and stealing and covering steps -- but not crossing your legs in front of the opponent. Experience is a quick teacher concerning the results of such a tactic.

[Merryprankster]

Chris,

Glad somebody with some knowledge posted. Clearly the video was deceptive - it's hard to gather depth (vision wise) relationships from that stuff sometimes.

[Christopher M]

Or he could have been doing it poorly.

Or I could not know what I'm talking about.

All possibilities!

But I think that if people are doing their paired training drills, it will become evident that crossing their legs is a bad idea. There's an example of a paired drill here (http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/ssdemo.wmv) with a cross-step at ~ 0:59 (the little step made with the left foot by the guy closest to the camera).

[red5angel]

I think thier Qi has propelled them into the negative plane!

[Merryprankster]

There's an example of a paired drill here with a cross-step at ~ 0:59 (the little step made with the left foot by the guy closest to the camera).

Yup, I saw it.

Did you notice that his upper body and lower body were out of alignment for that split second? His hips were closed off to the left while his shoulders were square to the opponent.

Hellllllooooooooooo floor! Time to count the ceiling tiles.

[Christopher M]

In the context of the situation he's in, I don't think I agree with you. He (black shirt) is taking that step while 45o to the left (closer to the camera) of the other guy (grey shirt). Grey shirt's center is pointed forward (perpendicular to the angle made by the camera's viewpoint; pointing directly left across the frame) -- towards where black shirt would be if they were squared off; but actually to black shirt's left, because black shirt has that angle. The cross-step looks twisted because of the angle of the foot (called 'bai bu', 'swing step', or 'toe-out'). My interpretation of what is going on is that that angle was taken in order to get an angle of force on grey shirt, rather than merely an angle of position. That is, while black shirt is out of the line of grey shirt's force before the step, he doesn't exactly have grey shirt in his line of force -- and that's what he wants. The angle of that toe-out transects grey shirt's angle of force by 45o -- if black shirt entered at that angle, he would be going right through grey shirt's center at it's weakest point and could toss him around easily because of that. You'll notice that grey shirt's response to that is to turn his hips towards the camera so his center is pointing towards black shirt -- negating this positional tactic and threatening black shirt. Had he not done that, he would have gone sailing.

Unless you're talking about the bigger cross black shirt does right after that, at 1:01 (again with the left foot, with his back to the camera). In that case, I'd agree that grey shirt should have had him -- and I think he was aware of it because he seems to hurry himself there. I think that was a clumsy step out of recovering from the aforementioned tactic.

In any case, people are going to make mistakes like that, and that's one of the reasons these drills are so valuable -- to teach us not to.

[red5angel]

MP, are you absolutely positive that that position is that dangerous, or that someone who trains it might not know the proper responses? I ask knowing most people don't address grappling in their traditional training but on the off chance that these guys know somehting you don't?