Internal Aspects of Wing Chun

[illusionfist]

I actually started this topic in the chat room and i saw the response that it got, so i would like to reveal it to the rest of the board. What are your thoughts on Siu Lim Tao's internal properties? I have met a variety of sifu that teach wing chun and all of them have said that Siu Lim Tao has many internal, or qigong, aspects to it. The only problem is that most people are never trained to harness, much less visualize these aspects of the form.

Ok wing chunners, have at it

Peace out /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sam]

Siu Lin Tao as taught by Fut Sao is Golden Bell Nei-Gung. It is condusive to Chi Body and Chi Transferance. There is also a Fut Sao and NG Hei-Gung which deals with more circulation and chi enhancement. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)

[FUJIYakumo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by illusionfist:
[B]I have met a variety of sifu that teach wing chun and all of them have said that Siu Lim Tao has many internal, or qigong, aspects to it.[/quote]

some say the yee gee kim yueng ma is conductive to the flow of chi around the body.

some say otherwise.

most wck ppl say that it is internal, pretty much all neija ppl argue otherwise till they are blue in the face.

(witness mike on rec.ma on the subject).

would you care to list what you think is the wck sui nim tao internal properties?

also too often ppl think doing SNT _slow_ is cognitive to internal principals and say how XYZ sifu did SNT and it took N hours long!
length of time imo is irrelevant if it has the principals...

but that is the question ne? ^_^

define your version of internal and what you think SNT's principals are.
IMO, i think that SNT's job is to train the basic hand movements and positioning above all, and if it is 'internal' it is just a byproduct.

Are your SNT's internal principals present in all forms of the SNT in all the branches that have SNT?




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[illusionfist]

Well, like i said in my post, most people don't teach the internal aspects of the form. When i first started kung fu when i was a kid (around 12) i used to take lessons from a friend of mine's dad. He was skilled in wing chun and a real obscure version of yang style tai chi. At that age i couldn't respect, nor understand, the internal aspects of the form. I later moved on and went to another style of kung fu (mizong lohan).

Now that i am training in hung gar and i have been exposed to it's internal aspects, some of the internal postures that are in hung gar are also found within Siu Lim Tao. Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is one of these stances. Also many of the arm postures are building your internal "frame", which build the space between the arms and your dantien. This space is needed in order to use expulsion and warding techniques.

But the postures are nothing without the intent, and the intent is what leads the chi. The intent is the most crucial factor in making Siu Lim Tao work for internal purposes.

As for all lineages having it, well that would be impossible for me to answer.

As for neijia people arguing about the internal aspects of the form, well as you said, it can be argued. A close friend of mine is learning wing chun, and his mother system is Chen Style Tai Chi. He is always commenting on the internal benefits of Siu Lim Tao. So.....

Have any of you experienced the internal benefits of the form??

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hmmmmm...

In my lineage of wing chun, we don't do SLT (or any of the forms) at all, so if that's where the internal aspects of wing chun live, then I ain't gettin' 'em!

Seriously, though...what's our working definition of "internal?" I mean, the art is "soft" and flowing...but it's also very practical, both in its design and in its culture (like Yip Man telling his students to test their abilities by getting in fights). What I'm trying to say is that WC strikes me as a total utilitarian, no-nonsense art, which runs a little counter to the esoteric and spiritual aspects of internal arts, doesn't it?

------------------
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Peace.
Reverend Tim

[illusionfist]

Internal in my view is just chi cultivation. But this all depends on point of view. Esoteric ideas and what not can be also added to the already existent uses and cultivation methods of chi. As Jimlin said, they probably were not consciously thinking about the internal when they were developing the form. Just proper body mechanics are conducive to chi generation, and obviously Wing Chun has proper body mechanics because that is what the system is based from.

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sihing73]

I would like to submit for your consideration an article by Sifu Robert Chu.
The originals can be found at:
www.wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com)
under columns. Several are worth reading.

Peace,

Dave

In any event here is the article:
Wandering Knight
Defining Internal

by Robert Chu

What most people see in Wing Chun Kuen is the fixed form that may belong to the beginner or intermediate. Even if a person has learned all the forms in Wing Chun Kuen, they may not yet have reached an advanced level. Wing Chun can be learned quickly, but not necessarily deeply if a person does not understand how to use the body. Most have seen a rigid interpretation of the first form in Wing Chun Kuen called "Siu Nim Tao" (Translation: "Focus on the small at the foundation"). A person at the beginner or intermediate stage sits in the basic stance of the system and is rigidly "locked". At advanced levels, the stance becomes dynamic and engages the body in rising and sinking, absorbing and pushing forward - not mechanical, but based on being able to fa jing in all points of contact with an opponent. Because the movement is very small, it appears that one is "locked", but that is not the case at advanced levels.

By the second form called "Chum Kiu" (Translation: "Seeking to Bridge an opponent's center of gravity" or alternatively written as "Sinking the structure of the opponent") the student is engaged in many step shifts and body changes. At beginner and intermediate levels, the practitioner may be rigidly locked in switching from step to step (not "stance", as often translated poorly in English - performing a choreography that is similar to an alive advanced level, but it is still mechanical or technical. At the high levels, the practitioner embodies the training of sensing (ting jing) and the steps come into the reaction of an opponent's force acting upon you - one does not take a pose or a stance, but adjusts as the situation requires to maintain rooting - like riding a surfboard or having to stand on a moving subway car. If a person is trying to uproot you from the right, the position is adjusted and properly braced to neutralize that force acting upon you and align a vector so that your opponent's force helplessly is directed to the ground. A slight change of this, and the opponent can be uprooted and sent flying with a minimum of strength because you can align multiple simultaneous vectors of force in striking your opponent or simply uproot them, or absorb the force into nothingness. I've done my best to try to find the correct words in describing advanced level Wing Chun Kuen here. It is very much alive, so that when people speak of aligning vector forces or using ground strength, this is present in advanced level Wing Chun Kuen as well, and should have been taught in the beginning level of Wing Chun Kuen. Many people simply do not know how to use the entire body. Just as there are a lot of hippie Tai Chi'ers doing choreography based on Tai Ji Quan the martial art, there are a lot of Wing Chun Kuen practitioners that sadly only know the external choreography and basic movements, yet who don't know a **** thing beyond the beginner and intermediate levels, despite learning all the forms, exercises, drills, wooden man post, and weaponry associated with the system. The Wing Chun Kuen I describe here is what I have seen when I have crossed hands with a few experts and is present throughout the many different lineages and subsystems of Wing Chun Kuen like Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen, Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, Gu Lao Wing Chun, Jee Shim Wing Chun, and a few others. I am certainly not unique, but perhaps my articulation in English may be superior to most who practice it because the majority of people who can explain this speak poor or little English.

When I issue force, it is different than Tai Ji or the other so-called Neijia arts because I use the Wing Chun Kuen body mechanics to achieve this core strength, not Tai Ji body mechanics. These are body movements that come from the system after so long practicing. Many people play sticking hands in Wing Chun Kuen, which serves to develop ting jing (listening to energy), but most only do a superficial rolling akin to the limp wristed see-saw push hands in "hippie Tai Chi". Real sticking hands seeks to immediately capture an opponent's center of gravity and displace the opponent immediately or absorb their force, guide it, use it against the opponent, borrow the force, inquire and test, uproot, sink and destroy, absorb, bounce out, steal, leak, dissect and isolate an opponent's skill. It is not the slap and push low level art that you typically see in tournaments, just like the crappy push hands you see in many tournaments today.

In this short essay, I hope you can "see" that Wing Chun Kuen can develop a high level body control and usage, and not simply execute force from the shoulders and a locked stance. I hope I have shared some insight, and diffferentiated the art I practice with what is commonly practiced and thought of as Wing Chun.




[This message has been edited by Sihing73 (edited 05-20-2000).]

[T.D.O]

:D old thread (21yo) but I liked the article

[YinOrYan]

:D old thread (21yo) but I liked the article

There was a good article on this in the Winter 1996 issue by Marian K. Castinado with Grandmaster William Cheung. Kung Fu Magazine does not have the text online, so if you can't find out there, I could scan it:

https://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=514

[T.D.O]

There was a good article on this in the Winter 1996 issue by Marian K. Castinado with Grandmaster William Cheung. Kung Fu Magazine does not have the text online, so if you can't find out there, I could scan it:

https://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=514

Definitely sounds interesting, cant say ive ever read anything of William cheung's

[YinOrYan]

Definitely sounds interesting, cant say ive ever read anything of William cheung's

Okay, here's a quick scan of it:

[T.D.O]

lol reads true

Though, why wait till half way through the curriculum to teach it, or is it taught this way but mearly explained at this point?

[YinOrYan]

lol reads true

Though, why wait till half way through the curriculum to teach it, or is it taught this way but mearly explained at this point?

Because its powerful and dangerous, a student has to be mature enough to handle it correctly. I probably started too early and developed for a time what Western doctors diagnose as parasomnia (breaking out of the sleep barrier). Until I researched what was really going on, they just prescribed some drug that makes your body feel likes its rubber. Back then, before the internet, it was not easy research obscure things like that. So I had to go up and down stairs at the UCLA medical library chasing down citations in medical journals. Once in while if I'm not careful it can still be dangerous, like yesterday I geared up for a kilocalorie workout but the instructor canceled so I put the energy into a yoga class, then during the shavasana (relaxation at the end) I got a couple huge jolts. At least the shocks woke me up, so no one would call 911 for what probably looked like seizures, haha

[T.D.O]

doesn't sound like fun, what kind of training leads to this? seems a lot different from what I I regard as internal training, anything you can share about your routine?

[T.D.O]

Had to look up kilocalorie workout, still none the wiser lol

[YinOrYan]

Had to look up kilocalorie workout, still none the wiser lol

Kilocalorie is usually about an hour straight of hard boxing for a male. The more obscure "internal training" is considered secretive because it can cause strokes or nerve damage, so the student has to be known to have the discipline. Something like caffine, or even certain levels of sodium or sugars could be dangerous. Ironically, if everybody is going out for Chinese food, the student has got to be able to say No Thanks...

[T.D.O]

Kilocalorie is usually about an hour straight of hard boxing for a male. The more obscure "internal training" is considered secretive because it can cause strokes or nerve damage, so the student has to be known to have the discipline. Something like caffine, or even certain levels of sodium or sugars could be dangerous. Ironically, if everybody is going out for Chinese food, the student has got to be able to say No Thanks...

thanks

would you say the internal stuff is worth the danger?

[YinOrYan]

thanks

would you say the internal stuff is worth the danger?

Yeah, I'm in better shape than I ever was when I was young, but the trade-offs are different for everyone. Even for dietary restrictions, if you are married then your spouse has to all in. And if you all are up for even bigger trade-offs read the following:

[T.D.O]

Yeah, I'm in better shape than I ever was when I was young, but the trade-offs are different for everyone. Even for dietary restrictions, if you are married then your spouse has to all in. And if you all are up for even bigger trade-offs read the following:

It was hard to read, but got there in the end :D

I read a book about immortality, can't remember the name at the moment, but it was along the same lines as above.

Ive read a few things on internal elixir in the past, is your training the circulation of energy round the du mai and ren mai meridians and the reversing of it?

[YinOrYan]

Ive read a few things on internal elixir in the past, is your training the circulation of energy round the du mai and ren mai meridians and the reversing of it?

Oh no, I don't mess with that. Pretty much the only reversing I do is reverse breathing, which is not as dangerous.

So, since I now have the captive-audience of a Wing Chun expert, would you be so kind to let me know what you think of the following YouTube channel? I've been wondering about this for over a year. Are they any good? Do you recognize whose style they are derived from? Those Wing Chun Bots seem to be coming from somewhere North of London, but David, the young Nigerian who is posting them cannot tell me much:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6MH_GhCYqAaMpmF8wj012A

[T.D.O]

Oh no, I don't mess with that. Pretty much the only reversing I do is reverse breathing, which is not as dangerous.

So, since I now have the captive-audience of a Wing Chun expert, would you be so kind to let me know what you think of the following YouTube channel? I've been wondering about this for over a year. Are they any good? Do you recognize whose style they are derived from? Those Wing Chun Bots seem to be coming from somewhere North of London, but David, the young Nigerian who is posting them cannot tell me much:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6MH_GhCYqAaMpmF8wj012A

Ha Ha, Don't where you get the "expert" from, I only know what I know.

Not sure, what family it's from, but from the 2 videos I watched and the description on one of them, it's different from what I do/know... it's hard to say if it's any good, a few things that I wouldn't do in there, but since it looks like it's just to get a complete beginner familiar with a technique, it's ok I guess... but only if you are completely uneducated in wing chun, and never plan on going to learn would it be useful to watch...

Hope that was helpful in some way lol:D

[YinOrYan]

Ha Ha, Don't where you get the "expert" from, I only know what I know.

Not sure, what family it's from, but from the 2 videos I watched and the description on one of them, it's different from what I do/know... it's hard to say if it's any good, a few things that I wouldn't do in there, but since it looks like it's just to get a complete beginner familiar with a technique, it's ok I guess... but only if you are completely uneducated in wing chun, and never plan on going to learn would it be useful to watch...

Hope that was helpful in some way lol:D

Thanks, that was helpful and a very diplomatic way of putting it. Looks like its probably students of that Master Wong with 2.77M subscribers on YouTube. Never have seen his first name, even on his book, that is, unless its Master. I'm amazed how he has so many followers when there's so many guys called Master Wong out there...

[T.D.O]

Never have seen his first name, even on his book, that is, unless its Master.

HaHa :)
That made me laugh.

[No_Know]

246.8 lbs days ago


My comprehension, Wing Chun pivots and leans into a block. Evasion and deflection instead of blocks and pressure the opponent with force, this might be called Soft. This is why some Crane styles might be thought of as internal, Also Snake styles [Note in five Animals of Shao-Lin, where each represents an aspect of the human--Bones (ligaments?, tendons), Power, Spirit, Breath, Sperm/Libido (I don't write'em). I might have read Snake characteristic to be Breath (which is associated with Internal). With Kung-Fu dumbed-down to Soft and Hard and some Soft styles or Soft styles or styles with enough focus on Soft...that style might be counted by some as Internal.-Ernie Moore Jr.

I'm considering that one cannot mimic the moves of Wing Chun without moving the center and reducing the use of Strength and still be actually doing Wing Chun--these plus how you blend into attack from defense might require or :-) inspire breathing technique. I can see Wing Chun in a bridge being Snake. To connect-as a Crane.-Ernie More Jr.


I No_Know

[YinOrYan]

I'm considering that one cannot mimic the moves of Wing Chun without moving the center and reducing the use of Strength and still be actually doing Wing Chun--these plus how you blend into attack from defense might require or :-) inspire breathing technique. I can see Wing Chun in a bridge being Snake. To connect-as a Crane.-Ernie More Jr.


What a tune-in, I just stumbled across The Complete Wing Chun book a few minutes ago for $5 in a used book store. Was skimming it and noticed that not only are the usual crane and snake attributed to influencing its development but also tiger, eagle-claw and mantis, but the only overlap I've noticed before is with snake...

[T.D.O]

What a tune-in, I just stumbled across The Complete Wing Chun book a few minutes ago for $5 in a used book store. Was skimming it and noticed that not only are the usual crane and snake attributed to influencing its development but also tiger, eagle-claw and mantis, but the only overlap I've noticed before is with snake...

Where do you see "tiger" in wing chun?:)

[YinOrYan]

Where do you see "tiger" in wing chun?:)

Pages 101 and 118, although the they could just as well be defenses against tiger. I have done tiger kung fu for about 40 years and have not seen overlap with Wing Chun, but can imagine that Wing Chun could use some way of dealing with tiger takedowns...

[T.D.O]

Pages 101 and 118, although the they could just as well be defenses against tiger. I have done tiger kung fu for about 40 years and have not seen overlap with Wing Chun, but can imagine that Wing Chun could use some way of dealing with tiger takedowns...

I don't own the book, but thanks anyway :D

[T.D.O]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zQovENExFng

Tiger takedowns like the above? lol

[YinOrYan]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zQovENExFng

Tiger takedowns like the above? lol

That's like shooting someone in the back! Sorry, don't have any videos of tiger takedowns in application. Some of them even gut the opponant with the tiger claws once they are on the ground.

On page 101 it says fook fu kuen (subdue tiger form) is part of the curriculum of Malaysian Wing Chun that was brought there in the 1930's by Yip Kin

On page 118 it mentions a set of techniques called big-taming-tiger.

The book would make a good xmas present for yourself. They have most the Wing Chun lineages traced all the way down to 1998 when the book was published. It would be nice to know where you fit all that...

[T.D.O]

That's like shooting someone in the back! Sorry, don't have any videos of tiger takedowns in application. Some of them even gut the opponant with the tiger claws once they are on the ground.

On page 101 it says fook fu kuen (subdue tiger form) is part of the curriculum of Malaysian Wing Chun that was brought there in the 1930's by Yip Kin

On page 118 it mentions a set of techniques called big-taming-tiger.

The book would make a good xmas present for yourself. They have most the Wing Chun lineages traced all the way down to 1998 when the book was published. It would be nice to know where you fit all that...

Thanks

Going to look that form up :)

I'll maybe look for the book, see what of money they're going for lol

[T.D.O]

Sorry, don't have any videos of tiger takedowns in application. Some of them even gut the opponant with the tiger claws once they are on the ground.

You need to sort that, it is year of the tiger after all :D

Can only find hung ga forms of the same name, and judging from them there's a lot of tiger in wing chun, certainly.

defo makes me realise I need to look at more Southern kung fu lol

[T.D.O]

I've read that Southern dragon was an influence in the development of wing chun, do you know anything about Southern dragon?

[YinOrYan]

I've read that Southern dragon was an influence in the development of wing chun, do you know anything about Southern dragon?

There are thousands of Southern Dragons. Do you know of any specific videos? The only dragon form I've seen anything remotely similar to Wing Chun type moves is in the salutation to one of Arc Yuen Wong's dragon forms where there's a sequence about 8 of them and I don't know why...

[T.D.O]

There are thousands of Southern Dragons. Do you know of any specific videos? The only dragon form I've seen anything remotely similar to Wing Chun type moves is in the salutation to one of Arc Yuen Wong's dragon forms where there's a sequence about 8 of them and I don't know why...

I'll keep looking but the videos ive seen don't really look much like any the of the wing chun (main land or other ) ive seen.

thanks, I'll see if I can find anything on arc Yuen wongs dragon forms

[T.D.O]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pIHFqycKk

is this it?:)

[YinOrYan]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R7pIHFqycKk

is this it?:)

No, unfortunately most of his forms out there are really watered-down, in large part because he only taught the complete forms to his top students, and various subsets of them to many many others. Every once in while I go for an extensive hunt on YouTube to see if anything good has turned up but rarely find anything but parts...

[T.D.O]

No, unfortunately most of his forms out there are really watered-down, in large part because he only taught the complete forms to his top students, and various subsets of them to many many others. Every once in while I go for an extensive hunt on YouTube to see if anything good has turned up but rarely find anything but parts...

is it from the same sifu though?

[YinOrYan]

is it from the same sifu though?

Yeah, almost any Kung Fu person in L.A. over 50 learned some parts of Arc Wong's forms...

[T.D.O]

Yeah, almost any Kung Fu person in L.A. over 50 learned some parts of Arc Wong's forms...

popular was he :)

[T.D.O]

on the subject of dragon in wing chun, from what I've read recently, I think it is the twisting and coiling of the body that's the dragon element in wing chun, rather than hand techniques...

[YinOrYan]

on the subject of dragon in wing chun, from what I've read recently, I think it is the twisting and coiling of the body that's the dragon element in wing chun, rather than hand techniques...

They must be talking more about snake-like dragon forms sort of like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZE8-M65ZT8

That twisting and coiling is more symmetric, whereas most dragons are usually more spiraling, which is very unlike Wing Chun. Next thing you know, you will be telling me there's some monkey style in Wing Chun, haha

[T.D.O]

They must be talking more about snake-like dragon forms sort of like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZE8-M65ZT8

different to wing chun, but I can't really see with the robe being so long

[T.D.O]

That twisting and coiling is more symmetric, whereas most dragons are usually more spiraling, which is very unlike Wing Chun. Next thing you know, you will be telling me there's some monkey style in Wing Chun, haha

I would say wing Chuns twisting was more like bagua twisting my self, that being more up right.

no, no monkey lol.. though I did see fook sau being referred to as monkey paw in a book, which didn't make sense till I seen a monkey punch a guy on the chin after redirecting his hand with a fook sau lol

[Timmo789]

Well, like i said in my post, most people don't teach the internal aspects of the form. When i first started kung fu when i was a kid (around 12) i used to take lessons from a friend of mine's dad. He was skilled in wing chun and a real obscure version of yang style tai chi. At that age i couldn't respect, nor understand, the internal aspects of the form. I later moved on and went to another style of kung fu (mizong lohan).

Now that i am training in hung gar and i have been exposed to it's internal aspects, some of the internal postures that are in hung gar are also found within Siu Lim Tao. Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is one of these stances. Also many of the arm postures are building your internal "frame", which build the space between the arms and your dantien. This space is needed in order to use expulsion and warding techniques.

But the postures are nothing without the intent, and the intent is what leads the chi. The intent is the most crucial factor in making Siu Lim Tao work for internal purposes.

As for all lineages having it, well that would be impossible for me to answer.

As for neijia people arguing about the internal aspects of the form, well as you said, it can be argued. A close friend of mine is learning wing chun, and his mother system is Chen Style Tai Chi. He is always commenting on the internal benefits of Siu Lim Tao. So.....

Have any of you experienced the internal benefits of the form??

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree with what you're saying here: "But the postures are nothing without the intent, and the intent is what leads the chi."
This is something I've struggled to understand in Wing Chun until I found an internal school which teaches Chu Shong Tin style Wing Chun. It's like a completely different system to my previous Wing Chun:
Here's a recent post I put up: https://leedsipmanwingchun.co.uk/internal-wing-chun/

[T.D.O]

I agree with what you're saying here: "But the postures are nothing without the intent, and the intent is what leads the chi."
This is something I've struggled to understand in Wing Chun until I found an internal school which teaches Chu Shong Tin style Wing Chun. It's like a completely different system to my previous Wing Chun:
Here's a recent post I put up: https://leedsipmanwingchun.co.uk/internal-wing-chun/

I like cst' skill, I just don't know if it's functional, I'm from the samuel kwok lineage, I'm sure sigung trained under him at some point ( he's trained under 7 sifus, 6 of them being student's of ip man's ) and can't say that I've seen much of the cst stuff other than to show off lol