Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane ?

[Firehawk4]

I here alot about that Wing Chun is supposed to come from Fukien White Crane , but maybe it is the otherway around and maybe Fukien White Crane comes from Wing Chun , maybe Wing Chun as we know it is the very first type of Fukien White Crane the ohters developed out of it .

[Hendrik]

I here alot about that Wing Chun is supposed to come from Fukien White Crane , but maybe it is the otherway around and maybe Fukien White Crane comes from Wing Chun , maybe Wing Chun as we know it is the very first type of Fukien White Crane the ohters developed out of it .



Sure why not ? if you can find Evident to proof it.




But,


How high to the top it can get beyond General Zhen Chen-kung in Anti-Qing if Ming Dynasty General Zhen is not the number one head man--- the MAN?


Too bad the Head of Anti-Qing, General Zhen Chen-Kung regard the Ancetors of White Crane from Fujian as one of the Major player.


As in Chiin San Dai organization, which General Zhen Chen-Kung started himself prior to Tien Tee Hui, which pray to the White Crane ancestors But not Dong Ch'an of Shao Lin who existed in the 1600's in thier martial art training hall.



The rest, upto today, needs Evidents to prove.

But, we do know clearly, today, General Zhen Chen-Kung, a Fujian native of Chuan Ciu, the highest leader or Chief commander of Anti-Qing be it in battle field or underground secret society consider White Crane of Fujian as A core player.



and there is no sign of other such as Wing Chun kuen in that Training hall of General Zhen's organization. So, it is petty clear isnt it?


I am sure I am baised toward letting the facts telling the truth.




But if you love his-story or writting books, or making movies. Sure, Why not. Those doesnt have to track realities.

[canglong]

Old chinese saying :- "Tian Sia Wu Gung Choo Shao Lin" - translated - "All martial arts under heaven and earth originates from Shao Lin". According to this you make a good point Firehawk.

[Wong]

Not all Chinese style are from Shao Lin

[canglong]

The Shaolin Temple was built in 495 A.D. and is located northwest of Dengfeng County on Song Shan. The Indian Monk Boddhidharma arrived in 527 and initiated the Chan (Zen) sect of Buddhism. Shaolin hence became the birthplace of the Chan Sect. At the beginning of the seventh century, 13 martial arts monks were rewarded by Tang Dynasty Emperor Li Shimin after they had saved him from danger . The Temple was then given the title: "the Number One Temple Under Heaven." Shaolin kung fu thus developed rapidly and its fame spread. The 30,000-square-meter temple is composed of seven rows of buildings, including the Hall of Heavenly King, the Dharma Pavilion, the Thousand-Buddha Hall, the White-Robe Bodhhisattva Hall, and the Hall of Ksitigarbba (Guardian of the Earth). Wong,
The history of Shaolin is pretty impressive to say the least.

[Wong]

Impressive yes. not what you say "all martial arts under heaven and earth originates from Shao Lin"

[canglong]

1. I posted a quote.
2. You did not disprove the quote.

[t_niehoff]

The Shaolin mystique/legend/history is mostly embellished myth. Certainly they developed some fighting methods, but we need to put this into context -- the Shaolin arts are like cornish wrestling or viking sword or whatever, they were perhaps great for their time but that time has long-since passed. Of course, some still use alleged "historical connections" to Shaolin to promote their art -- this marketing technique relies on "claimed" history to validate their "system" (after all, if you could beat high level fighters, who would give a sh1t about where your art came from? But if you can't beat anyone, you sell your art by saying "I may not be any good by my ancestors were -- and they were the best, from Shaolin!").

[Gangsterfist]

savat
western boxing
wrestling
fencing
caporera(sp?)

All of these were developed in other parts of the world and may have similiarities to some shaolin arts, but they did not originate from shaolin.

CLF is not a shaolin art. Its a combination of two family styles. Hung ga is Hung family style kung fu.

Shaolin may be the root of martial arts, in the sense they started training them before most people, but they are definately not the first people to train for combat and conditioning. The roman empire, the persian empire, spartans, so on and so forth all had martial arts training (combat training) for their armies and soldiers.

[canglong]

But if you can't beat anyone, you sell your art by saying "I may not be any good by my ancestors were -- and they were the best, from Shaolin!"). Terence,
Whenever anyone ask who Robert Chu has fought you are quiet.
Whenever anyone ask who you have beaten silence.
Whenever you post you are always concerned with whom others have beaten.

Your theories reminded me of the bigot that just hates for no apparent reason always concerned with what others are doing so much so you can't improve your own circumstances. These day I think you would be refered to as a playa hater.

For the sake of argument lets just say there are groups out there just as you suggest. That doesn't discredit or disprove other groups such as the one that after they kick your @ss while you lay on the ground dazed and confused thinking about what you can learn or take away fom the experience they then begin to tell you once more about their ancestors or whatever topic they choose to talk about at that point in time for as they say to the victor go the spoils.

No topic is out of bounds for a winner, but I have noticed that your discussion is very narrow minded an limited.

[t_niehoff]

It's no theory that Shaolin is largely myth. It's also not a myth that many use Shaolin to market themselves. Marketing is very revealing.

[duende]

It's no theory that Shaolin is largely myth. It's also not a myth that many use Shaolin to market themselves. Marketing is very revealing.

This kind of rhetoric is in itself it's own form of marketing.

Firehawk asked a simple question. What's revealing is to see how vulnerable you must feel to react in such a way.

[Hendrik]

It's no theory that Shaolin is largely myth. It's also not a myth that many use Shaolin to market themselves. Marketing is very revealing.




TN,



1, In,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34884

We have looked into So called Shao Lin withn around a hundred years before and after Ming's down fall , or up to mid of 1500's, and find There was not likely it had the technology to grow SLT and Wing Chun Kuen.

But, White Crane from Fujian did have the technology. and we examined who Fang Chi-Niang might be.


And, from the Chan patriach of China, Ven Hsu Yun, (who knew what was going on with the Chinese Martial Monk in the previous dynasty such as Ming dynasty, and who had gone throught the last period of Qing dynasty, ) We know, The Lamas were the people who fight in the Boxer rebelion no Chinese Shao Lin Monks involved.





2, In,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36355

We know the Top anti-Qing Man, General Zhen Chen-Kung's original underground organization, which was started by THE MAN himself at the peak of Anti-Qing movements involving Taiwan, And the White Crane of Fujain ancestors where prayed in the Training Hall of this organization.



3, In,


http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/art...o_shanghai.html


We know what was going on in 1850 and Lee Man-mau who lead the Hung Gum or the Red Turban uprising.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36355



Across 1550's to 1900's, we have a 450 years time span under track.
And there was no myth. We even know Dong Ch'an of Shao Lin who was not a real Buddhist mon at the end...






BTW,

While I was in SEA last month, I was told by my Buddhist monk school brother that my sigung, late Ven Shi Gao Can, http://www.authenticshaolin.com/masters.htm, is a real Shao Lin Buddhist Monk who had studied under Shao Lin martial monk. and there was record about my Sigung's training. Some had recoverd the record in Shao Lin.

I brought this up to show that there are lots of information can be traced if it is a fact. It is Chan or not Chan we know because there were traced.


and I believe, IMHHHO, White Crane from Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang fused and created SLT which was the Core of Wing Chun Kuen, the martial art of the Opera actors.


Since the White Crane from Fujian has been very likely is a fact, next is the Emei 12 Zhuang.




You have an interesting post on the Zero distance power.

"**The WCK (body) mechanics produce our power. If someone *knows* those mechanics, they can **teach** it to someone is a very relatively short period of time (hours at most). That person can then perform those in a cooperative setting immediately thereafter -- in other words, they can produce the (significant) **results** (reflecting those mechanics) right away. That doesn't mean they can use it in fighting or have internalized them -- that takes much more practice"



May be we can start to trace Emei 12 zhuang components beging with your post.




Just some thoughts.



Go to go for next flight......

[DRleungjan]

IMHO, as far as marketing is concerned, a product cannot be marketed 'successfully' if it doesn't carry some merit or credibility to it. So I believe it goes for Shaolin. Although heavily shrouded in myths and legends, there has to be a tiny, but heavy shread of truth in order for it's legend to have spread so successfully over many generations.

As far a Wing Chun is concerned. I am no expert, but on observation alone, I'd say that it has a strong connection with White Crane. I always like to point in the direction of the Chum Kiu form when making this association. When it comes to the historical aspect though, it becomes very confusing to me at least, to get a cohesive story down pat.

The Chinese Martial Arts were something exotic and foreign to me at one point in my life. After I was introduced to one of them (Wing Chun my one and only art) by chance. Once I was in, I was taken aback by how rich and diverse it was. CMA are a complete set of tools in the path of self discovery. So in the end, does it matter who beat who or which is better than which? NAH, not for me. All that matters is that I have something that has taken many people's paths toward the truth to make my art work. And some of them have paid dearly with their lives in order that we are able to reap the benefits of their labors.

If I strayed off please forgive me.

Just my 2 pennies. :)

[Gangsterfist]

actually there was an ezine article (im too lazy to look it up atm) about the shaolin temple in china was going to try to get their name trademarked, so they can debunk all the wana-be shaolin schools around the world. That would also mean if it wasn't a true shaolin art, they could not use the name shaolin.

There is an obvious marketing scam of some schools claiming credit to being a shaolin art, or a teacher claiming to know shaolin arts when infact they do not. Hopefully, the shaolin temple will be able to standardize it and then quality control it.

Maybe Gene could chime in if he reads this and clear up this shaolin thing I just mentioned.

[Hendrik]

imhho,


we bring out white crane of fujian and emei 12 zhuang from emei is to reach into a deeper level of understanding of the system and details. we always have to go deeper, growing the awareness broader so that we are not hitting a plateou and stop.

we dont keep changing theme jumping boat when we reach a plateou. as soon as the intensity, the awareness keep growing expanding, the details get finer/deeper examin and master. there is no end of the expansion of awareness and what can be created from the 3d 6directional force vectors components. creation is possible, new innovtion is possible....lots of possibility open up.

thus, there is no need to hire thousands of yes man and making advertisement on witnessing or promoting one's stuffs by step on others. the fact itself is the witness and proof of the value of the system.


so, to avoid stuck at plateo and end up to have to import , mix, making claims as the classical, traditional, original......ect but still in along run goes not far and cannot keep a consistance story to have to use one lie to cover up the previous lie. expand the awareness, based the system as the ancestors on the 6 directional force vectors for those are the key components to deal with force. settle and investigate the open and close. there are depth yet to be reach.

ofcause some will still love to make history and movies for entertainment. that is great and embrace. but those are just entertainment and marketing.

wck is about awareness, 6 directional force components, a unique way of open and closing energy.

just some thoughts

[canglong]

I here alot about that Wing Chun is supposed to come from Fukien White Crane , but maybe it is the otherway around and maybe Fukien White Crane comes from Wing Chun , maybe Wing Chun as we know it is the very first type of Fukien White Crane the ohters developed out of it . --Firehawk Firehawk,
You make a good point.

[mufty]

Hey guys

White crane is older than Wing Chun.

Wing Chun was a development after the Shaolin were persecuted by the Manchurians. And as stated from the Red boats. As one monk from the Shaolin tradition used the travelling show boats to hide. He created Wing chun, a derivative of the White crane.

The names places and dates are freely available, if you wish to read some books on the subject.

However maybe thay are the same but due to the fact that they were practiced in seclusion by diffrent people, the diffrent approach to style and training was developed.

Regards

[Edmund]

Hey guys

White crane is older than Wing Chun.

Wing Chun was a development after the Shaolin were persecuted by the Manchurians. And as stated from the Red boats. As one monk from the Shaolin tradition used the travelling show boats to hide. He created Wing chun, a derivative of the White crane.

The names places and dates are freely available, if you wish to read some books on the subject.


I got a book that says it was developed in Narnia in the summer of 69 by a group of pixies. Which books are you refering to?