Mma Vs San Sau

[fiercest tiger]

Hi All,

Just wanna know what you all think about MMA vs San Sau, what you think is much better fighters and why no kung fu guys go into UFC or MMA tourneys?

This isnt a who is best thread but what you guys think either one is lacking or arent lacking?

Do you think the MMA guys can take it to the San Sau guys using san sau rules and visa versa?

At the end of the day what is better suited outside the rules using both these arts?

regards
FT

[Ray Pina]

From my personal experience:

Fighting with pillows on your hands and a mattress around your head may not always lead to the best fighter winning .... if you can cover up and take some shots and last a few rounds and turn it on you can win. So conditioning is a big factor. Also, all the up and down (not allowing fights to continue on the ground) also brings endurance in.

Fighting with lighter or no gloves, and just letting the fight go its natural course (if guys get tied up in a corner let it go, let it go on the ground, let it go....) is more appealing to me.

I'm sure it's a matter of preferrence. And those that like to fight in their chosen arena probbably excell there. But I would think a MMA fighter has a better chance of waiting for the San Shou guy after the tournament and taking away his trophy than the San Shou guy does of taking it from the MMA art guy.

That's just my opinion based on my experience. And there's a million factors (skill and size being two of them) that can have it go either way. But that's my general answer to the general question.

[SevenStar]

Hi All,

Just wanna know what you all think about MMA vs San Sau, what you think is much better fighters and why no kung fu guys go into UFC or MMA tourneys?

This isnt a who is best thread but what you guys think either one is lacking or arent lacking?

Do you think the MMA guys can take it to the San Sau guys using san sau rules and visa versa?

At the end of the day what is better suited outside the rules using both these arts?

regards
FT

kung fu guys don't enter mma tournies because they aren't training for them. Consequently, if they entered them, they would lose. You don't see mma guys fighting san shou either. They enter their venue of choice and gear their training for it. However, I'd bet that overall more mma guys compete mma than cma compete san shou. I think mma would stand a better chance in san shou than pure san shou guys would in mma though, because of the ground aspect - it's not included at all in san shou, but there is lots of clinch work in mma, so even with the lack of throwing, they are well versed in the clinch.

"outside the rules" - are you referring to the street? If so, then there isn't one that is better than the other - it's whatever you can make work for you.

[SevenStar]

Fighting with pillows on your hands and a mattress around your head may not always lead to the best fighter winning ....


Do you think you would've won had it been mma and not san shou?

[Chief Fox]

I haven't competed in either so take this response for what it's worth.

San Shou = Striking, throws with no ground fighting or submissions.

MMA = Striking, throws with ground fighting and submissions.

By these very simple definitions and even it's name, MMA sounds more complete.

What I've witnessed watching MMA fights is, there are very few kicks and many haymaker type punches with guys leaning towards their strong points (either stand up or ground).

So, would a MMA guy be able to compete with a SS guy using SS rules. Probably but he may be like a fish out of water because of no ground fighting and no submissions.

Would a SS guy be able to compete with a MMA using MMA rules. Probably if he could avoid the take down. But once on the ground or put into a joint lock the SS guy would probably also feel like a fish out of water.

Ray: I see your point about the difference in gloves and head gear BUT consider this. How many MMA fights do you see guys ending up with cuts? Versus, how many SS fights do you see guys ending up with cuts? In MMA if a guy gets a bad cut he cold loose the fight even if he was dominating it the whole time. In SS because of the gear, cuts are not as common so the outcome of the fight depends more on a fighters skill rather than one lucky shot.

[Merryprankster]

"The more popular that MMA is, the less that throwing arts will be emphasised".

Ummmm,

No.....

[Ray Pina]

Do you think you would've won had it been mma and not san shou?

If you're referring to my one San Da fight it's hard to say really... a W is a W .... a L is an L. He didn't land on me, but he sweapt me and I couldn't continue.

But right now, I would love to fight that guy under MMA rules with no gear. And if Mr. Ross reads this and can set that up I would jump on that in a heart beat. Just give me 9 days notice.

[Akhilleus]

I think MMA training would help you learn many different facets of fighting, whereas with san shou training you would focus on stand up figthing, getting really good at that...I remember hearing James Fanshier say that when he does MMA everybody thinks his stand up is really good but when he does san shou it doesn't seem so good...now he was clearly being humble, but his point is valid...I can't really comment on which is better for the street because I haven't really been in any street fights...

[Ray Pina]

so the outcome of the fight depends more on a fighters skill rather than one lucky shot.


Please, let me make one thing clear: those San Da guys, at least the ones I've seen, are very skilled. They are very well rounded fighters.

I'm talking my personal preference here, what I'm finding suits this new style of fighting that is starting to sink in a bit for me. Personally, I never want to fight another man and tell him, well, you can't do this or that. It's a fight. Fights do go to the ground, especially these kind (can't believe I just typed that). But when you fight another man 1 on 1 and you really want to see who wins, you either KO him standing, or you hit him and he gets wobbly and takes a knee and you pounce on him ..... or maybe you're a ground expert and you try to take him down from the get go. But someone has to be down and out.

Anyway, many a fight has been won and lost by one lucky punch. Like the bullet .... it only takes one. This is part of the beauty.

[fa_jing]

"The less throwing arts are emphasized, the more popular MMA will be" is what he meant to say, you grappling octopus!!. ;)

[DragonzRage]

since when did they start calling it 'San Sau'?

A good MMA striker with strong takedown defense or a good MMA throwing artist with at least decent striking skills should be competitive in Sanda. A strong Sanda fighter would do great in MMA if he trained up his ground skills.

Good MMA skills applied with a practical street strategy would be the better streetfighting art for the simple fact that it is more well rounded (and MMA guys are used to fighting without boxing gloves on). But I'm not saying that Sanda is not excellent for a streetfight. Having the training to beat the snot out of someone and then throw him head first into the cement is still a pretty darn formidable skill to have on the streets.


why no kung fu guys go into UFC or MMA tourneys?

-there were actually plenty of kung fu guys who stepped up in the early days of the UFCs but most of them lost miserably, and none were even close to being the most competitive fighters. And nowadays, a fighter usually has to have an enormously successful record in smaller promotions before he'll have a shot at the big events, so you won't see the random kung fu guy pop up in the UFC like you would have back in the old days. Kung fu guys in general just lack the proper training and skill sets to match up against a modern MMA fighter. But as MMA increases in popularity, I won't be surprised if more and more CMA schools begin to orient their training towards MMA. When that happens, you'll start to see talented/well-rounded fighters competing under the banner of CMA. But it'll be Sanda much moreso than kung fu.

[Reggie1]

Hopefully we'll get to actually SEE the real answer to this sometime in the future. I'm sure sooner or later a good San Shou fighter is going to cross train and enter MMA events.

Personally, I can't really say which is better, but I bet San Shou could be a great base to start an MMA career with. Get a good San Shou guy and cross train him in BJJ and I think you would have very well rounded fighter, since San Shou includes striking, standing throws, and clinch work. The only hole is on the ground. If I'm not mistaken the current UFC light heavyweight champ is a great striker who cross trained in groundwork.

[Merryprankster]

IMO San Shou + BJJ or similar art is the wave of the future.

[Ray Pina]

Get a good San Shou guy and cross train him in BJJ and I think you would have very well rounded fighter.

I agree with this whole heartedly, but wouldn't that be MMA already?

I mean, from what I have seen San Da fighters hands don't look Chinese in that I don't see the trapping. Their kicking already looks more like Thai kicking .... or at least I've never seen footage of the old school chinese masters doing roundhouse kicks at all or even side kicks. It was always low walking in kicks.

What I guess I'm saying is that San Da is already a sort of MMA, they just don't let it go to the ground in their competitions.

[PangQuan]

I think that alot of the CMA schools today are very similar to MMA in the respect that they will train their students in more than one style.

This is not new. Of course all the different styles will most likely be from China. When you look at how big China is and the differences in styles (north vs south for example) you will still get a fighter who is realatively mixed up with different styles.

You just retain the flavor of CMA. Of course other cultures have alot to offer a fighter in terms of techniques.

I think MP is pretty right on as far as sport fighting goes though.
SanShou + BJJ or similar is going to get big.

[Reggie1]

I think that alot of the CMA schools today are very similar to MMA in the respect that they will train their students in more than one style.

This is not new. Of course all the different styles will most likely be from China. When you look at how big China is and the differences in styles (north vs south for example) you will still get a fighter who is realatively mixed up with different styles.

I know that's how my school is. I'm sure 7* mantis wasn't invented with a jab, cross, hook, and uppercut, but we learn them. We also use some Wah Lum, Shuai Chiao, and just recently picked up some jiu-jitsu.

But I still think we are a 7* school, even though we learn other stuff. The students still retain the 7* flavor and principles. Hell, according to the legend, the founder of 7* took pieces from the best styles at the time and blended them into his own style. I'd imagine if he was still alive, he would probably want us to pick up more from the best styles present today and add them to what we currently do.


I think MP is pretty right on as far as sport fighting goes though.
SanShou + BJJ or similar is going to get big.

Me too. With the whole striking + clinch + throws already incorporated it's a great base.

[jungle-mania]

I train in sanshou 2 to 3 times a week and I spar MMA on the weekend when I can. In that sense, I am more of a sanshou fighter and a MMA wannabe. I can sincerely tell you that sanshou is not sufficient for MMA, not because we don't do ground fighting, but the habits we pick up in sanshou does not go well with MMA rules. Notice how everytime we throw a guy down, we walk away and wait for the referee to start the fight again, well, it is obviously not a good idea in MMA.

The one benefit that sanshou training does for me in MMA, is that the standup game is really our forte, other fighters do have a difficulty coping with our front leg side kick and fast leg recovery.

I have tried to incorporate a couple of basic leglocks and armbars into my repotoire when sparring in MMA, especially as a finishing move after a throw. It is effective, only if you got a good tight lock, but if not, its fair game for the other guy.

I really doubt sanshou will ever supersede MMA as a more effective martial art, eventhough I think sanshou is more tuned towards handling multiple opponents than MMA (then again I could be biased). MMA fighters do have the advantage over sanshou, in that for an equally good fighter in their respective art, MMA fighters have to learn alot more than sanshou guys in oreder to compete.

[SevenStar]

So, would a MMA guy be able to compete with a SS guy using SS rules. Probably but he may be like a fish out of water because of no ground fighting and no submissions.



depends on who the fighter is - not all hte the fighters are grapplers by trade. silva, crop cop and liddell are examples of guys who have a striking base.

[SevenStar]

d
If you can pull your opponent down to the ground then you probably (not absolutely) won't practice:

- Break fall
- Throwing combo
- Counters against throwing
- Resistence against throwing
- Remain balance after throwing
- Hurting your opponent by your throwing
- Stand up joint locks

You would probably depend heavily on your choke, arm bar or leg bar. If MMA will take over the world then the above skill could be gradually lost from the face of the earth.

What's the difference between

- Control your opponent's arm, and
- Throw him down, and
- Apply arm bar on him.

vs.

- Pull him down, and
- Looking for an arm bar?

The first approach is more difficult but safer. The second approach is easier but more risky (if your opponent has better ground skill then it may be too late to recover). The first approach also give you an earlier start. You will be in better position when you go down to the ground.

Can any of your MMA guys comment on this?



MMA is not about pulling guard. alort of the clinching skills involve wrestling takedowns and clinchwork. Once I take you down, I retain control. we do train combination takedowns and committment to our takedowns and throws. Breakfalling is indeed part of our training - that's common sense, as takedows and throws do get performed. You don't always go to the ground nicely.

As for standing joint locks, they are too unlikely to work in a fight. they are referred to as low % techniques. You don't have the same control of the person standing that you would on the ground.


the first approach you mentioned would be unsuccessful most of the time. You will not throw many people merely by controlling their arm. you have to control their body. Judo works because of kazushi - you are first off balanced - THEN they throw you.

[SevenStar]

I think that alot of the CMA schools today are very similar to MMA in the respect that they will train their students in more than one style.

This is not new. Of course all the different styles will most likely be from China. When you look at how big China is and the differences in styles (north vs south for example) you will still get a fighter who is realatively mixed up with different styles.

You just retain the flavor of CMA. Of course other cultures have alot to offer a fighter in terms of techniques.



MMA is not mixing random styles and teaching what's useful from them - that's more of a jkd model. MMA is two things - striking and grappling. I wouldn't call combining 7* and taiji as mma, however I would consider tkd and wrestling as mma.

[Merryprankster]

YKW,

It's very difficult to pull your opponent down now, what with most people doing MMA not letting you do that any more. The days of guard pulling like that are pretty much over.

Oh, wait. I missed 7*'s post. What he said.

[PangQuan]

MMA is not mixing random styles and teaching what's useful from them - that's more of a jkd model. MMA is two things - striking and grappling. I wouldn't call combining 7* and taiji as mma, however I would consider tkd and wrestling as mma.

I see what your saying.

On a similar note. I was reading the latest issue of KUNG FU TAI CHI MAGAZINE :D when I came across the dog style kung fu. I would be interested to see how the ground game offered there would do with a good standing CMA game in a MMA style match.

Would you consider say....7* and Dog Style (Gouquan was it?) to be a MMA style?

Also would a true JKDist be considered to be a highly involved form of MMA, since a ground game with good grappling and joint manipulation is highly stressed in JKD?

[SevenStar]

Would you consider say....7* and Dog Style (Gouquan was it?) to be a MMA style?

Also would a true JKDist be considered to be a highly involved form of MMA, since a ground game with good grappling and joint manipulation is highly stressed in JKD?

yeah, I'd consider it one.

grappling, as I understand it, is not stressed in all jkd. I know straight blast gym emphasizes it, so do vunak's guys. I'm not sure about the other groups, however - particularly the traditional/jun fan guys. When I trained jun fan, we did no grappling whatsoever.

[PangQuan]

Do you train at straight blast gym?

[SevenStar]

no. I've heard alot about them though. But if I'm not mistaken, there are a few people on this forum who do train with them. are you interested in SBG?

[PangQuan]

Nope. I live in Portland OR, I met this guy who trained there in 2000. I thought he was a jerk. Plus I know he was involved in some not so healthy stuff. This made me want to stay away from there.

I have some friends who are into MMA and they say to stay away from there.

I have never been there so my incident could be totaly isolated. I have no real personal preference.