Yin AND Yang

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From another forum comes the following post:

"As one observes the Taiji symbol, one could see how the doctrine of Yin and Yang would dictate that if an opponent is Yang the other should be Yin. If they are both Yin, there would be no fight. If they are both Yang the victory will go to the larger, stronger, faster opponent. If size, speed and strength are the only martial skills that should be developed, how is it that the old Taiji Master can subdue the much younger, stronger opponent?

As to attempting to unbalance you (a subject near and dear to my heart!); If you are solidly grounded and rigid (yang), you can be uprooted and pushed over using only four ounces. It is only when you are solidly grounded and soft (yin) that I can not move you, even WITH force.

It seems that developing the Yin abilities like sensitivity, intuition, (stickiness?), soft power, and responsiveness are what gave the old Masters their near-mystical skills. But without the confidence that these abilities work, we tend not to develop them to the point that they are there for us when we need them."

This post is preceded by a request for quotes from the classics or Masters that advocate the use of "hardness" in Taiji..

My response was as follows:

"Agreed, whole-heartedly.. but, again, i assert the balance.. i have yet to feel the "magical" quality so often referenced.. i have felt remarkably trained "force", "timing" and "sensitivity".. but, the "four ounce" parable exists only within constrained limits.. Master Wong moved me with impecable timing AND applied force, and it was not soft force.. it was applied precisely and with tangible intent..

I have no doubt that superior training and "confidence" will yield similar results to those mentioned.. but, i urge anyone to develop equal "confidence" in more conventional martial skills if their intent is to develop a complete self-defense system.. remember, the opponent has their own intentions, often supplemented by rage (rage is a decisive variable in many conflicts).. it is one thing to feel the power of your developed and cultivated practice in a controled setting, quite another "in the streets".. see the link below to understand my meaning..

http://www.personalprote ctionsystems.ca/multimedia.htm

Let me state that i fully believe that developed Taiji arts are devastatingly effective.. i simply don't believe we have the training methodology to take it to that level.. the "old Masters" lived and fought "in the streets", it had to work for them.. we don't have that level of training, we don't test our arts "in the streets".. i suggest that 50% of the time the training we ARE "capable of" will serve us well.. but, i also suggest that we must be prepared for the other 50% as well.. Confidence will get you there, over-confidence will push it past its capabilities.."

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Be well...

[cam]

I have been led to believe that Yin And Yang are always present, in complimentary though not to equal degrees at all times.
For where I am right now in my training I prefer the terms, "open and closed" or "substantial and insubstantial" as when one part opens it's complimentary part closes, though not as disjointed parts but rather the other side of a coin.
If this connection isn't there you're simply not doing taiji.
I've heard it said that taiji is born in wuji and returns to wuji on completion, while I feel that the wuji is always present as the sums of open and closed. If you assume open to be positive and closed to be negative, they should both combine to equal zero, or at least to be approaching it. Wuji

[pruningmantis]

my work as an electrician has offered me a chance to see the yin and yang of my tai chi practice from the aspect of yang as a charged magnetic field and the yin as the absence of one. its the transition from one state to the other that produces the chi much like ac current is induced in a wire by expanding and collapsing magnetic fields.

[SPJ]

This is a good thread. However, Yin and Yang are coexisting when separating. Or opening Kai. They both are shrinking when coming together or closing He.

This exists in MA, all styles, and everything.

When you do a straight punch, the fist is Yang. And everything else is Yin. Your feet balanced on the ground, the rotation of the waist, and rotation and extension of the forearm and the fist etc are all Yin. The nurturing and expression of a punch Yang are from Yin, the body structure and all.

1. So for every move, we have to know where is the Yang and Yin. If you do a right punch, your right fist is Yang and your other hand defending is Yin. These are interchangeable. If your right fist is blocked, you may rotate your wrist and open the palm to grab the opponent's blocking forearm. The grabbing right hand is Yin and you punch with your left fist which is now Yang.

2. How to interchange between Yin and Yang in hands, steps, postures etc.

3. When in fight, you go to the opponent's Yin. You neutralize or guide his Yang away from you. You use Yin to deal with his Yang. You use your Yang to deal with his Yin.

4. Push hands drills is practicing to stay in contact, listening, sticking etc. It is to know the opponent's intent and Jing.

5. One man or solo practice is to know your own Jing.

In short, when practice every move in the form, we have to know Yin and Yang in any moment of our moves.

You twirl your right forearm in a circle in front of you. There are both Yin and Yang at any points in the circle.

The direction of the Jing is changing all the time in the circle.

There are inward and upward. And then outward and upward. And then outward and downward. And then inward and downward.

When you Peng to contact the opponent's punching forearm, your forearm is rotating to contact. This Yin or soft Jing to merge into the opponent's Yang linear Jing. You also introduce a lateral circular Jing from rotating of your forearm. The opponent's direction of Jing is lost. This is called sticking.

Where is the Yang? It is from your waist. You rotate your waist. You have a strong revolving Jing around your waist. This is the main Jing. If you position right, you may Lu the opponent further from your waist movement and the opponent falls to his front.

For more discussion.

Check our my new book when it is available in amazon.com.

In 3 to 5 weeks, there will be free pages to look inside.

[JohnnyMnemonic]

Let me state that i fully believe that developed Taiji arts are devastatingly effective.. i simply don't believe we have the training methodology to take it to that level.. the "old Masters" lived and fought "in the streets", it had to work for them.. we don't have that level of training, we don't test our arts "in the streets".. i suggest that 50% of the time the training we ARE "capable of" will serve us well.. but, i also suggest that we must be prepared for the other 50% as well.. Confidence will get you there, over-confidence will push it past its capabilities.."

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Be well...

I think you don't know the right people.

I knew a Tai Chi guy once. One day when he wasn't paying attention, he bragged a little.

He was learning another art from an 80 or 85 known, acknowledged master. No doubts, no 9.99 for power, no flying thru the air imagination master. A real live master.

These old guys are known for being blase or emotionless. They would sit and watch the class and act as if they never paid attention. They would never react no matter what happened.

One day the guy was working out with a fellow student. He did a block to the guys leg. The guy was totally astounded to see the teacher react. He nodded or looked surprised or something. Something he had never done before.

I don't know about you but when a known master who is 80 years old and never pays attention to anything, shows a reaction to a Tai Chi block from a Tai Chi guy, there is something going on there.

Later on, the Tai Chi guy saw his sparring partner in class. The guy was on crutches. The Tai Chi guy blocked him so hard that his entire lower leg had turned black. He couldn't walk and had to use crutches. The guy got in the Tai Chi guys face and said "this is YOU!. YOU did this".

It is very rare to find real teachers. Making broad statements about what is and isn't possible based on exposure to young or unqualified teachers is foolishness. Your name is Bob so I guess you are western. I don't think you really know what is possible with Tai Chi. Those chinese guys keep that stuff very very very very close.

The stuff they teach is so they can get rich from westerners that don't know any better. Please do not get upset unknown reader. If you know Tai Chi, you know more than most other people. Don't get upset because you don't know it all or the really real stuff. All masters keep the good stuff back except for the favorite or the very best students.

Or, they "hide it" because the student is incapable of performing or understanding.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

JohnnyMnemonic: Thank you for your broad assumptions regarding my experience.. I have trained with Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, W.C.C.Chen, Ms. Cui Yu Li, Wei Lun Huang, and other less publicized but no less proficient teachers.. I offer my insights based on more than 15 years of concentrated studies in Taiji and related arts, based on my relationship with a recognized master as an "inside" student.. and as a successful competitor in international push-hands competitions.. I do not offer commentary lightly, or without contemplation.. I stand by my assertion that we, as westerners, don't have the same training opportunities that the Chinese Masters of generations past had.. that there is a balance between Yin AND Yang, soft AND hard..

The stuff they teach is so they can get rich from westerners that don't know any better. Please do not get upset unknown reader. If you know Tai Chi, you know more than most other people. Don't get upset because you don't know it all or the really real stuff. All masters keep the good stuff back except for the favorite or the very best students. I think you speak dishonorably of most "real Masters".. my experience is that they are quite open, that they realize there are only a few that will understand the profundity of their teachings and even fewer that have the focus to see it through.. why hide what is only understood by the deserving?

I had hoped to keep this positive and find insights from others regarding the question at hand.. but, that is not the way of this forum..

It is very rare to find real teachers. Making broad statements about what is and isn't possible based on exposure to young or unqualified teachers is foolishness. Your name is Bob so I guess you are western. I don't think you really know what is possible with Tai Chi. I find that you are correct, i do not "know what is possible with Tai Chi", and i don't pretend to know its potential.. my feeling is that it is unlimited , so it would be pretentious to assert a "knowing".. However, the point of my referenced post was that unless one is willing to "live the Art", completely immersed in training, and with a qualified Master.. they would be well advised to develop a back-up system if they intend to "take it to the streets".. and that comes from direct experience with qualified Masters and in the streets.. And, no, my life-style does not permit complete immersion in my art.. i can only train actively about 15-20 hours a week.. and half of that is teaching..

Now, back to the issue.. can anyone assist in quotes or personal knowledge of Masters advocating the use of "hardness" in Taiji?

Thanks, and Be well..

[Buddy]

Sure, in Boston Gin Soon Chu's school uses a hard method of pushing to develop structure. They use a sort of popping frame to develop fajin.

[cam]

SPJ, you stated that Yang comes from the waist, though it seems to me if the waist is turning due to a yielding motion wouldn't that be considered Yin?

[SPJ]

Yes. You are correct.

If you turn to your left to yield, it is a Yin.

You are ready to turn to your right with counter attack and that will be Yang.

This is called reversible rotation, turn exhange or Zhuan Huang. This principle applies to the body (waist), steps and arm movements, too.

In other joints such as wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc, there is a step to to assume a vertical palm and then you may rotate your arms either way.

My point was that Yin and Yang coexist and interchange. You cannot focus on one without considering the other. such as focusing on only the softness or only the hardness. Then it is not Tai Chi.

;)

[imperialtaichi]

i simply don't believe we have the training methodology to take it to that level...



Hello Bob,

On the contrary, I think we have a better chance to access good Tai Chi then people before. We have forums to talk to people from all around the world to exchange ideas, we have books etc... and we are better educated so we can grasp some of the concepts easier. Of course, we lack time :-)

Talking about "hardness", my teacher did talk about Leng (cold) Jin of which we issue short sharp internal energy to specific organs, instead of firing or bouncing the opponent off. It is still done softly, but suppose to cause a tremendous amount of damage.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

imperialtaichi: I agree that we have more resources for study.. i assert that we lack the urgency/motivation of our ancestors.. it has become more of a hobby or entertainment or health exercise.. too little emphasis on Taiji's history as a valid martial art..

Too many people taking symbology literally lead to unrealistic expectations and ineffective training.. there is a separate art in the interpretation of "classics" and symbology.. Yin AND Yang, at its basic concept, is a balance of soft and hard.. extremes in either direction are counter-productive and ultimately turn into their opposites.. at the end of a hard push you reach the limit of range and the expenditure of energy, retreating back into softness, Yin.. as you yield back to your limit of balance and range you require force to change direction or maintain position, Yang.. Taiji's gift is the understanding and training of these principles to an advantage.. to utilize the advantages from the calm center of the extremes.. as one of my mentors once said, "excess is the path to deficiency"..

Even in the mystical assumptions of utilizing Qi, one must necessarily choose hard or soft Qi, aggressive or passive Qi.. and, the prime motivator is intention..

Be well..

[threetimes]

yin yang theory is ellusive... often the first thing missed is yin yang are always veiwed in a context. yin yang are not seperate, there is always yin within yang, and yang within yin. one does not exist without the other and they can be infinatly divided down.

People who want a better understanding of Yin Yang theory should first take a look at the '4 laws of yin yang' to get the basic understanding of the dynamic.

[SPJ]

Yin and Yang are Daoist way of theorizing and understanding changes in nature including time and space.

The definition started with when the Sun shines on the things including your face or front if you face the Sun. It is called the sunny side or Yang. The Sun is called the ultimate Yang or Tai Yang.

The shadowy side will be Yin or the ray of the Sun will not reach due to you or things blocking the Sun. So that Yin and Yang comprise of the whole space or time.

Yin and Yang may represent all the seemingly opposing and yet interacting 2 factors. Or one factor with 2 interacting and opposing phenomena.

The front and the back, the day and the nite, the east and the west, the north and the south, -----

In Tai Chi fist, you are always using your front to face the opponent's Jing, so that you have more room to extend. The opponent is on his backside may only reverse his Jing. So you are Sun and he is Bei.

Sun and Bei are the tactics and strategy of Tai Chi fighting methods.

Your positioning by steps is everything. The availability of Jing due to walking into a new position to be in Sun is called walking Jing or Zhou Jing. And this usually constitutes 99% of your Jing.

Zhou Jing is the Yin and Yang that most people are not aware of.

I used the analogy of leveraging. You move your steps into a good leverage point while the opponent is not.

If you have elbow rooms or waist rotation rooms to extend or rotate, you have Yin in store. On the other hand, if the opponent is extended with the elbow joint, it is Yang. He has to retract his arms to be able to extend them again.

In short, Yin and Yang may represent the extremes of 2 factors or 2 phenomena of the same factor.

The study is to learn how to change between the 2 extremes. Ba Gua and Wu Xing were used to represent 8 Jing methods and 5 steps. These are called 13 postures or torso methods or 13 Shi by Zhang San Feng.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Bob - John Ding said something to the effect of "if you can get away with just hitting them very hard, then do so. Don't overcomplicate".

I think the problem comes that people misunderstand Yang as being hard external type force that you would build up through boxing or another similar art, that therefore has no place in Taiji. It's very effective but it isn't developed the same way as Yang energy in Taiji. I was taught that the only way to develop true Yang/hardness (aside from viagra) was to develop and work on being properly Yin and soft. A proficient external artist builds up hard tense force (Yang) and then learns to soften and relax (Yin) - this is great. A proficient Taiji artist develops Sung and all the other skills/attributes of the Yin side, and then develops the Yang hard power from there.

As my instructor would say "either develop the iron bar and then wrap it in cotton; or develop the cotton wrapping and then fill it with the iron bar. Just avoid wrapping cotton in cotton, or wrapping iron in iron. Both are useless"

[qiphlow]

i have to agree with bob regarding westerners and training. most (not all, just most) of us don't have the time to train 8, 10, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, myself included! we have to work, feed the kids, feed ourselves, socialize, train, sleep, meditate, etc. so therefore, we probably won't get as deep into our taiji as we would like to. of course, there are those who will be lucky enough to get the "superpowers" by doing half assed training once every other week, but they are few and far between. the majority of us, including my teacher, have to work, work, work at it.

now, as far as advocating the use of hardness:
my teacher has always told us that you should be soft when you need to be soft, hard when you need to be hard. if attacked, i would want to make sure that i deal with the attack as quickly as i could, and make sure that the attacker either doesn't want to continue, or is physically unable to continue. sometimes you can be soft to accomplish this, sometimes you must be hard. another important concept is that soft does not have to mean limp, or lax, or without any energy.
when i am playing push hands, or playing forms, i try to make sure that my yin parts still have intention, that they are not just sitting there (if that makes any sense).

i am sure that one does not accomplish the feat of throwing one's opponents 10 feet away by being "slack". there has to be some hardness there. i think these skills come from a very highly developed sense of sticking, listening, following, timing, etc.

[imperialtaichi]

i have to agree with bob regarding westerners and training. most (not all, just most) of us don't have the time to train 8, 10, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, myself included! we have to work, feed the kids, feed ourselves, socialize, train, sleep, meditate, etc. so therefore, we probably won't get as deep into our taiji as we would like to. of course, there are those who will be lucky enough to get the "superpowers" by doing half assed training once every other week, but they are few and far between. the majority of us, including my teacher, have to work, work, work at it.



I think the only way for modern men and women to get the most out of the training is to incorporate it into part of living... as discussed in another thread. We just can't afford the time otherwise. For example, when I get in and out of the elevator, I try to sense people's energy around me and evade and redirect the forces and pivot and turn etc. The only problem is that people think I'm nuts
:-)

Cheers,
John

[qiphlow]

imperialtaichi has an excellent point. if we look, there are always opportunities to train outside of the class setting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hardness and softness are subjective terms in comparison to the situation.. like the water example where ice is Yin by temperature to 70° water but Yang in structure (hardness).. Yin and Yang are interchangable within the same individual instance according to the opponent's application of the same.. If a larger opponent applies significant force and a smaller one uses less force to deflect, the smaller opponent is Yin or soft by comparison.. however, the same force used by the smaller person may be quite Yang compared to a person standing in Wuji.. Now, it should be noted that in the dynamics of push-hands there exists a condition where one or both players may each be Yin AND Yang at the same time.. suppose i twist my torso clockwise (right side yielding and left side advancing) neutralizing a push to my right side while simultaneously my left hand utilizes the natural energy of the twisting torso to apply force to my opponent's center.. i am Yin on the right AND Yang on the left (balanced).. it is this dynamic balance to which i refer the need for Yin AND Yang.. Hard and soft, as absolutes, are undesirable extremes.. The assertion that Taiji, at its highest level, is Yin discounts the necessity to include physics and kinetic principles.. it is an ideological concept, much valued philosophically for the wisdom of pointing the way to more subtle and refined Taiji experiences...

What i have experienced is that with careful listening skills and appropriate timing a Taiji player can apply "4 ounces of force" MORE than the opponent's and affect the balance and direction of an opponents intentions.. This is a tricky observation, although the opponent may be applying significant force in a particular direction, other directions are deficient, so.. carefully timed and carefully targeted "4 ounces of force" in an opponent's deficient direction will overcome the significant force applied in some other direction.. but, still, the applied "4 ounces" is Yang compared to the deficient target, if it were not it wouldn't effect change.. The comparison of the opponent's significant force in one direction is not appropriate in the application of "4 ounces" against the same opponent's other Yin direction.. (but, it sounds good).. 4 ounces will not meet 1000 pounds head on and prevail, it can be applied from a different direction to create change favorable to a desired result, but that direction is not supported by the 1000 pounds.. Even supposing that one's listening skills are so well honed that they read intention prior to manifestation and the "4 ounces" are applied prior to the full manifestation of the 1000 pounds, one has only deflected or controlled "potential" or intention by Yang application to the actual unmanifested 1000 pound condition..

I cautioned earlier against misunderstanding the "4 ounces" analogy in the hopes of initiating awareness of this important issue.. in hopes that students don't develop a "superior Yin" mentality.. and apply it when they need a balance of Yin AND Yang.. a false sense of Taiji.. The Taiji Symbol itself speaks of the balance and dynamic nature of interaction.. Even the cultivation and application of Qi takes on a Yang aspect when compared to the opponent's use of the same energies if you intend to prevail.. Likewise, the training and development of the skills necessary to prevail is a Yang intention in so much as the intention is to prevail..

In the grand scheme of things, even the analogies of water overcoming harder and more substantial forces is misunderstood.. erosion occurrs over time and the combined energies of water, over time, are superior to the fixed energies which it overcomes.. sure, the immediate or local observation of water's softness appears Yin, but the accrued energies of water are the deciding factor.. a single drop of water seems unimportant as it hits the flat rock, but.. over time, the combined energies of thousands or millions of drops will drill a hole through what appears to be a more Yang rock.. but, it is the water's ultimate Yang superiority applied and combined over time that prevails..

I hope this further clarifies my understandings of these issues.. i do not stand against ancient wisdoms lightly, in fact, i think i am hoping someone can validate them.. but, i am currently convinced that there is a misapplication of philosophy that leads students to shape their Taiji experience with misinterpreted concepts... Fortunately, our bodies and sub-conscious awarenesses care little about philosophy and the end product of sincere training will likely embody the notions i have shared here.. i am only hoping to communicate more clearly the actuallity compared to the ideology..

Author's Note: The above only represents "my" current understandings and is not intended to be an assertion of "truth".. I am open to change and revised understandings based on evidence..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Yin is relative to Yang. Yang is relative to Yin.

Everything is changing in relation to time and space.

The key is to change according to the opponent.

The opponent is moving fast, you move a bit.

The opponent is slow or retarded, you move fast.

The opponent is using a big force, you divert or redirect with a little force. You yield to the force by steps and rotation around the waist.

The opponent is using a small force, you take charge with a bigger force.

The Qi and Jing are all over your body. Huen Shen Si Jing.

Where to direct and release is all dependent on the opponent.

To listen to the opponent's Jing and Qi is actually using a small force of Peng to test the response from the opponent.

There is Yang in your Yin. There is Yin in your Yang.

There is gentleness in your hardness. There is hardness in your gentleness.

Kong Zhong Yo Ruo. Rou Zhong Yo Kong.

Kong Ruo Xiang Ji.

The Yin and Yang compliment and help each other.

The change and dynamic of Yin and Yang are represented by Tai Chi.

Thus the name is Tai Chi fist.

:)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

I like your thoughts concerning the cumulative Yin action of dripping water resulting in an overall Yang effect.

I too have considered some common misunderstandings many have concerning the example of the Yin principle of water overcoming the Yang principle of rock.

One of my thoughts has been that the Yang aspect of water, ICE, is actually much more efficient in wearing down rock than the Yin aspect of water. Consider the length of time it might take for dripping water or the wave action of water to wear down rock and then consider the actions of a glacier, the Yang aspect of water, grinding a valley or ravine out of a mountain, treating rock as Yin!

I am not intending to negate the Yin qualities or principles of water, because greater Yang always changes smaller Yang to Yin! I consider it merely a fascinating thought that many do not consider when formulating thoughts on the efficacy of the Yin aspect of water.

So we may say that Yin overcomes Yang, but also Greater Yang transforms Yang to Yin, and thereby overcoming Yin as well!

All this does is demonstrate the “mutually interdependent” nature of Yin and Yang! The effects of both aspects should not be minimized or ignored as you have proposed! Each give rise to the other, but also, the advance of one creates a vacum for the other to fill!!

Each subdues the other, but also, as one principle advances it creates a vacuum for the other to fill! So, just as Yin advances and subdues Yang, Yang follows and fills the vacuum left by Yin, as Yang advances and subdues Yin, Yin follows and fills the vacuum created by Yang’s advance!

By retreating Yin advances! By advancing Yang retreats!