Modern Combat?

[PangQuan]

I have wondered for some time now, what is this classification of "modern fighting"? I have heard this term used many times, but I fail to understand what is so different about fighting now than how fighting was done 500 years ago? Is it because now we use rules with protective gear, where in the past it was usually a real fight, which sometimes ended in death? If so, are people who are preparing themselves for "modern fighting", being set trained to meet a false ideal of combat? I do see the obvious benefits for sport fight training in dealing with actual combat, but there are some serious things missing.

If we step back and look at those that do train for "modern fighting" we would see, Military special forces (ranging from many countries) and a multitude of other military personel, Police officers, Militia's, and the occasional individual who would like to be prepared for war. These people learn to kill. Not get a ringout, submission, knockout, or judge based award.

Many martial artists fall out of this category of training for "modern fighting", they instead fall into the category of training for "modern sport fighting".

Is the term "modern fighting" in actuality being used in place of the term "modern sport"? Would not modern fighting be the exact same as old style fighting with the exeption of firearms and other state of the art weaponry. I am not pinpointing any specific style or preference. All combative activities are included.

If training for "modern fighting", the only difference now days is this, the addition of firearms, the exclusion of martial weapons (swords, spears, etc...), and laws.

I think there is a distinction between combat and sport that is regularly missed.

Im not getting into the whole "too deadly for the ring" bullsh!t. Im talking in realative terms in regards to our modern day world of life, death, war, and sport.

With this distinction made between sport and life, how many of you train for more than the ring? Can you hit a moving target at 50 yards? Can you remove an armed opponent with empty hand techs, with deadly force if needed? Are you versed in some life saving first aid techniques? Can you survive in the wilderness if needed?

Im not saying that this is a necessary type of mindset or training. But I think this would be the type of training that would fall under "modern fighting".

Are you made for the ring or are you made for life? Or are you made for both? I am not implying that one who fights for sport is limited to that particular area, just that there is a deffinate difference between sport fighting and defending your life, or simply taking anothers.

Some thoughts?

[Ray Pina]

For me, fighting today, in today's world, means not underestimating anyone and assuming that they can kick well, punch well, throw well and grapple well.

I don't know if you could have assumed that 10 years ago or not. But I saw a Goju Ryu guy fight yesterday and it looked like a big improvement from the Goju Ryu stuff I saw in tournaments as a kid (I come from an Issin-Ryu background).

This guy was kicking LOW and hard, striking well and clinching. I haven't seen all of that from Karate before. I think MMA has pushed everyone, has raised everyone's bar a bit.

[PangQuan]

I think your right. MMA has been pushing a new standard on people.

I think this standard was always there, just not quite so visible.

I will say that for the most part TMA practitioner suck. There are very good ones, and there are very bad. But the type of training used in the old days by many masters, or in many temples now, is completely overlooked. These types of methods are what created many of the great masters.

It would be obsurd to believe that no CMA could hold his own in a MMA cage match. Many would get worked but there are those who would not.

Just as there are many MMA practitioner who would get cut the F up by someone with a knife. Some however would not.

My thing is many sport fighters only train for sport. TMA, MMA, and deffinately western boxing..

Where is the seperation? Why not train for life as well as sport, or vise versa.

I see a larger point stressed in TMA in regards to life readiness, and preparedness to kill, or defend life.

Often the idea of killing with your hands is scoffed at and forgotten. It seems more stress is placed on being able to continue with a career in fighting based arts, than to continue life in an actual life threatening combat situation.

Of course the chance of needing to kill or defend a life with your art is rare, to nill. Should it be viewed as a waste of time?

I bet one situation will make ones mind up for the rest of life.

[SPJ]

As pointed out;

Any fight is a random event.

Certain rules in any event will favor certain tactics and strategy.

If the rules change and so is the gameplay.

People will always even the odds to be fair in the ring events.

However, fight on the streets is always about doing stuff when odds are in your favor.

The assailents will come in numbers and with weapons. They would attack at the dark corner of the street. Oftentime, the victim will be out numbered and out weaponed.

So the game is to tilt the odds in your favor. Such as never walk alone in the dark. Have cell phone with GPS and 911 auto dials. Friends and family plan to alert your position so that they can call 911 for you etc.

To fight in the battlefield, you have to work closely with your unit. Assess all the conditions in the zone, engage when it is in your favor. Disengage when the wind is blowing the other way or odds against you.

Training is only conditioning you to work the best within a certain parameters.

There will always be some specific drills before each mission or assignment.

All the intel has to be as close to the real deal as possible.

There is no way to train in one way to fit all fighting scenarios.

In short, there are some general training. However, for each mission, there are also special training geared toward the success of that particular mission.

So for the most part, people are trained in a general way to maintain fitness overall, combat or not combatant, in the ring or outside the ring.

:D

[PangQuan]

Good feedback.

I see your point of train for situation. This is very true.

What of the base to build for area you may encounter in the future? Train some now so later not as much to re-evaluate? For instance, I can shoot, I have wilderness training. But I do not shoot every month. Nor do I camp everymonth.

If I need to shoot I can do so now. If I need to find north in the wilderness, or find herbs, or food, I can do so now.

Idea of where target is will improve my shooting. But I have the foundation to work with.

How rounded is the training to build a foundation with? Does one take upon themselves to aquire the training that is not yet there.

Much like MMA aquire the ground because its not there. I aquire the gun because MA does not have it. I learn plant and methods that my kung fu does not teach.

I do not join the military because I will not kill a man from orders deemed from political advantages. Yet I will train in military matters.

I do not join the tournament to fight in matches, because I will not fight a man in sport for titles. Yet I will learn the rules and watch the game.

For I may need to defend my country by force one day, or my Sifu may ask me to compete for the school/training.

How far do we need to take rounded training? How far should one specialize, and in how many areas? Where is the time?

[David Jamieson]

I think of it in terms of tightening up that which is already present.

A lot of the things you here like tuck your chin, keep your guard up, control the centreline etc etc are sound principles that are not lost on the mma set.

They are principles that exist in TCMA as well, it is at beginner and intermediate levels where they are not strictly adhered to though in my experience.

Once you eat a few bangs, you get the hang of shrimping up a bit, tightening your stance and using more shuffle step to get around. You also drop linear movement pretty fast unless you like being overwhelmed by a barrage of punches. :D

[SevenStar]

My thing is many sport fighters only train for sport. TMA, MMA, and deffinately western boxing..

Where is the seperation? Why not train for life as well as sport, or vise versa.



I'm really not sure that there should be a difference. In a multiple attacker stiuation, best thing is to run. same against weapons. If you must fight, use what you know.... I really don't think TMA are too much better off in either of these situations, unless you spend more than 70% of your time training weapons, like a kalista.

As far as empty hands goes, killing blows aren't necessary. you want to end a fight with a strike to the temple, i want to end one with a hook to the jaw - as long as the fight is ended, what does it matter? And, how likely is it that your hands are such that you CAN efficiently kill with them. Is the tma REALLY any better off in the street? I don't think so. Just different strokes for different folks.

[PangQuan]

To run or back down is always the first and best option. Of course. As long as your ego is in check with reality.

Not saying one SHOULD kill with hands. Especially on the streets, against some asswipe.

Nor am I saying that I CAN efficiently kill with my hands. I do have training that I practice for that but its kind of hard to get good practice. :p

Give me enough adrenaline and an enemy who needs to die, we may have a shot. My life over his, if I get in there, yes I can kill a man with my hands. Just about anyone can given the correct insentive. But if you give me a gun, Ill surely shoot him first.

This senario is more of a wartime one. Behind enemy lines kinda thing. Very unlikely senario, but when I step back and look at the political dealings between the leaders of this world, I see one thing. A very delicate juggling of off-balance roles. Our world order is much more fragile than it may seem.

WWI and WWII both occured in one mans lifetime. Who will trigger the next. Will I be called to fight for the cause of righteousness? Will I be prepared?

[WinterPalm]

I think one can prepare themselves, they owe it to themselves but to not let it consume them. We have two types, the competition athelte at one end, and the nut with a bunker, missiles, and duct tape and plastic wrap over all the windows. One is training for the ring and must, in todays UFC world, prepare full time. The other is preparing for the armageddon or whatever end of times scenario is popular, ie, Y2K, 9/11, or any other rehashed fear. Realistically, if you are going to get gunned down or knocked out, you are going to get gunned down or knocked out. Doesn't mean you can't prepare, and you should certainly prepare for these unfortunate circumstances; however, if you get too into it, you may be looking for that ultimate fight, UFC, or dedicate your whole life to waiting for something to go wrong.
Many people I know of sacrifice their lives for their fear and this is not a healthy thing. Have a good time, be safe, prepare so as to be able to handle situations, such as drowning, CPR, fighting, nuclear winter... :)
Maybe I am just ignoring what you guys are gettting at, but I think that there are many great things in life that if you don't notice them, and always wait for that one bad thing, you are going to miss out on the fruits of life. Kung Fu is about way more than fighting and to dedicate yourself to violence seems twisted to me.

I don't mean to belittle UFC fighting but, and more on topic, I think that any sound delivery system, conditioning, and mental and physical endurance should be enough to defend on the street. THere are many techniques with which Kung Fu has but cannot practice becuase of how deadly they are. ON the other side of that coin, MMA has nothing of that sort but a very efficent delivery system. TO say that MMA would not be street effective is ridiculous in my opinion. MMA is brawling with high skill and the attitude rehashed every night they step into the octagon. I bet they feel that intensity of what is coming every time they get in there.
Many Kung Fu systems are passed on by skilled practioners with no desire to participate in cage fighting. They have learned for street combat if necessary, for health and longevity, and spiritual development. Many kung fu practiioners I know of have defended themselves on the street. They are effective. MMA are people training for a career as a combat athelte and that is their lives. To belittle either of these traditions would not do either justice. However, the frauds abound in any camp are deserving of the ridicule, but that should not carry over to the rest of the people within that system or style or orientation. Just like racism...

[PangQuan]

Good points there WP, we deffinately need to stop and smell the roses, even if they are covered in your enemies blood...

J/K :D

[Fu-Pow]

The question you ask is not simple:

Basically, if death is certain but the time of death is uncertain, then what should I do?

If the stench of death and destruction looms large around you then you will train to survive. If you live in a well-to-do country where people are oblivious to death then people will train for sport and health.

The nut jobs are people who are paranoid and imagine death and destruction around them even when none exists. And flip side of the coin is the nut jobs who think that training for sport or health will help them to survive in a life/death situation.

[David Jamieson]

It is admittedly a lot easier to find out who is a fraud and who is not when we talk about mma training vs traditinal martial arts training.

why?

For instance an mma person will hit the mat with you and demonstrate what it's about and you will become acutely aware of your leaks right away. Often times in traditional martial arts environment you are led down a garden path thinking that you are developing something deadly and that it takes years and years to be able to apply.

Simple truth is you can't swim if you don't go in the water and playing guns in a sandbox with your pals is safer than playing guns on a battlefield (metaphorically speaking) More people like the safer environment of form work and do martial arts for self discipline, a structured regimen and an interesting way of keeping fit, getting a little taste of another cultural practice and so on. There aren't many who actually want to risk a little injury in their practice and many times there is a lot of "face" involved.

Having said all that, I practice both. Traditional martial arts for the values it has, and mma for the practical application of things and more immediate results. mma training I have also found to be much more demanding on the CV end of things and there is immediacy in learning as far as attack and defend goes and very little chaff and unrealism. Traditional on the other hand is good for building and is more gentle on teh body over time and allows for a lot of augmentation to the other.

They both have value, but if I wanted to learn to fight I would take the mma path to achieve the results faster. If I want to develop overall Kungfu, then I drink from the cup of traditional. Fighting and martial skill is almost secondary in the traditional format these days.

Having spent a great deal of time in my life seeking these things out for both reasons, It does a person well to get a good foundation and good mechanics from a traditonal martial art and then to sharpen that knife to a keen edge with modern combatives. The modern combatives training will bring out a lot of the qualities required to actually cross hands and to be comfortable with it. Traditional martial arts don't allow for this in as short a period as good mma skill development will.

signed
pretty much converted :p

[David Jamieson]

- Group fight training (hit and run).
- Dodging rocks throwing.
- Running away from flying bullets.
- Using your "spikes ring" in your ground fight.
- Bitting skill.

:D

lol

group fight - this is advanced play not for beginners and when done realistically is no easy task even for the advanced player.

dodging rocks - I think bean bags would be safer and offer the same eye skill

running away from bullets - you show me a guy who can dodge bullets and I'll show you a guy who can lift 100x his body weight. I think the boxer rebellion taught us something in this regards.

spikes ring - well, that's just dirty fighting, probably not allowed in a competitive ebvironment but I hope its good steel, yes it will hurt the person, but the one with the ring has a chance of getting hurt too if the forces are too much.

Biting skill- in the day and age of hepC and hiv and numerous other disease, this is best left out in my opinion.

[Ray Pina]

.
I see a larger point stressed in TMA in regards to life readiness, and preparedness to kill

Do you though? I mean, there is a big difference between standing in a line and fake hitting someone in the throat and mounting someone, even if they are wearing head gear, and literally pounding their head against the ground until the guy cries uncle.

It's the mind set I'm talking about. Without that mindset it is very difficult to end a real altercation. What I'm learning now is that when 2 guys really want to fight you have to get viscious, you have to want to bash that guy good ... otherwise he'll bash you.

In theory a lot of Kung Fu I've seen has lethal material in it, but are they training the mindset? Are they training in a way that it comes out, can be applied?

At a certain level techniques are a dime a dozen, you can learn a lock from a book, etc.

[Fu-Pow]

:

Biting skill- in the day and age of hepC and hiv and numerous other disease, this is best left out in my opinion.

You obviously haven't trained Shaolin-Do :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Sounds like another label to me. Modern, Street, Sport, Traditional. Who cares as long as you're enjoying it?

[PangQuan]

Ray,

Im totally with you on this.

And no most TMA train techniques but not in a fashion that will get them to the point of executing in real life.

What MMA has to offer in terms of training is a great deal of realism. I would like to see more TMA doing this. Not necessarily eye gouging and groin ripping, but the basics at least.

Techniques are a dime a dozen, thats just it, there are soooo many of them out there, that you really have to find a set that works for you and really train it into your brain. Over and over and over so they are second nature. This of course is pretty well common sense.

What I think is kind of lame is that for the majority TMA dont get to fight alot in their schools. This is where friends come in. Of course your not going to go to the extreme of actually trying to rip each other to pieces, but you will be able to go so far as to train against a resisting opponent. You can actually get alot of competition out of a good friend, I mean who wants to get beat by a guy your always hanging with. As well you can shrug off a bloody nose cause you know its all in good training.

[red5angel]

There is a group of people who buys into the idea that unless you can practice something 100%, then are wasting your time. I think that line of thought is crap. I believe you definitely have to have a strong foundation in your understanding of how combat works against an opponent, through sparring or fighting. But since some techniques can't be practiced full throttle, and most, even in the MMA world aren't, you can't write them off entirely. If you're going to take the extreme view that fighting is violent and could turn fatal, then everything else is a watered down imitation. Of course some people get closer then others but don't write off those deadly techniques. If you've got the will and the foundation, you can probably make the more simple techniques work.

[SevenStar]

What I think is kind of lame is that for the majority TMA dont get to fight alot in their schools. This is where friends come in. Of course your not going to go to the extreme of actually trying to rip each other to pieces, but you will be able to go so far as to train against a resisting opponent. You can actually get alot of competition out of a good friend, I mean who wants to get beat by a guy your always hanging with. As well you can shrug off a bloody nose cause you know its all in good training.

I think that's a good start, but at some point in time, you should go at least one step further.

[David Jamieson]

sport is adapted killing. :p

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Regardless of the style, the more times you spar or train with a resisting opponent, the more comfortable you become with the situation.. the more likely you will maintain some composure in a "live" situation.. at some point we argue the liklihood of meeting the top 1% of trained fighters in live conflicts, an unlikely situation.. the best trained fighters i know are less likely to attack someone than most.. though, i must admit a few need little provocation to display their skills.. (Moral: don't provoke).. If you are confronted with a Ken Shamrock or some Cage-Master, start writing checks till they go away (good self-defense).. there is no magic "can of whoop-ass", it's hard work, conditioning, experience, a study of human nature, and a healthy life-style.. Good TMA adds to that by creating an environment where the overall lifestyle is developed with some sense of WuDe.. poor TMA is just sad..

A great quote used by someone in here as their signature line, "better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardener in the war".. or, success is when preparation meets opportunity..

Be well..

[SevenStar]

If a TCMA guys trained his Maio Dao in the woods by chopping down tree branches everyday then I doubt any of your MMA or BJJ guys like to fight him when he holds his Maio Dao in both of his hands.

Not fair? Who is talking about rules? CMA is for killing only.

Do I have one too? If so, I'm game.