MMA or TMA?

[PangQuan]

Lets let it all out. Which one are you? If you train both, pic your favorite one.

By Traditional I dont mean training habits, I mean type of style.

Out of all the training I do, I enjoy the Shaolin the best. Not my only type of training, I just like it most. :D

[MasterKiller]

I am a traditional Long Fist fighter currently training MMA.

[Shaolinlueb]

no MK

your a masterkiller currently debunking for mma. ;)


if you take your off the street mma fighter vs off the street tcma fighter. i will go mma. msot tcma dont know how to use what they learn. simple and plain. and jsut go back to relying on their animal instincts where as mma train to fight everyday. unless your a tcma that trians to fight everyday. then i will say tcma.

[red5angel]

hmmmmm, I'd probably have to go with traditional.

Although I'm ****ed off this poll doesn't have a Red5 option.

[PangQuan]

hmmmmm, I'd probably have to go with traditional.

Although I'm ****ed off this poll doesn't have a Red5 option.

You know, I was gonna put a Red5 option in there then I realized screwing other peoples wives isnt a martial art. :p

someone forgot to vote.

[Chief Fox]

I train in 7 star praying mantis with a few touches of northern shaolin thrown in there. I've been thinking about adding some ground fighting skills in there but right now I just don't have the time and I'm not spending as much time as I would like with my 7 star studies as it is.

[Mikkyou]

I voted as a Traditonal Martial art I enjoy Ninpou taijutsu very much and find it to be a very excellent system however,I am aware of other arts and look into them as well adapt some of their ideas into my training.

[stubbs]

I consider myself a Mixed Martial Artist, but not in the sport sense.
________
Macintosh games (http://macgame.org)

[SevenStar]

mma. :eek:

[Ray Pina]

New style fueled and inspired by traditional Chinese martial arts (Tai Ji, Hsing-I, Ba Gua).

[red5angel]

You know, I was gonna put a Red5 option in there then I realized screwing other peoples wives isnt a martial art. :p

someone forgot to vote.


Apparently you've never hit Rogues sh!t. She's a fighter and a biter.

[DragonzRage]

Started up in a TMA background pretty much all through my adolescence. About the time I graduated from high school I scrapped it for the MMA related arts, and have never looked back. I don't regret all my time spent in TMA training tho. There were some things of value I reaped from it, and I'm glad I committed to martial arts of any form early on. That being said, I can only imagine how much better I would be today if I had boxed or wrestled as a teen instead of doing TMA. My years of dedication and training could've been much more productive. Anywayz, to each his own!

[Fu Man]

I am a traditional martial artist. I study Isshin-ryu Karate and Kodokan Judo. The dojo where I train also offers MMA and, just recently, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu classes. I sometimes spar with members of the dojo under MMA or BJJ rules.

Ted

[SPJ]

Every one is Mixed MA.

There are a lot of Mixed MA in TMA, too. MMA means MT+BJJ.

1. Tong Bei + Shuai Jiao = modern Tong Bei.

2. Shuai Jiao + Ba Gua = Cheng Ting Hua's Ba Gua.

3. Tang Tui + Ba Gua = Yi Fu's Ba Gua.

4. Tang Tui + Shuai Jiao = my first mixed MA in early 70's.

5. Ba Ji + Pi Gua =

6. Mantis + Short fist = 6 harmony Tang Lang

7. 8 elbow methods, abstracts and Mantis = Tai Chi plum flower Tang Lang

8. first emperor of Song summarized all the popular MA's at the time = Tai Tzu.

9. General Yuet Fei summarized all the good stuff from different MA's = Wu Mu Quan to train his soldiers

10. Bruce Lee combined WC, western boxing with fencing steps and many others = Jeet Kune Do

11. General Chen Wang Ting summarized good ideas with different MA's and created Chen Tai Ji.

12. Wang Lang summarized 18 families or Jia's MA's and created mantis or Tang Lang including Tai Tzu and Tong Bei.

13. General Han Tong summarized the MA's popular in the warring states periods and at the time. It is called Tong Bei.
---

So the question is that who is not Mixed MA?

:D

[KnightSabre]

I was originally a tradfitionalist with 4 years of Shotokan and
then 5 plus year of kung fu but then I was introduced to the magic of
BJJ and the simple but effective style of boxing :-).
I've been a harcore MMA for more than 6 years!

[Mr Punch]

TMA.

I study traditional wing chun, traditional western boxing, traditional aikijutsu/-do, traditional B/JJJ and traditional graeco-roman wrestling. Occasionally I do elements of traditional muay thai and traditional kendo.

Any more dumb questions? :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

no MK

your a masterkiller currently debunking for mma. ;). There's nothing to debunk. You get to class, stretch a little, put on gloves, and start working for 90 straight minutes. The proof is in the pudding.

[Ray Pina]

TMA.

I study traditional wing chun, traditional western boxing, traditional aikijutsu/-do, traditional B/JJJ and traditional graeco-roman wrestling. Occasionally I do elements of traditional muay thai and traditional kendo.

Any more dumb questions? :rolleyes:

Good post!

[PangQuan]

Thanks for the posts so far.

Im just trying to get inside peoples heads a little more to see how they view this.

Each person is a little different.

I like to learn.

[red5angel]

TMA.

I study traditional wing chun, traditional western boxing, traditional aikijutsu/-do, traditional B/JJJ and traditional graeco-roman wrestling. Occasionally I do elements of traditional muay thai and traditional kendo.

Any more dumb questions? :rolleyes:


I see mats not taking his anti-cranky pill. I also have to disagree with Ray since I'm sure Mat is smart enogh to figure out how tradtional and modern are divided, atleast on this forum ;) It was a good try though, no really, it was.

[SevenStar]

Every one is Mixed MA.

There are a lot of Mixed MA in TMA, too. MMA means MT+BJJ.

3. Tang Tui + Ba Gua = Yi Fu's Ba Gua.

5. Ba Ji + Pi Gua =

6. Mantis + Short fist = 6 harmony Tang Lang

7. 8 elbow methods, abstracts and Mantis = Tai Chi plum flower Tang Lang

8. first emperor of Song summarized all the popular MA's at the time = Tai Tzu.

9. General Yuet Fei summarized all the good stuff from different MA's = Wu Mu Quan to train his soldiers

10. Bruce Lee combined WC, western boxing with fencing steps and many others = Jeet Kune Do

11. General Chen Wang Ting summarized good ideas with different MA's and created Chen Tai Ji.

12. Wang Lang summarized 18 families or Jia's MA's and created mantis or Tang Lang including Tai Tzu and Tong Bei.

13. General Han Tong summarized the MA's popular in the warring states periods and at the time. It is called Tong Bei.
---

So the question is that who is not Mixed MA?

:D


the term mma as we use it today refers to striking and grappling styles being mixed. When I trained longfist, karate and jun fan, I did not consider myself an mma. Now, with thai boxing and bjj/judo, I do. The general mixing of styles model, as you touched on, was more of bruce lee's jkd model.

[SPJ]

I think I dug a big hole for myself to jump.

Now I have to explain all in the list.

Nah.

Anyway, grappling, throwing, and strikes (punches and kicks) are inherent in many CMA.

1. Tang Tui is mainly kicks but they may start with grappling.

2. Shuai Jiao is mostly grappling and throws but sometime you may elbow or kick shin, too.

3. Ba Ji is from mid to close distance. Pi Gua starts with a long distance. Da Pi Da Qua. Da Kai Da He. Ba Ji and Pi Gua compliment each other. They both start with some grappling and end with throws or strikes.

In short, most CMA start with grappling and end with throws and strikes.

It would seem to be redundant to say they are mixed. Since they are already mixed.

In that sense, all styles of CMA are MMA.

:D

[KnightSabre]

I think we gonna have to refer to "Grappling" as ground fighting from now on
because to many people like the post before this think it means stand up clinch wrestling and so assume that every CMA has it.
MMA is when you train 3 ranges, striking,clinch,ground and most Traditional schools do not train all those ranges!

[Mr Punch]

I also have to disagree with Ray since I'm sure Mat is smart enogh to figure out how tradtional and modern are divided, atleast on this forum ;) I was trying to illustrate how I thought "we" 'd (being the longer standing members of the forum) moved on from the premise that we are training a 'style' as in TMA or MMA, to the idea that it's how you train that counts not what.

Unfortunately, seems I was wrong, as the originator was more into asking how we saw what we were training. Shrug. Sooooorry. Well, not to you Red, of course... :D


I see mats not taking his anti-cranky pill. YOU SAYIN I'M ON DRUGS? WELL ARE YA? MAN I OUGHTA RIP YOU A NEW ONE!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

So when are your death matches booked up till? :)

[Yum Cha]

Are we talking like pedagree vs mutt, or what?

I ask this because lots of traditional styles have both grappling and striking.

[SPJ]

There are 3 technical points.

1. Entry. How to maneuver with hands and steps to gain access to the opponent to start your end move.

2. Neutralization. How to dissolve the opponent's moves and countermoves and goes to 1.

3. End. How to end the fight, Qin Na (grappling and submission), Da Ti (strikes), Shuai Dei (throwing).

In that sense, MMA or BJJ is about entry quickly into snarls on the ground and end fights with arm bar or other submission.

You may argue everything else is only entry. And the end is arm bar submission. You use the floor as an aid. I may use the wall as an aid for submission without both are on the ground. I may have submission standing too without any floor or wall as barrier or holding aides. I may use the rope, piece of cloth, or folding the opponent's arm against his chest, back or the other arm etc.

If you want to say only this style has certain techniques on the ground or against the wall or using a prop including wall and the floor, therefore it is far superior.

The truth is that all the technical categories are there in all styles. They differ in the ways or styles rendering the techniques.

Again, you may end the fight with many ways. You may end the fight with various way of submission including arm bar on the floor or agains the wall or ---

:D

[SPJ]

The term grappling:

If you only think about using the hand to grab, that is only part of it in CMA.

The hand form may be the Tiger, dragon, eagle pinch, or mantis hook, the tile roof palm in Tai Chi, the cow tongue palm in Yi Fu's Ba Gua on and on.

The rotation around the wrist, it is called small Chan or silk reeling or "grappling".

You may also use the forearm and rotation around the elbow, it is called the mid Chan or shaking the long sleeve in Tong Bei.

You may rotate around the shoulder, it is called a big Chan. It is called to break the door open or Lei Meng in Tong Bei.

You may get close and use your chest, rib side and hip etc as part of body grappling mechanism.

In short, you may use any of your body parts, arms and legs to "grapple" the opponent.

The Ba Gua arms and steps are also Chan and grappling the opponent in difficult positon for the opponent to counter. Thus it is called the swimming dragon as the body methods.

Grappling is beyong hand grabs in CMA.

:D

[SPJ]

What if a fighter is very good and quick in strikes and neutralizes all of your entry.

And the fights never go to the floor.

What would be the tactics and strategy then?

:D

[red5angel]

I was trying to illustrate how I thought "we" 'd (being the longer standing members of the forum) moved on from the premise that we are training a 'style' as in TMA or MMA, to the idea that it's how you train that counts not what.

Unfortunately, seems I was wrong, as the originator was more into asking how we saw what we were training. Shrug. Sooooorry. Well, not to you Red, of course... :D

YOU SAYIN I'M ON DRUGS? WELL ARE YA? MAN I OUGHTA RIP YOU A NEW ONE!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

So when are your death matches booked up till? :)


my bad, turns out I'm the one that needs the cranky pills.......

[Reggie1]

I think we gonna have to refer to "Grappling" as ground fighting from now on

Grappling and groundfighting aren't the same thing. IMO, groundfighting=fighting on the ground. In a 1-on-1, typically both fighters would be on the ground as well.

IMO Grappling=Wrestling. Can be standing, can be on the ground. Clinch work, throws, takedowns and groundwork are all incorporated under the 'grappling' umbrella.

[Reggie1]

I think we gonna have to refer to "Grappling" as ground fighting from now on

Grappling and groundfighting aren't the same thing. IMO, groundfighting=fighting on the ground. In a 1-on-1, typically both fighters would be on the ground.

IMO Grappling=Wrestling. Can be standing, can be on the ground. Clinch work, throws, takedowns and groundwork are all incorporated under the 'grappling' umbrella.

[SwaiingDragon]

Effectiveness of TMA depends on your own instruction and discipline....

[SevenStar]

Anyway, grappling, throwing, and strikes (punches and kicks) are inherent in many CMA.



inherent. that word is precisely the problem. People say things like "my style is complete because it has throws in the system" - judo has strikes, but do you really think that a pure judoka is gonna outstrike a pure striker? No. I wouldn't consider those styles mixed any more than I would consider judo as mixed.

[FatherDog]

You may argue everything else is only entry. And the end is arm bar submission. You use the floor as an aid. I may use the wall as an aid for submission without both are on the ground. I may have submission standing too without any floor or wall as barrier or holding aides. I may use the rope, piece of cloth, or folding the opponent's arm against his chest, back or the other arm etc.

If you want to say only this style has certain techniques on the ground or against the wall or using a prop including wall and the floor, therefore it is far superior.

You can argue all kinds of things. The facts remain -

If you never practice against someone who uses takedown "entries", you will never become adept at neutralizing takedown "entries".

If you don't train on the ground, once taken there you will be more or less helpless.

MMA types aren't arguing that one style is superior to another; they are arguing that training standup striking/grappling and ground striking/grappling is superior to training only standup striking/grappling.


What if a fighter is very good and quick in strikes and neutralizes all of your entry.

And the fights never go to the floor.

What would be the tactics and strategy then?

:D

If a fighter never trains takedown "entries" he will never neutralize "all of your entry" when your entries are takedowns. Period.

[SPJ]

7 *:

I cannot argue against your last post. Agreed that no system is complete. If you are good at something, you will have to give away something else. If you are good at throws. You probably would use everything else as entry and quickly land your throws. If you are good at strikes, you probably would look for opening and strike. You will pass on opportunities for throws, even though the opportunities are there. So it comes down to what is your prefered method of ending the fights.

FD is correct about the 3 points in your last post.

;)

[SevenStar]

If you skip the form training then there is no difference between TMA and MMA. The form is the only tool that can bring you to the highest level and that's missing in MMA. The form that I'm talking about here is not like 70 moves long dancing form but single move solo drill form.

I don't know MMA guys train

- Long or short weapon fight.
- Knife or dart throwing.
- Dodging from throwing knife or dart.
- Group fight.

That may be the other difference betwene TMA (used for killing) and MMA (used for sport).

Just don't tell me that when you are swing your 6 feet long Maio-Dao, your are trying to follow some restrict rules and not trying to chop someone's head off. TMA has no rules and everything goes. If you can't win by your hands then try to win by your knife. If you can't win by your knife then try to win by your gun. You don't do sport and you don't fight fair.

the difference between mma and tma is more one of overall training methods, not the lack of forms work. And actually, you could liken shadowboxing to their forms work. Shuai chiao uses technique drills, not actual forms - is it mma because of that? No.

TMA has not rules and anything goes...whatever. Do you train these techniques at full power against an opponent in class? if not, than you just added rules. THEORETICALLY, it has no rules, but for training purposes it does.

Also, do you REALLY think that your avg tma would be a more efficient killer than your avg mma?