Wing Chun Stance-Pigeon Toed or parallel?

[Sihing73]

recently I have entered into a discussion concerning the use of the Pigeon Toed Basic Horse in Wing Chun compared to the Parallel Toed version. As some may know there are different versions of Wing Chun and some use the Pigeon Toed (most popular) while some use the Parallel Toed. I have heard that the Pigeon Toed Stance is the basic while an advanced student can use the Parallel Toed stance. There are numerous photos of Yip Man showing his feet to be parallel. I am not interested in getting into any type of bashing here, I am interested in hearing what the props and cons are for each position. I would hope we can discuss this in a spirit of friendship. (Although I admit I muself have fallen recently and been guilty of allowing my emotions to carry me away). In any event I welcome your input.

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

The pigeon toed stance is used in Wing Chun as well as many other styles to develope a rooted horse and centralize energy in the Tan Tien. In fighting application the feet are in a natural straight position though the inner thighs can still close. This helps with mobility in transition from stance to stance when closing, angling, or circling. The high pigeon toed stance must be developed in unison with the low horse and cat stance in order to have rootedness in the high natural stance. The pigon toed stance is actually the reverse of lotus. WWW.buddhapalm.com (http://WWW.buddhapalm.com)

[OdderMensch]

My Wing Chun stance work sucks /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

this is beacuse in the "goat pinching stance" I use my abduction to pull into the ground. if your feet (at least with my legs) are parralel you cannot full get the abductor prime muscles into the stance. also if my feet are parralel it strains my knees.

I know other schools work the stances diffrently but that is the way of our kwoon.

[Sihing73]

OdderMensch,

When performing with the feet parallel you should draw the knees more forward than together. The goal would seem to be to form a traingle with the apex slightly ahead of the feet. If you draw the knees together and downward then you will cause strain on the knees.

Pigeon toed does seem to be easier to perform properly in the begining.

Sam,
Why would you train one way and fight another? It would seem to make more sense to fight the way you train. Seems to me if you have to hink about it and adjust in order to use the art there is a flaw in training methodology. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I would also like more details as this is an interesting subject. I think Robert Chu has shown with his structure tests and such that one can develope "root" and structure without resorting to other stances. Again, since Wing Chun was designed to be easy and straightforward why complicate it with other things?

Just for the record in WT I was taught to use a pigeon toed stance. In application my feet were still pointed in not parallel. Of course at times both of my feet were pointed in the same direction. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

There are parts of forms which are used for internal development. Within Siu Lin Tao are other techniques which are not so obvious such as kicking, knee checks, and footworks. The positioning of the feet to open the stance is very important. Most stances put pressure on the knees. Adjust the pressure to strengthen tendons and ligaments not damage them. Quibbling about techniques is foolish when understanding concepts will flood you with endless techniques. Fut Sao Wing Chun breaks down "all" it's forms and techniques for fighting, internal, Chin Na, and Ging powers.

[Sihing73]

Sam,

You obviously feel very highly about your system and I am not trying to put your methods down. What i am trying to do is get to some specifics about what is different and why. It is all well and good to make claims or references which support your position, or mine, however where is the substance? Not saying that your method is not good nor what you are saying is correct. But, it is easy to make vague comments concerning various training. Where is the substance that supports such claims? For example you state:
"The positioning of the feet to open the stance is very important. Most stances put pressure on the knees. Adjust the pressure to strengthen tendons and ligaments not damage them"

Fine, lets discuss this in detail. What is it that one needs to do in order to make the adjustments to prevent putting pressure on tendons and ligaments rather than damage them? Can this be done using the Pigeon Toed version or can you do it with feet parallel as well? How many stance variations exist in Fut Sau?

Again, this is not a bashing but an attempt to get to some meat. I can say my system of Wing Chun has internal methods and mental conditioning but if I am unable to explain why that is then my claims do not seem to be as valid. There are many in the Wing Chun world more qualified than I and some are well known. Robert Chu with his approach is probably one of the most well known for incorporating and explaing internal aspects of Wing Chun. In New York there is also Sifu Santos Barbalace as well as Sifu Cama. Both could give different aspects of Fut Sau. I am not interested in politics but in substance.

Peace,

Dave

[Sam]

I am only a student and it would be presumptuous of me to attempt to teach over the internet. If someone is truly interested they can contact my Sifu at www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com) or Si Kung Henry Leung. I can discuss or comment on general concepts. Sihing73 you have strong belief in your Wing Chun which is fine but you cannot force someone to divulge their art by challenging their knowledge. Sometimes when someone refuses to answer does not mean they don't know.
Sam

[Sihing73]

Hi Sam,

I do not want to get into an exchange which serves no purpose. I am not trying to challenge you. It just seems that the purpose of posting and replying to such posts is the exchange of information. If one is not willing to make that exchange, in whatever detail one is capable of, then the posts tend to have little value.

I can respect your postion but I find it a little confusing. I mean you did reply to the post so I figured you had something concrete to offer. If you do not feel comfortable offering more then I guess that will have to do.

In any event I wish you well and perhaps, when I visit New York I will be able to visit your school and speak to you. Just for the record; I have spoken to Sifu Cama via telephone a few times and he was very polite and seemed a very nice person. If he was not in Brooklyn I would doubtless have visited him by now. However, since I am in Philly and usually take public transportation to New York, I am not familiar enough with how the trains/buses run to visit Brooklyn, Yet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam:
Within Siu Lin Tao are other techniques which are not so obvious such as kicking, knee checks, and footworks. [/quote]

The way we do Sil Lim Tao, after the opening of the stance our feet do not move until the stance is closed at the end of the form. Does your Siu Lin Tao contain footwork or are you saying the kicking, knee checks, and footworks are hidden in the openning and closing of the form?

[WT]

In the pigeon toed stance you should be
springloaded to explode forwards,with a huen bo or a kick.
I can't really see how you can do that with your feet paralell.
WT

[Sihing73]

Hi WT,

Not sure I would say you should be "spring loaded" in the pigeon toed stance. My understanding has always been to relax and sink, kind of like sitting in a high chair. As to being able to Huen Bo or kick I would agree that one should be able to do either with relative ease. To perform either move will require a slight transfer of weight so I do not see why having my feet parallel would make it any harder. I just tried it both ways and was able to Huen Bo without any difficulty from either position. the body dynamics are diferent. The Pigeon Toed does seem to present the illusion of being more "spring Loaded" than the parallel version. In this medium it is hard to explain but try doing both versions and let me know what you think.

In the pigeon toed version sink your weight and adduct your knees together and slightly down. In the parallel version sink your weight and try to adduct you knees slightly forward and down. Not sure if I am making this clear but I would be interested in your responses. The difference between the two would be that in the pigeon toed version the feet form the two sides of the triangle with the toes pointing to the apex. In the parellel version the knees form the sides of the triangle and point to the apex. (I know you could argue that the knees work the same in both cases but the feet is what makes the difference and is what I am getting to. Plus the knees in one go down and in while in the toher they go down and forward).

Now to make this even more open for debate, /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif what is the spacing of your feet and how close should your knees be together? I have seen both stances done shoulder width apart and sometimes slighter wider or narrower. I have also seen the knees hold some object to insure proper adduction. Things range from a tennis ball or cassette tape to a small volleyball (boy was that amusing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) After this we can discuss the proper way of opening the stance /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif LOL Lot's of Fun.

Think about why we do things not necessarily how. What I am getting at is, there may be more than one "right" way to do something. And, all ways may not be "right" for all people.

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Not sure I would say you should be "spring loaded" in the pigeon toed stance.

What I mean is if you do it correctly you should feel a strong urge to move forwards.

My understanding has always been to relax and sink, kind of like sitting in a high chair. As to being able to Huen Bo or kick I would agree that one should be able to do either with relative ease. To perform either move will require a slight transfer of weight so I do not see why having my feet parallel would make it any harder. I just tried it both ways and was able to Huen Bo without any difficulty from either position. the body dynamics are diferent. The Pigeon Toed does seem to present the illusion of being more "spring Loaded" than the parallel version. In this medium it is hard to explain but try doing both versions and let me know what you think.

The pigeon toed version still feels more "explosive" to me.
I seem to move forwards faster.

In the pigeon toed version sink your weight and adduct your knees together and slightly down. In the parallel version sink your weight and try to adduct you knees slightly forward and down. Not sure if I am making this clear but I would be interested in your responses. The difference between the two would be that in the pigeon toed version the feet form the two sides of the triangle with the toes pointing to the apex. In the parellel version the knees form the sides of the triangle and point to the apex. (I know you could argue that the knees work the same in both cases but the feet is what makes the difference and is what I am getting to. Plus the knees in one go down and in while in the toher they go down and forward).

So how do you turn from the parallell version?

Now to make this even more open for debate, /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif what is the spacing of your feet and how close should your knees be together? I have seen both stances done shoulder width apart and sometimes slighter wider or narrower.

About shoulder widht,a little outside.
You could check it by doing a 90 degree turn.

I have also seen the knees hold some object to insure proper adduction. Things range from a tennis ball or cassette tape to a small volleyball (boy was that amusing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) After this we can discuss the proper way of opening the stance /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif LOL Lot's of Fun.

How about weight distribution on the legs,turning on the heels or the center of your feet? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WT

[Sihing73]

Hi WT,

"What I mean is if you do it correctly you should feel a strong urge to move forwards."
"The pigeon toed version still feels more "explosive" to me.
I seem to move forwards faster."

Okay, I can go along with this although it seems to work better if your weight is more towards the ball for forward feeling. Again, I was taught to kind of sit and relax to sink down so I try not to have that forward feeling unless I am actually moving forward, or intending to. (DM)

"So how do you turn from the parallell version?"

You can turn much the same way as the pigeon toed version. Only difference is you would need to move both feet to reference correctly. The Pigeon toed version would allow you to only need to move one foot. Still, to be fair most times when using the Parallel versions I would opt for a slight step rather than a turn. Most times the step is slightly at an angle. Let me try to be clear on this, I am talking about a very subtle movement not a large step. Oftentimes I am able to apply it and my opponent does not even realize i have moved or changed my reference to his center. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Still I need a lot more practice in this method to get as good as some I have seen. (DM)

"About shoulder widht,a little outside.
You could check it by doing a 90 degree turn"

I can agree with this I think about shoulder width is common. The method of opening the stance I was taught for the Pigeon toed version was to put both feet together and trun the toes out then rotate my heels out on my toes, point my toes in all the while sinking my weight.
The method of opening when using the Parallel version is to start with both feet together and then Huen each leg to get the proper spacing and sink with the toes pointed straight ahead. (DM)

"How about weight distribution on the legs,turning on the heels or the center of your feet? "

While in the YJKM weight distribution has to be 50/50 it is only when you turn or step that the weighting would change. If you perform the basic horse with any thing other than 50/50 you will find yourself off balance and will also cause some alignment problems. As to turning: depends on the circumstance and intent:
1) Turning on the heels-allows you to maintain distance from an opponents force and retain a position of relative safety. This is best when used against a very powerful opponent whom you are unsure of your ability to handle.
2) Turning on the balls-Allows you to move in closer to an opponent and apply more pressure to him. This is a more aggressive method and is used when you wish to dominate and charge your opponent.
3) Weight Centered Turning-This is a nuetral method and also a very common and safe response. It allows you to maintain your stability and structure without the need to shift or readjust your position. I think most Wing Chun people would use this method. many refer to the K-1 point in the foot as the ideal place for weight/shifting to be. (DM)

Keep it up as I am enjoying this coversation. Makes me think about things and I am learning from thinking /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Keep in mind that with Wing Chun it is your opponenet who determines your reaction. You must respond to what is given, if you have to think about it then you need more practice. Ouch my head is starting to hurt. LOL (DM)

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

Sihing, I feel more comfortable in the parallel stance but then again that's the way we practice. Haven't you trained under both sets of footwork?

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sihing73:
As to turning: depends on the circumstance and intent:
1) Turning on the heels-allows you to maintain distance from an opponents force and retain a position of relative safety. This is best when used against a very powerful opponent whom you are unsure of your ability to handle.
2) Turning on the balls-Allows you to move in closer to an opponent and apply more pressure to him. This is a more aggressive method and is used when you wish to dominate and charge your opponent.[/quote]

I must be missing something here 'cause this sounds backwards. If you look at the lower leg as you pivot from left to right and vise versa on the balls of the feet, you will notice that they move away from the direction of the turn. Pivotting on the heals, the lower legs move in the direction of the pivot. Therefore, pivotting on the heals reduces the power of a punch by moving away and pivtting on the ball increases the power by moving with the punch with full body unity.

[WT]

Dave,

I have done chi sao with a guy who turned on the heels.Because he was turning on the central line he was alwas redirecting my attacks,making it very easy to counter.
A more active and harder style.
Turning to evade the opponents attack makes more sense to me.
WT

[Sihing73]

Flavour54,

I have been fortunate enough to train in both sets of footwork. However, I have trained most of my time in the Pigeon Toed Version and my time in the toher is limited. Thus my allusion to still having much to learn /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Highlander,

Try turning both ways and tell me if you notice what I am getting at. When you turn on the heels your body actually is further from the opponent. Thus increaseing distance and perhaps reducing striking power. Turning on the Ballss will bring you closer to the opponent and you can lean slighlty in and thus possbily increase power in your strikes. Keep in mind that I am talking about the relative position of your body during these movements. Also, don't think that you can't produce power from a back weighted stance when you are further away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WT,

Turning on the heels is a more passive response. By keepiong distance one tries to have an envelope of safety. Still, different storkes for different folks and situations. I personaly like to turn on center or side step. Still, turning on the heels can be useful for drawing an opponent in /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Using the words active and passive can really
confuse things. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Turning as I see it should be passive,that is the opponents force turns you.
On the other hand your response to an attack should not be passive,that would be a mistake.
The turn should produce a counter attack.

What I meant with active was that when this
guy turned on his heels with,lets say a bong sao,he also started to redirect my punch.

There would be something wrong with my chi sao if I didn't react to this. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

I agree with what you have posted. Turning should be as a result of the
opponents force not your own choice. Also, you should always attack. Still,
turning on the heels is a method used when one does not want to make an
aggressive counter and wishes to maintain some degree of distance. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This
is what I meant when I said it was a passive method. Turning on the balls
will be more aggressive as you are going into the opponent.

If during Chi Sau your opponents Bong Sau with a Turn redirects your punch,
or whatever, then it is possible he is not doing Bong Correctly. Though
there are times you would apply force with a Bong it is most often applied
as a passive technique which changes immediately into another attacking
method. Bong should form a shape with a 30' bend of the arm. If you are redirected as a result of Bong then it should be as a result of the structure not because force is being applied with the Bong Sau. Still, there are a lot of ways to apply the concepts from each
technique. I have seen Taun used as an attack rather than as a method of
receiving the energy. There is a good article on Renes Web Site rite now
which you may wish to look at. Go to:
www.wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com)
and read the current feature. It talks about the differing ways one can
apply Wing Chun. At least it is something to read /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[WT]

Dave,

Have you heard the expression "monkey looking in the mirror" tan sao? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

Can't say that I have ever come across this saying/statement. Should I consider myself a "monkeys uncle"? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[flavour54]

I played with the pidgeon toed stance and I feel it made me a little less free when it came to range and freedom of movement of arms and stomps and front kicks off the front legs.But then again I am not a seasoned user of the pidgeon toed stance.Perhaps if you train it from day one it is a different story. And as to pivoting we always step to avoid pivoting on an unfamiliar surface where a street fight is about to commence. I like to keep my feet a little wider than shoulder width and thighs almost parallel
Just as a point of interest who here fights in a perpetual tee stance with 60 percent of their weight on the rear leg?

------------------
"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-10-2000).]

[WT]

Dave,

It's what Kernspecht calls the WC tan sao,
where if you put a mirror in your palm you would see yourself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
As opposed to the WT tan sao with the palm up.

WT

[Sihing73]

WT,

The "shape" for Taun may have changed slightly since I was involved. I remember we performed it with the Hand/Palm more level. In which case holding a mirror would not show me myself but would reflect what was above me. However, strictly speaking Taun is formed by rotating the Bong Downward with the elbow remaining in roughly the same position. This would result in the palm being more in line with your saying.

Nice to think about /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

when beggining the p t stance is taught to teach the student angles of attack & defence
& also to help strengthen the ligaments & tendons in the knees & ankles(this good to have when fighting on uneven surfaces) as the student reaches biu jee they in all honesty no longer have to stand like this(although it is still recomended)as there stance should be very strong by this stage.
always remember this is only a training stance devised to optimise your precious training time by allowing u to train what in a fight would be either of your rear legs
which generally will be carrying a larger % of your weight,to stand in front of your opponent & offer your groin would be madness
when moving 1 leg foward into a fighting stance the front leg should be turned in slightly as 2 cover the gion,the knees should be slightly bent & never straighten
& most importantly the waist should be locked foward 4 stability & power(it,s also good 4 helping with that adrenaline or eximent u feel when your about to have some fun)
wow......sorry if i got carried away there or if anyones views may differ but that's just my take on things......hope i've been some help or even just offered something someone may find helpful

[Phil Redmond]

Someone mentioned turning from the horse on the balls of the feet or the heels. In my lineage you don't turn with the horse. You step maybe, but no turn. Also, "Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma" translates in Cantonese as "Character two pinching goat stance/horse". The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like character eight in Chinese. Should it be called, Baat Jee Kim Yang Ma? I can't wait for the contoversy on this one. By the way, I've studied both styles including Henry Leung's. As a matter of fact I was a sifu under Henry Leung back in the day.
Paz

[edward]

sh, 2 reasons why pigeon toed is done in the beginning....

1) by being in pigeon toed stance, its easier to turn or shift

2) not being in pigeon toed stance, you no longer create a pyramid base structure

as for yipman breaking this rule, this is a case where if you master WC, you can break the rules....his adjustment is so fast and timely its not necessary for him to keep it pigeoned toe...

not that i've master the art, but i can get away with not being in pigeon toed when i chi sao and still adjust at the same rate if i were....

[mun hung]

The first thing I would like to say is that shifting on the heels keeps your legs in the same position as they were - only your body positioning changes. If you had no feet and had only stumps in place of your heels, would'nt your legs still be in the same place after the shift? That's what I thought!

Actually, shifting on the balls of your feet move your whole body away and is not very stable at all. Try taking a punch (a real one) while you're shifting on the balls of your feet. You will find you are off balance and unstable because you are not rooted at all.

When you shift on your heels you are always rooted to the ground and more stable meaning you can generate more power from the ground. Make sense?

Just a few questions:

Do any of you guys feel that the power of the horse is from the ground?

Have you ever felt the power of a punch coming from your heels?

Have you ever intercepted a heavy blow and felt the power being absorbed into the ground by your horse?

Do you feel your heels in the ground during Siu Nim Tau or Chi sau?

If not - then you definitely don't know what I'm talking about. ;)

Last question - when you turn your horse to face an opponent from the side - are both your feet still pointed inward towards each other? If so, why?

I hope I have'nt offended anyone. This of course, is just my opinion.

;)

[WCFish]

I think many of you are missing the point of the pigeon toed stance. e.g. when you do a bong sau the important thing is where your elbow is, not so much where your hand is, although the hand postion needs to be good too. The same goes for the basic stance, your feet are turned in to create the correct alignment at the hips! It is all to do with anatomical positioning of the hips, pelvis and spine. After all it is the stance which is the strength of Ving Tsun.
Some people have very limited internal rotation of the hips and hence will find it near impossible to get their feet more than slightly pigeon toed. This doesn,t mean that their hips aren't in the correct position however

[reneritchie]

In my experience, if the weight begins on the heels, when pressure is introduced, it is easier to force it back beyond that and then stability is reduced. If, on the other hand, weight is kept around K1 (bubbling spring), when pressure is introduced, the heel is still there as a buffer.

Rgds,

RR

[kungfu cowboy]

Yeah, we are also taught to keep weight over bubbling wells. Works good for me! (But I wear size 13's, so I might have a mechanical advantage ;) )

[Jeff Brown]

My parents always said, "Don't do as I do, do as I say." I think that advice is applicable here too. The Masters do what they do because they can already do the other stuff -- it's called progression.

[Braden]

Just stumbled on this discussion; though I'm a bagua guy, not a wing chunner.

We use pigeontoed-stance alot in our bagua. In fact, the only time we use straight horse (aside from some qigongs) is to sink and solidify for some throws over the leg.

The strength of the pigeontoed-stance as opposed to straight horse, I find, is in using energy during movement, rather than while being firmly planted. Although, if you are standing at 50-50 weighting, I find this greatly reduces the potential of this stance. This is something we never do, and our footwork may also be different, so perhaps my experiences are different than yours. By angling your toes in such a manner when you move, you set up a coiling energy throughout your body that helps link it through circular movement for energy usage. This is good not just for issuing energy, but also for recieving it in whole-body yielding movements. Technique-wise, we also use this stance for trapping techniques with the legs, as well as sweeps.

As far as turning goes, if you are rooted in the formal sense, you should be turning your foot around a point just a bit forward from the heel. But again, I'm not sure how much wing chun focuses on this.

[dzu]

Here's my quick take on Parallel vs Pigeon Toed:

Most people walk with their hips open and their feet turned outward slightly. This is so the leg can swing through the entire range of motion when stepping to cover a lot of distance. Most people are relatively inflexible when beginning WC training, especially in the hip, pelvis, and ankle region. The slight pigeon toe YJKYM can correct the muscle imbalance by closing the hips and stretching out the hip flexors and muscles in the pelvic region to restore a balance.

The knee is designed to bend in the same direction as the feet and toes. Clamping too much inward rather than forward is BAD and can lead to knee problems later on. From a functional standpoint, the legs get their drive when the feet, knees, and pelvis are pointed in the same direction. Too much pigeon toe will close the hips and prevent the Dan Tien from aligning with the rest of the body properly. Too much knee clamping inwards will move the knee out of alignment with the feet and pelvis.

Parallel feet open up the pelvis for better movement, but the danger lies in having too wide a stance and a lack of stability when sinking. The ankles can become a weakpoint because they are not in line with the knee and pelvis. The feet should be planted firmly at the K1/Bubbling well so that the largest area of the foot is in contact with the ground and the ankles are compressed properly.

There are pros and cons to both, but if you don't check it with pressure from a partner, you can't tell if you'r horse is right for your body type and flexbility level.

Dzu

[wingchunalex]

i try to do yee jee kim yueng ma with my toes in, but because i have mild cerebral palsy, i cant alway do that depending on the shoes i am wearing. what i find to be more important is the pulling up of the hips and sitting back into your stance and pulling the knees together. i don't feel much difference between when i have my toes in or paralelle.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[fei_jai]

I have always been taught to use the pigeon toed stance, never the parallel stance.

But to throw some light onto this discussion, this is an excercise we sometimes do in class.

Firstly, in your pigeon toed stance, with your arms out in their angles (ala double palm strike).
Have a partner slowly apply force into your arms, and see how much you can absorb.
Now turn your feet parallel, and do the same.
And then turn your feet out, and try the same again.

I have found that I can absorb the most amount of force with the pigeon toed stance.

Our theory is that by pointing the toes into the centre, we can focus our force more into our opponents centre. The apex of the triangle that the feet creates should be at the extension of the punch.

As to pivoting/turning, I have initially been taught to pivot through the centre of the foot. As I have progressed, there has been less emphasis on the feet and more on using the body to turn.

Kicking from the pigeon toed stance. I believe that if you properly focus your force from the knees up into your opponent's centre, then it is very easy, and quick to launch a kick from the pigeon toed stance.

Dave

[Roy D. Anthony]

If you are in pidgeon toe stance with parallel feet, and you pull your knees in, you help your opponent in finding a weakness, ie. breaking your Knees.
Also can anyone tell me what shape are the legs of a rocking chair?

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Flying Kid (Fei Jai), you mentioned an exercise where someone stands pigeon toed and can absorb more force than when in a parallel stance. That makes sense. It also makes sense that if someone sits in a 'sei ping dai ma' (low horse), they can laterally, resist, or absorb a great amount of force also. I don't think that either of these tests have anything to do with the dynamics of fighting. I don't mean to dispute you in any way. You know what opinions are like...grin. What really matters in a street fight is the 'win'.
Some say a kick should be thrown with your supporting foot planted firmly on the ground for stability. Sound advice. But,if you knock someone out while on the balls of your supporting foot, is the knockout still valid?
I'm still just a student searching for truths.

PR

[fei_jai]

I wasn't talking about dynamics of fighting.
I was merely contributing to the toes in versus parallel in the Wing Chun stance.

In our school, we have only one stance, so I wouldn't know anything about the low horse stance.
The exercise I described is just an illustration at why we have our toes inwards, as opposed to parallel.

However, in mentioning fighting dynamics, I believe that our power is generated from the stance and the ability to absorb someone's force/bodyweight, then use it against them, gives us the advantage in a fight. If we ignore all these, and just go in for the 'win', why bother learning these things at all?

But.... that's just my opinion ;)

BTW, it's Fat Boy ;)

[Rill]

We use the pigeon-toed stance as a training stance for use during exercises where we won't be moving around such as SLT and single chi sao. Feet are roughly shoulder width apart, you can get to the actual foot positioning by beginning with your feet together, then spreading your toes outwards, then shifting your heels outwards from there, to end up in a pigeon toe position. i.e

|| -> / -> /

This is of course simply how we do it, and there are other ways to get there. As someone else mentioned, you form an equilateral triangle with the centre being very much like a pole that drives through your head, down through your body and exits through your groin. Your knees should be almost directly above your toes resting forwards (not inwards), and your weight is on your quads, not your knees - otherwise you'll get the shakes after standing like this for a while.

Weight distribution should be 50/50, with your weight centrally located on your feet - not on the heels or balls, which results in a windscreen wiper effect when you turn/pivot, and doesn't leave you as stable as if you are centrally rooted. Besides which, if you turn/pivot on the heels or balls, you don't generate as much power as you would when you are weighted on the centre of your feet. You should sink as much as you need to do develop a low centre of gravity. It's really going to depend on how tall you are, your upper:lower body height ratio, things like that. If you're pushed, and your top half sways back but your bottom half stays still, you're not properly rooted.

For actual fighting stances, or exercises where we move around, we use the parallel stance. You'll note that if you stand in pigeon toed stance and pivot left or right (weight centrally located) then your feet will end up parallel anyway. Your lead foot should probably be turned in slightly to guard your groin. Same goes for shifting forwards and backwards - feet are parallel, lead foot perhaps turned inwards.

mun hung - I can answer yes to all your questions, but I weight centrally, rather than on the heels. It may simply be a matter of power generation that is the difference between how we stand. After all, we have feet to help keep us balanced, we should probably use them to their full advantage, rather than sit on our heels and act like we only have stumps :)

[mun hung]

What I meant was to "feel" your root thru your heels into the ground. Not put all your weight down on your heels. That would be wrong.

The example that I gave with the stumps was to explain the shift and how shifting on the heels leave your legs in the same place and not somewhere else. Hope this helps.

[Rill]

Oh. Right then. Well in that case I agree with you 100% :)

[Jeff Brown]

IMO, heels are good for starting to learn/teach shifting but afterward the focus should move to the centre of the foot. adds more stability and provides a quicker option for using the front of the foot to spring forward. if the energy is all at the heel, it will take longer to move forward.

any thoughts on that?
:eek:

[origenx]

Could the pigeon-toed posture have been adopted possibly to offer some degree of groin protection?

[Roy D. Anthony]

Exactly ! Lesson Over! :)

[Phil Redmond]

My bad Fei Jai. Fei can also mean fly/flying.
The pole form has more than one stance. The low horse I was refering to is one of them. The stances in the weapons forms can also be transposed to empty hands.

PR

[Phil Redmond]

The Hidden Power of Siu Nim Tau

My master Yip Man first started teaching Ving Tsun in Hong Kong at the
Restaurant Worker's Union Association. At the time I was the secretary of the
association, so Master Yip and I had many opportunities to be together.
Before I became interested in Ving Tsun, I often overheard Master Yip
explaining his Ving Tsun theories in his classes. Gradually he sparked my
interest in the art. It so happened that I had great interest in physics and
mechanics; I enjoyed his theories on body structure and power development
methods very much. Through my careful analysis, I was convinced that Master
Yip's art was flawless and very advanced. Finally, I decided to follow Master
Yip and became his student.
Like every beginner in class, I started my journey with Siu Nim Tau , even
though I had already familiarized myself with the form as an observer. It
took me little effort to completely learn the basic movements. I then began
to wonder about the essence of the form, besides the hand movements. I went
to Master Yip and inquired about the meaning of Siu Nim Tau, especially the
non-combative tone in the name. Master Yip replied: "This is about Lop Nim --
to establish an idea in the mind". I am sure most of my peers have also heard
about this term. Master Yip also added that it required prolonged practice of
this form to truly master the essence of lop nim.

This hidden meaning of lop nim really caught my interest. I spent much time
analyzing its nature, but could still not grasp the concept. Therefore I
decided to drop all my thoughts and simply practiced Siu Nim Tau whenever I
could, day and night. After a long time, I began to see the connection
between lop nim and the form. I suddenly felt great joy in my Ving Tsun
training, which fueled my interest in the art further. I became obsessed with
the art. Gradually I discovered some powerful but hidden forces within each
Siu Nim Tau movement. All the movements are indeed able to deliver
indestructible power, yet they look very soft and graceful. At that moment,
the concept of lop nim became extremely enlightening and inspiring to me. I
finally understood the reason behind it.

I summarize this hidden power as a kind of nim lik (the force of an idea; or
mind/intent force, where nim is the same idea/intent as in nim tau ). In
essence, Siu Nim Tau has two major points: nim lik and "structure".

1. Nim Lik (force of idea/intent): it stabilizes all Ving Tsun movements to
form a springy and dynamic combination of body structures. It makes Ving Tsun
body structure able to sustain great pressure and produce rebound energy.
Although there are common terms such as nim lik, qigong, noigong or
supernatural abilities that are being perceived as some kind of unusual
power, here I would only illustrate the concept behind nim lik (force of
idea/intent). Nim lik is the power of a highly focused mind. It helps one
bring forth chi flow into every part of the body. Everyone should have this
kind of power. However, without training, it is very difficult to focus
thoughts. Siu Nim Tau is a great tool to invoke mind focus power. If properly
practiced, one can deliver this kind of power at will in every instance. The
mind can stay focused even when the structure is adjusting or moving at high
speed. So to achieve nim lik is the goal of Siu Nim Tau.

Let's look at a simple example: if a healthy person falls down from a 6 - 7
feet tall platform unprepared, although he/she lands with both feet, he/she
is still likely to injury him/herself. However, if the person is mentally
prepared for the fall, his/her feet will automatically recoil and absorb the
impact. Also, he/she can only have this reflex if his/her feet are relax.
This is an unique attribute of human muscle in its relax state. The springy
force on the feet that help the person land safely is a direct result of
relax muscles and nim lik.

note: according to contemporary scientific findings; when human muscles are
in relax state and are moving at steady speed, they can sustain greater
pressure than when they are tensed up (using force). It is so amazing that
our Ving Tsun ancestor Ng Mui was able to make use of this scientific method
to design our Siu Nim Tau hundreds of years ago

2. Structure: Yee Gee Kim Yang Ma allows one to project all energy forward
towards the target. Tei Gong (pulling up of the muscle around the anus area)
helps unite body and stance. It also helps relax the leg muscles while being
in the stance; thus the whole body reaches a highly alert and ready state.
These are the necessary conditions to produce nim lik and must be maintained
firmly. The core techniques of Siu Nim Tau -- Tan / Bong / Fook -- are
indeed subtle uses of body mechanics. These three techniques take the shape
of arcs or bows. As we extend the arc shape further, Tan / Bong / Fook become
hemispheres. As we all know, an arc or spherical-shaped object can sustain
strong impact. It can also transfer or deflect energy dynamically when
spinning. A wheel can accelerate faster than objects of other shapes (e.g.
square, triangle). Each movement in Siu Nim Tau, inspired by this efficient
arc-like structure, and when combined with nim lik, becomes extremely
powerful defensive and offensive techniques. In addition, practitioners must
not employ brute muscle strength. Siu Nim Tau training should never be
tiring. To be proficient in this foundation, all movements should be done
with the mind rather than strength.

Many Ving Tsun practitioners like to impose their techniques into frozen and
static postures. Many believe that Bong Sau should be done at certain height
or angle, or criticize others for not complying to their artificial
standards. Some may call this style traditionalist; that style reformist; and
on and on. In fact, movements in Siu Nim Tau are not named as if they were
static postures. For example, when rolling up Tan Sau into Bong Sau, it is
the course of this rolling movement that makes up the Bong Sau technique; the
function of Bong Sau exists in its circular motion. Similarly, all other
techniques in Siu Nim Tau employ circular movements in various directions.

It is a popular belief that Bong Sau is a passive technique: practitioners
only use Bong Sau to deflect incoming forces. This would apply to the
scenario where a statically posted Bong Sau is being used to block attacks.
However, this explanation lacks an understanding of Bong Sau. In my
experience, Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a
very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature.

Finally, I suggest that all fellow Ving Tsun practitioners look carefully
into each technique of Siu Nim Tau. Discover the subtle circular movements in
each of them. Practice with mind focus and steady speed. Use the mind to
command each technique rather than using muscle tension. I am sure you will
gradually find great joy and satisfaction in your Siu Nim Tau training!



Tsui Sheung Tin


* this article is a translation by David YY Lee and Steve Chow, the original
article was published in "Grandmaster Yip Man Centenary Birth".

[Sihing73]

Hi Phil,

Nice to see you here and welcome. As always I enjoy reading your posts. I can see you scratching you head right now wondering if you know me and if so from where :confused:

I look forward to reading more from you. BTW, you will find some old friends here in Rene, Dzu and Kathy Jo.

Peace,

Dave

[Jeff Brown]

:rolleyes:

[dzu]

I disagree that clamping the knees was designed to protect the groin. Extreme pigeon toeing may prevent a foot from fitting up in between the knees, but IMHO the foot placement will then be too close and the horse to narrow. This results in a less than optimal structure for transferring force to and from the ground. The groin is just as much of a target as the knees, throat, sternum, etc. so why sacrifice your ability to move, root, and generate power for the sake of one target? I'd rather rely upon my sensitivity and structure to keep the opponent off balance and disrupt his kick attempts.

Many people seem to fixate on the position of the toes and feet, when it's really the pelvis alignment with the rest of the body that's important. The fact is that the more pigeon toed you become, the more the pelvis is unable to align forward properly through its full range of motion.

You can root with your feet turned out because the pelvis can move freely. However, if the feet are turned too far out, then there is not much drive from the legs when stepping. The key is to find a FUNCTIONAL balance for your own body type and not because everyone else tells you to do it a certain way.

To test your horse (any horse) and ability to root, have a partner apply some slow but STEADILY increasing pressure to your sternum. If you begin to rock back or lose your balance, then your alignment for that particular force needs to be adjusted to compensate. If you hold a static, fixed horse, you won't be able to handle much pressure.

Dzu

[fei_jai]

ahh.... yes, I have seen pictures of the low horse in the pole form.....

but as I am just only starting to learn Chum Kiu, I'm just worrying about getting the wing chun stance correct first. Weapons are still far off in the distant horizon, and then some.

Dave.

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Sihing73.
I was a little leary at first about becoming a member of this forum. These forums can sometimes chew you up and spit you out viciously. Since moving to Detroit, I haven't met many WC people, (there were so many WC guys/gals in NY that I guess I got spoiled...grin). So this forum sort of gives me a connection to people who love what I love. I just hope we can stay civil with each other like the members on the WC mailist. Just because I like strawberry and some one else likes vainilla doesn't mean that we can't agree to disagree and be friends. Hi to everyone.

World peace,
Phil

[anerlich]

I also doubt that the knee-clamping in SLT stance is designed to protect the groin. There are easier and better ways, e.g. standing with one foot forward, foot placement to block the opponent's feet, etc. I concede this is not a bad stance for close fighting, similar to the sanchin stance, but I'd rather check the leg with my shin than try and catch it between my thighs.

Mine is a lineage which uses the "pidgeon toed stance with feet parallel" (a contradiction in terms, BTW). It is used to develop leg and hip strength and structure, not to fight with.

I would need to be convinced that the internal rotation of the femur leads to "correct" alignment of the hips and pelvis. If the hips, how does internal rotation assist anything? if the pelvis, are you talking alignment with the spine or the actual hip joint (already covered by "Hips"?

The internal rotation of the hips may assist in developing flexibility to increase internal rotation, though this is hardly the most efficient way. Nor is it so for ankle flexibility.

I'm not sure it is possible to kick effectively with the femur or foot rotated internally, or straight for that matter. Most kicks require an external rotation of the supporting foot to allow the hip to come through. nor do I think you can drive strongly forward with your foot turned in - your heel, and toe both need to be aligned with the direction of travel to be able to engage the calf muscles.

I don't knock either stance having trained with good teachers using the two approaches. But neither used it for fighting, other than as an occasional transitional stance.

[Nat from UK]

We train pigeon toed, however when i Chi Sau and react to oncoming force or press forward my feet normally end up more parrallel.

Two possible reasons
- i need more training
- parrallel feet feel more mobile and natural.

FWIW i hope its the first.

Nat from UK

[WCFish]

I like this topic! There hasn't been any slanging matches. Abman makes a very good point by saying he needs to be convinced as to why internal rotation of the femur etc. helps the stance. It is important to remember that the basic stance is just a training stance. As dzu points out it helps align areas of the body so that they can be used efficiently, but it is not for moving. Sure you can practice moving from it into other stances, but to try and move from it and remain in it is silly.
To answer Abman's question the reason why internal rotation of the femur helps make the hips more stable is that it aligns the femural head and the acetabulum (the pelvic articulation) in such a way that it creates the best contact. Look up a anatomy text and you will see that nomally that hip and pelvis aren't aligned very well. However internal rotation alone is not enough, there must also be posterior tilt of the pelvis to tighten ligaments that hold the femur and pelvis together, as well as some knee bending and abduction of the legs. Straightening of the upper body also allows the muscles of the back work more efficiently.
If you don't believe me check out some text books.
LO :)

[fei_jai]

I disagree that the stance is just for training.
If so, why is there so much emphasis on it in the first form? why do we use this stance in chi sao??

As to moving in this stance, why can't you move in this stance? when you're moving, do you move with your feet or your body?

In my limited experience, it is not hard to move from this stance, provided that you are in it correctly. Also when moving, don't think about stepping, just move the body and the feet will follow.

If this stance is for training purposes only, what is it training? Is it to strengthen the ligaments and muscles in the leg? If so, why not use the low horse stance like Hung Gar?? If we're using this stance to train force absorbtion/generation, why not use it in application rather than forsaking it for another stance?? Or even, use whatever stance you use to train power generation/absorbtion??

How much time do you spend in this stance, and what are you getting out of it, if you're never going to use it?

[Phil Redmond]

I'd still like some help with this question.

"Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma" translates in Cantonese as "Character two pinching goat stance/horse". The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like the character eight in Chinese. Should it be called, Baat Jee Kim Yang Ma? (No disrespect to any linage intended).

World Peace,
PR

[This message was edited by P Redmond on 09-30-01 at 12:06 AM.]

[Phil Redmond]

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is Cantonese for Character Two Pinching Goat Horse.
(Bad grammar on last post).
Paz,
PR

[Jeff Brown]

The Chinese for "2" is also a 12-stroke character composed of two horizontal lines beneath a crossed lance/sword combo, and a shell beneath that.

Or, for grammar, it can be an 8-stroke to connote pairing (textually, of people, but this need not be so!)

You can insist on it referring to people by adding another 2 strokes (a man!)

I really hope this in depth voyage into the Chinese character for 2 has inproved your Wing Chun.

:rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Tsui Sheung Tin wrote,
"Structure: Yee Gee Kim Yang Ma allows one to project all energy forward
towards the target. Tei Gong (pulling up of the muscle around the anus area)
helps unite body and stance. It also helps relax the leg muscles while being
in the stance; thus the whole body reaches a highly alert and ready state)".

I train SLT with my knees pointing towards the apex of a triangle, forward energy. Using Faat Lik. Not pinching inward. If you're advocating the pigeon-toed stance, I can't be convinced, period. Many street/club fights (I was a bouncer) have shown me what works and what doesn't. BTW, Meng Shou, my WC is constantly improving. WC is my life, I train diligently, and thanks for your concern.

World Peace,
PR

[Jeff Brown]

Hey, why do you think that some things in Wing Chun work while others don't? Just curious.

[hunt1]

Everything in WC works if you(gerneral you not specific)understand how to use it.

[dzu]

Perhaps the system being taught is based upon unsound theories rather than proven concepts.

The instructor may have a good system, but not be able to teach it to the student. Some can't relate the material so the student understands, there could be a language issue, or maybe the teacher doesn't understand the system.

The student may not train hard or devote time and energy into learning the system. Some people just want a kickbox-aerobics atmosphere rather thana fighting art.

Sometimes, sh*t happens, you have a bad day, and you make a mistake. Othertimes, the guy is just better than you.

Dzu

[dzu]

No. Do you have anything else meaningful to contribute or are you here to just stir up trouble?

Dzu

[Phil Redmond]

Firstly I would like apologize, Meng Shuo for spelling your name wrong. Anyway, I looked at my copy of the "Thousand Character Classic" and saw another character for the number two. It looks similar to the character "Wu" (war) from what I can see. It's in really small print so I can't tell. Is that the character you were refering to?
Just goes to show that I'm never too smart, or too old to learn.

PR

[Jeff Brown]

That's right, PR -- the part that makes it look like "military" is the lance/sword cross.

that particular "2" is actually used in financial transactions, like on cheques, for example, to avoid doctoring (if two horizontal bars means "2" then a tricky person could simply add another one on the bottom and convert your cheque for 2,000 to 3,000!)

my point, however, is not to be lured into discussions of Chinese characters. can you learn western boxing by analyzing English words' origins? no. I wasn't really identifying you in this, PR, there are worse offenders out here. I have my suspicions about why people do this but I don't feel like going into those speculations right now.

[kj]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Yee Jee Kim Yang Ma" translates in Cantonese as "Character two pinching goat stance/horse". The character for two in Chinese is two parallel lines either perpendicular (old style), or horizontal (modern Chinese). The pigeon toed stance looks more like the character eight in Chinese. [/quote]

In Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma, a character two can be observed if tracing a first line from toe-to-toe and a second line heel-to-heel. Alternatively, the character can be observed at the imaginary lines from knee-to-knee and foot-to-foot. As with so many things, what we see may depend on our focus. :)

[WCFish]

Hi fei jai,
I think you misunderstand how the basic stance is used for training, it is not only for leg and ligament strengthening. It is also for your posture. As far as moving about in it goes, you won't fair too well against people who don't. Its fine to start in it, as we do in chi sau, but when you step you should be changing into the fighting stance.
Do you train at Jim Fung's academy? Since your also in Sydney, maybe I could come and train with your guys and see if we are actually talking about the same things, but in different ways. That seems to happen alot in wing chun. Anyway, enjoy your training.
:)

[Jeff Brown]

Is it, "I have two eyes," or "I have CHARACTER TWO eyes"? Does the shape of the character two add any meaning here or am I stretching here?

[fei_jai]

Hi Fish, thanks for replying.

It's not that I misunderstand the usage of the stance for training. I myself believe that this stance is probably one of the most import aspects of Wing Chun. I am being taught to always use this stance, so in essence this is my fighting stance.

However, I believe that it is the case where most of the people here regard this stance as training only, and have other stances to use for fighting. If you use another fighting stance, why even bother with the basic Wing Chun stance? Sure, it strengthens the legs and ligaments, and also posture, but couldn't these attributes be trained using your fighting stance? How important do you think the basic stance is?

I'm just trying to understand if the stance is something you would not actively use, then, why still use it for training when you could use your fighting stance. If your fighting stance is what you would always use, wouldn't it make sense to train in this stance?

Yes, I train at Jim Fung's Academy. Feel free to drop into our head office in the city at any time. Sifu Jim personally teaches the seniors on wednesdays and thursdays nights.

http://www.wing-chun.com.au

[kungfu cowboy]

Even if the stance is not used as a fighting stance, (which I believe it is), a reason to train in it could be that it is that configuration that most completely stresses the impotant stuctures of the legs, developing them where they most need to be, and to the greatest degree possible. I have found benefit from the main stance in almost every general use.

[kj]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does the shape of the character two add any meaning here or am I stretching here? [/quote]

I don't presume to have any secret insight on the character shape or symbolism, other than the simple and obvious. If one must choose between training in the stance, or worrying about character analysis, I am confident that time spent in proper stance work is the better choice toward excellence in Wing Chun. If I read your earlier message right, I think we are in agreement.

[Phil Redmond]

Meng Shuo, I noticed that there isn't much info on your profile. What is your lineage? Obviously everyone has a right to privacy, but a 'warrior' should be up front and be proud of who he is. Maybe I'm a dying breed. I'm an old school former U.S. Marine who believes in "Death Before Dishonor". I can't understand why a martial artist would join a forum and hide his/her indentity. What's the purpose of the forum, scuttlebut(gossip),slander,ego,backbiting, or edification? I'm coming down hard on you because seem to be very opinionated. I have a student in Brampton Ontario named Chris Blake. Next time I come up there maybe we can meet. If you don't care to claim your lineage openly that's your business. I can be reached at sifubilal@wingchunkwoon.com.

Peace
PRedmond

[Jeff Brown]

Hello P Redmond,

I understand that some people don't like opinionated people -- that is your perogative. But being opinionated is my Nature, and I will be true to that. I don't think my opinions ever degenerate into slurs or insults.

From my perspective, P Redmond, this is a forum for the exchange of opinions. I don't demand others agree with me; I only ask, in the spirit of dialogue (that dialogue encourages consideration of new points of view), that people be willing to consider my opinions and comment if they want to. Even though I don't always come out and say that I agree with other posters' opinions, that doesn't mean I don't (sometimes). Nor do I expect the entire forum to fall behind me in agreement either.

With respect to lineage, I don't discuss that with strangers. All I will say is that I have trained in Asia and North America under radically different Sifus. I have seen the way some people (not necessarily you, P Redmond, but please understand that I don't know you or anyone else out here other than by your personas) use lineage as a reductionist tool ("Of course he thinks THAT, his Sifu is a !@!@#! blah blah and his style of Wing Chun sucks and MY Sifu is great and blah blah...."). Sorry but I have no interest in getting into that. You may very well be honourable but 1) I don't know that for sure and 2) others definitely aren't (as one can readily see on VTAA, for example). I won't allow anyone to disgrace those whom I serve or have served in my name - I have too much respect for them.

I respect the opinions, background, and codes of ethics of everyone out here, P Redmond, make no mistake about that. But I also respect that mine are not always going to match with, say, yours. I trust you to do the same. If not, I will disappear from this forum easily and with a clear conscience.

[reneritchie]

Just to provide some variety, from my experience:

Yee Jee "Shape of Character 2" is pretty much how KJ described it, depicting a trapezoid between toes or knees (shorter upper line) and heels or feet (longer bottom line), or, as more commonly used with the knives, depicting parallel nature.

Kim "to clamp"

Yeung is actually a different character from "sheep" in many WCK lineages (Leung Jan Gulao, Sum Nung, Pan Nam, etc.) and signifies Yang (of Yin and Yang). Some interpret this as the "male groin", others as a reference to the Yang meridians in the leg, or the Yang points of the foot. For those who use the character sheep, there is a reference to how sheep were restrained by Chinese butchers (and a less well known historical reference).

Most branches, historically, seem consistent with how the horse is done in Gulao, Sum Nung, and early (Foshan and Leung Sheung lineages of) Yip Man. That is, with the toes rotated in and the body sunk to bring the knees close.

Application wise, I've seen some very good people both with that version of the horse, and with more open/parellel versions. IMHO, it needs to be taken in the context of the "whole art" and, as others have said, the relative skill of practioners.

Rgds,

RR

[Jeff Brown]

what does the character, "Jee" look like, RR? Can you provide a dictionary link or give a pinyin equivalent?

"Once I have harnessed the power of the Sun, I will be UNSTOPPABLE!" -- Mini-Me

[reneritchie]

Jee has the character for "kid" under a "roof". It's Zi in Mandarin.

Here are a couple links:

http://www.zhongwen.com/d/166/x114.htm
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/canton-f2.pl?query=%a6%72

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

LMAO at MengShuo

[Jeff Brown]

I see the expression as more complex now.

Still, I think the pigeon-toed stance trains balance, provides a guide for measuring the feet in proximity to the target and each other, while allowing the WC practioner to protect his or her groin. Again, if Master Yip and those of his level don't do it, it's because they have mastered that!

Stop your laughing WH!!

"Once I have harnessed the power of the Sun, I will be UNSTOPPABLE!" -- Mini-Me

[sunkuen]

Hey buddy, the qoute was actually "Once I have harnessed the power of the Sunkuen, I will be UNSTOPPABLE!" mini-me lol=D