PDA

View Full Version : No child left behind



cam
04-20-2005, 10:31 AM
Least we forget

BibitClerus
04-20-2005, 10:56 AM
that look like it hurt a little, dude

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 10:57 AM
B@STARDs And Their God D@mn Wars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shaolinlueb
04-20-2005, 11:13 AM
see its "no child left behind in america" thats what you dont understand ;)

wdl
04-20-2005, 11:34 AM
That's heart wrenching.

-Will

WinterPalm
04-20-2005, 11:43 AM
That looks like one of those eggs everybody keeps saying it is necessary to break in order to make an omelette. Good job!

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 11:54 AM
Who decided we wanted omelettes in the first place? I hate omelettes.

WinterPalm
04-20-2005, 11:58 AM
I'm actually eatting a tomato and spinach omelette right now!
That said, the systemic remolding of the world into the capitalist dependency model is dictating the choices made by influential and powerful governments. That dead child is just a part of the rationality of profit. Sort of like an incidental to the real focus and goals.

wdl
04-20-2005, 11:59 AM
You've got a picture of a most likely dead girl, with her foot blown off being carried off a pile of dead bodies and you'll are talking about egg omelettes? Get some perspective and find some respect. It could have been you being carried off that pile as a child, but no your breathing now.

-Will

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 12:02 PM
Foshizzle !!

fa_jing
04-20-2005, 12:02 PM
It's called satire, fellow. By trivializing it he is giving you his impression of those pulling the strings.

WinterPalm
04-20-2005, 12:03 PM
Obviously you missed the sarcasm. This charade of invasion, liberation, subjugation and misery has been going on in cycles for hundreds of years. People always say you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette, I certainly don't want to ever be an egg but I thought it would be necessary to point out to those, and there are a few on this forum, that insist that it is necessary to break a few eggs to make an omelette. Then, now, when you see an egg, what can those people respond with?

fa_jing
04-20-2005, 12:07 PM
Well some people have been saying that it is necessary to break an egg now to save two eggs down the road. Whether or not this is true, it isn't concern for the eggs that is driving this thing.

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 12:09 PM
Its pretty much common sense that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

I just think its pretty lame that people like omelettes so much.

They should eat chicken instead.

ZIM
04-20-2005, 12:10 PM
The statement, I believe, didn't refer specifically to victims of war- but you can concieve any alternative definition or implication you please.

For myself, I look at "no child left behind" to be related to such as these. (http://www.planters.org/PhotoJournal/November_02/Nov_images/poverty.JPG)

But even then, it isn't accurate. Its an educational initiative, not a philosophical touchstone.

wdl
04-20-2005, 12:12 PM
I do not feel that sarcasm or satire is needed to describe or understand that photo. It violates the profound.

-Will

red5angel
04-20-2005, 12:23 PM
huh, now if we could only get those indiscrimiate car bombers from blowing up everyone whether they need it or not.


and that's all this fukking forum needs right now is another fukking political thread for crap to be spouted of about. I was just thinking today about how nice it's been not having to deal with bullsh!t politics and a fuktard like this comes along to stir up trouble. thats one big FUKK YOU my friend. If you were here I'd beat you till you looked worse then that little girl.

WinterPalm
04-20-2005, 12:32 PM
Your should be banned. Rarely do you contribute anything worth reading.

red5angel
04-20-2005, 12:34 PM
Winterpalm, at the very least I go beyond hippy diatribes and soapboxing about returning to nature like you do. I've never ONCE seen you post anything martial arts related. You lurk until one of these retarded posts come up and then suddenly you've got some interest. G, wonder what's on your agenda.

but I got a great suggestion. In protest of all the violence why don't you give yourself a nice coating of gasoline and light yourself on fire?

WinterPalm
04-20-2005, 12:37 PM
I've posted many times on training and health, in that forum. I've posted in various threads on methods of conditioning and theories of combat such as Kung Fu, Tai Chi, MMA, and others. You do not even do kung fu. I train very hard and am concerned for fellow people and do not support violence such as that done to that little girl. That could have been my sister or a friend. It is horrible and I know that those responsible will never be held to account.
You can keep trolling though...

red5angel
04-20-2005, 12:38 PM
blah blah blah, like three years ago maybe.

But seriously dude, you should protest. Maybe load your car up with explosives, pick a random target, or maybe even one not so random and just drive up and pull the trigger. Maybe that will stop the violence?

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 12:42 PM
These are sensitive issues, which everyone deals with differently.

No one is trolling. (i still have yet to understand that term fully) <----Newb they call me think I to the scene of forum.

everyone here "does" kung fu. Even if they dont practice chinese martial arts.

ZIM
04-20-2005, 01:01 PM
blah blah blah, like three years ago maybe.

But seriously dude, you should protest. Maybe load your car up with explosives, pick a random target, or maybe even one not so random and just drive up and pull the trigger. Maybe that will stop the violence?
The objective for protest in this case should be [I think] to battle the causes for war, rather than to bemoan the casualties of it.

I'm still waiting for the protesting class to stop with the relatively safe position of ****ing their own and to move on to criticising the fanatics who are doing the bomb-strapping and child-brainwashing. Nobody wants to be the first American Theo Van Gogh, however. Guess its just safer to stay with what you know...

TaiChiBob
04-20-2005, 01:03 PM
Greetings..

Whenever a Gov't, the most powerful Gov't, takes on a mantra like "no child left behind", they have inspired a "philosophical touchstone".. their values, examined and evaluated on the world stage, fall empty.. at what price, on the world market, does the US educate its own childern? The "educational initiative" has proven to be primarily campaign rhetoric, unfundable (largely due to the high cost of invasion and occupation) and lacking qualified personnel to effect such a sweeping concept..

Be well..

TaiChiBob
04-20-2005, 01:07 PM
Greetings..

ZIM: To few people are willing to deal with the actual and systemic causes of war.. it would touch too close to home..

Be well..

ZIM
04-20-2005, 01:07 PM
Greetings..

Whenever a Gov't, the most powerful Gov't, takes on a mantra like "no child left behind", they have inspired a "philosophical touchstone".. their values, examined and evaluated on the world stage, fall empty.. at what price, on the world market, does the US educate its own childern? The "educational initiative" has proven to be primarily campaign rhetoric, unfundable (largely due to the high cost of invasion and occupation) and lacking qualified personnel to effect such a sweeping concept..

Be well..This can be argued by both 'sides' til the cows come home. It isn't the topic of the thread, however, and although I like derailing threads sometimes, this one I'll avoid doing that to.

ZIM
04-20-2005, 01:10 PM
Greetings..

ZIM: To few people are willing to deal with the actual and systemic causes of war.. it would touch too close to home..

Be well..
We disagree on where they lay and the mechanics of same, that's all. :)

With respect.

wdl
04-20-2005, 01:21 PM
Pile of dead people and a dead girl with her leg blown off.

That is one of the sadest images I've seen come out of Iraq, and you cheese wagon mouth pieces are worried about petty politics? Do you realize the drivel you spew? My God, it's not a photo that in a remote way requires sarcasm or satire or political arguement. It requires a somber sense of grief for the girl.

-Will

Shaolinlueb
04-20-2005, 01:50 PM
its war. people die. men, women, and children die. war is all about love. but through war sometimes comes peace. **** liberals. if there was war in this country kids and women would be dying too. its the price to pay. get over it.

BibitClerus
04-20-2005, 01:57 PM
its war. people die. men, women, and children die. war is all about love. but through war sometimes comes peace. **** liberals. if there was war in this country kids and women would be dying too. its the price to pay. get over it.

Habemus canis filius:
Shaolinlueb!!

TaiChiBob
04-20-2005, 01:58 PM
Greetings..

wdl: i agree.. but, i have grieved for decades over losses such as this.. it gets no easier.. now, i am compelled to take an activist perspective and demand action.. grief is appropriate and proper, but.. grief is not a solution, humanity has grieved for millenia as it continues to sort out its differences with violence.. as it views its nationalities and cultures as somehow separate entities.. the grief is universal.. the plight is universal.. now, let's work for a universal solution.. not one favoring a particular interest but the interests of all peoples..

Be well..

cam
04-20-2005, 01:59 PM
I am sorry that I ruined your cheeseburger Red. Get back to your mindless entertainment now.

Vash
04-20-2005, 02:03 PM
Habemus canis filius

Is that son of a female dog? I know canis, and I think filius is son, so that's what I'm getting.

BibitClerus
04-20-2005, 02:06 PM
yeah, female dog
used in the same sense as son of a *****

:D

Kristoffer
04-20-2005, 02:40 PM
hey where'd all the new b1tches come from?

cam -
this isn't rotten.com, if ur gonna post **** like that I'm sure many would want u to give a warning first. I'm not sure what you're point is either. You think you are proving some kind of point with that picture? Since u'r they guy who dragged that out maybe u wanna explain yourself?

red5angel
04-20-2005, 02:47 PM
I am sorry that I ruined your cheeseburger Red. Get back to your mindless entertainment now.


fukk you troll. You're neither subtle nor new so go find some other forum to pester.



now, i am compelled to take an activist perspective and demand action..

:rolleyes:


how about instead of demanding something be done, you start doing something about it?


I love all these wanna be politico acitvists internet heroes who get all riled up about the horrible **** going on around the world but there they sit in their cushy fukking chairs at work, or at home or at school. If you feel so bad about it why aren't you out there helping these people out? Don't give me any crap about doing things around your local city to help out cause you and I know that's a total cop out.

red5angel
04-20-2005, 02:48 PM
Kristoffer, cam's a troll.

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 03:01 PM
If someone was really passionate about helping others, they would join the Peace Corp. Its that simple.

I have thought about it and still may, but I want to have a good savings so when I come back to society im not screwed.

Plus I want to get alot more training in first, Ill join in maybe 10 years.

ZIM
04-20-2005, 03:15 PM
If someone was really passionate about helping others, they would join the Peace Corp. Its that simple.

I have thought about it and still may, but I want to have a good savings so when I come back to society im not screwed.

Plus I want to get alot more training in first, Ill join in maybe 10 years.
By all means, do it- don't let the savings bit get you stalled. The Peace Corps is like the Masons in that they've got some of the best connections/networking in the world. Seriously.

red5angel
04-20-2005, 03:17 PM
My wife and I have been chatting about the Peace Corps as well. She wants to finish school first but we may go that route when we're done.

cam
04-20-2005, 03:17 PM
An explanation?
Why not. So many people talk about fighting and violence on this board and don't realize the consequences of violence. Deal with it. You want a warning, Grow up.
Some of you people forget that you live in a democracy, so whether or not you voted for Bush, you all bare the responsibility of the actions your Government takes.

red5angel
04-20-2005, 03:22 PM
An explanation?
Why not. So many people talk about fighting and violence on this board and don't realize the consequences of violence. Deal with it. You want a warning, Grow up.
Some of you people forget that you live in a democracy, so whether or not you voted for Bush, you all bare the responsibility of the actions your Government takes.


you, you, you, stop pointing your finger you fukk. you heard what I said about doing something about it, get up off your lazy finger pointing ass and stat volunteering to help these people out instead of *****ing about it on a kungfu forum how about it? My guess is you got some snappy come back you think wipes clean the responsibility you seem to pretend to hold so dear. People like you make me fukking sick cause while you're up on your fukking internet soapbox eating your HAMBURGERS, **** for brains, you want to make out like you really give a fukk. Give it up hypocrite. Why don't you spend some time growing up there kid?

ZIM
04-20-2005, 03:31 PM
So many people talk about fighting and violence on this board and don't realize the consequences of violence. Sure we do.
Blowing up buildings [AKA "violence"] = War.
Note the order carefully. Glad we could help.

TaiChiBob
04-20-2005, 03:49 PM
Greetings..

The problem:
I love all these wanna be politico acitvists internet heroes who get all riled up about the horrible **** going on around the world but there they sit in their cushy fukking chairs at work, or at home or at school. If you feel so bad about it why aren't you out there helping these people out? Don't give me any crap about doing things around your local city to help out cause you and I know that's a total cop out. Trash talking wannabe bad-azzes.. people making broad assumptions about people they have never met, and haven't a clue about what they do or don't do.. while R5A talks trash about what others post, he also has nothing to contribute except conflict.. oh, and what he and his wife "chat" about.. put your finger pointing back in your own face R5A.. Civil dialogue might start a cause or some valid action.. but, spewing filth is no better than the problem itself.. it is attitudes like R5A's that incite the same kinds of violence that we see plastered in news reports daily.. it is regrettable that civil dialogue must suffer such nonsense..

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 03:50 PM
I have thought about just getting out there and saying "screw saving" but then I think about my kung fu. I really want to learn more from my sifu before I leave. I want him to say, you should go now. lol. but i want to at least feel I need to move on before i do. He has so much more for me to learn. Perhaps in 5 years I will go for a year or two then return for more training.

I know its pretty selfish but its something i feel.

I have thought about the connections and im sure they would most deffinately help you get back on your feet. Plus the Peace Corp would not hurt a resume' any either. ;)

PangQuan
04-20-2005, 03:51 PM
Hey red if you join the Peace Corp tell me, ill go too the we can cartwheel and butterfly twist the hell outa famine and death.

fa_jing
04-20-2005, 04:05 PM
"Some of you people forget that you live in a democracy, so whether or not you voted for Bush, you all bare the responsibility of the actions your Government takes."


Disagree. Those fools didn't ask my opinion about sh!t. If they did I'd say burn all the money and give anarchy a chance.

rogue
04-20-2005, 06:36 PM
Anybody have some pictures from Sudan? Whoops, can't blame Bush or the US for that one so I guess not.

Shaolinlueb
04-20-2005, 06:51 PM
Habemus canis filius:
Shaolinlueb!!

wtf that mean man?

Shaolinlueb
04-20-2005, 06:53 PM
My wife and I have been chatting about the Peace Corps as well. She wants to finish school first but we may go that route when we're done.

yeah it sucks being 18 doesnt it.

Christopher M
04-20-2005, 07:04 PM
it's not a photo that in a remote way requires sarcasm or satire or political arguement. It requires a somber sense of grief for the girl.

I agree completely.

However, it appears that the photo was posted in the first place to make a political statement. It seems that the political replies are in response to this implication rather than the picture itself.

wdl
04-20-2005, 10:33 PM
I agree completely.

However, it appears that the photo was posted in the first place to make a political statement. It seems that the political replies are in response to this implication rather than the picture itself.

Yeah, and he's a lowlife scumbag for using an image of a dead maimed girl to try and start an inflamed political engagement. Everyone who engaged politically and fell for it should take a step back and realize they got duped and the people that engaged and agreed with him should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. Both sides of the political aisle are guilty of using images or other rhetoric to start crap and it's shameful. Using something like that little girl to manipulate people to your opinion is so callous you should be flogged, raped by an elephant and shot.

TaiChiBob: Your correct grief is not the solution. Unfortunately I do not ever see a social system emerging where politics is dropped and government completely serves the populous. If it was up to me we'd have a revolution ever 50 years like Thomas Jefferson is popularly quoted as saying is needed in any country. However then we'd be back in the same boat, war, with little girls dying.

-Will

cam
04-21-2005, 04:57 AM
Slaughter can not be sanitized, unlike your media. Perhaps I should have posted a picture of Guernica.

red5angel
04-21-2005, 06:46 AM
taichibob, stfu. Seriously, you're holier then thou attitude is about done on this forum ok? You sit there in florida practicing firing your qi-balls and stop accusing me of making broad assumptions while making huge assumptions yourself, thanks, no need to reply, you got nothing worth saying anyway.

Cam, perhaps you should take my protest suggestions seriously? Or maybe do something about it instead of shooting off your mouth. While tiachibob is too busy sticking his foot in his his fat mouth, I'm not the one here whining and complaining about what's going on. The two of you idiots what to claim you want the worlds suffering to end while sitting cushy and safe in your western built societies. The two of you make me sick.

red5angel
04-21-2005, 06:48 AM
Pangquan, no problem. Maybe we can get a gig in brazil :D

TonyM.
04-21-2005, 08:32 AM
Oh great! Now we have people quoting that slave owning lying scoundrel illuminati stooge Jefferson.

Chief Fox
04-21-2005, 09:44 AM
The girl in that picture is about the same age as my daughter. It's very sad. :(

WAR: Sometimes WAR is good. Like when you're fighting to protect your homeland, or your family. WAR can be good when you're protecting someone who can't protect themselves.

This WAR in Iraq, I don't understand it. I'm not sure why we're there. Hooray! We got Sadam Husane, now what? Our troops are going to be in that country for a long, long time and all the while more little girls will die, more of our troops will die, The deficit will keep growing. And for what?

Who here feels safer as a result of the war in Iraq?

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 09:52 AM
Not me.....

red5angel
04-21-2005, 09:54 AM
yeah it sucks being 18 doesnt it.


I don't get it......

wdl
04-21-2005, 09:54 AM
The girl in that picture is about the same age as my daughter. It's very sad. :(

Who here feels safer as a result of the war in Iraq?

Finally!! Somebody that openly agrees it's a sad picture. Now I know everyone here pretty much agrees it is, it's something that is understood. Chief Fox was willing to state that fact before he went onto the political topic.

The question about the war in Iraq, that is something I feel should be addressed in a different thread if at all. I've seen that question or atleast ones similiar around already.


-Will

red5angel
04-21-2005, 09:55 AM
Who here feels safer as a result of the war in Iraq?


not sure it's completely about you feeling better, or me.

ZIM
04-21-2005, 09:57 AM
Who here feels safer as a result of the war in Iraq?I do.

Somebody had to answer, I guess.

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 09:58 AM
the only wars the US has been involved in within this last century that I would have freely joined based on a moral and phylisophical standard would be WWI and WWII all the rest were fukkin bullsh!t.

ZIM
04-21-2005, 10:08 AM
Why WWI? That was something of a meat grinder & had less to do with us, overall.

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 10:26 AM
Thats true, I guess I base my decision on the fact that im in the future and know where it went.

Chief Fox
04-21-2005, 10:30 AM
not sure it's completely about you feeling better, or me.

I agrree that it's not all about me or you but we (the American tax payer) is paying for this war and what is the benefit, if any, to anyone?

Hey, great, just saw that 6 more Americans died in a helicopter crash. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20050421/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&sid=84439559

red5angel
04-21-2005, 10:41 AM
I agrree that it's not all about me or you but we (the American tax payer) is paying for this war and what is the benefit, if any, to anyone?

again, does it always have to be about us?

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 10:45 AM
Polotics fukkin suck. I think we need to get invaded by aliens. Then maybe people will realize that we are all in this together and we should be working as a unified species for the better of all.

red5angel
04-21-2005, 10:47 AM
Polotics fukkin suck. I think we need to get invaded by aliens. Then maybe people will realize that we are all in this together and we should be working as a unified species for the better of all.



gearing up for war of the worlds pangquan? :)

ZIM
04-21-2005, 10:48 AM
I agrree that it's not all about me or you but we (the American tax payer) is paying for this war and what is the benefit, if any, to anyone?

If you're going to start talking about things we pay for that don't have any benefit to us, then this war effort will have to take a much lower number in looooong line of things I'd rather complain about.

ZIM
04-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Polotics fukkin suck. I think we need to get invaded by aliens. Then maybe people will realize that we are all in this together and we should be working as a unified species for the better of all.
Hey! You're quoting Reagan!

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 11:04 AM
if there was some jerk I was gonna kill cause my govt. told me to and all of a sudden some sliming multi tenacled extra terrestrial tried to eat my target. I would shoot the alien instead. then run away so he doesnt blow himself up at me.

Chief Fox
04-21-2005, 11:12 AM
again, does it always have to be about us?

Well, it didn't benefit the little girl with her leg blown off or the people that died in the helicopter crash today.

red5angel
04-21-2005, 11:23 AM
if there was some jerk I was gonna kill cause my govt. told me to and all of a sudden some sliming multi tenacled extra terrestrial tried to eat my target. I would shoot the alien instead. then run away so he doesnt blow himself up at me.


that's what fully automatic and squad tactics are for ;)

ZIM
04-21-2005, 11:24 AM
if there was some jerk I was gonna kill cause my govt. told me to and all of a sudden some sliming multi tenacled extra terrestrial tried to eat my target. I would shoot the alien instead. then run away so he doesnt blow himself up at me.That's the way slimy tentacled aliens say hello. Everybody eats everybody on their planet- which is TRUE Democracy [er...equality]. You're so Earthocentric, you got blinded by your own ignorance.

Besides, the enemy of my enemy....nevermind, not going there. :p

red5angel
04-21-2005, 11:26 AM
Well, it didn't benefit the little girl with her leg blown off or the people that died in the helicopter crash today.


sure but it might benefit her family down the road, or her neighbors and friends.

It'd be nice if we could just walk into countries like Iraq, Nigeria, Somalia, etc... and just ask everyone to put down their guns, their bombs, and their corrupt ways and start over. We'd only have to pay for the plane tickets. I just don't see that happening anytime soon?

Why Iraq? Why not? We had a history with Saddam anyway, and he got away with an invasion once already. The middle east needs a moderate government in power. Iraq has oil to compensate for all the money being spent there. The people were already risking life and limb under the Saddam Regime. I'm not sure there could have been a more perfect place to do this sort of thing.

WinterPalm
04-21-2005, 11:31 AM
I apologize for my post on the eggs topic. I figured it would be making a point as to how pointless and ridiculous the Iraq war was and is as well as some of the arguments for it.
I can understand the idea that many are sitting in chairs and bemoaning the whole thing but on the other hand, how many here are saying how great and necessary this war is and how this is what "we" have to do while sitting on their nice comfy chair. It is unfortunate that the historical events that have give rise to people like Saddam Hussein and George Bush are still going, these processes are in affect today and the consequences for recent actions: boosting Japan's military presence, allying with a dicatorship Pakistan, Turkey, Colombia, and countless others who are propped up by the economic powers of the world, not to mention Libya! If people were so grand about this whole thing, that is those that support these ridiculous media manufactured wars, they would protest the extreme double standards going on and not let their governments arm people like Hitler, Saddam, Pinochet, and countless others.
I did not mean to make light of that horrible picture and again I apologize. I can't imagine the pain both Iraqis and British, Polish, Australian and American people are experiencing from this war. I hope the profits are worth it.

ZIM
04-21-2005, 11:42 AM
Well, it didn't benefit the little girl with her leg blown off or the people that died in the helicopter crash today.
There's lots of things that don't benefit anybody. (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/stoning2.jpg)

Chief Fox
04-21-2005, 12:18 PM
sure but it might benefit her family down the road, or her neighbors and friends.

It'd be nice if we could just walk into countries like Iraq, Nigeria, Somalia, etc... and just ask everyone to put down their guns, their bombs, and their corrupt ways and start over. We'd only have to pay for the plane tickets. I just don't see that happening anytime soon?

Why Iraq? Why not? We had a history with Saddam anyway, and he got away with an invasion once already. The middle east needs a moderate government in power. Iraq has oil to compensate for all the money being spent there. The people were already risking life and limb under the Saddam Regime. I'm not sure there could have been a more perfect place to do this sort of thing.

I see your points. But I don't like to just blindly follow. I think the Bush administration expects just that, for the American people to be sheep and just follow him because he thinks it's a good idea. it's in my nature to ask why. And i don't like to see pictures of blown up little girls.

Chief Fox
04-21-2005, 12:20 PM
There's lots of things that don't benefit anybody. (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/stoning2.jpg)

Sadly, I agree. But we can still ask why are these things happening and not just accept them.

PangQuan
04-21-2005, 12:31 PM
Agreed. it would be nice to be able to live in a world of blind faith and ignorance. All of us here know this is impossible.

Sometimes it is nice to enter the realm of lotus blossoms and different shades of joy, but the bitter reality of life is always on the other side of the window.

Sacrifices are made in any major cause whether it be just or foul. The goal and methods are what make those sacrifices worth while. If the goals and methods are not in acordance with justice then it is just whole sail slaughter.

It is very sad.

red5angel
04-21-2005, 12:32 PM
I see your points. But I don't like to just blindly follow. I think the Bush administration expects just that, for the American people to be sheep and just follow him because he thinks it's a good idea. it's in my nature to ask why. And i don't like to see pictures of blown up little girls.


as much as some of us would like to believe, I don't think many people really do blindly follow. I know some people can be suckered by the media, or other sources, but that's because human beings are basically lazy. We choose what we like to hear and don't worry too much about the rest, Let someone have the argument for us.
I don't think anyone is saying the war in Iraq is a "good" thing, whatever that is, but I think some people believe that good can come of it.

ZIM
04-21-2005, 08:52 PM
A little more on that helicopter crash (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7572161/)

-They were civilians
-The last survivor, unarmed and wounded, was shot while being told- in english- to "go"
-This was filmed, released on the net. Its probably on Orgrish now [nws, of course]

JohnnyMnemonic
04-22-2005, 04:52 AM
[QUOTE=PangQuan]Agreed. it would be nice to be able to live in a world of blind faith and ignorance. All of us here know this is impossible.

QUOTE]

What do you mean? We do live in a world of blind faith and ignorance.

Everyone believed there were WMD in Iraq even though it was a bald faced lie.

We see news about the Michael Jackson trial everyday even though it is obvious it is a setup to force him to sell his music catalog so a corporation can put it up on iTunes and make millions.

We accept all the revelations about the Catholic church being full of pedophiles. Without ever wondering why it is that no other religion ever seems to have any problems at all. It is only the Catholics, long time nemesis of the people fostering these charges, that seem to have all these awful sexual revelations revealed.

Most people are sheep and do not want to be bothered with truth or reality. Ignorance and bliss is their preferred state of existence.

JohnnyMnemonic
04-22-2005, 05:03 AM
It'd be nice if we could just walk into countries like Iraq, Nigeria, Somalia, etc... and just ask everyone to put down their guns, their bombs, and their corrupt ways and start over. We'd only have to pay for the plane tickets. I just don't see that happening anytime soon?

.

Here is a thought.

What if we walked up to the White House and asked them to put down their guns and their bombs and their corrupt ways and start over? We don't have to pay for plane tickets, we can do it email or over the phone.

See how your world view is influenced? You start off with the premise that Nigeria and Somalia etc are in the wrong. Why? Somalia and Nigeria neither one have invaded any country that I know of.

The USA in the last 4 years has

Invaded and conquered Iraq, Afghanistan and Haiti

fomented coups in Khyrgistan, Ukraine, Soviet Georgia, Liberia and are trying to start one in Lebanon, Cuba and assorted ex Soviet client states. Backed a failed coup attempt in Venezuela.

enacted terror attacks in Iran, Syria and North Korea

Are making war noises against Syria, Iran and North Korea.

Letting China know they are next in the sights of the war machine once the muslims are subjugated.


No one else in the world is invading foreign countries or threatening foreign countries. Why is everyone else BUT the USA a problem?

JohnnyMnemonic
04-22-2005, 05:11 AM
I agrree that it's not all about me or you but we (the American tax payer) is paying for this war and what is the benefit, if any, to anyone?



Halliburton, Bechtel and defense contractors all benefit.

Bremer. While Bremer was in Iraq, 8 billion dollars disappeared. Not bad for a years work, eh?

The Israelis for whom the war was prosecuted.

Bush and the republicans. They got re elected by scaring everyone with lies about terror attacks. You ever notice how the week after Bush was elected, those color coded terror alerts disappeared from the TV?

There was no more reason for them. The point of those terror alerts was to frighten people into voting for the current regime. Once the regime was elected, no more need to keep people frightened so no more color coded terror alerts.

The USA as a country. The USA maintains global dominance by having the world currency as the US dollar. Before the Iraq invasion, Saddam was going to start pricing oil in Euros. If other countries followed suit, the Euro would become world currency in place of the dollar. This would probably bankrupt the USA and surely turn it into a pauper country that no one would pay attention to. Hence the invasion was necessary to stop Saddam from pricing oil in Euros.

TonyM.
04-22-2005, 07:27 AM
I'd consider that a done deal. Me thinks the basura europa is going to B.F. us hard on that one.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 07:54 AM
Here is a thought.

What if we walked up to the White House and asked them to put down their guns and their bombs and their corrupt ways and start over? We don't have to pay for plane tickets, we can do it email or over the phone.

Why aren't you?


See how your world view is influenced? You start off with the premise that Nigeria and Somalia etc are in the wrong. Why? Somalia and Nigeria neither one have invaded any country that I know of.
The USA in the last 4 years has
Invaded and conquered Iraq, Afghanistan and Haiti{/QUOTE]


Wow, someones completely not paying attention to this thread are they? But allow me to straighten you out so you don't look so much like an ass anymore mmkay?

You bleeding hearts seem to think that just looking inward is going to solve all the problems. You're consistant and idiotic mistake is assuming the US is at the heart of all the worlds problems, or atleast most of them. You're other idiotic mistake is thinking that somehow some driving morality exists as a universal truth, to stop us from making the neighbors start playing nice for our interests if not anyone elses.
I got a good question for you there Johnny, what are you doing with your life right now?


[QUOTE]fomented coups in Khyrgistan, Ukraine, Soviet Georgia, Liberia and are trying to start one in Lebanon, Cuba and assorted ex Soviet client states. Backed a failed coup attempt in Venezuela.
enacted terror attacks in Iran, Syria and North Korea



Ultra liberal heresay, nothing more. You make assumptions you cannot backup except my guess is, with the use of ultra liberal resources, as highly biased as all the bad guys you are claiming exist out there in the US government.



Letting China know they are next in the sights of the war machine once the muslims are subjugated.

Ah yes, I'll give you a piece of advice - if you don't know what you're talking about, shut your trap. ;)



No one else in the world is invading foreign countries or threatening foreign countries. Why is everyone else BUT the USA a problem?

Why is everyone else but the USA a problem? Why are people dying in droves at the hands of warlords in several african countries. Why are people subjugated and pressed into forced poverty in places like N. Korea, IRan and Syria? Why is it that the rest of the world is sitting around on their cheeky asses doing nothing?

ZIM
04-22-2005, 08:04 AM
Why is it that the rest of the world is sitting around on their cheeky asses doing nothing? Because the US will take care of it.

Oh, and shame on you, JohnnyMnemonic. This thread is not about politics, but about meditating on the picture of a wounded girl.

Shaolinlueb
04-22-2005, 08:29 AM
how about we take the battlefield form iraq to usa, and we switch out the arabic girl for a catholic white girl. then oh god the whole world will have to pay attention cause its happening to the usa. i feel bad, but its war, people die, women and children get killed. im sure this isnt the worse that has happened. ask any of the combat soldiers coming back, they probably wont even tlak about it with you cause its something they dont want to remember. join the peace corps, go to iraq, get in the hilt of it, get maybe even killed while your there. then you can feel better cause then you actually did something about it instead of argueing over the internet about it. ;) :D

rogue
04-22-2005, 10:09 AM
how about we take the battlefield form iraq to usa, and we switch out the arabic girl for a catholic white girl. then oh god the whole world will have to pay attention cause its happening to the usa.
It was done a few years back, and the bad guys found out that it's not smart to do.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 10:35 AM
...i feel bad, but its war, people die, women and children get killed. im sure this isnt the worse that has happened...

So because it's a "WAR" (whatever the he!! that is) and because worse things have happened, that makes it ok?

Your sh!t happens attitude is disturbing. the problem is people like you don't really give a sh!t about the rest of the world or the rest of the country for that matter. you just sit back and say, "well it could be worse" and do nothing about it. you're the kind of person that just rides the coat tails of life and does nohing to improve anything.

The fact is our guys don't have the training or the tools to do the job right so they have to use other tatics that inadvertantly kill innocent little girls. You just can't say "it's war, people die". You have to question why. Why don't our guys have the training? Why don't they have the tools? Why are innocent little girls dying? And why the FUKK isn't Osama Bin Laden in a jail cell next to Sadam!?

Just saying it's war, deal with it is ignorant. you should be deported.

ZIM
04-22-2005, 10:44 AM
Just saying it's war, deal with it is ignorant. you should be deported. No- shoved in an oven!!

C'mon, that's too over the top....I hate the ultra-lib terror-enabling faction, but I wouldn't deport them, even to Canada.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 11:23 AM
....I hate the ultra-lib terror-enabling faction...

What is the ultra-lib terror-enabling faction?

ZIM
04-22-2005, 11:39 AM
What is the ultra-lib terror-enabling faction?
InternationalANSWER, the ISM, Rachel Corrie, stuff like that.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 11:48 AM
The fact is our guys don't have the training or the tools to do the job right so they have to use other tatics that inadvertantly kill innocent little girls.

Chief, where are you getting this opinion from? Our guys know what they should be doing as well as anyone can. As time moves on they will figure out the rest, as would anyone in this situation.

As for killing little girls...I'm willing to bet that picture show's the victim of a car bomber. So far in my opinion the militants are more capable of doing damage to civilians for their cause then we are.

cam
04-22-2005, 01:05 PM
I wish you Americans would declare war on all those gas-guzzling Suv's you all are so fond of driving. That's a war the world could get behind, except for those who profit off the high price of oil.

PangQuan
04-22-2005, 01:17 PM
Im american, I dont even own a car. By choice. I walk, run, bike, bus or train everywhere I go. try not to make asumptions about a civilization based a select crowd. It would be like saying all germans are nazi scum. Which is entirely untrue.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 01:19 PM
Chief, where are you getting this opinion from? Our guys know what they should be doing as well as anyone can. As time moves on they will figure out the rest, as would anyone in this situation.

As for killing little girls...I'm willing to bet that picture show's the victim of a car bomber. So far in my opinion the militants are more capable of doing damage to civilians for their cause then we are.

Our guys aren't trained to make the transition from open ground warfare to urban warfare. They are not trained to search blocks of a city building by building. Yes, they are training more and more in this manner now but not so much when this war began. So yes, they will figure it out but in the mean time there will probably be a lot of collateral damamge like the little girl.

You're probably right about the cause of death for the little girl.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 01:23 PM
I wish you Americans would declare war on all those gas-guzzling Suv's you all are so fond of driving. That's a war the world could get behind, except for those who profit off the high price of oil.

I have a 4 cylinder honda accourd. I buy gas twice a month and during the summer I ride my bike to work a few days a week.

ZIM
04-22-2005, 01:23 PM
I wish you Americans would declare war on all those gas-guzzling Suv's you all are so fond of driving. That's a war the world could get behind, except for those who profit off the high price of oil.
Like France, the UN, the usual suspects...

cam
04-22-2005, 01:33 PM
Indeed Zim, there is lots of blame to go around. It is unfair that America gets the heap of blame placed on it's shoulders but America has the biggest shoulders. Some would say the fattest, though Canada has some pretty fat shoulders as well!

red5angel
04-22-2005, 01:35 PM
I wish you Americans would declare war on all those gas-guzzling Suv's you all are so fond of driving. That's a war the world could get behind, except for those who profit off the high price of oil.

yes, thank you for generalizing and proving yourself an idiotic @ss yet again. Also thank us for the economy that's keeping you cushy and warm.



Our guys aren't trained to make the transition from open ground warfare to urban warfare. They are not trained to search blocks of a city building by building. Yes, they are training more and more in this manner now but not so much when this war began.

Sounds like something you may have picked up on the news. In truth the military has been creating special units for this sort of warfare for some time. On top of that the army especially has moved in the direction of small unit tactical warfare for some time, going so far as to convert a few divisions/regiments to lighter more mobile units for warfare such as this. It's of course not perfected, or wasn't, and only fighting this type of war get's you to a level of expertise one would like to have.



You're probably right about the cause of death for the little girl.

I'm not really trying to be right, but making a statment. With all the compaling about bombs dropped by the US, no one has bothered to look at the numbers of civilians killed or wounded by bombs and those killed or wounded by car bombs and other militant attacks.
Ever wonder why bringing in militant fighters from out ofthe country is so popular? It's not just to bolster their own forces but also because those people will have less compassion for the innocents they splatter all over the concrete.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 01:52 PM
Sounds like something you may have picked up on the news. In truth the military has been creating special units for this sort of warfare for some time. On top of that the army especially has moved in the direction of small unit tactical warfare for some time, going so far as to convert a few divisions/regiments to lighter more mobile units for warfare such as this. It's of course not perfected, or wasn't, and only fighting this type of war get's you to a level of expertise one would like to have.

I'm aware of the fact that special forces train for this type of combat. However, the 3rd armored cavalry regiment that is based at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs (where I live) has just recently started this type of training. The 3rd armored has just recently been deployed for the second time back to Iraq. The first time around, they did not have this type of training.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 01:59 PM
I'm aware of the fact that special forces train for this type of combat. However, the 3rd armored cavalry regiment that is based at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs (where I live) has just recently started this type of training. The 3rd armored has just recently been deployed for the second time back to Iraq. The first time around, they did not have this type of training.


The 2nd and 3rd ACR did and they are more representative of the type of units you'd send into urban combat. Ask a tanker how he feels about going wall to wall and he'll tell you he hates it. Armor isn't made for fighting like that, so they've lightened the load a little and made al ot of those units more integrated with infantry.
There's no arguing that these guys could get better training but just liike the martial arts the best classroom is the ring/battlefield.

cam
04-22-2005, 01:59 PM
Red, it's not a generalization to say that America has the largest oil consumption in the world. Now perhaps you, and many members of this board don't own these gas-guzzling vehicles but someone down there sure does.

Shaolinlueb
04-22-2005, 02:01 PM
So because it's a "WAR" (whatever the he!! that is) and because worse things have happened, that makes it ok?

Your sh!t happens attitude is disturbing. the problem is people like you don't really give a sh!t about the rest of the world or the rest of the country for that matter. you just sit back and say, "well it could be worse" and do nothing about it. you're the kind of person that just rides the coat tails of life and does nohing to improve anything.

The fact is our guys don't have the training or the tools to do the job right so they have to use other tatics that inadvertantly kill innocent little girls. You just can't say "it's war, people die". You have to question why. Why don't our guys have the training? Why don't they have the tools? Why are innocent little girls dying? And why the FUKK isn't Osama Bin Laden in a jail cell next to Sadam!?

Just saying it's war, deal with it is ignorant. you should be deported.

shoved in an oven, man peace riding hippies are jsut as bad, you call what happened a couple years back a battlefield? twin towers was an isolated incidint. how did i feel? lets go bomb the heck out of someone.

if the war came here i would be off my ass and doing something. we have people in the armed forces. they do their job. who am i to argue the itnernet about whats right and whats wrong. heck i went out and voted this past september, i id my part. you people see a dead girl, that sh*t happens. dont act so surprised. do i wish the world was at war? no, i rather for peace. but sometimes peace comes through war. do i do my part? yes i keep this country going by going to work everyday, and being a proud american not living in the fear of the government that you people claim they have on us. man some of you people should pull the plug out of your butts.

wait, jsut post a picture of a little girl getting shot because she has a couple hand grenades she was going to throw at usa solders and murder us, and tell us thats wrong.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 02:02 PM
Red, it's not a generalization to say that America has the largest oil consumption in the world. Now perhaps you, and many members of this board don't own these gas-guzzling vehicles but someone down there sure does.

but your blanket statement implies either we approve of or drive these vehicles ourselves. I personally hate them, I also hate when people driver utility trucks when they don't need them. It's a ridiculous fukking habit on many levels.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:07 PM
The 2nd and 3rd ACR did and they are more representative of the type of units you'd send into urban combat. Ask a tanker how he feels about going wall to wall and he'll tell you he hates it. Armor isn't made for fighting like that, so they've lightened the load a little and made al ot of those units more integrated with infantry.
There's no arguing that these guys could get better training but just liike the martial arts the best classroom is the ring/battlefield.

So you make my point for me, on their first deployment they were NOT ready for this type of combat.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:08 PM
shoved in an oven, man peace riding hippies are jsut as bad, you call what happened a couple years back a battlefield? twin towers was an isolated incidint. how did i feel? lets go bomb the heck out of someone.

if the war came here i would be off my ass and doing something. we have people in the armed forces. they do their job. who am i to argue the itnernet about whats right and whats wrong. heck i went out and voted this past september, i id my part. you people see a dead girl, that sh*t happens. dont act so surprised. do i wish the world was at war? no, i rather for peace. but sometimes peace comes through war. do i do my part? yes i keep this country going by going to work everyday, and being a proud american not living in the fear of the government that you people claim they have on us. man some of you people should pull the plug out of your butts.

wait, jsut post a picture of a little girl getting shot because she has a couple hand grenades she was going to throw at usa solders and murder us, and tell us thats wrong.

you should still be deported. :D

Shaolinlueb
04-22-2005, 02:09 PM
you should still be deported. :D

to where?

im like 7th gen in thsi country and im so mixed it would be stupid. stupid peace loving hippy's and right wing pro p.c. people should be deported.

*edit
;) :D

red5angel
04-22-2005, 02:11 PM
So you make my point for me, on their first deployment they were NOT ready for this type of combat.


frankly as an ex soldier that's a ridiculous statement. What soldier really is prepared, even with training for his first deployment. What unit is ready for their first deployment? However I believe that many of these units are trained as best they can when they went into the war. There is a lot going on there that you don't get to read or hear about involving all those units that have been trained.

Shaolinlueb
04-22-2005, 02:13 PM
frankly as an ex soldier that's a ridiculous statement. What soldier really is prepared, even with training for his first deployment. What unit is ready for their first deployment? However I believe that many of these units are trained as best they can when they went into the war. There is a lot going on there that you don't get to read or hear about involving all those units that have been trained.

a couple ex soldiers told me this. the army trains you how to kill, but doesnt train you how to stop. is that true man?

to me is seems nothing can prepare you for your first deployment live combat. me i rather be in a factory making ammunition for the soldiers then be on the front line shooting and killing people.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 02:16 PM
I think it's an individual thing. You get debriefed on your way out but a lot of people claim it's not enough. I think for some people they're right, it's enough.

ZIM
04-22-2005, 02:19 PM
Wasn't the first deployment about taking the country itself? That was open-country/desert highway, IIRC. Not urban.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:20 PM
frankly as an ex soldier that's a ridiculous statement. What soldier really is prepared, even with training for his first deployment. What unit is ready for their first deployment? However I believe that many of these units are trained as best they can when they went into the war. There is a lot going on there that you don't get to read or hear about involving all those units that have been trained.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I don't deny the fact that these guys are doing the best they can with what they have. And in no way am I saying that I know all about what is going on over there.

Being trained the best you can and being trained for the conditions you will experience are two different things.

Comander "Ok, you guys are going to go over there and fight. We're not sure what you'll be coming up against but we've trained you the best we can. So basically all of you are guinea pigs for the next group that we send over."

Soldier: "Sounds good, but what exactly are we fighting for?"

Commander "Well the weapons of mass..., Iraqi freed..., to make the world more safe..., I don't know but we can't stop now. Now go fight!"

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:24 PM
Wasn't the first deployment about taking the country itself? That was open-country/desert highway, IIRC. Not urban.

We started the invasion by bombing the McShizzle out of Bagdad. So that's urban.

ZIM
04-22-2005, 02:28 PM
We started the invasion by bombing the McShizzle out of Bagdad. So that's urban.
From the air. With GPS enhancement. Not urban combat for the units being discussed.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 02:28 PM
Yes, the battle was going to be mostly outside the urban areas. Usually the idea is that you try to draw your enemies out of the urban zones to minimize civilian losses. I'm sure it was expected that the battle would eventually move to the urban zones but like I said, we have well trained troops for those types of environments. The larger units are generally speaking, used for policing urban areas and cordoning them off for light units.
Believ it or not most combat units get some urban training, it's not as if the military has completley denied the fact that urban combat exists. Right now we have standard units fighting a general action type war against terrorists. While they do offensive patrols, those are still more defensive in nature, draw the enemy out then hit him hard. Meanwhile they use more specialized units for hunt and kill type operations and most of those you won't hear about because of the ay those battles sometime shave to be fought and the sensitivity of the information and tactics used.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:29 PM
Red, I ment no disrespect to you or to any other soldier. I support our troops. But I do not agree with the politics that started this war.

red5angel
04-22-2005, 02:31 PM
Red, I ment no disrespect to you or to any other soldier. I support our troops. But I do not agree with the politics that started this war.

I don't necessarily agree with the politics of the war either, however, it's possible to make this thing turn out better for all involved in the end if we do it right. It's too late to oppose it, it's all said and done, now it's time to figure out the best way to bring things around and get the Iraqi people on their feet without having to worry about the radicals taking control.

Chief Fox
04-22-2005, 02:38 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the politics of the war either, however, it's possible to make this thing turn out better for all involved in the end if we do it right. It's too late to oppose it, it's all said and done, now it's time to figure out the best way to bring things around and get the Iraqi people on their feet without having to worry about the radicals taking control.

I with you on that.

ZIM: We started bombing Bagdad on March 19, 2003. Bagdad "fell" and we entered the main part of the city on April 9, 2003.

ZIM
04-22-2005, 02:59 PM
ZIM: We started bombing Bagdad on March 19, 2003. Bagdad "fell" and we entered the main part of the city on April 9, 2003.
Which no one suspected would be so quick. I'd bet the US Army counted on OJT to do the job of training them up for it- albeit at a much slower pace.

Gotta be on my way. ciao all :cool:

GunnedDownAtrocity
04-22-2005, 06:30 PM
my mom drowns kittens.

wdl
04-22-2005, 09:55 PM
I don't necessarily agree with the politics of the war either, however, it's possible to make this thing turn out better for all involved in the end if we do it right. It's too late to oppose it, it's all said and done, now it's time to figure out the best way to bring things around and get the Iraqi people on their feet without having to worry about the radicals taking control.

Well said. At this point is history that is the most sensible way to approach it.

-Will

BibitClerus
04-22-2005, 10:40 PM
Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door
Twenty first century schizoid man

Blood rack barbed wire
Polititians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man

Christopher M
04-23-2005, 10:24 PM
I agrree that it's not all about me or you but we (the American tax payer) is paying for this war and what is the benefit, if any, to anyone?[/url]

Shiites and Kurds, that is -- the majority of the Iraqi population, get to live without torture and genocide. Does that count as a benefit?

TonyM.
04-24-2005, 07:22 AM
Gee, that cool! When can we look forwards to that for the States?

Christopher M
04-24-2005, 01:27 PM
To live without torture and genocide? You already do.

ZIM
04-25-2005, 07:40 AM
True. Everybody in Iraq has a family member touched by Saddam or his sons, and in a bad way. I read an estimate of how many Americans would have to be killed or tortured to be proportionally equal to the number done by in Iraq under Saddam - 3 million was the estimate.

Just to be sure I'm not assuming anything: How many people do you know who've been killed and/or tortured by the Gov't, TonyM.?

Chief Fox
04-25-2005, 08:07 AM
Shiites and Kurds, that is -- the majority of the Iraqi population, get to live without torture and genocide. Does that count as a benefit?

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I suppose will be spending another 300 trillion dollars to stop the suffering in Africa next.

ZIM
04-25-2005, 08:22 AM
I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I suppose will be spending another 300 trillion dollars to stop the suffering in Africa next.
:rolleyes: Sure will! Everybody *must* have a space program! And free health care! And if you can figure out another way to move the goalposts, just throw it out here, why don't you?

Dark Knight
04-25-2005, 09:16 AM
"a couple ex soldiers told me this. the army trains you how to kill, but doesnt train you how to stop. is that true man? "

No its not rue, we have objectives, we accomplish them. Then we move on to the next job, maybe take another objectice, protect an area or set up an intallation.

The Army does not "Train Killers" they train people to do their jobs and act responibly.

Something most non military people dont know is it is ilegal to give or follow an ilegal order.

So if your commander orders you to do something illegal, if you follow that order you will be prosecuted.