He's asking for a beating!

[SiuLumTao]

There is a guy who trains with me at a Wing Chun kwoon. I've known him since I started there last year; he has been a student there for 3 years and he also trains in Hung Kuen. I wouldn't say that he's a friend but certainly an associate of mine and a Kung Fu brother. Last week, he asked Sifu about sparring with someone outside of our kwoon. I guess what he actually wanted was to bring in someone from another style to spar with him at the kwoon. Keep in mind that he wanted to do this either before or after the regular training class, and he was going to have some kind of liability waiver drawn up for both he and the other person to sign, releasing Sifu of any responsibility.

Well, of course Sifu said no. Now I was present when Sifu told him this, but when Sifu told him no, he took the guy over to his (Sifu's) office. I couldn't hear what was being said nor did I try to eavesdrop. After class, the guy was very upset and I asked what was wrong. He said that Sifu told him that he didn't want any of his students sparring with someone of another style, and if the guy asked again then he would have to leave the kwoon.

Ok so that was last week. Now this guy came to class last night, and said he needed to talk to me. I spoke with him after class, and he said that he's going to spar anyway outside of the kwoon. I told him that's his business and between his concious and Sifu. But then he said something kind of disturbing. He said that he is tired of not testing his Kung Fu, so he is planning to go to different kwoons or martial art studios and openly challenge anyone there to fight him. I thought he was joking but he is dead serious!

In his opinion, he says that's the problem with a lot of martial arts these days. Students follow the Sifu but don't know if we are being taught anything useful, and if he's not learning the fighting skill that our Wing Chun promised, then he wants to find out now so that he can stop training and switch to a different style.

Now I can understand his point on that to a certain degree, but I think it's very disrespectful for him to go and challenge another school no matter what style. Even if the instructor shouldn't be teaching at all, it's dishonorable to the name of Wing Chun and the Martial Arts in general to go around making challenges like that. At least that's my opinion and I told him so. He said I was entitled to my opinion just like he's entitled to his, but he is still going to follow through with it.

I asked him when he planned to do this, and he said that he's thinking of starting this Friday evening, going to a different school each week until he either beats someone of every style here (and I'm in LA so of course there's a school in just about every style) or until he gets beaten. In which case he said he will stop training in Wing Chun completely and switch to a different style. He said that's the way they did things back in the day.

Is there anything I can say to him to talk sense into him, and make him stop this nonsense? I'm going to class in a little while so I hope he's there and maybe calmed down enough to listen to reason. :(

[Royal Dragon]

Let him do it, he will learn far more from it than you will from fretting over it.

[joedoe]

It isn't your problem. Let your sifu deal with the situation.

[rogue]

Sit him down, read him the kuen kuit and explain to him that the art of Wing Chun is a martial gift and shouldn't be soiled on challenge matches. It's like having a beautiful wife and pimping her out on some street corner. What's he gain by fighting inferior people? Nothing. Try to get that through to him.














I'm The Real Original Lucky Louie.

[Shaolinlueb]

dude, jsut tell him to make sure to break the sign over his knee.

seriously. let him do it. its his choice. between him and sifu.

[Royal Dragon]

Your freind will get dusted in an MMA gym, and be gone in 30 days to persue BJJ/Muy Tai no matter what you do, or say.

[Finny]

Make sure you send him to Tim Cartmell's place - check out www.shenwu.com for details.

I believe they have open mat sessions on Saturdays (3pm - 6pm) - anyone can come in and spar etc.

Ask for Meynard :D

[IronFist]

I agree with your friend. If you haven't tested it, how do you know if you can fight with it? Maybe your Sifu is afraid he can't fight non-WC people and that's why he got mad. I dunno.

But if I was learning something that didn't work I'd leave ASAP.

In my class (MMA), our teacher encouraged us to always test anything we wanted against anything we wanted. We were active against resisting opponents for 80-90% of the class. We knew exactly what we could and couldn't do, and what would work and what wouldn't.

[IronFist]

Your freind will get dusted in an MMA gym, and be gone in 30 days to persue BJJ/Muy Tai no matter what you do, or say.

Yes.

456789

[IronFist]

btw, first post is like this? I've got 3:2 odds this is a troll or another user name for a regular user.

If not, welcome to the forums.

[SiuHung]

Oh No! Please stop the guy from sparring!!! He might learn something!!!!!

[Mr Punch]

After three years, training two styles, and your sifu won't let him spar anyone from other styles? I would have to say I think your sifu is wrong.

However, that's beside the point. Your mate should have kept his mouth shut and done it elsewhere, or quit the school. Unless he wants to become a champion for other like-minded people in your school, in which case with a sifu like that he's ****ed anyway.

And your friend's going to go and challenge other schools instead of having a friendly sample lesson or something? He's either an idiot or twelve years old, or you're a troll! :D

[Becca]

Or it could be that that isn't what the Sifu said at all. Could be that the Sifu said, "Do it if that's what you want, but you aren't using my kwoon..." If said associate was trying to save face for what ever reason, he might have changed the story this way. While my school doesn't do the whole turnemant thing, neither sifu prohibits us from competing. But we don't get to use the kwoon to prepare other than the regular classes, either.

[sihing]

Your freind will get dusted in an MMA gym, and be gone in 30 days to persue BJJ/Muy Tai no matter what you do, or say.

LOL....Like MMA is the be all end all..One of our part time WC students mixed it up with the local MMA champ with no problems, so NO it is not "no matter what you do or say, you will join a MMA gym anyways"

[Becca]

:confused: Isn't that why Many sifu don't want thier students to go out and spar other styles?














;) :D

[SiuLumTao]

Well first let me say thanks for the replies, and second I am no troll (if I came here and started attacking other styles or posts then you could call me a troll, but I have done neither). As someone speculated earlier, I do post here under a different name but since I am known by some and have previously posted who my Sifu is, I am not going to use my regular name.

I did see the guy in class this evening and had a talk with him, and he said that he had reached this crossroad a while ago, of wanting to test himself and Wing Chun. I guess his little talk with Sifu only added fuel to the fire. I was planning to try and talk him out of it, not only to save him from embarrassing himself but also potentially giving a bad name to Sifu and/or the kwoon.

He said that when he goes to challenge another school, he won't say which kwoon he's from but he will claim to be a Wing Chun fighter. Although I'm not sure how he can claim to be a "fighter" when he's only sparred (as far as I know) people in our kwoon. Unless he's done so at his Hung Ga kwoon. So at least there is no way of Sifu being humiliated by this guy's actions, unless of course the guy tells him afterwards.

I'm not going to say anything to Sifu because I don't want to be known as a rat, and I guess I'll just let the chips fall where they may. I still say that's it's disrespectful to do this, but I guess we sometimes have to stand aside and let others learn their own lesson. :(

[sihing]

My Sihing had a situation similar to this years and years ago, only the difference was it was a friend of his that was doubting his abilities, so my Sihing asked Sifu what to do. My Sifu said to bring the friend into the kwoon and they should go at it there. Well this is exactly what happened, and although the fight lasted 20 minutes or so, more or less due to my Sihing's unwillingness to really damage his friend with strong punches and kicks(he was only a year and half student at this stage of his training), the friend eventually learned to respect my Sihing and his Martial Arts training. He learned a great lesson that day.

IMO if a student of mine wanted to test his abilities he would be free to do in my kwoon, with people watching or in private but someone like myself still there to make sure things don't get to out of hand. It's okay to of course want to test one's abilities and that should be done somewhere, sometime in the training process, but to go out and challenge another to prove something is not right IMO.

James

[Mr Punch]

Fair enough SLT.

I still think he's being a tit if he's gonna go in all hardcore and 'challenge' anyone. It must be better for him to go and ask for a friendly spar or a sample lesson.

[ghost5]

I understand his reasoning in wanting to try his skills. Our ideas along those lines are if you want to fight. fight. We have and do spar against other styles. We have an open floor policy on certain nights. All the people that come to these are people we know and are there for the fun and extra training.

Other schools (some not all) will let us come in and spar with them. Makes for a good change of pace. I really couldn't stop a student from doing a challenge if they were set on it but we found a way that it almost never comes up.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL....Like MMA is the be all end all..One of our part time WC students mixed it up with the local MMA champ with no problems, so NO it is not "no matter what you do or say, you will join a MMA gym anyways"

Reply]
If he's not sparring enough in his Wing Chun, and he goes into an MMA gym where they normally spar alot, he's going to get dusted. Even if he starts against guys with his level of experiance, they will just keep feeding him more guys untill he loses. He will then decide his style sucks, or his teacher sucks, and join the MMA gym and turn into yet another "Anti" Fu and aspound the almighty greatness of MMA.

[Chief Fox]

Sounds like the guy i just at a point where he just needs to move on. I believe you have to question and test what you've been taught, otherwise what's the point. I also think blindly following a style or sifu because it's what he says to do is a mistake.

[5 Venoms]

No offense to your friend, but maybe your Sifu told him that he wasn't ready to spar anyone outside of your school yet. Then again, isn't Wing Chun one of the styles that doesn't take very long to learn?

So if your friend has been training there for 3 years then I'd think by now he would be able to use it in a fight. Keep in mind even if he has perfect technique, if he hasn't sparred or fought anyone then he won't have the proper timing or footwork.

I'd say there are 3 possible scenarios in store for your friend:

A) He will go and issue his challenge at those other schools, and be laughed out of the building.

B) He might find that nobody is willing to fight him, for fear of a legal liability.

C) He will go and tick off the instructor, and seriously get his butt kicked.

One request: if your friend does follow through, please ask him to videotape it because I'm sure we'd all like to see what happens.

[red5angel]

Scream HIIIIIYYAAAAAAA!!! Then start hitting him. When you're done ask if he felt challenged. From that point on just randomly attack him like that dude on the Pink Panther.

[MasterKiller]

If he's not sparring enough in his Wing Chun, and he goes into an MMA gym where they normally spar alot, he's going to get dusted. Even if he starts against guys with his level of experiance, they will just keep feeding him more guys untill he loses. He will then decide his style sucks, or his teacher sucks, and join the MMA gym and turn into yet another "Anti" Fu and aspound the almighty greatness of MMA.

Have you ever been to an MMA class? Maybe they run things different in Chicago, but in Oklahoma/Texas I've had nothing but postive experiences with the MMA crowd.

Here's a little ditty of information: You can still be a kung fu fighter and work out with MMA people. The trick is, you have to be a fighter, not a talker.

[Reggie1]

Have you ever been to an MMA class? Maybe they run things different in Chicago, but in Oklahoma/Texas I've had nothing but postive experiences with the MMA crowd.

I've had the same experience w/ the MMA guys I know in my area. They aren't the big-headed egomaniacs that people make them out to be. Most are humble, hard-working guys who respect every art and don't badmouth anything.


Here's a little ditty of information: You can still be a kung fu fighter and work out with MMA people. The trick is, you have to be a fighter, not a talker.

GASP! You've got to be kidding! :D

[red5angel]

I predict 3 more months before MK calls hmself MMA.

[David Jamieson]

I don't know why you are so concerned?

Who cares if this guy wants to go to some open mat sessions. Good for him. Let him learn and try his stuff out.

If he gets smacked down so what, live and learn that's how it goes.

ps I agree with MK on his last statement. KF can mix it up with anyone so long as you have the correct attitude and intention. Gonna fight? Then go fight.

[Ray Pina]

Wouldn't you question your chess teacher if he wouldn't let you play chess with outsiders? Why not? If you play chess it's a natural thing to want to do, to compare your game.

Where are you located?

[Akhilleus]

Ya know it's funny...2/3 years ago I did something pretty similar to your friend...ie I called dojos in the area asking if anyone wanted to spar...only one of them actually ever worked out...the senseis probably thought I was a lunatic, which I guess I was...first of all, I am much older and wiser now...I realize there are some egomaniacs out there that could/would hurt me pretty badly...also, it could be viewed as a challenge and disrespectful, which i guess it was...I teach people myself now, and if somebody called the school with a similar request, I would turn them down for several reasons...one is if the guy asked me the way I used to ask instructors at other schools, I would probably assume that he has a few screws loose...two is the liability issue...three is it doesn't sound very friendly, the last thing I need is some ******* tool coming in trying to hurt me...

One time a kid did come into our school and issue a challenge...he said that he was a wrestler and would fight anyone in his weight class...unfortunately, not many of our fighters were there at the time or didn't know what was going on until after it happened, but basically one of our instructors told him he could only spar if he signed up to take the class...at first I was mad when I heard that our guy basically backed off...but that's actually the best thing to do from a legal standpoint nowadays...I mean what if I had been there, fought this kid, hurt him, then my Shifu gets sued and has to close his school all b/c I wanted to show some kid? Or what if this kid, whom I know nothing about, other than the fact that he came into the school looking for a fight, pulls a knife on me, and that was all she wrote?

EDIT: the word that got blanked out was suppose to be j a c k ***

[red5angel]

I think this is an issue where the instructor doesn't want this gy fighting because then he'd be representing him or his school, whether or not his intention is too. If you were teaching and found out one of your students, especially one that isn't all that good, is out trying to start fights in the martial community in your area, wouldn't it be a problem for you?

[Ray Pina]

When I open a school someday I'm going to put an "Open for Challenge" sign in the window nice and big and have a big book with the opening page some perfectly written Legal Mumbo Jumbo (written by a good lawyer) acknowledging that two martial artists want to test their stuff and free each other of all liability, etc. etc., etc. and film them as they read it and film them as they sign it and then film as I beat the **** out of them in front of my students.

I want this to be the first thing you see when you enter, sort of like that pulpit they have at a resturant where they greet you and check if you have a reservation.

[red5angel]

When I open a school someday I'm going to put an "Open for Challenge" sign in the window nice and big and have a big book with the opening page some perfectly written Legal Mumbo Jumbo (written by a good lawyer) acknowledging that two martial artists want to test their stuff and free each other of all liability, etc. etc., etc. and film them as they read it and film them as they sign it and then film as I beat the **** out of them in front of my students.

I want this to be the first thing you see when you enter, sort of like that pulpit they have at a resturant where they greet you and check if you have a reservation.

Sure but what does that mean? Can anyone come in and challenge anyone in your class? I assume you want people who are good representatives of your system fighting?

[Brad]

I don't understand why sparring people not from the WC school would be an issue if the guy is allready openly taking Hung Gar lessons somewhere else. I think you're not getting the whole story from your classmate. And challenging other schools is kind of extreme behaviour for someone who just wants to test their stuff out against other styles. He could just go to competitions or try to start some sort of sparring club. Lots of different options other than challenges. Yeah, people used to challenge each other, but they also used to get hurt pretty bad in the process (sometimes even killing each other). This aint old China :p

[Gangsterfist]

dude, jsut tell him to make sure to break the sign over his knee.

seriously. let him do it. its his choice. between him and sifu.

LOL that reminds me of:

"Dats right I broke your sign!"

"box cutter style"

/too obscure? Kung Faux ?

However, I think that roaming around challenging schools is asinine and disrepectful. If someone wants to work out with me and spar, I am cool with it as long as there is no ego, and I am comfortable with that person. Otherwise they can go play grab ass feed my ego somewhere else. That is because I don't want it escalating into something serious, and I want to avoid anyone getting permanent injury.

If he wants to test his wing chun skills have him go to Gary Lam's school of wing chun in LA (WSL lineage) and have him go work out with ernie, who is part of this forum. Erine is all about sparring and fighting and is very untraditional. I am sure your friend will get worked over, but maybe thats what he is looking for. Either way, he needs to drop his ego IMO.

Wing Chun is an art. Even though its about killing people easily and effeciently its still an art and its graceful. Going around being egocentric and issuing challenges to every other style is a disgrace to the art, and its a disgrace to your sifu. Your students do directly reflect upon you reguardless of the situation.

[PangQuan]

There is some stuff we are missing.

What generation is your Sifu. How old school is he?

This may be what some people mentioned, your Sifu may not feel that his student is ready to challenge other people. He may think his skill level is not high enough yet, and does not want some kid ruining his reputation.

I know my Sifu has some skill, you can see it in his hundred trophies and the way he moves and executes application on us. If he told me not to fight another school I would listen simply because I KNOW he has a very high skill level.

In some cases Sifu does know best. But it totally depends on WHO the Sifu is.

You dont want to blindly follow any teacher out there. Using common sense is a must. Im no fool. Im no kid. And I know a master when I see one in action. If your Sifu is similar to mine, I would heed his advice.

If hes just some 10 year western practitioner (meaning a few days a week at only a few hours a day), it would not hold as much weight. It all depends on the teacher.

Your friend of course is anxious to try out his skill. This is common. If your Sifu is a traditional chinese teacher, then his not wanting his student to challenge other styles after only 3 years is pretty common.

If your "friend" does go challenge people and gets whooped by some MMA guys, he will likely quit his CMA and go there. This just means he does not have what it takes to make it in the CMA world. TCMA is a very tough world it takes extreme patience and dedication.

TCMA has soooo much to offer it takes at least 15-20 years of straight dedication and love to master. Sure you can fight with it after just a few years but you will not be using Kung Fu. You will be poorly representing your style.

THIS is what your Sifu most likey is trying to avoid. Remember it is the style and lineage that is important to uphold and preserve. To use 25% of a system and claim to be a fighter of the style you are a bad example to that style everywhere.
This is how much kung fu has lost face, losers with just a few years of study claiming to be kung fu fighters, when they have no idea what a kung fu fighter really is.

Let him ruin his studies if he wishes, you cannot stop his idiocy.

[Ray Pina]

Why doesn't a senior, or your sifu, beat him pretty good and then say, "Why should you go out .... you can't even handle your classmates yet."

By the way, the sifu is doing the right thing. he has to tell the student "no." What if the student gets hurt? It looks like the teacher is sending him out to fight.

If the guy really wants to do this he should just keep his mouth shut and go do it.

[ninthdrunk]

I had an interesting thought on the subject. You hear lots of stories about students going around and taking all comers from other schools when they were in their teens and twenties. So naturally, those of us in martial arts think, "man that would be awesome. I should do that." I think we forget a lot of times that students traditionally started much earlier in life than nowadays. To put in the equivalent amount of training, the average student would be 30-40 by the time they were ready to go around throwing challenges to everyone. By that time, that's not a high priority in life.

Sorry, rambling. I thnk if he doesn't have the respect for your teacher to follow his wishes, then this is a student who you shouldn't be too worried about losing.

I agree, let him do it and see what happens.

[David Jamieson]

I had an interesting thought on the subject. You hear lots of stories about students going around and taking all comers from other schools when they were in their teens and twenties. So naturally, those of us in martial arts think, "man that would be awesome. I should do that." I think we forget a lot of times that students traditionally started much earlier in life than nowadays. To put in the equivalent amount of training, the average student would be 30-40 by the time they were ready to go around throwing challenges to everyone. By that time, that's not a high priority in life.

Sorry, rambling. I thnk if he doesn't have the respect for your teacher to follow his wishes, then this is a student who you shouldn't be too worried about losing.

I agree, let him do it and see what happens.

If you can't effectively use a style to handle yourself inside of 2 or 3 years then there is a real problem with the method and the way it is taught.

In fact, if you can't fight after 1 or 2 years there is a problem in how you are being taught.

Not saying you're gonna be the greatest and not saying you're gonna win or be some master of the style, but you should be able to effectively use some stuff in a relatively short period of time.

Even then, guys who trained from when they were little kids and are 50 now are still more tahn capable of getting their asses handed to them whether they are really good or not.

Fighting and the nature of it is dynamic and it is not in lockstep with the philosophies of a lot of kungfu players.

Just sayin

[PangQuan]

I have been thinking about this.

If your "friend" thinks that this style may be ineffective, is really quite simple what he needs to do to find out how much he can gain from you Sifu.

He needs to callenge the Sifu.

Then and only then will he see how effective your teachers system really is. Downside to this is possible expulsion. But if he does it right, he may develop respect from your teacher. But most likely not.

[SevenStar]

He said that Sifu told him that he didn't want any of his students sparring with someone of another style, and if the guy asked again then he would have to leave the kwoon.

Ok so that was last week. Now this guy came to class last night, and said he needed to talk to me. I spoke with him after class, and he said that he's going to spar anyway outside of the kwoon. I told him that's his business and between his concious and Sifu. But then he said something kind of disturbing. He said that he is tired of not testing his Kung Fu, so he is planning to go to different kwoons or martial art studios and openly challenge anyone there to fight him. I thought he was joking but he is dead serious!



first, any schools who tells you what your sifu told him would raise a HUGE red flag with me. MA are about testing. when you are holed up in your kwoon, only training with friends, you aren't truly getting any fighting experience. Also, I would question why he says this.

As for your friend, he doesn't have to walk around challenging schools.if you are friendly and ask to spar, they will usually oblige. Also, he can get amateur fights - I'm sure there are plenty in your area.

[SevenStar]

I have been thinking about this.

If your "friend" thinks that this style may be ineffective, is really quite simple what he needs to do to find out how much he can gain from you Sifu.

He needs to callenge the Sifu.

Then and only then will he see how effective your teachers system really is. Downside to this is possible expulsion. But if he does it right, he may develop respect from your teacher. But most likely not.


or he can fight other schools - he has his doubts because he isn't fighting anyone - he can't test himself. if he fights and loses, then he can draw two conclusions:

1. his style is ineffective
2. he sucks and/or doesn't know how to use what he is learning.

from there, he can make a decision abut leaving the school.

[SevenStar]

Why doesn't a senior, or your sifu, beat him pretty good and then say, "Why should you go out .... you can't even handle your classmates yet."

By the way, the sifu is doing the right thing. he has to tell the student "no." What if the student gets hurt? It looks like the teacher is sending him out to fight.

If the guy really wants to do this he should just keep his mouth shut and go do it.

wouldn't matter.... for one, they are in the same style. second, a senior or teacher SHOULD be able to beat you - they are *supposedly* better. that doesn't mean what you are doing would be super effective - it just means that they are better at it than you are. I have beaten people in the ring, but I can't beat my coach. so, I go out, even though I can't beat him yet.

heck, you don't even buy that yourself - were you able to beat your sifu when you entered that McThrowdown?

[SevenStar]

When I open a school someday I'm going to put an "Open for Challenge" sign in the window nice and big and have a big book with the opening page some perfectly written Legal Mumbo Jumbo (written by a good lawyer) acknowledging that two martial artists want to test their stuff and free each other of all liability, etc. etc., etc. and film them as they read it and film them as they sign it and then film as I beat the **** out of them in front of my students.

I want this to be the first thing you see when you enter, sort of like that pulpit they have at a resturant where they greet you and check if you have a reservation.

the thing is that it wouldn't prove anything, one way or another. Why? you'd have no takers... it's almost like making an internet challenge. Nobody really does the challenge match thing anymore. The way to make a name for yourself fighting wise is competition.

As far as just wanting to come by and spar, there shouldn't be a problem. We have guys from various gyms come see us. Some of us visit other ones as well. There is no charge for stopping by and training one day. If you want to spar while you're there, fine.

[Mr. Horse]

My sifu says the same thing: don't "spar " with people outside our style. I ask why. He said that it could cause problems. He also said that if you want to test your skills, you should challenge the guy not spar with him.

Our school does have an open door to challenges (no neon signs flashing in the window "Fights Welcome"). You want to train to there (practice our forms or your own) it is ok. It is just when it comes to fighting. If you want to test yourself, you fight or compete.

[rogue]

Will amybody here accept Phills challenge? (http://www.themartialist.com/challenge.htm)

[BentMonk]

I think the whole "don't spar with people outside your own style" attitude is absurd. Why shouldn't you? Sparring with other styles is just another way to broaden your knowledge. Note that I said "sparring". A challenge is not a sparring match, it's a fight. Going to another school and asking to do some friendly sparring is cool. If you walk into someone elses school and drop a genuine challenge for no other reason than to test your skills, that is disrespectful. JMO

[Gangsterfist]

the thing is that it wouldn't prove anything, one way or another. Why? you'd have no takers... it's almost like making an internet challenge. Nobody really does the challenge match thing anymore. The way to make a name for yourself fighting wise is competition.

As far as just wanting to come by and spar, there shouldn't be a problem. We have guys from various gyms come see us. Some of us visit other ones as well. There is no charge for stopping by and training one day. If you want to spar while you're there, fine.


Actually, there is a local teacher here in my hometown who happen to bad mouth one of the guys I train with. It almost came down to a challenge, until my other sifu (wing chun sifu) defused the situation to keep the peace.

Challenge matches do happen when people let their ego run wild. Not everyone is as level headed as you think 7*.

[IronFist]

I think the whole "don't spar with people outside your own style" attitude is absurd. Why shouldn't you?

Absolutely. If you get in a fight on the street, what are the chances the guy you're fighting is going to be of your same style? You better have experience with other styles at this point or you're going to be in a bad position.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, I have been thinking about this (Don't call the fire dpt, it's just me you smell burning). Me, i've gone against those of other schools. The old timmers here may remember posts of mine from back in 1998 or so when I fought a couple of Tom Saviano's students when Theresa was still his student (Did good till I was paired up with a gentile man by the name of Chris Hennegan, one tough SOB! and a credit to his teacher).

I have allways met, and mixed it up with anyone who I came in contact with. My long time freind Russ is a Kempo Black belt, and former Marine, I learned alot of Kung Fu in the park from a guy named Robert, and I spent another couple years working in the home of a Cook County sherif learning his brand of Long Fist, and some Sun style Bagua (Wish i'd taken THAT more seriously, I only retained some of the foot work).

Basically, I believe in mixing it up with other styles, and schools. BUT, I also recognise that to do that one must be well skilled in thier primary style FIRST!! The reason being, is you are never going to just walk into a school,spar and do good. They are not going to lose face by giving you a win. Instead, you will keep moving up thier ranks until you find someone more skilled than you, thus ensuring the school you challenged does not loose students. Even if you lose to the lower ranks, the seniors will find a way to best you. The when you are gone, those same seniors will turn you into a lesson, and start teachng the lower ranks "Why" They lost to you. You become a marketing tool, and a student retention tool. The smart school will also offer to teach YOU why you lost, and hopefully gain your buisness as well.

Now, from your teachers' perspective, he KNOWS this is how it works, and does not want to lose you as a student. Most will discourage sparring other schools unless you are really ready. They know you will be consitantly fed higher, and higher ranks untill you are emarrased. What THEY prefer is an off the street individual to come in, and make the challenge so that THEY can feed higher and higher ranks to him untill he's beat in an effort to reinforce the dedication of his own students, and possibly land a new one.

Now, if you are still a mid level student, and can fight well within your school, you still don't have the skill to mix it up with an outsider sucsessfully because you are a MID LEVLE STUDENT!!! You may have the moves, the technques, the footwork, and all that, but you don't have the *Experiance* to fly solo yet. The operative word here is "Yet". The time to start mixing it up with other schools is down the road, when you have become good in your current system. At this point, you may still be beat, but you will be looking to your OWN ART for the answers. A younger student's first thought is "My teacher sux, my art sux, I sux". Not wanting to Sux, he will very likely become disgruntaled and leave prematurely before his skills in is system reach thier peek. He will try to fly solo before he is ready. This is why many teachers discourage sparring other schools. It's a loss due to a miss match waiting to happen.

[TaoBoy]

Man, it's been a while since I've read - or posted - anything on this forum.
(You last visited: 07-14-2003 at 09:09 PM).
Some things never change.

I don't see why this question keeps coming up.

I'll make it short and sweet:
There's no use learning to fight if you don't know whether it's gonna work or not.
If you don't test it, you're missing the point!

Cheers, Adam.

[Ray Pina]

wouldn't matter.... for one, they are in the same style. second, a senior or teacher SHOULD be able to beat you - they are *supposedly* better. that doesn't mean what you are doing would be super effective - it just means that they are better at it than you are. I have beaten people in the ring, but I can't beat my coach. so, I go out, even though I can't beat him yet.

heck, you don't even buy that yourself - were you able to beat your sifu when you entered that McThrowdown?

You're right. I'm just giving a possible alternative. My thing now is just go out and not tell anyone until afterwards .... then maybe share the footage.

[Ray Pina]

the thing is that it wouldn't prove anything, one way or another. Why? you'd have no takers... it's almost like making an internet challenge. Nobody really does the challenge match thing anymore. The way to make a name for yourself fighting wise is competition.


I have to say, make a name for myself or not, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing now with Throwdowns and one-on-one fighting outside of competition. I like it. There's no waiting around all day like in a traditional tournament and there's no rounds so its less about conditioning then it is about knowing what you are capable of (energy wise) and managing it in relation to the guy you're fighting.... also, 4 oz gloves kind of speeds things up .... no one is going to stand outside and keep getting hit if outclassed so they charge in and determine the outcome within 4 or 5 passes. I like this.

With that said though, I would like to talk to my coach about letting me go compete in MMA by the Fall just to get some sort of record.

[Face2Fist]

I have to say, make a name for myself or not, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing now with Throwdowns and one-on-one fighting outside of competition. I like it. There's no waiting around all day like in a traditional tournament and there's no rounds so its less about conditioning then it is about knowing what you are capable of (energy wise) and managing it in relation to the guy you're fighting.... also, 4 oz gloves kind of speeds things up .... no one is going to stand outside and keep getting hit if outclassed so they charge in and determine the outcome within 4 or 5 passes. I like this.

With that said though, I would like to talk to my coach about letting me go compete in MMA by the Fall just to get some sort of record.


i heard of these throwdowns before, whats the deal with them? is it full contact? and what style of fighting is it?

[PangQuan]

I think fighting other styles is fine. The only problems I have with this particular situation are these.

1) Your "friend" is an idiot.

2) He say's he's going to challenge other styles and if he loses to them he will switch his style to that.

3) No matter what style he challenges there will be someone from that style that WILL beat him.

4) He is destined to change styles every couple of weeks, in search of the perfect style, and eventually will end up at the original school he started at when he goes full cirlce and challenges his original Sifu's school.

5) Your "friend" is an idiot.

This is not just about fighting for this guy, he wants to find the "BEST" style. And anyone here who has a smidgen of experience with martial arts knows this is impossible. He is destined to go from style to style searching for what is the best and all the time if he just remained focused and disciplined he would be able to develop good form, regardless of style.

[FatherDog]

he's going to spar anyway outside of the kwoon. He said that he is tired of not testing his Kung Fu,

Students follow the Sifu but don't know if we are being taught anything useful, and if he's not learning the fighting skill that our Wing Chun promised, then he wants to find out now so that he can stop training and switch to a different style.


This is completely reasonable.



so he is planning to go to different kwoons or martial art studios and openly challenge anyone there to fight him. I thought he was joking but he is dead serious!

I asked him when he planned to do this, and he said that he's thinking of starting this Friday evening, going to a different school each week until he either beats someone of every style here (and I'm in LA so of course there's a school in just about every style) or until he gets beaten. In which case he said he will stop training in Wing Chun completely and switch to a different style. He said that's the way they did things back in the day.

This is deeply stupid.


he didn't want any of his students sparring with someone of another style, and if the guy asked again then he would have to leave the kwoon.

This is a sign your sifu is teaching you crap.

[Gangsterfist]

well just for counter argument sake why don't boxers fight martial artists? They fight other boxers? Why don't MMA guys spar with kung fu guys? They want to go to the ground?

Working out and sparring with people there are always rules of engagement, and in sporting events like UFC, Pride, Boxing, Wrestling, etc., there are rules and regulations.

Why don't you see boxer's working out with capoera (sp?) guys to improve them for their next fight?

Don't get me wrong, I like sparring and working out with anyone from any style as long as I can trust them not to serioulsy hurt me. To me sparring is not about working out with different styles (which I do spar other styles, and have even stfictly worked out with people with ground fighting only) but its about working out with people you can trust. I have friends in numerous styles and I work out with them, and I know they won't try to poke my eye out, or break my knee cap. Sparring is not real fighting, its still friendly in my mind and should be kept that way. I only truly would ever spar anyone near full contact that I trusted wouldn't permanently hurt me.

Challenging other people to fights is not sparring, to me its real fighting which means anything goes, and that you cannot trust that the other person won't seriously mess you up.

Your friend should probably go out and make friends to test his skills and learn some stuff rather than be an arrogant arse and make challenges. Part of kung fu, and fighting is self discovery, if you have never ever once tested what you know under pressure how will you know it works? This has nothing to do with the system you train, it has to do with how the individual reacts under pressure.

[Ben Gash]

Umm, I'd just like to point out that sparring isn't fighting, OK?
Also, I find it kind of funny that people are saying that challenges would dishonour Wing Chun, when Wing Chun made it's name off the back of challenges by Yip Man's students.

[FatherDog]

Why don't MMA guys spar with kung fu guys?

Umm... they do. There's lots of video of MMA guys sparring with kung fu guys, and several kung fu guys on this very forum spar and work out regularly with MMA guys.

Think a little before you post.

[David Jamieson]

I regularly spar with other guys from other kungfu styles, karate styles, mma-ists, boxers etc. I have to say it has only done one thing. IMPROVED MY GAME 10 FOLD!! lol

Seriously, it is a good exercise to play with others and it teaches you a lot about your leaks and where you need work.

I wouldn't recommend it for buck noobs, but if you got a a few years training in a given style you should try it out if it is a MARTIAL art.

My ground game still needs work :( lol, I'm always saying that. I need to fight more weaklings to get some confidence up or something lol.

[Cezve]

I agree there is nothing wrong with sparring other styles. Every match is an experience. Especially when you get your a$$ kicked :rolleyes: . But I think this guy has the wrong attitude and motivation.
I'm new in MA. Just a year or so. Although I dont do much sparring for now, i go other places that teach martial arts.Watch what they learn and compare it with my training and the stuff i know. (This helps when trying the figure out the applications of a new thing i learned.)
when you explain your intention nicely, not many of them say no.