Tai Chi and Russian Systema

[shaolinboxer]

Has anyone else noticed that systema, which is gaining ground as a popular and "devestatingly effective" art, is based on chi/ki manipulation techniques?

Why is it that systema has suddenly poped up with instant credentials? Is is because they simply use different terminology?

This system seems similar to aiki-jujutsu.

Any thoughts?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I have seen advertised a few years ago but I don'y know enough about it to comment on it, I wouldn't mind getting hold of some info. on it as I would like to understand its orirgins. From what I gather it seems like an internal - ish fighting art. I have seen the adverts by Rob Poyton in UK martial arts mags advertising it.

[Chris McKinley]

A few years ago, someone told me that they had found this system, Systema, which looked to them much like Baguazhang in the way it treated multiple opponents, and sent me the video. At least from that video, I can't really see the comparison to Aikijutsu. To me, it looked more like a cross between Pentjak Silat, only with a more fluid touch, and John Perkins's Attack Proof methods. Certainly different from what's usually seen, but some of the stuff seemed fairly wise tactically.

The portion of it that I got to see didn't include the full scope of true internal mechanics found in the neijia arts, but, like several other "hybrid" arts, enough was there to make it formidable if used by a skilled, experienced practitioner. I didn't like EVERYTHING I saw (keep in mind this is only from video), but then I never do, even when I'm watching a neijia vid. What I liked most about it and found most refreshing was that Vlad Vasiliev was actually doing something different from most external arts tactics. To me, a lot of the usual stuff starts to look pretty similar after a few years. The Japanese stuff is usually some variation of Karate or some variation of Jujitsu. The Korean stuff is pretty much TKD or Hapkido, which itself is exceedingly similar to JJ most of the time. We've all seen the ubiquitous Boxing/Muay Thai/BJJ combo and its close cousins, as well as the JKD/Kali approach. All of this stuff can be good; don't get me wrong at all. I train a lot of it myself. My point is that many of us in the U.S. martial arts community are pretty familiar with it. The Systema stuff simply "looked" different. I have no idea how it stacks up tactically, having never touched hands with one of its exponents.

[Stranger]

Systema has some material in common with aikijujutsu, an art which I greatly respect, but there is also quite a bit that seems different.

There is a lot of energy and sensativity work for both destructive and healing purposes. There are many exercise that work to develop this energy.

The "instant credentials" are largely due to Mikhail and Vladimir's complete willingness to share their knowledge, which is deep. Nothing new about that, just rare.

I've never met a person who actually trained in person with either of these men that did not walk away impressed with their knowledge, nice people too.

[Leonidas]

I thought everyone had him pegged as a Grade A maniac, for his references to Psychis Energy or whatever it's called. Is it supposed to be the same as Chi, Bioenergy, ESP............ what is it?

[Stranger]

Asking me to explain it would be like asking a KF practitioner with very little experience to explain jing or chi.

He has seminars in NYC fairly regularly.

If you want to judge his skills without meeting him that is fine, but it is not my purpose in life to defend what we do on the internet. I have learned it is pointless.

[IronFist]

Some guys at www.dragondoor.com 's message board know about sytema. In fact, there's a huge thread about it right now.

Click here, good thread (http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/tpost.pl?smessage=67574)

IronFist

[Kempo Guy]

Chris and Stranger,

Not to disagree with you guys.
My old Aikijutsu teacher mentioned specifically that the principles utilized in Systema is very similar to the concept of Aiki as used in Aikijutsu (Daito Ryu). He also attended some seminars to feel the techniques... Anyway, just wanted to share that with you guys.

I'd be curious to hear why you guys don't think it's similar to Aikijutsu.

KG

[Stranger]

I have felt aikijujutsu and have felt Systema at the hands of Vlad. I have also seen other people with similar training backgrounds realize this same differences, whiel admitting similarities.

People who do not train in Systema regularly tend to see it in terms of what they know (ie. it looks like this or it looks like that).

My background in Japanese arts I find is not hindering my progress in Systema, but it is different enough that I feel like a beginner. I am constantlly being corrected for relying too much on what I have been exposed to in the past rather than moving how my instructor would wish.

Is there a common ground in principles? Yes, harmony and softness. I'm not saying it is like comparing apples to oranges (more like apples to pears or oranges to some other citrus fruit or maybe even as close as comparing different types of apples to each other). There is enough different, however, that they are definitely not the same thing.

[Leonidas]

Hey Stranger, you know a class in NYC, i want to check it out for myself, and i didn't mean to diss Vlad. I dont know him so.......

[Stranger]

159 West 25th Street 2nd floor
(201)768-9712
Instr. Guy Velella

[Chris McKinley]

Kempo Guy,

While I've never trained in Aikijutsu per se, I'm pretty familiar with the overall flavor of it, having trained in Aikido, Baguazhang, the Dumog of Kali, and BJJ. The stuff I saw of Systema had a very different look to it then Aikijutsu. Firstly, not much of it had anything to do with joint locks whatsoever. You have to remember, the tape I saw was on fighting multiple opponents, so there's not going to be much joint locking going on anyway. Secondly, the stuff I saw was much more flowing and loose than the typical Japanese take on it.

Again, I haven't really given you much of anything to agree or disagree with. I haven't trained the system, I was only giving my particular impressions of what I saw of a small portion of the style on a videotape, so my assessment of it probably isn't worth the pixels it's typed on.

[NafAnal]

I've seen mikhail's systema and felt one of his punches.... i've never felt a punch like it before. Got the impression he was using only a tiny fraction of his power. That guy's got some good stuff. regardless of where it comes from.

I know there's a little controversy about systema out there. The russians seem to think the chinese used russian bodyguards and consequently the chinese systems are based on the russian art... I can't see why the chinese would employ foreign "white devil" guards but never mind. I'd like to see some evidence either way.

There's also some other things out there regarding systema's true origins, but it's all heresay, however i have some first hand stuff which is interesting.

He did some no touch knockdown but it literally is clever use of psychology and making your opponent fall over himself. It wont work against someone who's closing his eyes, having said that mikhail is very good at it. Not too practical on a street level though.

They talk a lot about drawing your power from the light or dark side, from the heavens or from hell. Apparently from what i gathered from a bad translator, chi is use of the dark side or something.... Fascinating stuff would have liked to have trained for longer but it doesn't look like he'll be doing another uk seminar any time soon.

[Kempo Guy]

Chris,

Aiki in Aikijutsu does not necessarily have anything to do with jointlocks. It can be applied against a punch or whatever and does not require any twisting of joints... but that's a totally different subject.

If you ever get a chance, take a look at tapes of Seigo Okamoto sensei of the Roppokai. You will see what I mean.

The Aiki in Daito Ryu is quite different than the "Concept" of Aiki in Aikido. It is nothing like the concept of Irimi/Tenkan i.e. tai-sabaki.

KG

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Anyone familiar with the Russian Systema? I find it sharing some of the Tai Chi principles.

Cheers,
John

[Blacktiger]

Yep sure am our teacher works it in with our training...Its great.

There is a rumour that a famous Bagua Master was in Russia years and years ago and it is said he taught Stalin's elite body guards or something.
I study Liu He Zi Ran Men Kung Fu and our teacher constantly finds techniques that are the same as ours. Systema is big on all the internal energy side of things as well, have you seen their videos they are great!

So yeah its all about taking your opponents energy and giving it back ten fold and absorbing hits, being really supple and relaxed, no tension.
Its like Tai Chi, Bagua lots of the chinese arts

:D

[Buddy]

To me it looks like drunken style mixed w/taiji. However it lacks a constant peng connection.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Its like taiji in some aspects but can never achieve the same things as taiji.
The main reason is that their model is very different, they take great pains to make sure that it is so.

I too am struck by the similarities to taiji and some of the same effects, and practices when compared. Having met a friend who did some systema I would have to say its very different.

They have no concepts or idea of shen, yi or qi, totally different model and explanations for the why and how things happen. Having said this I feel it’s a very cool art taught in a realistic way that most people can grasp maybe a little more easer then taiji :cool:

[bob10]

As some of you may know I spent soem years in TCC before coming to Systema.

Initially, I thought they were very similar. As my experience deepened, I think less so. Of course there are some commonalities, but the underlying concepts and training methods are somewhat different. Use of "floating root" is probably the most obvious.

Blacktiger wrote "There is a rumour that a famous Bagua Master was in Russia years and years ago and it is said he taught Stalin's elite body guards or something. "

That's a new one on me. Mind you I've heard so many things - Chinese emperors using Russian bodyguards, Ueshiba studying Bagua, etc, etc who knows what to believe. In some repsect Bagua is probably the closest CMA to the System but there are still many differences.


Bamboo Leaf wrote: "Its like taiji in some aspects but can never achieve the same things as taiji."

Interesting - which things would you say?

"They have no concepts or idea of shen, yi or qi"

Quite naturally, as they are Chinese concepts. It seems the System's philsophical roots lie more in Orthodox Christianity than anything else, which of course has its own concepts.

There is a nice article from a Taiji guy who attended one of our workshops at:

http://www.bath-taichi.co.uk/blog/2005/01/systema-and-tai-chi.html

I think he captured it well

cheers

Rob

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Bob,

Reading the taiji comments my thoughts:

(Rather than having a solid base to work on the Systema exponent pivots around the solar plexus. Depending upon the type of attack they are responding to this sometimes results in the feet wobbling about all over the place and the body rising up, both things that should be an anathema to Tai Chi practitioners.)

maybe in his idea of taiji, our or in my work we follow (one part moves all parts move) the body moves very much like the systema people there is no fixed point as he seems to suggest in rooting.

( These are things we train not to do, so it was unfamiliar territory for me. You'd think (from a Tai Chi perspective) that having no firm base like this would make your strikes loose power, or you'd have to rely on local arm strength for them, but I was impressed by the way Rob could make use of this floating root to avoid an attack and still generate plenty of body power in a wave like motion as a return strike.)

again his idea of taiji seems to be pretty basic if he does not understand how to genrate or use the others power in this way ( he does not understand the idea of empty and full). There are things that you or anyone else not practicing taiji will not be able to do because of the differnces in models and idelogy used, certain aspects just wont develop nor be there to use. These are some of the higher level aspects which I don’t really want to talk about on line as it would just cause to much conterversy and detract from a good post.

As I noted from my brife contact with my friend and the small clips I have seen on line I am always struck by the simularites. Reading and feeling my friend’s movement it is indeed different.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(They have no concepts or idea of shen, yi or qi"

Quite naturally, as they are Chinese concepts. It seems the System's philsophical roots lie more in Orthodox Christianity than anything else, which of course has its own concepts.)

These are not concepts but names for physical and mental manifestations that can be trained and used, with out them taiji becomes much like any other MA probably less effective since it is built around developing, and using these aspects :cool:

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

I think systema has alot of internal theories and i think Vlad is one of the most unique people to walk the face of this earth due to knowledge and the way he can apply his system against most attacks as well counters.

I see alot of resemblance of systema in my internal YKM forms as well Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurngs soft body and natural footwork like vlad can do.

I would love to meet up with you for yum cha one day and chat regarding your Taiji and principles if you like to please feel free to call me or email. If you aint busy that is?


Garry YKM