Wing Chun sparring Clips

[wingchunner]

These are some clips of Carl and myself doing some sparring with my colleagues.

http://wing-chun.nu/cwc_video_sparring.htm

Enjoy!

Marty

[AndrewS]

Ummm, dunno if I'd call that sparring.

The chi sao looked pretty fluid for everyone playing, but extremely cooperative.

And the platforms? While resticting footwork can be a good attribute builder, and I've done my time on balance apparatus, all that seems to do is re-inforce not solving problems with a step, rather than challenging balance. You might want to try building some I beams- 2 parallel 1x4"s connected by a 1x4" with slide apparatus to adjust distance between the two. This does the same thing as the platform, but doesn't let you make little cheater steps, and the dropoff is less dramatic, which has some advantages.

Sorry to b*tch, I'll try to find something constructive to say when I have a little more time.

Andrew

[hunt1]

If this is what you call sparring then could you post a clip of what you call chi sao?

[t_niehoff]

Hence why I don't like the term "sparring" -- it means many things to many different people, most often some variation of "game that has some small relationship to fighting."

[Wong]

Create bad habet. Only push not continue action. Need close down.
thank for clip. Good to sea other.

[SAAMAG]

Real classy vids. Did you think we would be impressed with how little control you have smacking around your lessor skilled "opponents"?

If you're a higher level student, you shouldn't be asking "are you okay" as many times as you did.

[John2004]

I was going to show my friends, who are interested in wing chun,
this forum, but now I'm not.
I'm embarassed. I don't want people to think the videos here
is representative of wing chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Marty: 2 questions

The man who volunterred to host the May event I proposed is your sifu, Carl Dechiara...is that correct?

Is that Carl in the vids wearing the red hat?

[YungChun]

Sparring?

Love to hear Kenneth Chung's impression of those clips.

Very impressed with Carl but not the way you thought.

[black and blue]

So that's Carl Dechiara, the man Red5Angel has so much to say about....

disappointed. It will sound nasty saying it, but he looked very standard indeed.

:(

I don't know why I was expecting more, but I was. Have seen many people with better position, use of body, stepping (heavy stepping here that looked dead) and better use of hand positioning.

Oh well...

[Matrix]

Real classy vids. Did you think we would be impressed with how little control you have smacking around your lessor skilled "Hey Van,
I'm with you. It's quite sad, really.

By the way, the clips with Carl are not sparring, nor are they chi sao, IMO.
I would classify it as being a bully, to put it politely....

Like you said B&B, "disappointed" seems to be an appropriate comment.

Victor, have fun in Cleveland. :p

Peace,

[Ultimatewingchun]

You've read my mind, Bill (Matrix)...

I now know that it was Carl Dechiara in the red hat - and the proverbial schoolyard bully is exactly how he comes off in the vids.

Setting guys up for a big pounding (punching, kicking, palm striking way too hard)...guys who don't seem to have any clue about what's coming - and no real skills to stop it even if they did know.

(And the fact that they were confined to a 4' by 4' platform only served to set them up even more - as their mobility was severely hampered).

I've already told Marty (wingchunner) how shocked I am by these vids; and I now find the situation to be a bit of a dilemma. I actually didn't get to see any of the vids until last night - but one of my top guys, Myron Young, (who appeared with me on my vids) called me yesterday morning to say that he can come to Cleveland after all...so I now have two of my very best guys (Michael Mundy is the other) who are willing to come...and I'm confident that the three of us are not only capable of taking care of ourselves individually - but are more than willing to watch each other's back as well.

But it's sad that I even have to say that...

and what I also find ironic is that Carl and Marty added a few points to the original 10 Point Proposal...one of them being this:

12.) No one is to come to prove anything. Mean people or people with bad attitudes are not welcome and will be asked by the group to leave.

AND HOW DO YOU ASK THE HOST OF THE EVENT TO LEAVE HIS OWN HOUSE ???

...Since he appears to be exactly the type of guy he describes in point #12 !!!

I'm going to have to show these vids to Mike and Myron, and we'll need to discuss the implications of this very thoroughly.

Furthermore: If anyone else who planned on coming to Cleveland have any concerns - please feel free to email me at (wingchun@usa.com) to discuss the matter...or you can post something on this thread - whatever works for you.

[wing_nut]

Sparring with a sifu that gives you no chance is no way to learn.
In one of the clips, the lesser skilled student easily gets hit without a good attempt to cover himself, then Carl (knowing he can get in with that shot) fires off a second hit with way more intensity. How do you learn in that environment?
I also noticed how Carl is constantly repeating "sorry", like it's a bad habit.

[Matrix]

In one of the clips, the lesser skilled student easily gets hit without a good attempt to cover himself, then Carl (knowing he can get in with that shot) fires off a second hit with way more intensity. How do you learn in that environment? Exactly. By the way this happens more than once.
One shot to the head (Carl&Steve 7) and one kick(Carl&Steve 9).
What I find most disturbing is that Carl seems to guide the student to let him hit him even easier. In one clip(Carl&Steve 4), he's telling the guy to use less force, when the student complies, he strikes him. Nice lesson. :rolleyes:

This student is not at a level where he has a hope in he11 of defending himself.
I see an Ego trip in progress.

I'm sorry to be so critical. I just think a teacher has some responsibilty to never abuse his superior position/skill/power with a student.

[Matrix]

and what I also find ironic is that Carl and Marty added a few points to the original 10 Point Proposal...one of them being this:

12.) No one is to come to prove anything. Mean people or people with bad attitudes are not welcome and will be asked by the group to leave.

AND HOW DO YOU ASK THE HOST OF THE EVENT TO LEAVE HIS OWN HOUSE ???

...Since he appears to be exactly the type of guy he describes in point #12 !!!

Victor,
I don't think there's anything "ironic" about this at all.
You, Mike, Myron, Phil Redmond and other attendees are skilled players. You would not sit still for these sort of tactics, and your skill would be more than a match for him, IMO.

Bullies don't pick fights with their superiors.

[wing_nut]

An instructor should have the ability to drop the ego and be constructive by allowing the student to recover and get shots in.
Not reinforcing the students mistake by hitting again and harder.

[Matrix]

This would be true, IF the "instructor" has a primary objective of teaching the student some skills, as opposed to demonstrating their own "superiority".

[wing_nut]

I know what you mean Matrix. There seems to be lots of schools like that out there. I've seen and heard of schools where the sifu/sensei/head instructor wont commonly spar with anyone. But, if and when they do, they give out a _ _ _ _ kickin for a quick moment and walk away. And I'm talking about with a smaller, weaker, or less skilled student.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I appreciate your comments, Bill.

It's not my safety that I worry about - not at all. But I just don't want to see this event get ugly. Perhaps I need to exchange some emails (or a phone call) with Carl directly...just to clear the air.

And get some more feedback from other folks planning to attend as well.

[Matrix]

There seems to be lots of schools like that out there. I've seen and heard of schools where the sifu/sensei/head instructor wont commonly spar with anyone. But, if and when they do, they give out a _ _ _ _ kickin for a quick moment and walk away. And I'm talking about with a smaller, weaker, or less skilled student.The names may change, but the game is the same. :rolleyes:
We have to realize that this sort of thing goes on in all aspects of life. Some people like to use their power and position to manipultate others. I guess martial arts, by it's very nature, seems to attract more than it's fair share of these types.

[Matrix]

It's not my safety that I worry about - not at all. But I just don't want to see this event get ugly. Perhaps I need to exchange some emails (or a phone call) with Carl directly...just to clear the air.Hey Victor,
It would be the only fair thing to do. I guess we're judging him without any chance to state his position. It just looks ugly from where I'm sitting.

BTW, I'm not worried about your safety per se. I'm confident you can handle yourself. It's just best to avoid trouble if you can.

[YungChun]

Scary stuff because it is clear to me that when he does what he does in the vids it is no accident.

This one in particular:

http://www.workav.net/cwc_video/Carl&Steve7.mpg

It appears that he is getting his ya ya's off time and time again in the vids, much to his own amusement.

No one is coming to his defense here as of yet either, but I fail to understand why these guys submit to this.

[hunt1]

No one is coming to his defense here as of yet either, but I fail to understand why these guys submit to this.


They submit because they have bought into the story that Ken Chuns wing chun is better than everyone elses and that Carl is a top student of Ken. Therefore this must be real wing chun.

I am so glad to see so many object to his blatant cheap shotting and bulling of his own students. I was worried that these vids represented an accepted way of chi sao and of teaching.

[Ultimatewingchun]

After reflecting upon all of this a bit - and after talking to some people...I've decided that I definitely WILL go to the event in Cleveland - and go without ANY reservations. I sent a private message to Marty expressing how I feel about Carl's behavior within his vids - and I'm sure that Marty has told Carl what I, and others, have said about it on this thread...

so I can't possibly imagine that we all would be showing up in Cleveland 3 weeks from now without Carl knowing by then what people are thinking; nonetheless, I will email Marty again and ask him to forward a message to Carl...

to the effect that REGARDLESS OF WHO IT IS - all 14 points will be observed (including #12)...as it should be obvious that all those who have signed onto this event EXPECT the 14 points to be in force.

I now know of at least 10 people coming to this event who feel exactly the same way I do - and they are willing to let their views be known in whatever form is appropriate at any given moment.

So I don't see the need to further publicly criticize Carl or his vids at this point in time. What's done is done.

Let's move on.

[Neo]

Just catching up and notice that number 7 clip is now unavailable. Hmmmm :confused:

[wingchunner]

You guys crack me up.

The video clips show maybe a total of 4 min. worth of video of at least a half hour lesson. Carl WAS teaching him. In those clips Steve responded incorrectly to the initial contact and Carl was able to shut him down right away. I've been with Carl over 12 years now. Carl does hit hard at times. Why shouldn't he? We are studying a martial art. In my 12 years I have never been seriously injured. The maximum injuries I have sustained would be maybe a bloody nose, cut lip, or bruise. And usually (except for the bruises) the injuries were caused by students who couldn't control themselves or I couldn't control them because my technique was sloppy; not Carl.

This isn't what people might normally call sparring (reverting back to my kenpo and Shaolin tiger Kungfu training days) where you strap on the "sparring gear" and have a couple rounds for a minute or two. Granted we kind of do that a little maybe in preparation for a tournament. But, realisticly, in a fight where I have to defend myself, I want to shut the person down as soon as possible and take them out as soon as possible. I don't want the fight to last more than 5 to 10 seconds.

Sparring uses Chi Sao, but Chi sao isn't sparring. As soon as hands touch you should be doing "sticky hands". In otherwords, it's not like "Ok. let's get into double arm position and roll for three times and then lets go at it.", like in my clips. No. As soon as hands touch it should be "on".

As far as the amount of power Carl hits with... Steve is no spring Chicken and has trained with Carl for quite a while now. So, anyone who trains with Carl knows that when you leave yourself open (or do poor technique) you will get hit, some people harder than others, depending on the person and how they have communicated how hard they can be hit and how hard the "want" to be hit. Obviously, Steve can "take" a hit. I can "take" a hit. In fact I "want" to be hit (by Carl, and Ken). I want to feel the power that Carl can send into me. Why? Because my brain processes it and I can work towards duplicating the same type of energy. Not only that, I can figure out how and where I can hit the person. Many people who have attended Ken's seminars have been "in the line" to receive one of Ken's hits. Ken doesn't hit everyone the same, but he sends enough in so that way people can receive and really feel the energy that he has. When Ken comes and gives the seminars at our school everyone loves to feel this. Why? Because that energy becomes a part of themself. It's the same with Carl. I allow Carl to hit me so I can feel it and internalize his energy. Carl's not a bully. You don't hear Steve say "please don't hurt me... Don't hit me so hard...etc." No. Time after time, Steve gets right back onto the platform to try it again and to get it right.

Carl does let you "feel" when you are doing techniques. He leads you to correct positions and does it time and time again. Then, after doing that he lets you try it out. If you do it correctly, he'll let you "get" him. If you do it incorrectly, he'll let you feel what can happen. Why? Because in a real situation if you make an incorrect move, if you're lucky you can recover easily; if you're not, then you're dead, or hopefully something less severe. (Either way if the guy gets lucky and gets a shot in, or I make a mistake if the technique isn't too severe, having been hit pretty hard every now and then, perhaps I can look at the guy and say, "Is that all you got?")

So, in a nutshell:

Carl intertwines letting student's feel when they're doing techniques correctly and when they're not.
Carl definitely doesn't beat his students up, but he can definitely hit hard.

Marty

[black and blue]

I have no problem with the contact - in our classes people were also given a taste of the hit. So for me I didn't relate to the bullying aspect some spoke of.

But if the chap taking the hits was experienced then again, I'm disappointed as anyone who has triained hard for a few years should be better than that if the teacher is worth his salt.

I was also disappointed with Carl, who I think didn't look all that skilled.

But my disappointment won't interest you guys and why should it. I don't live near you and am not looking to train with you. I just expected more, as I'd heard Carl was a good and longstanding student of Ken's.

:confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Marty:

Making people "stand in line" so that they can see (or feel) what it's like to be hit or kicked by me is not how I teach. I don't really see the value in that - unless the goal is just to be able to hit people HARD. (But that's not my "goal"...or my "intention").

Sure , occasionally a student may take a shot without any protective gear being used - but I always try to do it with CONTROL. (And sometimes it's ME taking the shot). On the other hand, if we've decided to work with POWER (and yes, I can hit and kick hard too - along with hundreds of other people I've met through the years)...

if we're going with power...then we pad up. This way it's a level playing field and injuries are avoided.

As far as people hitting as soon as they touch - I have no problem with that. I don't consider that chi sao (and I don't consider it sparring either)...but I have no problem with it. That can be part of one's close infight training...and we do that kind of thing from time to time.

But it's not really sparring, imo...because it's very limited (ie.- you and your opponent are ALREADY past kicking range, ALREADY past long range striking, and ALREADY past a range wherein various types of angles, feints, arm movements, and footwork can be used to offset, confuse, flank, and counter the wing chun "rush to touch and hit.")

It has it's function, as I said...but a limited one. And the fact that it's done on a 4' by 4' platform is also VERY artificial...since the whole purpose of the platform, it seems to me - is to limit the mobility of the person you are trying to "touch and hit".

This is by no means always going to be the case when fighting in the real world. So it's best to spend most of your time training to go up against someone who has more mobility and range of motion at his disposal.

[Matrix]

But if the chap taking the hits was experienced then again, I'm disappointed as anyone who has triained hard for a few years should be better than that if the teacher is worth his salt. B&B,
I assumed that Steve was a neophyte. He certainly looks clueless. If he is "experienced" then once again, I concur with your comments.

[Matrix]

The video clips show maybe a total of 4 min. worth of video of at least a half hour lesson. So, out of the entire 'lesson', this is the section that was chosen to be posted on your website. Interesting choice. It's also interesting that the clip in question is no longer available.


Carl does hit hard at times. Why shouldn't he? We are studying a martial art. Because he is the instructor, who is in a position of authority. If he's teaching, then why does he keep saying 'sorry'??? :rolleyes:
If brothers want to knock each other around that's just fine and dandy.


This isn't what people might normally call sparring (reverting back to my kenpo and Shaolin tiger Kungfu training days) where you strap on the "sparring gear" and have a couple rounds for a minute or two.Sorry, but it's not sparring by any definition.


I don't want the fight to last more than 5 to 10 seconds. What you want or don't want in a fight is immaterial. Your opponent will more than likely have other plans. Don't confuse Chi Sao with sparring, or sparring with fighting. ................Oh my goodness, I'm starting to sound like Terence. ;)


As far as the amount of power Carl hits with... Steve is no spring Chicken and has trained with Carl for quite a while now. Like B&B said, that in itself is dissappointing.

Just one person's opinion,

[Edmund]

Can't seem to see the clip Carl&Steve7.mpg

To be honest, the other clips don't seem like very hard shots so I'm not sure what the complaints are about. I thought they were going pretty light.

Carl&Steve7.mpg must be quite different.

[CarlD]

Hi Guys thanks for all of the interest. This is my first post ever and I really am not here to debate, just to clarify what I was doing, and address some points.

Ok that is not sparing, I agree, it was a drill and nothing more. We just stuck them in a general category. I will try to post my idea of chi sao, and then sparing off the box.

My training methodology is to develop certain key components before other skills are developed. Those components being, 1. Structure, 2.Sensitivity, 3.Reaction, 4. Rooting. There are others but these need to come first in the way that I teach.

The reason for the platform is to develop the root. It is one of my ways of doing it. It works for me so what the heck, you can train the way you do and I can train the way I do. The student might spend 5% of a class on the box. Idea being why be stepping if you can not root yet? ( Do you put the stepping first or the root first? From SLT I think the root first. If the opponent makes you move then he has the advantage, thats what we think. And it is ok to disagree or have different training ways and methods. I am not saying you guys are wrong in what you do.

As for Steve and video here is what was going on.

Steve and I were shooting that for some of his friends and a General that he was meeting with later that day, so it was very impromptu, his friends work for a company that does work in Iraq and he thought if I showed some things they might like me to train their guys. We were working for about 30-45 min. And those are the clips that I chose to show some close range power and a clean hit. Everyone talks about fighting, well what do you do when someone zings you? Steve was never hurt, he may have got zinged but he was ok. He was enjoying himself and so was I. I have been teaching for over 15 years and have never hurt any of my students. The way you guys reacted you would have thought I broke his nose, arm, leg, neck, something. We are doing martial arts and from some of my past training I was taught to go hard.

As for saying sorry , have any of you ever gone at a higher level and maybe landed a shot that your partner could not handle? I said I was sorry as Steve was not able to deal with the hit. I was turning it up with the goal of him being able to take it, a little bit too much leaked out. The one shot that lifted him off of his feet was just clean. I was not trying to do that, I had just spent the last 2 or 3 min, working with Steve on what to do when some ones hands are above yours. I just took a little too much of Steve’s energy and sent it back into him. In wing chun the opponents hands are either on top or underneath yours. So I want my students to know how to, or learn how to deal with it. Another basic concept nothing more.

Some of you also spoke of Steve’s skill. Well I think he is better than many and can deal with a lot. One time Steve was attacked by a fairly big guy and he was able to deal with it, much more to that story but I will not go into it. He told me that he was able to because I had worked hard with him. As for Steve not being any good I think he is, I just used my skill to go a little higher than him or my sensitivity to stay a head of him and it looks like he has nothing. My teacher can do the same thing to me, shut me down completely, and there is nothing I can do.

My Sifu as some of you know is Ken Chung. I am only a student of Ken’s nothing more. He has many good students. But either way Ken is a total gentleman and sets a great example for me.

As for Ken’s skill well if you have ever gone to a 5-star restaurant and had a great meal , the truck stop down the road definitely does not look too good any more. And if you do not have the experience of the 5-star then you will never know what you are missing.

My students know my philosophy and that is bleed in class a little so that you do not bleed in the street a lot. We try to keep it as real as possible, without hurting anyone. As for protection they can wear it but many choose to not wear head gear and it does not help when you get hit with a clean hit, either way the energy is going into you brain. When we do actually spar we try to go hard while trying to not hurt the other person. Some people do not spar in my class as some just do not want to fight which is fine. But for any young guys that come to me and want to learn how to fight, I want to make it as intense as possible.

As for my skill it really does not matter what some of you think as you have never met me, nor walked in my shoes. I am confident that only by hard work and a good teacher that I will continue to progress. It does not matter where I am at, I stay focused on hard work and having my teacher apply his 40 years of experience and precission to my 15 years of wing chun.

More clips to follow soon.

As for the May event I am excited about it. I have emailed Victor and told him that I am hoping that everyone has a great time and gets as much sparing time in as possible. The idea being that if 15 guys show up, then you have 15 new hands to touch and workout with. I am sure that it can be a good growth experience for all. I look forward to meeting and seeing some new martial artist.

The goal is that no one gets hurt and that everyone feels safe and has a good time. I am hoping to work hard and the have some good food with everyone.

Regards,

Carl

[Edmund]

Hi Carl,

Could you get clip Carl&Steve7.mpg back up?

Not trying to debate you or anything. Just want to see what was being discussed.



Edmund

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes...it's true that Carl and I have exchanged some emails after I posted on this thread that I should discuss things with him in order to clear the air about the nature of the vids that Marty posted...as I, and a number of other people, didn't like some of what we saw on the vids - not really so much in terms of sparring "definitions", 4' by 4' platforms, and the like - but in terms of the HEAVY hits and kicks being put on people who sometimes seemed quite helpless and disturbed by the amount of force being used on them...

And as Carl himself suggested that I feel free to forward the emails to whoever is interested in coming...I've decided to share our emails with everyone...as I want all of this to be out in the open, and in that manner everyone who's planning on coming...BECAUSE THEY ACCEPTED THE ORIGINAL 10 POINT PROPOSAL - and the 4 that were subsequently added...can see how this is all developing - and how the original intent of the get together is actually being followed - or not being followed.

............................................

Hi Victor,

Yes call me when you have a chance. I saw your post and agree with you I would never want to go to some bully place either. I think that the time we spend together will or should be constructive for all. My idea is to sit down and talk for the first 30 mins or so and discuss what we hope to accomplish. I think it will be great to touch 10-15 new guys hands and it would be great to meet some people that like to workout versus talk or play patty cake.

My main objective is to touch and workout as men, not as kids. What ever we agree on we stick to it, period. If people want to try anything at a higher level then great, but no one gets hurt by that force. No one tries to hurt anyone, period. I would hope that everyone is coming there to workout and see if we can find a way to do it fairly. To not go past the limits of what the other person can handle.

As far as those videos go there is much more than you realize. A few points to add to a better understanding.


Those were out takes of an hour of training. The clips are a total of what 30 - 40 seconds no more. Steve had asked me to turn it up.
First the clips were shot because Steve was showing some special forces guys and we were trying to recruit them.
I do not do that we any of my regular students.
The one hit that I hit him with, when he falls down, I let a little too much go, I was not trying to hit him hard. I am sure if you have worked out hard that you have landed some good hits, that were just plain clean and surprised you. Also if you look at the kick it may be too small to see I barely kicked him, it went in 2 inches and he collapsed, what do you say to your students when it is too much for them to handle, other than sorry.

I think most have never been hit so they will freak out when they see to much force. I do tend to train my students that say they want to fight, kind of hard. But those are the ones that get better and can handle it much more.

An interesting sorry about Steve is that he was falsely arrested and ended up in a holding tank at 1 am in the morning with a big guy asking Steve for his leather jacket. Steve was able to deal with the guy and not have his head bashed in nor lose his jacket. I would like to think that because of me working with him he was able to deal with it.

I do not do that with any of my regular students. Nor have any of my students ever been hurt for the past 14 years. Nor would I do that with anyone I just met.

Which is what our dilemma will be if you come to Cleveland, how we can turn it up and keep it cool.

Call me when you get this email and we can talk more. I am looking forward to working out and am sure it will be fine.

Regards,

Carl

................


Yes, Carl...I'll definitely give you a call before May 14th, and we can talk. In the meantime, let me just say a few things...boys will be boys...I know that very well. God knows how many times I've used too much force when working out with my students, or whoever. In fact, I've been arrested for assault here in NYC due to streetfights and such 3x in my life (as an adult - and after I began doing wing chun). So I've been around the block a few times...but I also know that some people who are planning to come to Cleveland are a bit concerned - and have contacted me...and after discussing the situation with them - and with my 2 students who are coming...and after discussing it with Phil Redmond and the 2 students that he's bringing - we all reached a consensus that REGARDLESS of who it is....the 14 points (including point #12)...will be enforced.

I'm sure you will agree...Furthermore, I also intend to say a few words at the start of the event to that effect as well.


Victor

................


Hi Victor ,

Call me when you have a chance , if I am busy leave a message and I will call you back. As for the video , chalk it up to a learning experience, enough said on that subject.

I was the one that had Marty put the point # 12 down, and feel that it is the most important really. Let me know what type of gear you are bringing, head and hand pads? I have some but not enough. I feel that we will need to sit down and have a certain agreed agenda, and have everyone give their input, as it need not be your thing or mine, but everyone that comes. My basic goal is that if 15 people are there we all get to spar with 14 different people. Now there will be different levels of skill, so no one is going to be beating anyone down. I really do not want to see anyone going at it from a full contact basis either, trying to knock some ones head off, or trying to hurt the other person. I liked the idea from the get go of a group meeting on a friendly basis. To tell you the truth I think I would enjoy letting you be the sheriff and keeping the peace when it come to sparring as long as you react fairly. You know that what we are trying to do can be complicated, but I am sure we can do it.

Feel free to forward my emails to whoever is coming, or they can email me also. My other goal is that everyone has a great time and we want to do it again.

Carl


...............


Carl:

Fairness is definitely the name of the game, and I will do my utmost in that regard. You can count on that. I will be bringing three sets of the following gear - for myself and my 2 students: head gear w/facecage...thin, semi-fingerless gloves...chest protectors...shin and knee pads...groin cup...very thin elbow pads. I like your idea of everyone getting a chance to spar with everyone else - but we should leave that up to each individual to fulfill. As to the rules of engagement while actually sparring - again I think that should also be left up to each individual PAIR of sparring participants to determine BEFORE they begin to spar. Some people might agree that they want light contact...some might want to go medium contact...some might want to go full contact (but without things like groin shots, of course...by way of example). Some might not want any takedowns to be in play - others might agree to use them, etc.

Sound like a plan?


Victor

................



Hi Victor,

I agree with you, we should be able to set it up so everyone feels safe and has a good experience.

Here is a good idea also, I think you mentioned it also. Whoever comes they spar with whoever the come with, and everyone can see how they spar and then we you spar with them it will be cool.

ANother is that you get to spar with everyone that comes, the more hands you touch the better. Even if they are short rounds.

Another idea is take all the names and put them in a hat, pull 2 out and they spar. ANd maybe try 2 people in a row.

Do you really have 10 guys that are coming ? That would be great. The potential of touch 10 people hands , well I think that it can only help everyone that comes.

Carl

................


That's the extent of the email exchanges so far - with the exception of another email that Carl sent wherein he gave me his cell phone# (which he had forgotten to do in his first email; and for obvious reasons I won't be posting that here).

A few more words from me before turning this over to public discussion - and hopefully some of the folks who have been planning to attend the event will comment...

I appreciate your sentiments about your sifu, Kenneth Chung, Carl...as I feel the same way about William Cheung being like a five star general (as does Phil Redmond)...and I'm sure Benny Meng feels that way about his sifu, Garrett Gee, etc. (Benny's coming also, I understand. Just using him and Phil as further examples.)

But putting names into a hat and drawing lots about who spars who...and then perhaps having to spar two people in a row, etc...

WHEN IT'S OBVIOUS THAT MANY OF US HAVE DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS OF WHAT SPARRING IS...and some people might want to use protective gear, and others might not, etc...

is not what was intended within the original 10 POINTS. I suggest you read them again, Carl...to get the gist of what I'm saying.

We don't want anyone to feel PEER PRESSURED into sparring...PEER PRESSURED about whom they shall spar...PEER PRESSURED about how many people they'll be expected to spar...PEER PRESSURED about how many times in a row they'll be expected to spar...PEER PRESSURED about what equipment will or will not be used...and PEER PRESSURED about the power and the intensity of the sparring they'll be expected to do. We're not running a boot camp.

ALL OF THAT GOES AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL...

Remember...we are simultaneously trying to build bridges between lineages and schools WHILE we engage in some friendly sparring. (...continued in the next post)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Carl:

THIS IS A DELICATE OPERATION TO PULL OFF...and therefore the more relaxed the atmosphere the better.

Now don't get me wrong - some of my students would be the first to tell you that sometimes my classes ARE like a bootcamp - and I'm like a tough drill sargeant with them at times.

But the nature of this event is much different than that.

We need to build bridges...and from there comes trust...and after trust...the competitive nature of "sparring" can be focused on more intensely.

Right now...the intensity of the competitiveness should not be the first priority.

Do you agree with this, or not?

[black and blue]

Were the special forces interested, Carl?

Regardless of Steve being able to beat a larger attacker on the street, I still think his skills looked shabby for someone experienced - but perhaps he was playing dumb as you were giving a demo.

Yes, you shouldn't care two hoots what I or anyone else thinks of your "skill". But I still say that for 15 years of practice I wasn't impressed. But that's by the by.

If anyone has footage of Ken Chung I would like to see it (if people are able to post it with his permission) - how "he" does his Wing Chun might be interesting.

Good luck to all of those attending the May event. Look forward to reading the reports (or seeing the footage if someone tapes it).

[CarlD]

Victor,

5) People can get to know each other, practice forms, do some chi sau...and some other drills...as a way to get a feel for someone without having to worry about sparring full out. No pressure.

6) And then the sparring can come later on amongst those who are comfortable with each other. (Video cameras are welcome - for some overall individual/group analysis later).

7) Sparring could include both light-contact and/or heavy contact (with protective equipment being present and recommended) for those who want to do a heavier contact sparring.

8) Some people will be present who are willing and capable of using fighting methods other than wing chun...so when sparring - wing chun can be used against more than just other wing chun.

9) A non-partisan Wing Chun Get Together learning process is instituted and new friendships are made - and after some trial and error...

10) We can always do it again. And again. With the ultimate goal being that Wing Chun SPARRING/FIGHTING SKILLS are further developed in a mutually-supportive atmosphere.


12.) No one is to come to prove anything. Mean people or people with bad attitudes are not welcome and will be asked by the group to leave.

13.) If you did not notify Carl Dechiara or Marty Yoder ahead of time, you might not be able to attend the event. If you are coming we ask that you register, with your goals and expectations. We will in turn send you a formal invitation to attend

We need to build bridges...and from there comes trust...and after trust...the competitive nature of "sparring" can be focused on more intensely.

Right now...the intensity of the competitiveness should not be the first priority.

Do you agree with this, or not?

YES of course I agree with this.

I understand and agree, as that is what we do everyday in our classes, how to build bridges, without trust the week end will be a waste of time.

So of course we need to approach it from the standpoint of hanging out together and having fun.

The bottom line is that the when you spar you get to set the level you go at. IF you want to spar at level one the whole week end then you can. No one will be expected or asked to do anything they are not comfortable with.

Regards,

Carl

[Nick Forrer]

If anyone has footage of Ken Chung I would like to see it (if people are able to post it with his permission) - how "he" does his Wing Chun might be interesting.



Me too............

[wingchunner]

If I may, please let me respond about putting clip of Ken on the internet. From my experience with Ken, he is a master of the subtle. Subtle meaning difficult to see. Thus, putting clips up on the internet of Ken might be fine, but I have a strong feeling that many won't be impressed.

Why? Kind of like with Carl's analogy to restaurants. If you're used to eating at fast food restaurants and "wolfing" the food down, you have the habit of "wolfing" the food down. Thus, when you go to the 5 star restaurant you "wolf" the food down and are not able to really appreciate the food. Kind of similar with Ken, most people are used to seeing big movements, tension, and ferocity. Ken is quite the opposite, very small movements, relaxed, and appears meek (but actually, like a tiger, he can appear docile,yet I am sure he can be quite ferocious).

Just my opinion.

Marty

[black and blue]

You may well be right... but it would be good to see a clip - to see, one way or the other. And class always shines through.

I train internal systems now... so am use to looking at people performing small, barely percepible movements. Besides, its more impressive to see someone deal with heavy attacks in a soft, relaxed and "small" way.

If clips are available it would be nice to see. But I fully understand some people being reluctant to post them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"We need to build bridges...and from there comes trust...and after trust...the competitive nature of "sparring" can be focused on more intensely.

Right now...the intensity of the competitiveness should not be the first priority.

Do you agree with this, or not?" (Victor)

.................


"YES of course I agree with this.

I understand and agree, as that is what we do everyday in our classes, how to build bridges, without trust the week end will be a waste of time.

So of course we need to approach it from the standpoint of hanging out together and having fun.

The bottom line is that the when you spar you get to set the level you go at. IF you want to spar at level one the whole week end then you can. No one will be expected or asked to do anything they are not comfortable with." (Carl)

................


JUST WHAT I WAS HOPING YOU'D SAY, Carl...because if we approach it like that - then we're being fair to everybody, and setting a tone of friendship. I have a suggestion, picking up on some things that were mentioned recently by you, and me, and some other folks.

After the initial meet and greet part of the day...various people who are there with some of their friends and students should spend some time sparring WITHIN THEIR SPECIFIC GROUP....just for a short while...so everyone one else in attendance can get to see what the other folks "DO"...in terms of sparring.

Some people are using no equipment, some use just a little, some use a lot...some spar lightly, some spar with more than light power and intensity...some use locks and takedowns, some don't use those techniques, etc.

In this manner we accomplish several things up front:

1) We start off sharing some of what we know and do by allowing others to see it - this demonstrates an openness and willingness to share and compare without judgments. That goes a way toward building some mutual trust.

2) People will have some understanding of the other guy's expectations...so later on we can talk with so-and-so about how the two of us might set some rules of engagement as to how we will spar with each other.

3) If there is a big discrepancy between how participant A wants to spar - and how participant B wants to do it...then at least A and B got a chance to identify the issues (and the people with whom he might have sparring issues with)...in advance - rather than being peer pressured into jumping into a swimming pool the waters of which he later finds uncomfortable or threatening.

[Nick Forrer]

I train internal systems now... so am use to looking at people performing small, barely percepible movements. Besides, its more impressive to see someone deal with heavy attacks in a soft, relaxed and "small" way.



Its a shame you never saw that when you were doing wing chun.

[Taff]

I don't understand why Carl "poses" the last movement in CarlDan5.mpg
Also, in Marty&Chuck1.mpg, the student who "loses" turns away from the "attacker" as he goes off the platform, exposing his side. I just think that's a bad reflex to have in you.

I do see the worth early on in the platforms, it's most important to create a stable base, but I think if that is the case, the attacks should not be so hard that the student falls off the platform. You surely want the reflex to be stepping properly when your stance can't take anymore pressure. Instead their reaction is just stumbling backwards or turning around and walking off.

I think that if the pressure is so great that they feel they need to move off the platform something should be done. Either reduce the pressure of the attacks, or start teaching proper stepping. That way you either teach the correct reflex, or you eliminate the need for it (assuming the students are not advanced enough to start on it).

[Matrix]

Hi Guys thanks for all of the interest. This is my first post ever and I really am not here to debate, just to clarify what I was doing, and address some points.
Carl,
Thanks for responding in person. I suspect that it may be a difficult thing to do since the comments to date have been less then flattering. ;)


Everyone talks about fighting, well what do you do when someone zings you? ....<snip> ... The way you guys reacted you would have thought I broke his nose, arm, leg, neck, something. We are doing martial arts and from some of my past training I was taught to go hard. Because you weren't sparring or fighting. If you were sparring freely, I might not object as strongly. There is supposed to be some 'art' in the martial art, not hitting for the sake of hitting. At least not in training, and certainly not with players who are so much less skilled. Since you're the sifu, your skill level is clearly head-and-shoulders above Steve's. Your superiorty was obvious before the hit. And Steve obviously (or so it seemed from here) had no ability to defend that strike. You could have made your point without the extra energy, IMO. At that's all it is, an opinion. When clips are posted on the internet, it's easy to be critical. I think it's to be expected.

In any case, it's easy to condemn someone based on a few clips, and it's probably not fair. Life's like that sometimes. I appreciate the fact that you're stepping up to field the questions.

[black and blue]

Nick says: "Its a shame you never saw that when you were doing wing chun."


What makes you think I didn't? I said it's more impressive to see it... not that I hadn't seen it.

Admittedly, in WCK I've seen more soft/small/subtle etc in lines outside of YM than in, but have seen some good YM WCK too. The small/soft/subtle wasn't the reason for my switching to internal systems (Bagua and Xingyi).

One of my WC instructors was Kevin Chan at Kamon. His WC is not just about blinding speed :) And also, without doubt, one of the best WC men I've seen when it comes to knowing how to use the art against all comers. Makes Carl D looks sloppy... which, judging by those clips....

You train WSL WC in the UK right? Have met some WSL people here in Budapest and worked out/sparred with them... good times ;)

[jonp]

"Makes Carl D looks sloppy."

its not a bout look its about feel

ive seen people who are very good, powerful, precise, relaxed - utterly controlled by somebody who doesnt even look like he does wck.

-peace

[black and blue]

Agreed... feel is possibly more important. But if someone's steps look dead, their movement looks large and protracted and their control looks sloppy against someone without much skill....

Well, I don't think it's a good foundation. The sloppy guy who is big, strong, using great muscular strength can, of course, win. But we wouldn't advocate people to try and attain this. I guess I'm saying "skill rather than sloppy but aggressive technique".

I can't feel his technique from watching on video, but from watching he looked crap for someone with 15 years training. And the Ken Chung way is supposed to be about small, soft, subtle movements no?

Am just interested that none of that seems apparent from one of his 15-year students who is now an instructor himself.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But if someone's steps look dead, their movement looks large and protracted and their control looks sloppy against someone without much skill....Well, I don't think it's a good foundation...I'm saying 'skill rather than sloppy but aggressive technique'...he looked crap for someone with 15 years training. And the Ken Chung way is supposed to be about small, soft, subtle movements no?... Am just interested that none of that seems apparent from one of his 15-year students who is now an instructor himself." (black and blue)


WHILE I'VE ALREADY EXPRESSED my criticisms of the way Carl was hitting and kicking his students with too much force; nonetheless, I find the above comments by black and blue to be OFF THE MARK.

Wing Chun is about a lot more than "small, soft, subtle movements"...that is, if you want to be able to actually fight a skilled opponent with it.

If you want to do drills and chi sao all day - that's a different story. Then we can discuss ad infinitum (and ad nauseum) how subtle, soft, and sweet it all can be.

And that - along with a subway token - will get you on the train.

I wouldn't judge anybody's ability to fight with wing chun just from watching those vids, black and blue.

[Liddel]

Its a bit late in the game but i just looked at the vids...
Good for you opening yourself up to scrutiny, even though people here have been a little .....
Ive seen many vids similar to this and been to schools that make use of the small "stage" [if you will] you use.

One thing that always stands out to me is the lack of turning to minimise comming force, its either not used or used on the wrong side or less than 45 degrees which means it has little to no effect on redirecting the force. What do you feel in regards to this ?
the other point i notice is some people have incomplete stepping...failing to take peoples space and giving up thier own???, front foot is always used but not the supporting leg, it seems to not follow up.

My opinion on these vids is if you improve your footwork and chum Kui combining arms and legs together you will feel a great improvement for this type of practise and in general..

Its always interesting to see other VT schools and how they train, thanks for sharing, good luck with the training.

Liddel, Lok Yiu Lineage.

[black and blue]

Victor,

I agree with you - WCK when used to fight is more than the things I mentioned... but the videos put online were not videos of fighting. They were also not videos of sparring.

Each to his own. I just didn't see anything there that impressed me - I was expecting more.

And yes - videos are a limited medium. All I'm saying is that having watched them there was nothing in them that would make me want to visit the man (though I'm sure Carl D couldn't care less about this).

Will be interesting to read your impressions after you've touched hands with him at the May event.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fair enough, black and blue.

[Nick Forrer]

What makes you think I didn't? I said it's more impressive to see it... not that I hadn't seen it.


Its just the way you phrased your original statement as in now that you are doing IMA you see something that wasnt around before.

If you're back in England sometime come and meet Clive. He uses very small movements/adjustments.

[wingchunner]

More video clips to see (and comment on) in the next day or two.

BTW-

Someone in Carl's class said the following:

"I just looked and read the whole thing in kungfumagazine.com. Wow,
it's amazing what people said .
I don't know much about martial art yet but the past 6 months I never
thought things like what they think... they don't want to be hit, they
don't want pain, wonder what they do in their martial art class....?"



This was said by a 100 lbs. little Japanese girl that studies with Carl. :)

Marty

[black and blue]

Hi Nick,

Well, of course I see things in the internal arts I study that I don't see in WCK... but perhaps I phrased it badly... I certainly wasn't claiming WCK is all muscle and big movements ;)

Yes - when back I'd like to meet Clive (have heard good things about him and one of the guys I know at Kamon met and worked out with one of Clive's students and said it was a good experience).

I don't practise WCK at all now, but do work out (spar etc) with some Wing Chunners over here - so would like to meet Clive and maybe do some light sparring if that's something he's open to. (I say 'light' because heavy sparring with people I don't know well has caused.. umm... problems).

Have been working out with some Kempo guys too... that was an eye-opener!

[t_niehoff]

"I just looked and read the whole thing in kungfumagazine.com. Wow,
it's amazing what people said .
I don't know much about martial art yet but the past 6 months I never
thought things like what they think... they don't want to be hit, they
don't want pain, wonder what they do in their martial art class....?"

My sentiments, exactly. Only the fellows in the clip weren't *really* hitting or trying to hit one another -- it was a cooperative (artificial) demo. What I always find so funny about WCK is that it's almost universal to have the pot calling the kettle black.

[Nick Forrer]

Yes - when back I'd like to meet Clive (have heard good things about him and one of the guys I know at Kamon met and worked out with one of Clive's students and said it was a good experience).

I don't practise WCK at all now, but do work out (spar etc) with some Wing Chunners over here - so would like to meet Clive and maybe do some light sparring if that's something he's open to. (I say 'light' because heavy sparring with people I don't know well has caused.. umm... problems).


Yeah sparring with people you dont know often leads to problems. Ive had the same experience a few times. If you come Clive will probably roll with you and show you a few things but i warn you against asking him to 'spar'. Not trying to sound like 'my sifu is such a tough guy' but he will hit you very hard until youve had enough (usually takes 1 or 2 hits to reach this point - ive been there done that got the t shirt (with my blood on it)). He doesnt look like much but his hands are like hammers.

[CarlD]

My sentiments, exactly. Only the fellows in the clip weren't *really* hitting or trying to hit one another -- it was a cooperative (artificial) demo. What I always find so funny about WCK is that it's almost universal to have the pot calling the kettle black.


Just to clarify, one of the things that I do to train my students is turn it up, with the idea that they just need to NEUTRALIZE me. Either by having the right pressure, by turning, by redirecting or by attacking. They also get use to having someone attack them with out the worry of getting hurt. They are not letting me hit them, I would never ask anyone to do that.

IF they do not push, pull, collapse, but can meet my energy with the right energy then I am forced to change and we try again. BUT if they make a mistake then they get hit, but with only 20-30% of my force. In those videos they are also free to hit me.

One of the ways I keep them honest and motivated is that I use some energy in the process, no one wants to get hit, but they know when we are doing certain things it is going to be kind of real. Makes them try harder to not get hit or make mistakes, and also trains them to be able to take a hit and not shut down or freak out. In a real fight you are going to get hit! I only hit them when they make mistakes when we are turning it up. I also show them what will work and what will happen if they do it right, where to hit and what it feels like.

I do not do this with all of my students only the ones that I know can handle it physically and psychologically.

I have one student that can take anyones punch in the belly. For those of you that come in May, you will be free to try it. He has the ability to meet your energy as you punch him in the stomach. It just happened, from all of his training next thing he knew was able to take it from anyone. He obviously can still be surprised and not be ready, but it happens less and less to him, when I am working with him. (I think he has done this with around 200 people now) Nice thing to have because he now has 1 less target to guard.

I try to train people the way I would want to be trained when I was 25 years old.

Keep it real, build skill, and learn how to fight. I train with my sifu because he can kick my ass.

Regards,

Carl

[YungChun]

they don't want to be hit, they don't want pain, wonder what they do in their martial art class....?"



Being hit (hard) in mock combat when both people are going "at it" is one thing.

Being hit gratuitously by a giggling teacher is quite another. :rolleyes:

I can tell when someone hits hard in chi sao for fun and THAT is what I got from some of the clips as apparently many other long time combat oriented WCK people. If this is not representative of Carl then I wonder why those clips were posted... and then removed.

If this is just normal 'getting hit' then why do we hear Carl saying:

Oh sorry. :eek:

Oh sorry. :eek:

Oh sorry... :eek:


What I saw would be like me doing chi sao with a young student and after getting control of him firing a couple of hits, finishing off with an intentional whiplash under the chin wong jung while laughing. That's cool right? Making the non resisting partner who has stopped issuing energy drop to his knees. This is normal right?

So then I would assume all students get a brain zinger with Carl everytime they roll while he laughs - and then stops to say - 'oh sorry.'

If it's all good then why is this clip still missing???

http://www.workav.net/cwc_video/Carl&Steve7.mpg

[Mr Punch]

They are not letting me hit them, I would never ask anyone to do that...In those videos they are also free to hit me.So why weren't they?

Plus, isn't it a bit daft to teach them to take hits using the board as a format? (Please note, this IS a question, not a criticism; I know everyone has different ways...) They can't move other than turning (which none of them were doing). This is teaching them that taking hits in a static manner is a useful 'reflex'. What happened to "greet what comes, see off what goes"? When you get punched shouldn't you be absorbing it in your goat stance, or using the energy like a revolving door by screwing down into your stance and hitting back? Failing a simple turn or half-step to slough it off...?

FWIW, I don't really like the board anyway. If somebody is shifting back and forth, or turning or generally moving around too much, and you are practising on the board, they stop as soon as they go off the board. If you don't use a board, there's no disengagement, so if they are moving around in a wasteful unnecessary way, you just keep nailing them (er, sorry, I mean, "showing them the openings"! :D ) until they stand the **** still, hit the back wall, get taken down or something... assuming they have some degree of skill (which you said these people have). In that way, if they get to a street fight, they're not used to stopping and analyzing their failure to keep their stance rooted, while they're still getting beaten.

And BTW wingchunner, and this is a criticism, but made strictly in the knowledge that I always look crap on film... your goat stance is well stiff and you lean forwards. If any of your partners could do a decent lap sao, you'd be on your face!

Plus, in no way is this sparring, by any definition.

[wingchunner]

And BTW wingchunner, and this is a criticism, but made strictly in the knowledge that I always look crap on film... your goat stance is well stiff and you lean forwards. If any of your partners could do a decent lap sao, you'd be on your face!

I know. I see a lot of mistakes as well. What can I say. I've got a long way to go.

Here are some things I can tell you that I saw that were somewhat good in my videos:
Chuck and Tommy got to a point where they were pushing on me pretty forcefully. Even though I didn't neutralize and change as cleanly as I would like, I was able to "swollow" a large part of the force they were sending into me and keep my techniques under control.

But, you're right. I could have turned more, used less force, and been much, much cleaner.

Marty

[Matrix]

Being hit (hard) in mock combat when both people are going "at it" is one thing.

Being hit gratuitously by a giggling teacher is quite another. :rolleyes:
Well that's the point, isn't it. If we have two training partners going at, that's just fine. No offence to Steve, but he looks like he can barely defend himself.


If it's all good then why is this clip still missing???
The clip isn't that bad really. I think things are getting blown out of proportion. The optics just say 'bad form' from a teaching perspective, IMO.

If you haven't seen the clip then.......
Right-Click here and SAVE TARGET AS (http://ca.geocities.com/wingchun@rogers.com/index.htm/carl_and_steve7.mpg)

Oh sorry... :eek: :D

[Mr Punch]

Bill, your link's not working for me.

[t_niehoff]

CarlD wrote:

Just to clarify, one of the things that I do to train my students is turn it up, with the idea that they just need to NEUTRALIZE me. Either by having the right pressure, by turning, by redirecting or by attacking. They also get use to having someone attack them with out the worry of getting hurt. They are not letting me hit them, I would never ask anyone to do that.

**But your "sparring" is artificial, that's not how anyone will really fight: you guys are "play fighting". The best way to "neutralize" someone is to knock them on their @ss, and no one in these clips are trying to do that.

IF they do not push, pull, collapse, but can meet my energy with the right energy then I am forced to change and we try again. BUT if they make a mistake then they get hit, but with only 20-30% of my force. In those videos they are also free to hit me.

**You are playing a game. Go mix it up with a MMAist and you'll see. The other thing is that going 20-30% permits folks to get away with all kinds of nonsense (that won't work). Going 80-90% will show you that.

One of the ways I keep them honest and motivated is that I use some energy in the process, no one wants to get hit, but they know when we are doing certain things it is going to be kind of real. Makes them try harder to not get hit or make mistakes, and also trains them to be able to take a hit and not shut down or freak out. In a real fight you are going to get hit! I only hit them when they make mistakes when we are turning it up. I also show them what will work and what will happen if they do it right, where to hit and what it feels like.

**The only way to find this out is by fighting, and not at 20-30%.

I do not do this with all of my students only the ones that I know can handle it physically and psychologically.

**If they can't handle it from day one, they shouldn't be practicing a fighting method.

I have one student that can take anyones punch in the belly. For those of you that come in May, you will be free to try it. He has the ability to meet your energy as you punch him in the stomach. It just happened, from all of his training next thing he knew was able to take it from anyone. He obviously can still be surprised and not be ready, but it happens less and less to him, when I am working with him. (I think he has done this with around 200 people now) Nice thing to have because he now has 1 less target to guard.

**Most boxer's can take quite a shot to the gut too. BFD.

I try to train people the way I would want to be trained when I was 25 years old.

Keep it real, build skill, and learn how to fight. I train with my sifu because he can kick my ass.

**Really? Have you fought -- really fought -- with him? Has your sifu ever fought anyone skilled in his entire life? If he's never fought anyone skilled, how can you say what he could do? Oh, that's your theory.

[hungchun]

From what I experienced and know of, these vids did not show any LS and/or Ken Chung WC. It mainly showed a bigger person bullying a smaller and weaker person. Not to mention that the bigger person is the "sifu". In CMA, a "sifu"(at least the good one) don't use your own and/or anyone else student as punching bag.

If just to show/demo a point, LS and Ken Chung would hit the student BUT stop right before the contact with amazing accuracy once the student is under control.

If I recall correctly, LS and/or Ken Chung WC focus on position, sensitivity, structure, and timing. These vids showed none of these. These vids showed something both LS and Ken Chung would call it "tarm dai" (greedy to hit).

Is there anyone else on this forum does LS and/or Ken Chung WC? If so, any comment on these clips?

[CarlD]

Terrance,

I can agree with you, those videos are just play. We do try to make it real to a certain extent but you are right not at the level you are talking about. At at certain levels people get hurt and their training is limited.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to find people that are willing to train at the level you are talking about?

I have a hard enough time getting people to train fairly hard in class. The level you are talking about I might have 5 students and then 3 of them would be hurt and I guess I might be left with 2 students.

Do you do wing chun? or MMA?

I will enjoy seeing and feeling your perspective in May.

ALso wondering do you have different levels that you can work at or is all or nothing at all?

Carl

[CarlD]

If I recall correctly, LS and/or Ken Chung WC focus on position, sensitivity, structure, and timing. These vids showed none of these. These vids showed something both LS and Ken Chung would call it "tarm dai" (greedy to hit).

Is there anyone else on this forum does LS and/or Ken Chung WC? If so, any comment on these clips?

Well I can agree with you, as will everyone else that trains with Ken. I will try to put out something more closely to what you are saying. As Ken says "if LS was here he would correct me", Ken say this to me all the time; and if Ken was to look at those he would say way to much power, and you should be much cleaner. I put those out as a first try to just put some thing out. Have at it. Please post your videos so that I can look at them.

Also I am doing some other things in the videos, that I would have to say is not wing chun in the first place.

Thanks,

Carl

[t_niehoff]

CarlD wrote:

I can agree with you, those videos are just play. We do try to make it real to a certain extent but you are right not at the level you are talking about. At at certain levels people get hurt and their training is limited.

**If folks are trained properly, the risks of injury is minimized. Boxers, MT practitioners, etc. all "spar" realisitically. All fighters do. But yes, injuries can happe -- that's the nature of the activity.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to find people that are willing to train at the level you are talking about?

**Yes, I do! But the point is unless you do train at that level (fighting as a part of your training), you'll never develop any significant fighting skill.

I have a hard enough time getting people to train fairly hard in class. The level you are talking about I might have 5 students and then 3 of them would be hurt and I guess I might be left with 2 students.

**It depends on what you want. If you want to train folks that have skills (fighting skills), then they need to do certain things. If they don't want to do them, they are wasting their time. If they went to a boxing gym but didn't want to put in the work (including sparring) what would be the point?

Do you do wing chun? or MMA?

**Both. I use WCK where it is appropriate, just like I use BJJ where it is appropriate.

I will enjoy seeing and feeling your perspective in May.

**Same here.

ALso wondering do you have different levels that you can work at or is all or nothing at all?

**Sure. I don't always go "full-out" (you can't train effectively doing that) -- maybe 10 to 20% of my training. But it is only by having gone "full-out" that you can effectively drop down and train at lower levels of intensity.

[Ernie]

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/kunfuteach.html

Peep this out , this is a school they should toss raw meat on the floor and have them fight each other for a bit , the coach would get off on that .

ps. carl , props for having the balls to drop clips , personally the whole style is to sloth like tai chi ish for me but we all have different takes on stuff , ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I can agree with you, those videos are just play. We do try to make it real to a certain extent but you are right not at the level you are talking about. At at certain levels people get hurt and their training is limited.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to find people that are willing to train at the level you are talking about?

I have a hard enough time getting people to train fairly hard in class. The level you are talking about I might have 5 students and then 3 of them would be hurt and I guess I might be left with 2 students." (Carl)


PRECISELY THE REASON, Carl...why I advocate using lots of protective gear and then working the sparring up...GRADUALLY...to 70-80-90-100% contact.

I takes time - but most students...if they're serious - can get there.

Within 6 months or so (sometimes even sooner), I have new students geared up for some light contact sparring drills - wherein punches and kicks ARE going to hit them if they miss their block, or positioning, or whatever...but starting out with just a LIMITED amount of techniques/scenarios being used (ie.- could just be one or two) on any given day...

and then three or four...and with a bit more intensity...and then five or six, and so on.

And with each passing class, week, month - it becomes more and more spontaneous - and with harder contact.

Of course there'll be bumps and bruises, sprained ankles, backs, joints, perhaps a headache or two, a kick here and there that got too close to the groin, etc...

but serious injuries are avoided.

And all of this being done, not INSTEAD OF things like chi sao, forms, wooden dummy, and other chi sao related drills, etc...BUT IN ADDITION to those things - at least one class per week (and sometimes more).

(And crosstraining in grappling arts, defending takedowns, use and defense of submissions, etc. is also something I do and advocate.)

[Matrix]

Bill, your link's not working for me.
Mat,
Can you try it again?

Right-Click here and SAVE TARGET AS (http://ca.geocities.com/wingchun@rogers.com/index.htm/carl_and_steve7.mpg)

Oh sorry... ;)

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Bill. It worked. Gotta dash but I'll check it out later.

[Edmund]

Mat,
Can you try it again?

Right-Click here and SAVE TARGET AS (http://ca.geocities.com/wingchun@rogers.com/index.htm/carl_and_steve7.mpg)

Oh sorry... ;)

Still nothing for me! What's the deal with this clip?
The internet gods are against me.

The other clips don't seem hard enough to warrent a lot of protective equipment.

But someone has got to define "bullying" because to me it seemed like Carl was going pretty light and easy. Bullying would be beating the hell out of someone. I don't think he threw a real punch.

From light playing like this you would progress to light sparring. Then go more full contact. It's the full contact level where most WC people are weak.

I don't see a problem with going light though. Whether it's doing drills or sparring, it helps to keep it light to learn techniques and timing.