Attention: 5 Venoms

[fa_jing]

I posted the clip of the Wing Chun vs. Mantis friendly sparring clip from my personal video. I have met both instructors. Both are formidable fighters. You said "I hope neither of these is representative of their style" What criticism are you levelling, exactly? How would you advise them to spar in a safe manner that's different from what you saw? Would you offer a sparring clip to demonstrate what you mean?

I ask because the level of criticism I have heard regarding this clip is bullsh!t, so far it's been entirely from people who would get their asses whipped by either practicioner.

People think that fighting is all perfect like you see in the movies, or that you can spar all out no gear without getting hurt. Let me ask you, did you see Frank Shamrock fall over executing a kick and getting his ass whupped on SpikeTV? Would you then say FS is a laughable representation of the MMA style? The man has won the UFC title many times as you should know. When people are of similar skills the fighting is not pretty and anything can happen.

[PangQuan]

I noticed (i believe the first time) that they went to the ground, the praying mantis man ended that with a claw to the throat. He did that without hurting the other man. This also endicated that the other man would have been dead at that point were this actual combat.

thats what we call skill in martial arts

[red5angel]

I've seen that video before, it's not bad, here's my observation on what 5 Venoms may be trying to get at, if he's not a troll.


These guys are doing some light sparring. They're not trying to knock each other concious, it's somewhere close to point sparring, but more then that. So the problem you're going to run into is that people are going to offer criticism on a short video fo some guys sparring lightly, and trying not to hurt each other, while trying to show that they can, and how they can hurt each other. I'm sure all the grapplers on this board could pipe in at any moment and shoot all sorts of holes for where they would throw takedowns and those sorts of things. I'm sure NHB guys could look at it and scoff because they aren't throwing good solid shots to the head or face where it counts.

In my opinion, this is probably pretty close to representative of how these guys would perform during your averae street fight - although they may have a hand up on their opponents. If you watch this fight and you watch the videos of street fights, you'll probably notice some similarities.

[fa_jing]

why speculate on what he's getting at? Why not state the opinion as your own?

I think a MMA-oriented criticism would be valid, actually, if a bit apples and oranges. What I've heard so far is "looks like kickboxing", "real Wing Chun would have defeated Mantis Guy easily", "Real Praying Mantis would have defeated Wing Chun guy easily" which is all a bunch of B.S.

"In my opinion, this is probably pretty close to representative of how these guys would perform during your average street fight "

If you mean would they use the same favorite moves, yes. If you mean the intensity and willingness to engage would be the same -- I certainly hope not.

[fa_jing]

You might as well call it "continous point sparring with no points and no judges" in terms of the intensity. It was a friendly testing of hands and not a demonstration. Shadow Boxer in Texas was making me clips out of some video I had, he put it together with the caption in the beginning. Personally I think they demonstrated their skills well, but I wouldn't sell the tape or put it up on the web without background info.

[red5angel]

f you watch street fights, most not all, I'd say you'll see a similar sort of behaviour, cautious probing attackes then an all out committal. I'm not making a statement on these guys in particular, what I'm saying is that if you pictured each one as fighting an oppnent at a bar or whatever, you'd probably see very similar performance except more committed.
As for who would win and what not, anyone who makes statements about this or that would win, is either too immature in their martial arts training to understand, mislead, or an idiot.

[PangQuan]

or all three

[fa_jing]

or all 4!! I mean um, ok. :p

[Samurai Jack]

So where's this video?

[PangQuan]

first post is in the wing chun section, dude double posted here as wing chun vs. praying mantis. it was closed due to double posting.

[5 Venoms]

I posted the clip of the Wing Chun vs. Mantis friendly sparring clip from my personal video. I have met both instructors. Both are formidable fighters. You said "I hope neither of these is representative of their style" What criticism are you levelling, exactly? How would you advise them to spar in a safe manner that's different from what you saw? Would you offer a sparring clip to demonstrate what you mean?

I ask because the level of criticism I have heard regarding this clip is bullsh!t, so far it's been entirely from people who would get their asses whipped by either practicioner.

People think that fighting is all perfect like you see in the movies, or that you can spar all out no gear without getting hurt. Let me ask you, did you see Frank Shamrock fall over executing a kick and getting his ass whupped on SpikeTV? Would you then say FS is a laughable representation of the MMA style? The man has won the UFC title many times as you should know. When people are of similar skills the fighting is not pretty and anything can happen.


Fa Jing,

First of all, can you clear something up for me...when you say that you've met "both instructors and they're formidable fighters", are you telling me that the 2 guys in the video are INSTRUCTORS??? Please tell me that's not right. Because if that's the case, they really have no right to be teaching at all! If you were trying to say that the 2 guys in the clip are students of the "formidable" instructors you know, then ok I can understand that. Maybe you were one of the guys in the video? If so it's ok don't be embarrassed to admit it.

I would have to say that both of those guys were beginners. Maybe neither of them had ever sparred someone from a style other than their own. They sure didnt show it if they had. Was the footage recorded as a training aid to be used in class?

I've trained in Wing Chun for 10 years, so I'm mainly looking at the WC opponent. I don't know a lot about Praying Mantis so I won't comment on that guy's technique. To be honest thought, the Praying Mantis guy was the only one who appeared to be using his training, although as I said it's obvious that they're both beginners.

So let me point out things about the Wing Chun opponent. What I could see were the WC principles: closing the distance, forward pressure, naturally adapting to the opponent's moves. However, he didn't have the technical skill to put the principles into motion. There were so many openings that were not taken into account (for both opponents not just the WC guy). No strong hand or foot technique. Little distance awareness. When they closed the gap, the WC guy allowed himself to get tangled up! And the most shocking thing to me, when they had actually CROSSED ARMS!! :eek: If he had any skill at all, he could have easily blown the other guy away! Come on you've got to admit it yourself unless you simply have no idea of what Wing Chun looks like in motion. And why on earth would a Wing Chun practicioner try to kick to the head, especially against a Northern stylist?? Do you not understand the nature of your art?

Overall, I would say that video is the perfect example of the importance of pressure testing techniques while learning them. I'm not putting either style down, I'm putting down the BS instructors who pass on garbage to students, don't teach them how to use what they've learned in a real situation, give them a false sense of what they can or cannot do and then hear about them getting their ass kicked! This has gone on for too long in martial art schools especially here in the US.

And as for what you said about Frank Shamrock, I didn't see the match in question but if he fell on his ass while trying to execute a kick to the head, then he shouldn't have even attempted the kick. Simple as that. :rolleyes:

And for the comment about watching a kung fu movie and thinking that's how a real fight looks, I can't help but laugh. Believe me when I say that I've had to literally fight for my life, not in some lame sparring match or a cage with rules, but on the street with a gun pulled on me and my wife. And jumped by surprise when I was in the military overseas. So I'm the last person you need to try and tell what looks like a real fight and what doesn't. I'm not one of the other keyboard warriors here who talk a big game but have never left my parent's home, or had to live in the real world. And anyone who has seriously trained in Gung Fu, MMA, or any other type of fighting, and has attained any level of real skill, will look at that video and tell you the exact same things that I pointed out about the opponents.

[SevenStar]

please show us real skill - post clips of yourself...

[MoiFah]

Unfortunately, this is the bottom line in any traditional martial art, that's why when they go into a no holds barred fight they suck. TMA will work when the other person is unaware that you are about to employ your system of choice. When two martial artist of different styles square off there is little resemblence to what they learned in their respective schools.

[PangQuan]

May I ask what the agreed upon stipulations for this friendly little sparring session were? If we dont know that then we cant make too many asumptions.

I see your points venom. But I know personally I have had serious sparring sessions and then sessions that were pretty much just goofing around. In those ones that I goof off in with my kf friends, i dont always take every opening, nor do I try to blow them away. this may be a goofy one that just happend to be on film and then on the net.

You could argue, why do it if its not going to be full blast. A rebuttle could be. I could be sitting down at home, or practicing something else. If your a good practitioner, you will be able to draw experience from any type of training, no matter how large or small, serious or silly. so something is better than nothing.

They may simply have been tasting each others style. They may have said, "hey lets both go 20% and have some fun, ive never seen your style against mine, so lets take it with some salt."

but who knows. I dont. So im not going to try and see what may not be there.

just sayin, :)

[5 Venoms]

please show us real skill - post clips of yourself...

Don't have any video of myself but I'd be glad to show you in person if you're in my area?

[PangQuan]

now now....

[5 Venoms]

PangQuan,


Yes I agree with you 100%, if it was just two students goofing around or intended as a training tape then that's cool. But when I originally saw that clip posted (I don't remember exactly where but it was a while ago) it was labeled as being a "Wing Chun vs. Praying Mantis" sparring clip, and all I was saying in my first post was that neither style was represented fairly. Again nothing against the 2 guys in the video because they look like beginning students, and good for them for at least stepping up to the plate so to speak. That's more than a lot of people on here have done.

[red5angel]

ok, let's start a pool, who do yout hink 5 Venoms really is?


Xebs -

Fu Pow -

Rilek -

Me -

[red5angel]

PangQuan,


Yes I agree with you 100%, if it was just two students goofing around or intended as a training tape then that's cool. But when I originally saw that clip posted (I don't remember exactly where but it was a while ago) it was labeled as being a "Wing Chun vs. Praying Mantis" sparring clip, and all I was saying in my first post was that neither style was represented fairly. Again nothing against the 2 guys in the video because they look like beginning students, and good for them for at least stepping up to the plate so to speak. That's more than a lot of people on here have done.


and as 7* said, what are your credentials again?

[PangQuan]

ok, let's start a pool, who do yout hink 5 Venoms really is?


Xebs -

Fu Pow -

Rilek -

Me -

you.......

[fa_jing]

5 venoms - ok, please post any clip of any wing chun fighter engaged in continuous friendly sparring with an opponent of another style that illustrates your points.

You have been extremely insulting and disrespectful to two very competant instructors and have no basis for the claims you state, other than the fact that apparently you don't know what sparring is.

I will illustrate my point: you said
" And why on earth would a Wing Chun practicioner try to kick to the head, especially against a Northern stylist??"

Say it with me, slowly. S-P-A-R-R-I-N-G. Nice kicks, right?

"If he had any skill at all, he could have easily blown the other guy away!"

Exactly the attitude I got from other non-sparring warriors. You don't just "easily blow away" someone with a 20 year background in Praying Mantis, TKD and other arts.

Sifu Milan, the WC instructor is William Chueng's top man in Brazil. At the time, he was here in Chicago setting up classes. Don't know if he's still here.

The only rules were, to not really try to hurt the other guy. A good example is when the PM guy turned his back -- he had just pulled a side kick to prevent hurting the other guy.

[red5angel]

"If he had any skill at all, he could have easily blown the other guy away!"


5 Venoms actually said this? He has to be a troll, or about 13. If ANYONE has more skill then their opponent they could blow away their opponent. It gets tougher when suddenly your facing someone who is a match for you.
The thing that I think is really funny about that comment is that Southern Preying Mantis - which it looks like this guy is using - is a hell of a lot like wingchun in several of its principles.

[fa_jing]

The only 2 criticisms that could reasonably be levelled against these two practicioners, is
1. Not the best groundfighting skills, compared to ground specialists

2. Not, as of the taping, in fighting shape to last many rounds in a professional prizefight. You wouldn't have seen that in this video, but my sifu was ragging on them for gassing relatively quickly.


attached is a picture of Sifu Lera in the 80's

[fa_jing]

Actually Red it was Northern Mantis. They are pretty busy with the hands if that's what you mean, and as you know there are alot of similarities between different fighting styles.

I was just about to bring that point you made back up. Two fighters who are similarly matched will not "blow each other away" unless they go all out AND get lucky. Given that this was friendly sparring, that possibility is zero.

[red5angel]

Actually Red it was Northern Mantis. They are pretty busy with the hands if that's what you mean, and as you know there are alot of similarities between different fighting styles.

I was just about to bring that point you made back up. Two fighters who are similarly matched will not "blow each other away" unless they go all out AND get lucky. Given that this was friendly sparring, that possibility is zero.


funny you should say Northern Mantis. I had an argument with someone on this forum a while back about if they looked at all alike. That looks a hell of a lot like southern mantis to me. not saying he has crappy northern, just saying I may be right after all ;)

right, personally this 5 Venoms guy seems like a d!ckweed. I have to believe he's a troll.

[fa_jing]

Actually I don't believe he is a troll. If he is a troll then he is repeating the same invectives I heard from non-troll TCMA people. If this video can clear the air a bit about what happens in a non-rehearsed situation then it is worth it. Remember that most TMA instructors spend half the class time talking about how their style is unbeatable and fights can be won in 6 seconds or less. 5 Venom's attitude is exactly what is wrong with most TMA and I blame his instructor.

BTW, 5 Venoms: I believe you that you used your art successfully in the street. I don't believe you that you know much about sparring and friendly testing between styles.

[red5angel]

BTW, 5 Venoms: I believe you that you used your art successfully in the street. I don't believe you that you know much about sparring and friendly testing between styles.

I think he's ful of sh!t. no way this guy has ever fought and still make the comments he's made so far.

[PangQuan]

ready stance (http://www.history.appstate.edu/images/TalentShow5.jpg)

[red5angel]

My wife rocks with these things:

Stix (http://www.history.appstate.edu/images/TalentShow6.jpg)

She used and taught people how to use them for about 12 years out at the Ren Fest.

[5 Venoms]

personally this 5 Venoms guy seems like a d!ckweed. I have to believe he's a troll.

Lol, nice to hear from the twat brigade! I was going to ask about your credentials, but I see you post so much that I doubt you have any time to train.

Fa Jing, I don't have all day to argue or defend the statements that I've made. You mentioned that the Praying Mantis instructor has 20 years in his art. That's very good but again, I need to ask if that was him in the video or was that one of his students? And I never said any fighter can always blow away his opponent. But I can guarantee you if any good WC fighter were to cross arms with an oppnonet, there would be a lot more punches landed than what took place in the video.

I don't know the Wing Chun sifu you mentioned but I have met William Cheung and he's one of the nicest people I've met in the martial arts community. I started training with Chung Kwok Chow and have been with Emin Boztepe for 6 years and I'm also an instructor in another style of martial art. I do know what sparring is and I say again, the WC guy should not have attempted the high kick. There is no excuse for improper technique. I didn't know this was meant as a casual training video, which if you had pointed that out, I would have watched in a less critical light. I don't have any video of myself, but if you want to see me I'll be happy to tell you where to find me. You can also meet my Sifu Boztepe when he is in town.

But hey what do I know, I've been declared to be 13 by someone who sits online all day and post in message boards. I am truly hurt, how will I ever face my students now. :rolleyes:

Anyways, if you or any of the guys in that video are in my area, I invite you to come for a demonstration and free training class, on a friendly basis. Just send PM me if you're interested. (I'm in So. California)

[Chief Fox]

...I had an argument with someone on this forum a while back...
I dont believe this! :eek:

[red5angel]

ah ha he's a student of boztepe's! that would explain the retarded comments he makes, he's been indoctrinated heavily.


LOL dewd,


I was going to ask about your credentials, but I see you post so much that I doubt you have any time to train.

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret here so you don't look like such a newb. Quite a few of us post here while we're at work. As a matter of fact, outside of work I can probably count the times I've posted here on one hand. That's a freebie.


I am truly hurt, how will I ever face my students now.


funny story. There is a guy down the street from where I live that teaches too. He sucks, but he teaches. Turns out teaching does not make one great.

[red5angel]

I dont believe this! :eek:

no! It's true!

[Chief Fox]

My wife rocks with these things:

Stix (http://www.history.appstate.edu/images/TalentShow6.jpg)

She used and taught people how to use them for about 12 years out at the Ren Fest.

D@mn dude, is that your wife? No wonder you bed everyone elses mom. :D

[SiuLumTao]

If you wanna see real Wing Chun in action, look at my Sifu's video clips:

http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml

[PangQuan]

Nice. I liked the music vid, i dont have sound but good compilation.

Does he have any free sparring vids?

I dont study WC under a master, but I have studied the principles of the Yip Man system.

Your Sifu seems quite skilled.