Help!!!!

[Merryprankster]

So, here I am asking for iron advice from you guys. I've never been able to gain weight. Ever. Back when I was throwing shot, I was 195, 199, tops, and eating like a pig and lifting a lot. That was 10 years ago.

Now, I'm pushing 30, and it seems there's some muscle maturity issues, because I seem to be able to gain some weight now. This is a good thing. I competed at 187 this year, but quite frankly it's getting harder and harder to cut and keep the weight off. Two years ago I competed at 179 at many tournaments. That sounds like a TERRIBLE idea now!!!!

Anyhoo, I'm going to go in the opposite direction. My plan is to put on about 10-12 lbs of quality muscle, then drop around 5 or 6 lbs to make weight at the 188-201 level. This is an improvement over the roughly 15 pounds that I dropped to give myself cushion (they weigh in mat side at the major BJJ tournaments, so you can't rely on "cutting" techniques, you have to build in cushion so you can eat and drink or you'll be weak and dehydrated.)

Right now, I'm doing a two on one off lifting schedule.

Day one

Clean and Press
T-Bar Rows
Towel Pull-ups

Day two

Squat
Bench Press


All exercises are 3x10 for the moment, except the pull-ups which are 3x4 (I've NEVER been good at pull ups), but they will be better soon!


My goal is increased mass. I probably won't gain much more fat than I have now, just because I don't do that (just the way I am), and I'm active.

My thought process was simple: I wanted compound movements, but also wanted a schedule that I could handle while training BJJ heavily to allow for recovery.

I would do power cleans instead of T-Bar rows, but my left shoulder does not externally rotate the way it used to and this puts stress on my elbow like you wouldn't believe. And I have a lower back that is.....less than optimal, or heavy deadlifting would be in the mix without a doubt.

I toyed with the idea of trying to do all of this on the same day and going 3 x per week, but if you've never done 3 x 10 floor clean....well, let's just say I don't think squats on the same day is a good idea.

Thoughts? Comments?

Yes, I'm eating like a horse and doing the protein thing :D

[Chief Fox]

I did the MAX OT workout for about 4 months a year ago and gained about 5lbs with out even trying. Not saying it's the best workout but I did gain weight and strength.

http://www.ast-ss.com/max-ot/max-ot_intro.asp

[fa_jing]

The most weight I've gained so far has been on the Smolov Squat routine. It doesn't leave you much left for anything else, though. Punch it up in Google if you like.

[Akhilleus]

I've been trying to put on some mass too...the difference is I'm not competing for a while...I had some great success with the reduced cardio and increased food consumption and heavy lifting...I went from like 170 to almost 190 in less than 4 months...but I lost a few pounds when I got sick about a week ago...I try to do about 6 reps for each working set...I read in FLEX that eating more meals can help...I know that sounds obvious but usually when I try to gain weight I try eating more in one sitting, I never thought of simply adding more meals...then again, who has time? Anyway like I said I'm trying to gain mass too so I'll let you know if something works/doesn't for me...

[Nick Forrer]

You might be overtraining esp with BJJ- try doing less- less days, less sets.
Could try HIT once a week - 1 set to failure using same exercises. Look at it this way - if you start with the absolute minimum you can only increase the workload if you see no progress whereas if you start with more you have to ask - should i do more or less?

[Merryprankster]

Nah Nick, I'm not sore at all or tired or grumpy or anything. I've been overtrained before.

I'm not having a PROBLEM putting on weight, I'm more poking around to determine if perhaps there is a "better" routine.

[Ford Prefect]

Merry,

The best routine FOR YOU depends greatly on body-type and fiber dominance. Even then, it will take some experiementing to see what is optimal. If I were you, I'd do some reading on those subjects, so you can determine for yourself exactly what type of body you have. From there, there are optimal set-rep schemes for every body type which you can begin to experiement with to see what works best for you.

That being said, the most important factors in weight gain are consistency and diet. What you posted is the a-typical, cookie cutter weight gain routine. It obviously became so for a reason: it works for a lot of people.

[Merryprankster]

Ford,

Yeah, I'm starting from that baseline. 3 x 10 really isn't a bad set and rep scheme, regardless of what people say, and it certainly establishes a base to work from.

I was doing rather well on the following program, before I had to cut weight, and I was doing it three times a week:

Squat
Bench
T-Bar Rows
Hammer Shoulder machine
Shrugs

But I wanted to incorporate some sort of clean into the whole thing - I discovered though that trying to do clean and press and squat on the same day was somewhat....hard. Dangerous hard though, not good hard. I wasn't able to put forth maximum effort in either and my form was suffering. I expected that would lead to suboptimal gains.

I am somewhat concerned with frequency - is 2x enough? I'm not in a race though, I have a year. I don't see that 10-12 lbs over 10-12 months is unreasonable :D

[AndrewS]

Hey MP,

Some thoughts-

-if you're looking to put on mass, you may want to lift less, not more. If you're committed to lifting 4x a week, you should probably do 2 hypertrophy type sessions and 2 rehab/prehab/recovery type sessions, though you could probably get the mass you want off of lifting 2x a week.

-no matter what you do you're gonna need to change your exercises or set/rep scheme every 6-8 weeks. One program won't cut it for a year. You could do a straight linear periodization model, or use a conjugate template.

-people talk about the sarcoplasmic reticulum hypertrophying vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy. Supposedly, greater intensity with fewer reps pushes you towards myofibrillar hypertrophy, while 8 rep sets and up lead to SR hypertrophy (which isn't increasing your strength so much as it's the actin and myosin than do the work, hence the idea that having more of them around makes you stronger). Shorter rest intervals also supposedly predispose you to hypertrophy with <2 minutes being ideal. All of this being taken into account, there are a few options you have- a 20 rep breath squat type regimen- supposedly packs meat on you, but it may be more of an SR hypertrophy thing, go for pure strength keeping reps <5 with long rest intervals (3-5 minutes) and see if that gives you strength and size, or do something along the lines of Pavel's 'bear'- doing a 10+ x5 scheme with 60-90 second rest intervals, cutting back the weight after the first set or so. You could also try an EDT routine, though I don't have much experience with those.

-I'm confused- power cleans hurt your shoulders but you clean and press? I presume the reduced weight is how this is not bad? 10 reps on the clean is a bit much by most standards, as I understand it, and is really likely to make your form decay.

All that being said, here's one way of doing things, based on lifting 4x a week.

day #1- Squat based hypertrophy

Cycle oly style back squats, PL squats, box squats, and front squats, spending 4-6 weeks on each. Do either 2 sets of 20 rep breath squats, or 10-15x5 with 60-90 second rest intervals. If you're ballsy, you could try this with overhead squats.
Rows (t-bar, dumbell, barbell)- 3-5 sets, 6-12 reps, 1 min RI cycle exercises and sets/reps
Ab exercise- similar scheme to above, 3-5 sets 6-15 reps, weighted exercise, oblique dominant- side bends, suitcase deads, full contact twist, windmills

day #2- recovery workout
+ bench

Bench 5x5- cycle bench, incline, decline, dumbell, and floor presses. Maybe some board presses if you get bold. Frankly, bench pressing rocks my shoulders. You could try a higher volume workout here, but I doubt you'd be able to function with it.
Pullups 3-6 x3-6.

I'd do one of the above with a short RI, one with a long, otherwise you'll probably fry yourself pretty quickly.

Bodyweight squats or light front squats or light back squats or light overhead squats- 2-4 sets of 20. Just to do some active recovery for your legs.

day #3 Posterior chain hypertrophy
Another day of 10-15x5. You could do some high pulls here if power cleans bug your shoulders, also sumo DL, regular DL, SLDL, etc.
Shrugs 3-5 x 6-10
Maybe some pullthroughs 3-5x 6-10 for your gluts here.
Ab exercises- a little more rectus and hip flexor work- hanging leg raises, weighted crunches on the swiss ball, y-sits, wheel, same rep scheme as day 1.

day #4 recovery and presses
Clean and press for 5x5. As long as you're working with weights significantly less than your previous day, this should be a nice recovery workout for the posterior chain. If not, do your presses from the rack, and do 3-5x 15-20 DB or k-bell swings for some recovery.
You could throw one more exercise in here if you're compulsive, or have something specific to address.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

[Ford Prefect]

2x each workout a week? That's more than enough. For your goals, I bet you could even get by on 3 workouts/week:

Monday: Workout 1
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Workout 2
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Workout 1
Sat/Sun: Rest
Monday: Workout 2
Etc


Just be sure to swap out exercises, exercise order, and/or set-rep schemes every month or so. Your body adapts to new stimuli more quickly than it does an established one. The Law of Diminishing Returns... You can use that to work in cleans, heavy dl's, and other exercise variations. Unless you're training to be be a competitive weight lifter, there really isn't a need to do all of them at the same time or in the same day especially with all the other BJJ stuff you're doing. That's a recipe for disaster unless you train full time.

When you're cutting, I'd recommend focussing more on maximal strength. Work in the 2-5 rep range. Not only is it not as energy-intensive on a body that is on a reduced calorie diet, but it will also be a welcome change to all your high volume work. You should be able to make some quick progress.

[Akhilleus]

I just picked up some weight gainer today...will keep you posted on how it works...

[Mo Lung]

I just picked up some weight gainer today...will keep you posted on how it works...You're not just gonna chow down weight gainer though, right? Right? You have a workout plan all set up to work with it.

Right?

;)

[Akhilleus]

You're not just gonna chow down weight gainer though, right? Right? You have a workout plan all set up to work with it.

Yeah I lift weights...but is there anything special I need to know...I mean that isn't written on the container? I thought I could just take it about an hour before i work out or an hour before bed? Is there anything else I need to do?

[Merryprankster]

Well, my routine seems to be working. There is already a noticeable difference in size and strength - noticeable enough that my teammates have commented on it and I can feel it. My legs and ass are definitely bigger since my pants dont fit any more (waist is FINE, for all the doubters, just tight in the legs).

As far as supplements go, I'm taking

Alpha Male
Colforsin
Multivitamin
Light Force Ultimate Greens
Glutamine
Whey Protein
Glucosamine + MSM

And eating like a horse. Yeah, I'm carrying about 4 extra pounds that aren't needed, but that's not bad considering everything, and I'll be able to lose those easy. I can't say how much effect the Alpha Male and Colforsin have or the Ultimate Greens, because I am VERY suspicious of that sort of thing. However since it seems to be working, I'm loathe to change anything up!

I will say that I can't sing the praises of glutamine and extra protein enough. I feel incredible, and my recovery time and immune system are fantastic.

[rubthebuddha]

merry -- other than your partners admiring your physique and your pants needing replacement, do you have any quantifiable results? any numbers gone up on weights/reps/etc.?

[Merryprankster]

RTB,

Oh, sure.

Clean and press went from 115 to 125
Bench went from 175 to 185
Squat went from 195 to 205
T-Bar Rows have gone from 90 to 95

All of these are workout weights. I've not done any 1 RM stuff so it's all what I'm using to workout with.

Pull ups are hard to measure because I had to start doing assisted ones - the full on ones were bothering my shoulder. Until I'm strong enough to accomodate continuous tension, I'll have to stay on the assisted machine. I can't bottom out on the hang because my shoulder doesn't do that anymore, so I have to stay flexed enough at the bottom - and that's tiring. I didn't feel I was getting much out of that. Too much strain on the JOINTS.

Right now though, I expect my increases are largely from getting used to the movements again. Everything is "grooving" better now. I could probably throw significantly more weight on the squat, I'm guessing 20 lbs, but why? I'm not in a race and have no desire to risk knee or back injury (chronic problems for me). Slower is safer in this instance.

I'll be bumping up all the weights another 5 lbs this week, and just try to crank out more pull ups. When I hit 15 per set in the pull ups in my current scheme, I'll up the resistance and decrease to 3x10.

[AndrewS]

MP,

any more thoughts on colforsin? The claims over at t-mag are pretty extreme. I'll admit I'm tempted, though the question 'why do a new, relatively untested compound when I could do something known and safe (oxandralone)' does spring to mind.

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

I don't know yet about colforsin. I can't tell you yet what it is or isn't doing. There are too many variables.

My fat gain is relatively low, but I don't pack on fat much anyway.

I'll tell you what I DO like, and ran out of - Bodyquick. That stuff actually works. More energy without the jitters.

I don't know that oxandralone is safe. It is an anabolic steroid, after all.

[AndrewS]

MP,

ox is a known quantity, used in HIV wasting, cirrhotic wasting syndromes, COPD, and for wound healing. While I wouldn't call it risk-free, used for 2-3 mos at 10mg 1-2x a day, it's definitely low risk compared to other drugs I prescribe on a daily basis. I'm still not using it (legal, psychological, and 'my fiance will kill me if I use steroids' reasons), but on its own it's pretty safe. Looking through pubmed, I haven't seen major safety issues on colforsin, though most of what's there is IV for heart failure.

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

No, I realize what you are talking about. I was thinking of all factors involved, from legal to physical.

Now, since you can prescribe it, I suppose the legal hurdles are somewhat less :D

[AndrewS]

MP,

while I can write for it, writing it for myself would still be more risk than I'd care to take. I'm pretty protective of my license.

My concern is that if a supplement has a real effect, it can have real side effects- effects that are very poorly defined in the case of supplements.

Anyway- the bodyquicken actually did something. Hmm. You notice an immediate effect?

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

My concern is that if a supplement has a real effect, it can have real side effects- effects that are very poorly defined in the case of supplements.

No doubt. In fact, I would venture to say that if something has a real effect, it probably has a side effect. :D


Anyway- the bodyquicken actually did something. Hmm. You notice an immediate effect?

Yes. I notice an effect within 30 minutes of taking 2-4 pills. It is subtle, in the sense that it's not like heavy doses of caffeine or ephedrine - No jitters or anticholinergic effects. I definitely have more energy.

I am very skeptical of claims from any supplement, so I don't think it's placebo.

[AndrewS]

No doubt. In fact, I would venture to say that if something has a real effect, it probably has a side effect

It's amazing how many people don't understand that. . . or think all prescription drugs are evil, then take anything you can grow, dry, grind, and put in a capsule on the theory that 'natural' substances are better and less harmful. Makes me want to open an arsenic and curare clinic sometimes.

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

Makes me want to open an arsenic and curare clinic sometimes.

I hear you.

Whenever I have to deal with one of those types I usually say "Mercury is natural, and that'll kill you...."

Usually shuts them up.

If not, then the Hemlock gets em... :D