Wing Chun - What if the Enemy doesn't stick?

[cha kuen]

I respect wing chun and I think it's a great art. However, there's one thing that's been bugging me. What if your enemy doesn't stick? If a quick boxer runs in circles throwing fakes and jabs all day, what does wc do? I know that the WC guy can charge and eat up space to get in his fighting range... but what if it's a big open area? Any thoughts?

[Metallica]

Hi Cha Kuen,

If you don't mind, can you tell me what style do you for a start?

Wing Chun as in any martial art have both contact training and non contact training.
Despite being known for its medium to close range techniques, Wing Chun training encompasses all the range starting from long range to medium range to close range.

To answer your question: what if the opponent does not stick?
In Wing Chun, if the opponent does not stick, we will just hit, or we can force the opponent to stick, even for a split second. Remember, we do not stick for just the sake of sticking, we stick with objectives in our mind, and the objective is to knock the opponent down in the shortest time as possible
Well trained Wing CHun guy does not have to rely on sticking all the type, he can even purposely destroy any bridge contact.

Your second question: what if it is an open area?
Not sure where are you going with this, but I think environmental factor does not matter. Regardless of the style, one should be able to fight in open area, back alleys, in a bar or anywhere else. So, I don't see the point of you asking such question.

[tsb]

Cha Kuen,

Please elaborate on the situation you have in mind and the attacker's tactics when you refer to a "big open area".

Thanks

[El_CLap]

Hmm...guessing I'd think he's referring to someone who won't actually engage who just runs. Someone you have to chase. Usually I chase them into a wall if necessary, but if it's an open area then it's impossible.

[tsb]

Why would you need to defend yourself against someone who is simply going to run away from you?

[El_CLap]

By running I don't mean running away. I mean backing out of striking range, only to jab again later.

[tsb]

I believe that if your footwork is strong enough, sticking and moving forward as they retreat should be possible. When watching pro boxers, the separation after an exchange is usually small enough that following and sticking is possible.

[Sihing73]

If an opponent engages even for a moment it is possible to bridge with him. Also it is usually faster to go forward then to go backwards. A fast opponent who gets in and jabs can be a problem but only if you lack the mobility to engage once he jabs.

Peace,

Dave

[cha kuen]

Wc reacts and tries to bridge against a jab? I train northern shaolin and mantis. I have seen a few wing chun guys from the Bay Area WC group. Most of the time, I only see WC as a close fighting style. That's why I brought up the " open area." In an open area, a WC guy may have a hard time getting into his range because the boxer or enemy can be moving in constant circles while the WC guy charges in straight lines. Does WC go with a BIL TZE against a jab to get in?

[Sihing73]

Hi cha kuen,

WC may indeed go with a Bui Tze against a jab. However herein lies the problem; You can become caught up in the game of chasing the hands. WC teaches one to attack the center, or other areas too /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , if the hands are not a threat to me and do not hinder my attack then I strike. If the hands interefere then I bridge and nuetralize them, then strike. There are many options available to deal with a jab, you can move your body or step, yes, WC does both of these things /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As to WC being a close range system, this is essentially correct. Still, once contact is made, the range is right to apply techniques. In other words, WC has kicks and long range movements as well, we just like to get a little closer /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you are in an open area and have an opponent who tries to hit and run then you need to be good at facing and stay mobile. But, remember, WC does not chase hands. If the opponent attacks and is too far away to hit me, why should I react? He must close to striking range to do me any harm. Once there, the opportunity to bridge is there. Then it becomes a game of who is better trained. Too often, many WC people become rigid and immobile, then an opponent who likes ot move and jab can be a problem. The failing is not in the system but in the practicianer. Believe me, I used to be rigid, accoridng to my current instructor I still am /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't get caught up playing the opponents game. If he wants to dance wait, sooner or later he must come to you. When he does, be nice and give him something to remember you by /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

with the hands in centre most boxers i have encountered tend to be unsure of how to enter & use their jab as you are in centre,i don't if is a subconscious thing that they no they have to go around you or not but i have found they can actually find it hard to enter with thier jab.
if they do use it,it can be quite easy to follow it back in as they tend to return the hand straight back to alongside the face.
the hole thing can also come down to your comitment to enage as soon as he /she even looks like moving into your range(which he must do if he is to even use his jab let alone any other strike)
by the way if you don't mind me asking who said that a wing chun man only charges in straight lines?
angles of attack(and defence)are very important in wing chun,also if you think a wing chun man will only stand still & make themself an easy target then you have also been, unfortunatly, misinformed.a good wing chun man will even to a degree look like a boxer when moving but without all the bouncing around due to fact we like to keep our feet firmly on the ground(among other reasons).also in wing chun the preffered stepping method is to shuffle.the problem that can come with bouncing around can be if your caught half way through the movement it is a lot easier to be knocked down.an interesting note is that in the old days boxers also used to shuffle due the fact that they fought on uneven surfaces with shoes with very hard soles that would in no way have allowed for the bouncing that you see in the ring today.
today they have rubber soles on canvas that would make it near impossible for them to shuffle.
biu jee wouldn't be the method of attack unless there was a reason to use technics from this form(again there are many reasons why you would or wouldn't use biu jee but unfortunatly i don't have half the night spare). most technics would come from the first form with movements from the second also being extremely vital with an opponent who can move very well.
sorry i forgot to add that if he moves around throwing lots of fakes,he will again at some stage have to come into your range as well,won't he?
a good wing chun man in, all honesty, should be straight onto him the very first time he moves into range or even just as soon as he moves period.
like i just said the moment he moves into range you should be all over him but if he is exceptionally quiuck you would just let him move around and waste his own energy because if he truely does want to fight he will come back into range anyway.
good post & cool question
vts

[Wah Ren Jie]

Hey guys!!! Just a question. I don't study Wing chun, but I respect it a lot. In your opinion, what do you fell is the average amount of time it takes to use the system somewhat effectively? Peace.

[Sihing73]

Hi sei ping dai ma,

The answer to this question will vary from school to school and the intent or focus of those teaching. In my first WC class we did nothign but forms for the first six (6) months with no contact. However, my second school began contact trainging my first night.

I woudl tend to say that a person could be reasonably proficient in using WC for defense within six (6) months of serious training. However, I would caution that there is a lot more to be grasped and will require a much longer committment. Still, for basic fighting ability six months would seem a good average.

Peace,

Dave

[cha kuen]

What can you use in the 6 months of training for self defense? Is it the chain punching or?

[Sihing73]

cha kuen,

I owuld expect a student of mine to be able to utilze the chain punching, although that is hardly something I would concentrate on. I would expect him to be able to use Gaun Da, Pak Da and Taun Da with side stepping and stance turning. I believe that these three core movements will enable him to defend against many of the techniques he will encounter on the street. Of course, there is more to it than just these three but these would be the core upon which i would build the rest.

Peace,

Dave

[HuangKaiVun]

In my own experience, the Wing Chun style is meant to be liberally interpreted to provide both short and long distance techniques.

This opinion was corroborated by a Yip Man-Yip Chun authenticated lineage holder.

"Sticking" is an exercise designed to teach beginners how to spar in a controlled fashion.

In almost every instance I've done chi sao with advanced WC practitioners, the sticking "degenerates" into all-out sparring.

If you look at the awful Hong Kong movie "Bruce Lee, the Man and the Myth" featuring the imitator Bruce Li, it features a display of how chi sao can degenerate into a non-sticking situation (Yip Chun is in the movie playing his father!)

The Chum Kiu form teaches a great deal of evasive and circular footwork, and a liberal interpretation (the point of Wing Chun) will provide anybody with a complete arsenal of footwork to fight any boxer (or any martial artist, for that matter).

[vingtsunstudent]

i would tend to agree with sihing in saying that it will vary from school to school this can also be attributed to the fact that some have begun to stray from wing chuns basic principles(unfortunatly).if however the school is of a good standard i would be of the belief that in 1 year of hard training you should be more than able to handle yourself.
you should also take into account your indervidual learning abilities as i have found that sometimes it can take some people up to ten times longer than others to grasp wing chuns true fighting philosophy.
vts

[Twinsen]

Greetings my friends,

How high does Wing Chun style kick?

thanks,

------------------
~Guybrush~

[Sihing73]

Hi Twinsen,

There are various lineages of Wing Chun. However, I think it safe to say most branches owuld opt for low or mid-level kicks. By thisI mean waist level or below. The reasons would be practicality and maintainance of structure or balance. Of course, there are exceptions.

For example, I have been know to kick my opponent in the head....of course I had already broken his structure and he was bending over bringing his head to a point where I did not have to reach that high /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Peace,

Dave

[sifu dan]

wing chun vs. oxing is tough,only because you cant get to caught up in thinking. against a boxer,i suggest keeping your weight on your rear leg,and keep poking your foot jab,when he gets close,then with good timing,pick a time and enter. i like to enter off his jab,you can send his energy back int him,if you enter correctly.the hardest thing i found was when a boxer using a jab hook,wit the same hand.if yo did a pak da entry on hs jab,nd off your pak,he usd that energy to throw he hook,you beeter have your wu sau up.also,if you pak correctly and send it back into him,you will be ok.stickin isonly for tims when the speed of yours and your opponents hands are to fast to block,stick and feel.same with trapping,you will never trap 2 hands on top of each other in the street.alot of street guys bhave no form,you must blast down the middle if they swing wild. most boxersand thugs are ovrwhelmed with the chain punch and front kick combined.use hands and feet,and the boxer cant match. however,boxrs hit and get hit all day,if you train wing chun drills all day,and dont get hit,a boxer will have yo for lunch.

[Hing]

Hey Guys how about shin kicking on a boxer. Why bother with ''sticky hands''.
Most boxers would leave their stance to attack.
Too much emphasis on sticky hands and violence if you try to knock out in one blow.
Kung Fu is only for self-defense.

[vingtsunstudent]

hing
kf is only for self defence?
who taught you that nonsense and also who said anything about using kf and trying to knock them out with 1 punch?
please explain?
by the way a shinkick to a boxer isn't always going to work either.
vts

[Valraven]

Rember that Wing Chun's trapping range is, in reality, very fleeting. Wing Chun guys know this and their fighting strategy will adapt.
Also remember that Wing Chun was designed to defeat Shaolin Kung Fu. Not western boxing.
This is not to say that they can't defeat a boxer, its just not what the art was developed for.
When someone goes to engage, that is when Wing Chun acts. Not while someone is dancing
around outside of kicking range.

[vingtsunstudent]

if a fight is iminent, as the case will quite often be if someone is dancing around you wanting to fight, wing chun players will not always wait for the opponent to engage, just as all styles should, wing chun has many entry technics & i can tell you that i have personally found them to be quite affective on boxers.
vts

[Hing]

Valraven.

Your point that Wing Chun was devised to use against Shoalin is incorrect. Ng Mui was a nun of Shoalin, who was Yim Wing Chun's teacher. So why would the nun do that.
Where do you get your info from?

[cha kuen]

Truthfully, the way many sifus teach today, a 5 year boxer can wipe the floor with 90% of the kung fu guys today. It breaks my heart to say that but it's true.

[Hing]

Valraven.

Your point that Wing Chun was devised to use against Shoalin is incorrect. Ng Mui was a nun of Shoalin, who was Yim Wing Chun's teacher. So why would the nun do that.
Where do you get your info from?
vingtsunstudent
You seem to be a true MASTER.
Your answer to your question is my mother taught me that ''nonsense''
Who taught you that kf was not for self defense only.

[This message has been edited by Hing (edited 09-12-2000).]

[cha kuen]

The way many sifus teach today, a good 5 year boxer would kill 90% of the kung fu guys today.

[Hing]

Cha Kuen
I totally agree.
So why are you interested in kung fu? Why not boxing?

[cha kuen]

I have learned simple techniques in kung fu that have everything boxing has and more. Especially if you learn a style like praying mantis. To keep it short, I have a sifu who knows how to teach true traditional kung fu.

[vingtsunstudent]

i am sorry hing but we are talking about wing chun & if you think it is for self defence only then you are sadly mistaken but then again you are entitled to your own opinion.
my wing chun comes via wong shun leung & barry lee both of whom were well known in hong kong for fighting challenge matches, again i don't mean to be rude but what is your style & were you taught by your mother or is that just her phylosophy on the martial arts?
vts
ps at which piont did i claim to be a master?

[Sihing73]

Hello Hing,

you posted:
"Valraven.
Your point that Wing Chun was devised to use against Shoalin is incorrect. Ng Mui was a nun of Shoalin, who was Yim Wing Chun's teacher. So why would the nun do that.
Where do you get your info from?"

Wing Chun is traditionaly known to have been developed to help revoluntionary fighters oppose the Ming. Since many of those in the army had been exposed to Shoalin and because of the story of a renegade Shoalin Monk, Meng Er (?) /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif many of the techniques were designed to fight Shoalin type of techniques.

Wing Chun is an ecletic systme and seems to be a distillation of the concetps of many other systems. It seems to have been created to oppose the deeper and lower stances of some others. There were other sysems besides Shoalin at the time to be used to fight so it is not likely that Wing Chun was designed specifically for use against Sholina only.

As to the story of Ng Mui the story is that she developed Wing Chun after the burning of the Shoalin Temple and was afraid that some Ming taught Shaolin by Meng Er would hunt her down. So, she developed a system more in line with her advancing age and needs as a woman. Nice story.

Bottom line is that Wing Chun was created specifically for combat. It is a true revolutionary art in that it was designed to fight other martial arts in use at thte time by those in the government. Still the history is so shrouded that we may never know the full story.

Peace,

Dave

[Valraven]

Dave is right.
Also, the belief that Ng Muy was the creator of Wing Chun is held by many to be no more than a myth. It is also thought by many that Wing Chun's current state was refined
primarily on the streets of Hong Kong in mostly modern times (Yip Man era).
Who knows for sure, but make no mistake, despite when it was invented, Wing Chun was devised to combat "Shoalin like" styles.
Valraven

[Hing]

Thank you for enlightening me Valraven,Sihing 73.
Cha Kuen Why did you post the question ''what if your opponent doesn't stick'' If you have a Sifu why not ask him or are you having a dig at Wing Chun?
Does he know what ''sticky hands'' is for?

[The Iceman]

If the opponent disengages attack!!!!!!!!!!!

[vingtsunstudent]

presuming we are still talking about someone who is intent on fighting, you would(or should) follow them & continue attacking until they are no longer a threat.
you would not(or should not) allow them to get away as this gives them a chance to regroup & possibly turn the outcome of the fight in their favour.(you will generally find that someone who is constantly trying to move away is not comfortable at this range, so your intention is keep them as uncomfortable as possible)