So much for gass getting cheaper

[Royal Dragon]

We needed to see a close below 1500 today. This would have signaled a down turn in the market. Instead it gave a signal like it's going to go back up, or at least float around the same area for the next week or so.

And I was hoping to short sell this one in the moning. :confused:

http://www.futuresource.com/charts/charts.jsp?s=HUN05&o=&a=D&z=610x300&d=medium&b=bar&st=

[Mr Punch]

Good. I hope the price rockets, so people start using their cars more responsibly, the govt starts looking after rural communities where necessary (or they strart looking after themselves), the global economy becomes a strictly supply-demand freemarket economy for necessary tradeables rather than one based on subsidies, protectionism and flying flowers for your mom two-thirds of the way round the world via Amster-bleedin-dam, companies look for an alternative to overusing disposable plastics, and no ****er ever buys a ****ing SUV ever again.

:D

[red5angel]

I'm with mat, I hope the fukkers that bought up all the SUV's and Trucks they don't need to get around in are enjoying the gas prices. I fill up the tank about once every 7-10 days, thank you honda civic and the Metro Transit system.



I thought this post was going to be something like this?

So much for gass getting cheaper

So I had a date with this chick last night.......

[PangQuan]

I say we put all the gas in a giant crater and burn it.

[Royal Dragon]

I have a Huydai Elantra with a litte 4 cyl in it. Even though I drive all day, I only put gas in it like twice a week.

Still though, I also have a 350 hp Tuned Port, Fuel injected IROC Z-28 Camaro too, and you know damm well, gas prices or not I'd be driving that if it didn't have only two gears out of 4...of course now I have the excuse I need to put in that Corvett trans I have been wanting ;)

[David Jamieson]

I ride a zx6 kawasaki ninja (heh heh, of course it's a ninja!)

and we also have a hyundai santa fe, which is also sweet.

summer time, the bike gets pref. UNless i'm shopping for greatswords or something then i gotta take the suv

[MasterKiller]

I drive 300 miles/week roundtrip to work, so even my little Nissan Truck goes through about $30/week right now. :mad:

[Oso]

funny, this is something I think about a lot.

check me on this:

A 2005 Chevy Tahoe gets 15/19 out of its 5.3 V8.

A 2005 Honda Civic gets 32/38 out of it 1.7 I4.

Given that the 1.7 is less than 1/3 the size of the V8, shouldn't it get about 3x the mileage if it were to be a more efficient engine?

3x the mileage of the 5.3 would be 45/57.

So, wouldn't that mean that the 5.3 actually uses it's energy production more efficiently???

and the Tahoe is pushing a 4wd system as well.

[PangQuan]

I get the best mileage. Two legs, and some huffing.

[David Jamieson]

read: Lemonaid / consumer reports and Jdpower associates releases.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Domestic vehicles : Ford / Chrysler/ GMC and their subs do not stand up to the quality and value holding of Japanese and Korean vehicles.

All in all, nothing beats European vehicles for value holding and quality. BMW, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen to name a few.

in 2005 hyundai motor company of Korea has consistenly laid the smack down on domestics in ability to hold value,safety and quality of the vehicles themselves and fuel efficiency.

In a side note, Chryslers are the worst performing vehicles and not really a sound purchase option. With ford and GMC running neck in neck.

OSO- pure cc's and block size isn't the measure of fuel efficiency. There are several factors, but essentially, the combustion engine really can't be improved upon much more. the basics of it's function have been at the apex for some time now. It is FI systems, Carbs and other peripheral items on the engine taht make a difference now. fwiw it is F1 racing technology that determines what the next breakthroughs in combustion engine technology are going to be.

[MasterKiller]

fwiw it is F1 racing technology that determines what the next breakthroughs in combustion engine technology are going to be. So sport performance initiates innovation in a thoroughly developed and tested field....who woulda thunk it?

[David Jamieson]

that's what I said!

there are no fraudulent or charlatan F1 drivers out there, let me assure you of that. You either do the indy or you don't, no coulda shoulda woulda about it. :D

[Oso]

so my math was faulty?

I realize there are more varialbles than just size of the engine but unless my math was wrong (which it might be) then the smaller engine in the example gets less mpg per litre of displacement.

another thing that I know for sure is that the Tahoe does not suffer any noticable decline in efficiency when fully loaded...it will still get the same mileage fully loaded as empty. I don't know that the Civic would hold at the same mpg with 4-5 people in it but I've never owned a Civic. Most smaller cars I have had work a lot harder to haul around a full load as compared to the Dakota, F150 and Tahoe I have had in recent years.

Which brings up another note: I had a 97 Single Cab 4WD Nissan P/U that got 14/16 because the transmission was geared down so as to give the little I4 some torque.

I traded for a 99 Dakota crew cab 4WD with a 318 and it got 14/18
????

I'm not debating that too many people drive too big a vehicle for no purpose.

A soccer mom w/ just two kids and a husband doesn't need to be driving a 7 seat SUV all day long.

My point is about the relative efficiency of the vehicles themselves. A spin is placed on the actual low number on the sticker versus any sort of ratio of MPG vs. size of the engine/passenger capacity/hauling ability.

again, just something I've thought about and done crude math on, nothing more.

[wdl]

Oso: Torque is your friend. :)

About you people B|TCHING about people using their gas wiser leave me the F out of it. I own a 98 Accord, 4cyl, 5sp, ULEV, etc. etc, for over two years now I've already been cuting my driving out. I used to drive 40k a year. Right now I'm driving about 20k a year and I'm making ALOT less money. It's NOT freaking worth it where I live. Screw the world, drive your car. Although I love my accord and I will probably get another after this one.

-Will

[red5angel]

My point is about the relative efficiency of the vehicles themselves.

While that may be your point Oso, it's still an invalid defense for larger vehicles, if that is what you were trying to do. the simple fact is that larger engines, efficient or not, use more gas then smaller engines, and many people, as a matter of fact I would say MOST people, drive vehicles that are way too big for their needs.

Like people who justify driving trucks because occasionally they can haul stuff. Or people who drive gigantic SUV's/Hummers because it sometimes snows.

On the former - if you don't do construction or haul large pieces of crap all over the place as a job, then you don't need a truck.

On the Latter - I drove a Tracker for 5 years in minnesota and it outperformed every 4 wheel drive vehicle my freinds owned, and the frigging thing was 2 wheel drive! I never got stuck. My roommates Bronco got stuck all the time on our steep drive. I never spun out, and I got roughly 32 mpg freeway.

[ZIM]

Heh. I got a truck. :D

You know, I don't really care about the price of gas[s] as long as the ME stays the F out of our lives. If they'd just shut up, leave Israel alone, stop the terrorism and go back to their Fred Flintstone wastelands, they can raise the gas to $10/gallon for all I care. It's worth it if I don't have to hear the Black Speech of Mordor anymore....

[red5angel]

Heh. I got a truck. :D

You know, I don't really care about the price of gas[s] as long as the ME stays the F out of our lives. If they'd just shut up, leave Israel alone, stop the terrorism and go back to their Fred Flintstone wastelands, they can raise the gas to $10/gallon for all I care. It's worth it if I don't have to hear the Black Speech of Mordor anymore....

Don't worry Zim, the war was about oil, that explains why the price of gas is dropping......

[norther practitioner]

In theory, internal combution cycle (gasoline engines) can only have ~ 35% effieciency or something along those lines, the diesel engine, which uses the Otto cycle is slightly higher...

It's been years since I've looked at this, but thats the theory between how much engergy is actually captured compared to what can be given the energy cycle.

Oso, if you want to underrstand all that crap given a car and an engine, you only need a masters in mechanical engineering and about 12 credit hours in thermodynamics. Neither of which I'd wish on anyone...lol

[ZIM]

Don't worry Zim, the war was about oil, that explains why the price of gas is dropping......
Its going up becoz everybody's panties are in a knot. They're fearful of the future, what with Iraq & Iran. What's funny is, most of our own oil comes from Canada & So. America/Mexico.

We should just tell those illegals to bring a gallon of gas with them. We'll be full up in no time flat.

[ZIM]

Oh, completely forgot!

What do you think? (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v434/n7037/full/4341057a.html) Alternative answers coming in about 10 years?

[red5angel]

saw that a day or two ago, pretty cool.

Didn't you hear ZIM we get most of our oil from war.

[norther practitioner]

Don't hold your breath...

[red5angel]

I have no doubt there will be alternatives very soon. everyone in the car industry knows its coming, that's why the hydrogen fuel cell hybrids and so on.

[David Jamieson]

Canada will have the Hydrogen fuel infrastructure running on the 401 from Windsor, Ontario (across the river from detroit) all the way to Montreal. About 900km or so, by 2015.

invest now! w007!!

Oh, and we also have huge proven reserves of natural gas and oil.

in the oil sands alone I think there's something like 180 billion barrels proven and 300 billion estimated.

I have no idea why we're getting fleeced on fuel, there is no shortage really. I guess it's just another whack at the consumers by the end of teh line producers and distributors more than the front line producers. PLus, I wouldn't put it past our governments to be raking in the cash seeing as the tax on a liter of gas is a good chunk of the money.

ah well, sagging economy, what are ya gonna do.
Let's just make the oil boys richer why don't we? lol

[Vash]

Fukc everyone who wants the gas prices to go up. Fukc you all.

I drive 270 miles a week to school, 170 for work, and an extra 45-100 when I pick up my brother from school.

So, I'm looking at about 500 miles a week, if I don't do anything else at all. And I live far out of town, so any activities at all are at least 10 miles away.

I drive a '92 Ford Ranger. I drop about $40 a week in gas.

[ghost5]

I work around most of the car lots in town. On every one of them that sell big suvs and trucks the lots are full. Bar none. The sales people tell us that they are getting traded faster than they can get rid of them.....no joke, most folks don't want them.

I drive a small truck. A 96 S10 with a 4 banger in it. I do work construction and tow my boat. But even my boat only has a 25 HP engine. I would love to have a larger truck but there is no way I am paying these gas prices to drive one.

I just helped a friend trade her car in. It was time, hers' had seen better days. She bought a hybrid which is getting about 46 mpg. This is saving her over $1200 a year in gas at the current prices. Plus she now has a reliable car.

[Oso]

While that may be your point Oso, it's still an invalid defense for larger vehicles, if that is what you were trying to do. the simple fact is that larger engines, efficient or not, use more gas then smaller engines, and many people, as a matter of fact I would say MOST people, drive vehicles that are way too big for their needs.

My point was that all the negative spin is about the fuel consumption of the bigger vehicles when they actually seem to consume less gas per litre of engine size than the smaller vehicles.

You are mixing the points.

I think that my statements prove that larger engines are actaully more fuel efficient.

The latter point of your statement above is also true, I deferred to that point in my earlier post.

In my mind the two points are different issues. IF you have need of the larger vehicle then you are actually not driving a less efficient vehicle....per litre displacement.

[Eddie]

You guys don’t know how good you have it. Down here, petrol is so expensive, most people simply cannot afford to fill up their cars. Most of us down here drive 1300cc cars, only those who get petrol allowances from work drives bigger cars and 4x4’s.

The most ironic thing is, that the cars that are the lightest on fuel are the most expensive cars. My uncle has a new Audi Turbo Diesel, and his fuel consumption is much lower than even my 800cc motorbike. The problem is only, those cars are very expensive, and most of us cant afford the repayments on them.

There have been rumours that our government wanted to start a system where they fine single drivers (who has no passengers) as they say there are way too many of us around, and this leads to increase traffic and added air pollution. Don’t know how that will work out though.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

by now it's probably cheaper in the long run to convert one of your guzzlers to liquid propane and replace it's gas tank with a couple of 75 or 150 pounders....these run hotter and require a larger radiator tank and straight (non mixed) fluid. thier efficiency is generally 18% less than whatever your vehicle gets on gas/deisel. lp weighs aound 5.7 lbs per gallon. :)

[Royal Dragon]

Don't worry boys, just checked the charts. Night tradeing is open, and we are below the majic 1500 mark already. There are several gaps in the charts to fill, so I predict Unleaded Gasoline for July delivery to be a bit below the 1350 level in the comming weeks, probably in 3-4 tops. Of course, that will be right as the summer driving season starts, so it will probably rise up again soon after but hey, that just means there will be two trades to make $$ off of!

The more gas guzzling SUV's this summer, the more gas consumption (Higher demand), the higher the seasonal price climb will go, and the more $$ the traders will make!!

[joedoe]

My point was that all the negative spin is about the fuel consumption of the bigger vehicles when they actually seem to consume less gas per litre of engine size than the smaller vehicles.

You are mixing the points.

I think that my statements prove that larger engines are actaully more fuel efficient.

The latter point of your statement above is also true, I deferred to that point in my earlier post.

In my mind the two points are different issues. IF you have need of the larger vehicle then you are actually not driving a less efficient vehicle....per litre displacement.

Oso, it depends largely on the type of driving you are doing. On the highway cycle, the larger engines even out and even out-perform the smaller ones. In city conditions the smaller engines generally win out. Stop-start traffic is a killer on the larger engines because it burns so much more fuel to get it moving, whereas on the freeway the larger engines can cruise at lower RPMs at any given speed. Basically it comes down to buying the right vehicle for the right reasons.

And as for your maths, you have to take into account vehicle mass when you calculate fuel efficiency as well. An SUV is not 3 times the weight of a smaller car, so you cannot make the comparison based solely on engine capacity.

[Oso]

Oso, it depends largely on the type of driving you are doing. On the highway cycle, the larger engines even out and even out-perform the smaller ones. In city conditions the smaller engines generally win out. Stop-start traffic is a killer on the larger engines because it burns so much more fuel to get it moving, whereas on the freeway the larger engines can cruise at lower RPMs at any given speed.

agreed

Basically it comes down to buying the right vehicle for the right reasons.

indeed

And as for your maths, you have to take into account vehicle mass when you calculate fuel efficiency as well. An SUV is not 3 times the weight of a smaller car, so you cannot make the comparison based solely on engine capacity.

agreed but the math gets beyond me at that point :D

[red5angel]

My point was that all the negative spin is about the fuel consumption of the bigger vehicles when they actually seem to consume less gas per litre of engine size than the smaller vehicles.
In my mind the two points are different issues. IF you have need of the larger vehicle then you are actually not driving a less efficient vehicle....per litre displacement.


Couple of things here - first if you have a NEED, I don't blame you for driving a larger vehicle. I have friends who do construction and need them. I've also had freinds or co workers who own hummers and when the Dodge Ram first came out with its new look, bought those. Not because they need them, but because it was prestigious to own one.
Here in the north, the biggest excuse is the weather. Research has shown that SUV's don't stop people from having any more accidents, it's pretty level across the field. You could argue that they might be more survivable in a crash, but that's because you're probably crushing the life out of someone driving a more sensible car.
While they MIGHT be more "fuel efficient", it's not the fuel efficiency we're talking about, it's consumption. Atleast that's what I'm talking about.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

In theory, internal combution cycle (gasoline engines) can only have ~ 35% effieciency or something along those lines, the diesel engine, which uses the Otto cycle is slightly higher...

It's been years since I've looked at this, but thats the theory between how much engergy is actually captured compared to what can be given the energy cycle.

Oso, if you want to underrstand all that crap given a car and an engine, you only need a masters in mechanical engineering and about 12 credit hours in thermodynamics. Neither of which I'd wish on anyone...lol

but how much are you willing to spend to get the most out of it? the standard V-6 only get s 15%-18% efficiency. nascar engines get around 60% efficiency on that same 35% mechanical dynamic. this translates into an increase of 400 horsepower over your *****'n 302 block. :cool:

[wdl]

Yes but a NASCAR engine only has to make it through the race, it doesn't have to make 200k+ miles.

-Will

[Royal Dragon]

Damm, were back over 1500....guess it ain't going down yet...

As for a Nascar motor, it will survive 200,000+ so long as it does not see too much time past, or near it's redline limit. Of course you wouldn't win any races keeping it leashed back like that but....

[ewallace]

I bought my 2000 tahoe for one purpose...safety for my little girl who was not even 1 at the time. The day some punk ass 17 year old kid with a honda accord (with the **** can, tin-foil wing and stickers that add 200hp) was speeding, blew a red light, and ran into the back of the tahoe that my former wife was driving made it worth every penny. His car was totaled, accordioned(no pun intended). Good luck finding the tiny dent and scratch on my truck.

I agree most people with suvs don't need them, but I can only say that about the people I know that have them, myself included now that I rarely have my daughter with me. Too bad I'm upside down on the payments, otherwise I would get rid of it for a vette to save on gas and insurance. :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

because of the two s's i keep thinking this thread says so much for grass getting cheaper, and im thankful that i dont smoke it anymore.

[ewallace]

because of the two s's i keep thinking this thread says so much for grass getting cheaper, and im thankful that i dont smoke it anymore.
You're not alone my brother. :D