Principles vs techniques

[SPJ]

We know that both are important to study and master.

Does your school of MA teach both or just drills of techniques?

Are there lessons for theories, tactics and strategy ?

Or you are pretty much on your own in the areas of theories, tactics and strategy?

There are 3 levels of study and practice:

1. Familiarization: learn the moves, techniques; and drill them to perfection with props or partners.

2. Comprehesion: study and know the ins and outs, how the moves or techniques work, knowing the requirements or entries and all the apps etc.

3. Master: all the principles, tactics, strategy and skills of the moves or techniques are part of you. You become one with them. Or your skills are you in one.

What are the precentage of time allotted for practicing the moves vs discussion of theories, principles, tactics and strategy?

:D

[mantiskilla]

Interesting thread. I see a lot of threads talking about techniques, but not too much about priciples. Principles are the most important part of a fighting system. This is what is used, not techniques, in my opinion. My teacher covers tactics, priciples and techniques, but i would say that the principles are most stressed. It permeates everything. Of course, he also shows techniques, but these seem to arise, after a certain point, from the principles of the system, in this way the body can move in a completely coordinated and efficient manner, and then you get power and speed. Hard to say how long i practice moves in connection with discussion. He showed me something a few years ago, and told me to keep doing it, and then a few weeks ago, he showed me why.:)
________
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[FuXnDajenariht]

principles should create spontaneous technique right?

[Vasquez]

There are many techniques which you would sledom use. For example eagle claw has 108 ways to seize, grapple and tackle. Against a common man on the street a simple block and counter will ususally be enough.

[Liokault]

We tend to go light on technique and heavy on principles

[Vasquez]

We tend to go light on technique and heavy on principles

I dig what you're saying. Like I said you only need afew techniques most of the time. The principal is to survive, technique is to block and counter.

[Liokault]

I dig what you're saying. Like I said you only need afew techniques most of the time. The principal is to survive, technique is to block and counter.


Nah that's not what I meant.

In stand up grappling as an example. The main principles are that if your oppositions arms are not covered they will hit you, so you keep in contact with your opponents arms all the time. Now to do this we don't show hundreds of ways to cover arms and get into contact, we show them one or two general techniques then put them on the mats with a resisting opponent and tell them both that if you can you may hit the other person, but you have to start from contact/clinch

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

There are many techniques which you would sledom use. For example eagle claw has 108 ways to seize, grapple and tackle. Against a common man on the street a simple block and counter will ususally be enough.

wow, that's really naive thinking. every time i find some turd on the street it's been doing something for a while.... :rolleyes: and needs to prove itself.

statisrics: roughly two thirds of americans study martial arts at some point before they turn thirty. most don't last beyond three years in anything. however, that means the average person on the street has somewhere between a year and two of training. :) which techniques is he/she going to pull on you?

[Mikkyou]

Does your school of MA teach both or just drills of techniques?
Both.Here's why:the first thing I always say is move out of the way second block or attack this is a very basic principle in our system.This is learned thru one of the Kata.For beginners the focus tends to be more on technique because its very hard to explain to a beginner "don't worry about technique act natural use time and space"Eventually the Beginner starts to see it for themselves by using drills
they start to understand and explaining more pricinples they get the "flow".
Are there lessons for theories, tactics and strategy ? Yep plenty of it :) .
What are the precentage of time allotted for practicing the moves vs discussion of theories, principles, tactics and strategy? I think they should go hand and hand example:When showing a technique I love doing things wrongly on purpose(this shows what happens when you don't follow certain concepts it helps the student see why it is done a certain way)I then show it correctly(textbook first)to show the idea behind the technique(the moving the body,blocking or striking or whatever)Then I like to show it in a realistic way
with resistance and the attacker going fast(never with beginnners eek)This shows
that with correct understanding of principles,drills,and technique it can be applied
in a realistic way.I never go full force with beginners because they are still dealing with Kihon(basics)

[Vasquez]

Nah that's not what I meant.

In stand up grappling as an example. The main principles are that if your oppositions arms are not covered they will hit you, so you keep in contact with your opponents arms all the time. Now to do this we don't show hundreds of ways to cover arms and get into contact, we show them one or two general techniques then put them on the mats with a resisting opponent and tell them both that if you can you may hit the other person, but you have to start from contact/clinch

Good chin na outs pressure on dim mak points and your opponent won't be able to throw a decent punch with the free hand. If he does move, a solid palm to the chest area should be enough.


wow, that's really naive thinking. every time i find some turd on the street it's been doing something for a while.... :rolleyes: and needs to prove itself.

statisrics: roughly two thirds of americans study martial arts at some point before they turn thirty. most don't last beyond three years in anything. however, that means the average person on the street has somewhere between a year and two of training. :) which techniques is he/she going to pull on you?


They aren't seriour maers anyway. without the spiritual background its hard to think their techniques will be effective. all they try to do is punch and kick faster - scrapping I imagine. LOL

[Mr Punch]

Oh, I get it now! This Vasquez guy is a joker! :D

[Vasquez]

Oh, I get it now! This Vasquez guy is a joker! :D

You migh be new to kung fu or new to mma. Once you have reach a stage where you can't kick or punch any faster or harder, you'll consider TCMA

[David Jamieson]

You migh be new to kung fu or new to mma. Once you have reach a stage where you can't kick or punch any faster or harder, you'll consider TCMA


^can we have this idiot banned please? he's an irritatiing troll.
thank you.

[Reggie1]

I don't know, DJ, this stuff is good!


Good chin na outs pressure on dim mak points and your opponent won't be able to throw a decent punch with the free hand. If he does move, a solid palm to the chest area should be enough.

Watch out for teh deadly!!! :D :D



They aren't seriour maers anyway. without the spiritual background its hard to think their techniques will be effective. all they try to do is punch and kick faster - scrapping I imagine. LOL

Spirituality = deadliness. There is no counter for it. :D

[Vasquez]

Spirituality = deadliness. There is no counter for it. :D

If you can accept death as an eventuality you feel calmness in the face of danger. Like the samuari every draw of the sword is filled with spiritual content. Vikings on the other hand rely on brute force and going besserk.

[Fu-Pau]

good grief! :rolleyes:
...Are you actually in the same country as me??

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

^can we have this idiot banned please? he's an irritatiing troll.
thank you.

hello Pot, that is Kettle. you're both black on the outside and metallic on the inside. you both have an impermeable layer of grease which protects you from things that might mar your surface.... :p

[bodhitree]

tecniques and principals are not enough, you need to also include adaptability to every form of counter for when the techniques and principals don't work.

[SPJ]

The study of priniciples and the practice of techniques come hand in hand.

The principles help us to understand how and why the techniques work.

The techniques are applications of principles.

With priniciples, we may derive more techniques.

The study of techniques help us understand the principles.

:D

[SPJ]

In Ba Ji fist;

There is a routine based on Liang Yi Ding.

Ding is from the rear forward.

It comes from the fist, wrist, elbow, hip, knee and foot.

The techniques are numerous.

They are all summarized and understood as Ding.

The fist punch forward, the elbow strike, hip and knee Kao and foot kick etc.

The forearms push downward the opponent's arms from outside first and then push forward his open chest. It is also called Ding.

On and on.

:)

[Normski]

Hi chap and chapesses,

Most authentic systems ,have underlying principles ,which is the core of systems
for example the root of most southern styles ,deal with four principles:

pu=float, which is used to unbalance an opponent

tim= sink. which to used to sink the opponents energy

tun= swallow .to absorb your opponents attack and stay focussed

toh = spit. which is to explode the energy on a target or targets in attack


yours Normski........................................... .........

[canglong]

Saam Mo Kiu "three connecting bridges" teaches that the goal is to view things not at the surface level Fau Kiu but at the core (the true nature of things). All techniques have a concept behind them, all concepts have principles behind them this understanding is yet only San Kiu all techniques, concepts and principles when properly understood and applied are a means to maximum efficiency. When a person attains the ability to utilize their knowledge and skill to achieve maximum efficiency they are said to be in a state of the "everlasting bridge" Weng Kiu. Therefore it is not a question of principle vs. technique but a matter of understanding the true nature of things.

[Ray Pina]

Heavy on principle-based theory and then a whole lot of training to build up ability, work the proper muscle groups, etc., and then put on the gear and train.

When you feel good about it, then maybe go out and test it.

[BAI HE]

What SPJ said. Good post, Ray as well.

tecniques and principals are not enough, you need to also include adaptability to every form of counter for when the techniques and principals don't work.

These counters arise from.... :confused:

Maybe you should then just run.

If you don't have the "principles" in your body or understand them through your training, obviously your techniques will fail, so you better buy a gun or work on the "Nike-Fu".

Without principles, technique and solid Gong-fu? You're not a Martial Artist, you're a b u ll cr ap artist.

[Ray Pina]

Principles are something that you understand in your mind and techniques are something you can do on your body. Principles can not be practiced but techniques can.

The EE professor may be able to teach a EE course in university but the EE technician can fix a broken TV.


Can you practice the principle of absorbing? Two people can be shielding (technique) but maybe only one is absorbing ..... incorporating the principle.

[BAI HE]

Principles can't be practiced?
What do you put in your bong? :confused:

[BAI HE]

No, you have principles of movement that you train in your body and manifest in technique, If the situation does not provide the optimal moment to launch your Beng and never does, do you abandon it?

In XY, principles drive everything, Train the Shen Fa, put the principles in your body and train to make the Beng work in all situations.

If you are relying on the technique of beng, do you think it's extremely hard to counter, avoid or evade? It's a principle. The principle of hitting with the whole body. There is Quinna, and tactical angles and space "eating" elements, but without understanding the principle, you have a "Punch".

[BAI HE]

Okay, this is like Bizarro world..

We are talking about the same thing reversed. It's just flip-flopped.

There's nothing too advanced her at all that I can't unterstand :p


BTW - Beng is a lot more complicated than running the opponent down. :)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Hi chap and chapesses,

Most authentic systems ,have underlying principles ,which is the core of systems
for example the root of most southern styles ,deal with four principles:

pu=float, which is used to unbalance an opponent

tim= sink. which to used to sink the opponents energy

tun= swallow .to absorb your opponents attack and stay focussed

toh = spit. which is to explode the energy on a target or targets in attack


yours Normski........................................... .........

fantastic pun, Normski. Putin's gotta tunna dough. Floatsin qswal lowzhpit. may the Schwartz-think tank like you. :D

rush'em, poke'em, roll'em into guns!