Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight [Archive] - Page 2

Siu Lum Fighter

01-14-2013, 05:06 PM

Some interesting quotes from Showdown in Oakland:

Bruce Lee’s friend, Michael Lai, said, “Bruce hated to lose. If he lost, he would have some excuse and never admitted that he had been beaten fairly. He had ‘nga tsat,’ which is to say he was very cheeky and strutted like a peac0ck. He always acted very superior.”

Lee's sihing, Wong Shun Leung, said, "Bruce Lee was a good fighter, but not as good as movies have portrayed him - almost invincible. People used to see Bruce Lee and have kung fu dreams. They wanted to do the same things he did and duplicate his methods. Unfortunately, it seems nobody wants to wake up."

In 2005 The Contra Costa Times interviewed Lee's friend, George Lee, who was at the fight:
"George offered a little more about the infamous battle that Bruce fought to keep the right to teach martial arts to non-Chinese. He was actually on the scene. As Linda was pregnant, Bruce told her to stay outside because he didn't know what could happen and George stayed outside with Linda."

That last one's interesting. Bill Chen, who was there, said someone kept peeking through the door that led to the back room of the studio. George Lee was supposed to be there to back Lee up should the situation escalate. If we are to assume that Linda stayed with George in the next room, then she couldn't have seen anything in detail since George was trying not to overtly make his presence known and was opening and closing the door slightly just to make sure everything was OK.

LaterthanNever

01-14-2013, 06:18 PM

"To be fair to Linda Lee she had sold the rights to her book (which is interesting and WAY different to the film) many years previously, and she had no creative control over the film whatsoever. I think the producer's paid some lip service to her, but 90 percent of that film is pure fantasy. "

I don't doubt it. Even Jesse didn't want his name used in the movie so they decided on "Jerome Sprout".

As for Dan being the toughest..tough or not tough is a matter of personal tolerance(if one is on the recieving end that is) for pain and what ones frame of reference. Not sure if any of you have touched hands w/ Jesse but even at 77, the man was strong as an ox! I don't mean that Guro Inosanto is not tough..I sure would not want to fight him ever. Why is it even an issue as to which of Bruces students was the "toughest"? Tell you what..dig up Bruce and ask him! :rolleyes:

Sil Lum fighter..I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it does not seem honorable. I take it with a sn such as "Sil Lum fighter" that you are on a personal crusade of sorts to diminish Bruce since he did not promote Northern Shaolin such as Master Wong Jack Man? Either way, you are a "hatchet man". Please do something more constructive with your time.

Siu Lum Fighter

01-14-2013, 08:59 PM

Why are you making an issue out of me just mentioning I thought Inosanto was the toughest? That's just what it seemed like to me from a distance. Sure, I could be wrong, but who cares.

What I'm really trying to do here is clear up the lies surrounding this event. Call me what you will, but I'm merely acting as a truthsayer here. Based on the evidence, it can't be denied that:

1) The fight was not over whether or not Bruce could teach non-Chinese.

2) Bruce Lee didn't win this fight and certainly didn't beat Wong into submission on the floor like Linda says.

If Linda is right, and Bruce really did beat Wong senseless on the floor, then Bruce was lying when he said that he just held his fist over him and got him to say, "I give up" AND Ming Lum was lying when he said Wong had no injuries on his face at all except for a scratch above his eye. Does it still seem unrealistic that she wasn't even in the same room? The room was only 15 feet wide and she was pregnant. People who were there sometimes had to move out of the way as they fought. It doesn't seem realistic that George Lee lied when he said that Bruce told her to "wait outside."

Also, the notion that the fight was over Bruce's right to teach non-Chinese originated with her. Before she claimed this in her biography, nobody said this. This was never mentioned by any of Bruce's students. During my time in Wong Jack Man's class I learned with African Americans, Caucasian people from the U.S. and Europe, and Asian people. So it would seem Linda was publicly making claims about a Northern Shaolin grandmaster that were not true at all. How honorable is that?

LaterthanNever

01-15-2013, 10:37 PM

"Why are you making an issue out of me just mentioning I thought Inosanto was the toughest? "

No sir. I am making an issue with what seems to be (from a distance ;) ) your whole reason for being!(ie: bringing up a fight which took place probably right around the time I was BORN!!)

"What I'm really trying to do here is clear up the lies surrounding this event. "

Is that so? It seems alot more likely that you are trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.(ie: you'll get preferential treatment..or maybe he'll make you a disciple or something else). I can't image that Master WJM would even really care about a fight that judging from your emotional maturity..happened either before you were born or were just a lad!

"1) The fight was not over whether or not Bruce could teach non-Chinese."

Again..I fail to see what lesson is to be gained in the big picture here. It's like if someone has a degree in neurobiology and asking that person what their feelings are about what was the favorite flavor ice cream of the man who discovered the neurotransmitter acetylcholine?(in other words..not really important). Even if as you say...it was NOT over whether or not he could teach non-Chinese..why is this an issue years and years and years later?

"2) Bruce Lee didn't win this fight and certainly didn't beat Wong into submission on the floor like Linda says."

With Bruce dead, pretty much ANYONE who was either there or was not there can say he lost. And even if he did lose..so what?? Muhammed Ali lost some fights..yet noone can deny he was perhaps the greatest boxer who ever lived.

" Does it still seem unrealistic that she wasn't even in the same room?"

Why do you need to speak FOR Master Wong Jack Man? Again..I come back to my original thought here. If you were not in the same room(highly likely), then I think you should not be wearing your bravado..er..lack of authority on the subject on your sleeve.

" During my time in Wong Jack Man's class "

Tada!!! Motive exposed folks!! The emperor has no clothes! Can I direct your attention to the pink elephant in the room please? I was right..you are noing more than a sychophant!

" So it would seem Linda was publicly making claims about a Northern Shaolin grandmaster that were not true at all. "

For someone so vocal, why not contact Linda Lee-Emery and ask her directly instead of doing such a passive agressive thing as bad mouthing her, Bruce and anyone else affiliated with Bruce?

"How honorable is that? "

How honorable is it trash talking a dead man? If Master Wong Jack Man is still ranting about this years later..something is awry. My feeling is that if Bruce were still alive, he would have moved on like anyone with any intelligence. While we are bantering about honor, how honorable is it for a student of a skilled master to engage in back talk behind the scenes? I call it cowardice!

yutyeesam

01-16-2013, 08:42 AM

Laterthannever - if you can, get the book, it's not that expensive, and is very well written. I'm a huge BL fan, and got involved with the CMA's solely because of him.

The reason why this fight has historical and cultural relevance is because it changed BL, it changed his perspectives on how he felt the MA's should be studied, practiced, thought about, and executed. This basically affected millions of people. So it bears some importance on a historical front as to what exactly happened in this encounter that made him change everything, which hyperbolically speaking, changed the world.

Whatever SLF's motives are, doesn't really matter to me.

At any rate, it's a good read. I highly recommend it.

David Jamieson

01-16-2013, 08:50 AM

All these years later and people still can't get it straight.

Typical.

lol

LaterthanNever

01-16-2013, 03:24 PM

YutseeYam,

I could but what's the point? I already know the theme of the book: Bruce lost.
It's like a movie spoiler..once you know the plot and the way things went down..what's the entertainment value

"The reason why this fight has historical and cultural relevance is because it changed BL, it changed his perspectives on how he felt the MA's should be studied, practiced, thought about, and executed."

Indeed. For that it is relevant. It's also possible that there were other factors in Bruces' development which changed his perspective too.

SLF has very different motives it comes thru loud and clear!

Sillimfighter,

Devils advocate here. Let me ask you a question..imagine this scenario ok?

Imagine that the popular view up to this point was NOT that Bruce won the match, but that he LOST. Imagine also, that Bruce were still alive and Master Wong Jack man were the one this time, who was deceased.

Let that settle in for a sec..ok?

Wouldn't you be wondering if a former student of Bruces decides to engage in a smear campaign against Master WJM by running to the kfo forum and saying "guess what..WJM lost the fight...and then..and then..and then.." ..in addition to pushing a book on it? Wouldn't you wonder to yourself "gee..that match took place over 4 decades ago! This guy needs to get a life(the student that is)"

You want to suggest a book for reading..totally fine. It just comes across like you are trying to score brownie points to Master WJM. Enough already!

yutyeesam

01-17-2013, 08:55 AM

Laterthannever -
Actually, he doesn't say that Bruce lost, in the way that we might imagine one losing. In fact, WJM left the fight with a visible wound on him, but Bruce had not a scratch on him. I'll refrain from spoilers, as tempting as it is! :) It's seriously an entertaining read.

It's the context for which this bout took place I find most fascinating.

It's one of those, "The truth is probably somewhere in the middle" books.

At any rate, I hope Gene is able to get in touch with Rick Wing, for an interview. Rick's a talented writer.

Scott R. Brown

01-17-2013, 09:12 AM

Winning and losing is often in the eye of the beholder.

I had a friend many years ago who got into a number of fights in high school. He told me that when he fought it didn't really matter who won or who lost, what mattered was who looked the worst. If you won the fight but looked the worst, everyone would believe you lost. And what everyone believed happened was more important that what actually happened.

LaterthanNever

01-17-2013, 06:26 PM

Kellen Bassette

01-17-2013, 07:41 PM

Winning and losing is often in the eye of the beholder.

One fight I got into, the guy never laid a hand on me. Reached out and tried to choke me from the front with both hands, I knocked his hands down and roundhouse kicked him hard in the leg. His leg gave out and he ran to his house, as fast as he could doing a sideways/one-legged hobble, poked his head out the door and yelled, "I kicked his ***!" Then locked himself in his house.

Winning can be very subjective.

Syn7

01-17-2013, 11:31 PM

If you dummy on some guy and you get arrested and catch a charge and a nice civil suit to boot which awards damages in excess of what you have, did you win the fight?:p

If Bruce Lee got beat up and it inspired him to be better, did he lose?

hskwarrior

01-18-2013, 12:02 AM

At any rate, I hope Gene is able to get in touch with Rick Wing, for an interview. Rick's a talented writer.

i told rick the last time i was with him to get a hold of gene. we'll see what happens. btw......rick is pretty **** good

here is Rick (in the white pants).....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYRKCdrXqUg&list=PL63D37FBC0E051FB7

Scott R. Brown

01-18-2013, 09:10 AM

Scott,

You make a very good point. Criteria for "winning" is relative.

Thinking independently, if Bruce did win the WJM match as many originally stated, would that make him MORE satisfied with Wing Chun as a style and not less?

Wouldn't it mean he would continue his WC study instead of leaving the "classical mess"?

Hmmmm :cool:

As I recall, what Bruce was unhappy about was how long it took to win and how winded he was. He thought he should have won quicker and easier.

Siu Lum Fighter

01-19-2013, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
No sir. I am making an issue with what seems to be (from a distance ) your whole reason for being!(ie: bringing up a fight which took place probably right around the time I was BORN!!)
So why post anything on this forum at all then? Isn't this the place to discuss things like martial history? Discussing the fight that brought about the creation of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do isn't the whole reason for my being. I do find it interesting though.

Is that so? It seems alot more likely that you are trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.(ie: you'll get preferential treatment..or maybe he'll make you a disciple or something else). I can't image that Master WJM would even really care about a fight that judging from your emotional maturity..happened either before you were born or were just a lad!
HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? Wong Jack Man retired in 2005 and I was his student before that. As far as I know he hasn't taught a class since, but I wouldn't know since no one's really seen or heard from him since then. And originally he didn't really care about the fight, not until he started being painted as this evil, prejudiced bad guy who was hell bent on closing down Bruce's school.

Even if as you say...it was NOT over whether or not he could teach non-Chinese..why is this an issue years and years and years later?
It's an issue because that's the story that's still being told online and in magazines. It's an issue because it's NOT true and yet, people want so badly to believe this myth. Why wouldn't I want to defend my former sifu? It reflects badly on me and everyone who ever learned from him if people believe these lies about him. Wouldn't you defend your sifu if someone said he was a dishonorable tool? Or did you learn your stuff from youtube videos?

Tada!!! Motive exposed folks!! The emperor has no clothes! Can I direct your attention to the pink elephant in the room please? I was right..you are noing more than a sychophant!
What motive? Trying to defend a grandmaster of Ku Yu Cheung's lineage who's public image was tarnished by false claims of him being a racist and a coward? Once again, this is just a forum that's meant for these types of discussions. What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago? Some of his students had been learning from him for years and years longer than me and they don't have any contact with him or expect any fringe benefits.

For someone so vocal, why not contact Linda Lee-Emery and ask her directly instead of doing such a passive agressive thing as bad mouthing her, Bruce and anyone else affiliated with Bruce?

How honorable is it trash talking a dead man? If Master Wong Jack Man is still ranting about this years later..something is awry. My feeling is that if Bruce were still alive, he would have moved on like anyone with any intelligence. While we are bantering about honor, how honorable is it for a student of a skilled master to engage in back talk behind the scenes? I call it cowardice!
I would contact her if that were possible. Do you have her number? I would actually love to get to the bottom of how this rumor about Wong Jack Man being a racist who wanted to shut down Bruce's school got started. Maybe this is what Bruce or somebody told her. She wasn't fluent in Cantonese so I'm sure she wouldn't have known what people were saying around her at the time unless she asked them to tell her in English. I'm not condemning her, I'm just curious about where this information came from.

Wong Sifu is not ranting about this. To my knowledge, he hasn't talked about it publicly for over 30 years. And I'm not engaged in back talk "behind the scenes". I'm front and center saying all of this.

I could but what's the point? I already know the theme of the book: Bruce lost.
It's like a movie spoiler..once you know the plot and the way things went down..what's the entertainment value
I never said Bruce Lee lost. Read the book, it's quite entertaining.

Wouldn't you be wondering if a former student of Bruces decides to engage in a smear campaign against Master WJM by running to the kfo forum and saying "guess what..WJM lost the fight...and then..and then..and then.." ..in addition to pushing a book on it? Wouldn't you wonder to yourself "gee..that match took place over 4 decades ago! This guy needs to get a life(the student that is)"
If WJM had said Bruce Lee was prejudiced and tried keeping him from teaching us gwai lo, then I would read the book and wonder if there was anything to this. Let me ask you, aren't you interested in how JKD was created? This is Bruce Lee we're talking about here. Isn't that worth discussing on the Kung Fu Magazine Forums? Otherwise, what's the point of this whole forum? You're on here posting about this subject, shouldn't you get a life then?

Thinking independently, if Bruce did win the WJM match as many originally stated, would that make him MORE satisfied with Wing Chun as a style and not less?

Wouldn't it mean he would continue his WC study instead of leaving the "classical mess"?

Hmmmm
Exacta-friggin'-mundo! Has that ever really made sense to anyone? People aren't familiar with Wong Jack Man. He is a Northern Shaolin grandmaster. It's not like he was some random punk off the street. When Bruce fought him it was a much bigger deal than if he'd just fought some novice who nobody knew. Back then, people in SF's Chinatown knew who he was. He was friends with Ming Lum and many other sifus in the area. If Bruce had won without a doubt it would have been kind of a big deal and his Wing Chun would have been shown to be superior. But no, he "didn't win fast enough"? Once again, read the book. It's quite good.

LaterthanNever

01-20-2013, 08:11 PM

"So why post anything on this forum at all then? Isn't this the place to discuss things like martial history? Discussing the fight that brought about the creation of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do isn't the whole reason for my being. I do find it interesting though."

Again..you fail to get it. The man is DEAD!! There is a famous saying.."those who write history are those who are around to talk about it". It's possible that there could have been quite a few reasons acting in symphony behind JKDs genesis!

"HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? "

No. Jesse is dead as of June of last year. Buried in July. He was also adamant that he didn't teach JKD, but rather "non classical gung fu".

" but I wouldn't know since ...."

Then why get involved?

"no one's really seen or heard from him since then. And originally he didn't really care about the fight, not until he started being painted as this evil, prejudiced bad guy who was hell bent on closing down Bruce's school. "

So if he cares then why not let him issue a statement then? Either in a magazine or on this forum? Shouldn't HE be the individual to speak about this disparity?

"It's an issue because"

Really? Funny. Pretty much anyone I know who studies kung fu..or for that matter, just about any style of martial art who does so for self defense reasons could really CARE LESS about the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. And CARE LESS about the myth of your sifu being painted as a xenophobic control freak. If the story about Master WJM being the one to cry fowl is true or if it's false, I've never heard anyone say "I was feeling pretty desparate since I'm not chinese, but since Bruce broke the mold, now I have hope to learn kung fu". Sure, there are those who are equally interested in the history who pay more attention to it, but it would be a fallacy to say that it was Bruce alone who taught non chinese. The late Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong taught non chinese well before Bruce(if his bio is to be believed) as did Grandmaster Shum Leung of Eagle Claw back in 1972. I'm sure there are plenty of others too. There is this thing called Hollywood and being an actor, Bruces' name was visible probably magnified what other kung fu masters were already doing.

"that's the story that's still being told online and in magazines. It's an issue because it's NOT true and yet, people want so badly to believe this myth."

See above. "SO BADLY"? Outside of the maybe 3% of those who study kung fu who take an interest in the history, I'd say the majority of folks hear it and then go back to practicing!

"Why wouldn't I want to defend my former sifu? It reflects badly on me and everyone who ever learned from him if people believe these lies about him."

I think you are misinterpreting my comments here. It's perfectly honorable and acceptable to defend him. But if you want people to read the book then just say "hey..read this book". It's your way of going about it..like screaming like Geraldo Rivera and pounding your fist like a cheerleader that I think is overkill. You could

" Wouldn't you defend your sifu if someone said he was a dishonorable tool?"

Yes. But I don't think those words were used.

"Or did you learn your stuff from youtube videos?"

Well come out here to Seattle and I'll show you :cool:

" What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago?"

Maybe just an increased feeling of comfort internally that you "settled the score"?
Besides, if someone took the trouble of writing a book about how it really went down, then isn't that sufficient? People CAN READ you know?

"Some of his students had been learning from him for years and years longer than me and they don't have any contact with him or expect any fringe benefits."

Again, why not just let people read the book? .

" Do you have her number?"

No

"I would actually love to get to the bottom of how this rumor about Wong Jack Man being a racist who wanted to shut down Bruce's school got started. Maybe this is what Bruce or somebody told her. She wasn't fluent in Cantonese so I'm sure she wouldn't have known what people were saying around her at the time unless she asked them to tell her in English. I'm not condemning her, I'm just curious about where this information came from."

Thanks to the miracle known as Google, I found this..allegedly quoted from Linda:

"The clash with Wong Jack Man metamorphosed his own personal expression of kung fu. Until this battle, he had largely been content to improvise and expand on his original Wing Chun style, but then he suddenly realized that although he had won comparatively easily, his performance had been neither crisp of efficient. The fight, he realized, ought to have ended within a few seconds of him striking the first blows - instead of which it had dragged on for three minutes. In addition, at the end, Bruce had felt unusually winded which proved to him he was far from perfect condition. So he began to dissect the fight, analyzing where he had gone wrong and seeking to find ways where he could have improved his performance. It did not take him long to realize that the basis of his fighting art, the Wing Chun style, was insufficient. It laid too much stress on hand techniques, had very few kicking techniques and was, essentially, partial."

Tell me something, shouldn't the statements: "his performance had been neither crisp or efficient" and "Bruce had felt unusually winded which proved to him he was far from perfect condition" be a COMPLIMENT to Master Wong Jack mans' ability? I have found nothing thus far where she said anything about him being a "racist" and "coward".

"Wong Sifu is not ranting about this. To my knowledge, he hasn't talked about it publicly for over 30 years."

That should tell you something.

I never said Bruce Lee lost. Read the book, it's quite entertaining.

" Let me ask you, aren't you interested in how JKD was created?"

Sure, but I already know. I did have Jesse as a resource to ask you know? And for that I am grateful.

" Otherwise, what's the point of this whole forum? You're on here posting about this subject, shouldn't you get a life then?"

Man, you know something, you are right! Neither one of us have a life. Whadda you say we both join a circus?

Siu Lum Fighter

02-02-2013, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
Again..you fail to get it. The man is DEAD!! There is a famous saying.."those who write history are those who are around to talk about it". It's possible that there could have been quite a few reasons acting in symphony behind JK!

"HAHA!! Is that how it works in your school? "

No. Jesse is dead as of June of last year. Buried in July. He was also adamant that he didn't teach JKD, but rather "non classical gung fu".

So what, nobody talks about dead people on this forum? No one talks about Bruce Lee even though he's dead? Despite him being dead there's still documentaries coming about him. I think what you really have a problem with is that I'm sticking up for Wong Jack Man. Why is it always bad when someone speaks up for Wong Jack Man's side in this? Throughout the years I've noticed that whenever I do there's always some Bruce Lee fanatic telling me, “How can you say that! The man is dead!”

When I said, “Is that how it works in your school?", it was a reference to your statement that it seemed like I was “trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.” I don't train under people who operate like this. My teachers have judged me by my character and how proficient I am with their art. I don't understand why you're bringing up Jesse Glover. I've never had anything against him but it's my guess you would be more than ready do a character assassination of Sifu Wong.

So if he cares then why not let him issue a statement then? Either in a magazine or on this forum? Shouldn't HE be the individual to speak about this disparity?

Really? Funny. Pretty much anyone I know who studies kung fu..or for that matter, just about any style of martial art who does so for self defense reasons could really CARE LESS about the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. And CARE LESS about the myth of your sifu being painted as a xenophobic control freak.

Um...he has issued statements. There was the Official Karate article back in 1980 (http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html). There was the lawsuit. It was largely because of Bruce Lee's fame and the fanaticism of his fans that he gave up on trying to stem the tide of BS a long time ago. If everyone cared less about this story then why does it show up everywhere? It shows up on countless websites and in countless martial arts magazine articles. It was worked into the major motion picture, “Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story”.

Along with Bruce Lee himself, almost every JKD instructor and friend of Bruce's who ever lived has cited this particular match as the reason Bruce quit practicing Wing Chun. In almost every version of this story out there, the reason for the dispute was because Bruce was teaching non-Chinese. Oh, but I guess everyone could care less.

See above. "SO BADLY"? Outside of the maybe 3% of those who study kung fu who take an interest in the history, I'd say the majority of folks hear it and then go back to practicing!

I think you are misinterpreting my comments here. It's perfectly honorable and acceptable to defend him. But if you want people to read the book then just say "hey..read this book". It's your way of going about it..like screaming like Geraldo Rivera and pounding your fist like a cheerleader that I think is overkill.

People on this forum care about martial history. If it doesn't interest you then maybe you should go back to practicing. I already did.

I have been telling people to read the book! It baffles and amazes me that hardly anyone has. I can't believe how people start threads on this forum about every rinky-dink thing imaginable. They go on and on and on about whether Shaolin Do is for real. Meanwhile a well-researched book about what was arguably the most significant fight in Bruce Lee's life goes unnoticed. I was hoping to discuss the book with people on this thread but instead I get bogged down defending my posts from people like you. Why is it people can be Bruce Lee cheerleaders and dredge up everything about his life again and again and go on and on about how great he was and I can't say my piece on this without being called a hatchet man?

Well come out here to Seattle and I'll show you*

Maybe you can come down here to LA and show me.

" What sort of preferential treatment could I get from a man who retired from teaching kung fu 8 years ago?"

Maybe just an increased feeling of comfort internally that you "settled the score"?
Besides, if someone took the trouble of writing a book about how it really went down, then isn't that sufficient? People CAN READ you know?

Again, why not just let people read the book?

Once again, I have been telling people to read it but besides one person on here, no one's actually commented on it.

Thanks to the miracle known as Google, I found this..allegedly quoted from Linda:

You left out a lot of stuff. Like this:

"...Bruce soon found that at first his views were not shared by members of the Chinese community in San Francisco, particularly those in martial arts' circles. Several months after he and James Lee had begun teaching, a kung fu expert called Wong Jack Man turned up at Bruce's kwoon (school) on Broadway. Wong had just recently arrived in San Francisco's Chinatown from Hong Kong and was seeking to establish himself at the time, all his pupils being strictly pure Chinese. Three other Chinese accompanied Wong Jack Man who handed Bruce an ornate scroll which appears to have been an ultimatum from the San Francisco martial arts community. Presumably, if Bruce lost the challenge, he was either to close down his Institute or stop teaching Caucasians."

It's not because I'm trying to get some sort of special treatment that I'm trying to set the record straight on this. I haven't even talked to Sifu Wong since 2005. I just don't feel it's right that this version of the story is still perpetuated without any sort of rebuttal.

Fa Xing

02-03-2013, 12:17 PM

SLF,

Are you in LA now?

Siu Lum Fighter

02-04-2013, 11:09 AM

bawang

02-04-2013, 04:19 PM

Lucas

02-04-2013, 04:26 PM

wanna fight about it?

bawang

02-04-2013, 04:30 PM

wanna fight about it?

on my way in my helicopter right now

does this match allow steroids or magical talisman?

Lucas

02-04-2013, 05:20 PM

no steriods but you can use charms, talismans and enchanted daggers.

bawang

02-04-2013, 05:37 PM

can i use nigerian spells

nigerian spells are 20% more effective than taoist spells

Lucas

02-04-2013, 05:43 PM

Nigerian spells are actually the prefered choice of magical vehicle.

Here's my collection for my Nigerian magic talismans. Notice how fresh some of them are. I have the good connections.
http://www.africaw.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=392&stc=1&d=1311684650

bawang

02-04-2013, 06:02 PM

can i inhale demonic spirits into my body to enhance my combat prowess?

LaterthanNever

02-04-2013, 08:06 PM

"Well come out here to Seattle and I'll show you*

Maybe you can come down here to LA and show me."

OK , after this thread I am not commenting anymore. You are the one who feels it necessary to resort to ad homenim attacks on my character by saying "you prob learned your forms from youtube videos" and so I said "come to Seattle and I'll show you"..so your REPLY indicates that you are instead looking for some sort of challenge match!

In a word: no :rolleyes:

" I think what you really have a problem with is that I'm sticking up for Wong Jack Man. Why is it always bad when someone speaks up for Wong Jack Man's side in this? "

Have you ever heard of overgeneralizing? ALWAYS bad,etc. I never said it was "bad"(a value judgement). You are perfectly entitled to stick up for Master Wong. As I am perfectly entitled to stick up for Bruce! :confused:

"When I said, “Is that how it works in your school?", it was a reference to your statement that it seemed like I was “trying to suck up to Master WJM in an effort to attain some type of fringe benefit.”

Yes. I still maintain that. Your excess "why don't people listen to me" with such an anger in your voice! And if everyone who has ever studied kung fu regardless of style and everyone for the next 100 years were to read the book, the odds are, the martial arts community would continue to go on like it has been. And no, that's not how it worked in my time w/ Jesse as my instructor.

"I don't train under people who operate like this. My teachers have judged me by my character and how proficient I am with their art. I don't understand why you're bringing up Jesse Glover. I've never had anything against him but it's my guess you would be more than ready do a character assassination of Sifu Wong."

So you are PARANOID too eh? You are trying to turn this into a posthumous civil war in order to stroke your insecutity.I publically ask you to show me where I did a "character assasination" of your Master?! There is this thing called "stirring the pot" which you are doing. I studied 3 Northern styles before I was w/ Jesse(Ba Ji, Ying Jow Pai and Mi-Jong Lo Han).

Um...he has issued statements. There was the Official Karate article back in 1980 (http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html). There was the lawsuit. It was largely because of Bruce Lee's fame and the fanaticism of his fans that he gave up on trying to stem the tide of BS a long time ago. If everyone cared less about this story then why does it show up everywhere? It shows up on countless websites and in countless martial arts magazine articles. It was worked into the major motion picture, “Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story”.

Hey, good for him that he issued statements! And now what? I think you are upset that in spite of the article AND lawsuit on top of that, people don't give either development as much airplay(so to speak) as the alternatve version of the story. And EVERYWHERE? I don't see it on billboards in downtown Seattle by the Space Needle, on TV during the Superbowl commercial and in every article and advertisement in magazines. Other than a mention here and there in a website about Bruce or JKD, I don't see it all that much. There are literally hundreds of martial arts website out there of different schools, martial arts associations, philosophies,etc. If I said that of that #, if it got 3% of the total mention of the content of the collective large # of those websites,movies, books,etc. that would be very generous indeed.

Along with Bruce Lee himself, almost every JKD instructor and friend of Bruce's who ever lived has cited this particular match as the reason Bruce quit practicing Wing Chun."

Jesse never mentioned it on his own volition and free will(did comment on it very briefly once when asked) and neither did Taky Kimura when I met him. And neither did Leroy Garcia when I met him either. For that matter, Linda didn't bring it up when I met her and when I spoke with Pat Strong on the phone we talked about Bruce, Jesse and some others and the match never ONCE came up!

"In almost every version of this story out there, the reason for the dispute was because Bruce was teaching non-Chinese. Oh, but I guess everyone could care less."

There are those who say the earth was flat, that Bigfoot exists, and even if that was true, it wouldn't make one bit of difference in how I live my life! And yes..I still maintain that. No single person I've ever met over the years has once said "yeah, I started kung fu, karate, aikido, judo, JKD, silat,etc. because of the inaccuracy of what they said about Bruce teaching non chinese". Technically, if Bruce taught a Japanese or Korean man, he would have violated the same policy back then. By the way..are you Chinese?

"People on this forum care about martial history. If it doesn't interest you then maybe you should go back to practicing. I already did. "

Double bind and contradictory statement. You can't have it both ways. By saying "I already did"(went back to practicing) you are implying it doesn't take as high a priority.

"I have been telling people to read the book! It baffles and amazes me that hardly anyone has. I can't believe how people start threads on this forum about every rinky-dink thing imaginable. "

You feel that just because people are not as vocal about it that therefore they may not agree. Do you have a camera on everyone who goes to e-bay and puts in their CC # and buys it? Does the author of the book send you an hourly, daily and weekly figure with a tally of #s of how many people buy it? It sounds like you will not be satisfied until Pres. Obama reads an official statement on TV that it didn't go down like it was claimed.

"They go on and on and on about whether Shaolin Do is for real. Meanwhile a well-researched book about what was arguably the most significant fight in Bruce Lee's life goes unnoticed. I was hoping to discuss the book with people on this thread but instead I get bogged down defending my posts from people like you."

Discussing? I don't see a "discussion" at all? I see a "you must believe this view promoted in the book and if not, this is terrible and horrible!" It's a miracle you don't have high blood pressure and an ulcer by now!

"Once again, I have been telling people to read it but besides one person on here, no one's actually commented on it."

I just got done reading the Hsing-Yi book written by Master Lian Shou Yu. It's incredible!! But I didn't comment on it on this forum. Does that mean I didn't read it? If I commented on every martial arts book I read, I'd have several hundred posts devoted just to books!

"It's not because I'm trying to get some sort of special treatment that I'm trying to set the record straight on this. I haven't even talked to Sifu Wong since 2005. I just don't feel it's right that this version of the story is still perpetuated without any sort of rebuttal.

An article in a martial arts mag in 1980, a lawsuit and your "cheerleeding" antics about this innacuracy or supposed inaccuracy qualify as a rebuttal 300%. It's over. The fight is over. Your instructor has moved on. It's done! The fight took place IN 1964!!! I was MINUS three years old then!! If I had to guess, you were not born yet either! So, no..I don't really care. And IF Bruce really WAS the person who broke the centuries old code of teaching non chinese..I'm sure glad he did!! ;) But this is irrelevant..he was NOT the first one!

LaRoux

02-04-2013, 10:30 PM

Who cares who won the fight? Neither one of them was that great of a fighter in the first place.

LaterthanNever

02-05-2013, 02:18 PM

"Who cares who won the fight? Neither one of them was that great of a fighter in the first place."

That's right! We ALL know that LaRoux could have beaten BOTH of them with one hand tied behind his back, macular degeneration, a bum knee and occasional low back pain!

Would have mentioned the obvious in my other post but forgot:

1.) If the fight was NOT b/c Bruce taught non Chinese..then WHY DID THEY FIGHT THEN? :confused:

2.) Did Master Wong only teach Chinese in those years? Furthermore, does he have a policy of only accepting non chinese now?(or did he in the years left up to his retirement). If the answer is "no", then truly the whole matter is irrelevant in the current day and age...:cool:

GeneChing

02-05-2013, 02:56 PM

...mostly because it's held the attention of the martial arts community for so long. It's a true testament to the iconic status of Bruce Lee.

That being said, I also find the story of Bruce Lee's 'fight' with Burt Ward fascinating too. Bruce is fascinating. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42950)

LaterthanNever

02-05-2013, 04:51 PM

"That being said, I also find the story of Bruce Lee's 'fight' with Burt Ward fascinating too. Bruce is fascinating. "

Hard to pick a fav. I'm a fan of Bruce and also Batman! Decisions..decisions..

LaRoux

02-05-2013, 05:02 PM

Siu Lum Fighter

02-05-2013, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by LaterthanNever
OK, after this thread I am not commenting anymore. You are the one who feels it necessary to resort to ad homenim attacks on my character by saying "you prob learned your forms from youtube videos" and so I said "come to Seattle and I'll show you"..so your REPLY indicates that you are instead looking for some sort of challenge match!
Why don't you look at your previous posts when you were saying I was a "hatchet man" trying to suck up to Master Wong and tell me who attacked who's character first. And why would I want to go all the way up to Seattle just to confirm that you are some kind of non-classical kung fu expert? Anyone reading that would say, "hmm, sounds like some kind of challenge to me."

Yes. I still maintain that. Your excess "why don't people listen to me" with such an anger in your voice!
O.K., you're the one using multiple exclamation points in all of your posts. Where does it seem like there's anger in my voice? I guess one could say I'm guilty of zealously trying to promote the book (which you can download to your computer along with the Kindle Reader program or read on any computer in the Kindle Cloud: http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I), but where have I seemed really angry?

And EVERYWHERE? I don't see it on billboards in downtown Seattle by the Space Needle, on TV during the Superbowl commercial and in every article and advertisement in magazines. Other than a mention here and there in a website about Bruce or JKD, I don't see it all that much. There are literally hundreds of martial arts website out there of different schools, martial arts associations, philosophies,etc. If I said that of that #, if it got 3% of the total mention of the content of the collective large # of those websites,movies, books,etc. that would be very generous indeed.

Jesse never mentioned it on his own volition and free will(did comment on it very briefly once when asked) and neither did Taky Kimura when I met him. And neither did Leroy Garcia when I met him either. For that matter, Linda didn't bring it up when I met her and bla, bla, bla...

In case you didn't notice this thread is SPECIFICALLY about the Bruce Lee / Wong Jack Man fight. Just because this subject isn't mentioned everywhere, on posters and billboards, on TV etc., doesn't mean that it's not mentioned in books, magazines, and websites that are relevant to this particular subject. That's like saying, "Why do people care about whether Shaolin Do is for real at all? Nobody mentions it on cable!"

Just because none of the JKD people mentioned it to you doesn't mean it's not relevant to some people. It's relevant to certain students of Wong Jack Man's because we care about how he is portrayed in the media. He's been regarded negatively by a great many people. He's mentioned in a negative light in Teri Tom's books, in Linda Lee's biography, in countless articles featuring guys like Richard Bustillo and Leo Fong, on the Bruce Lee Foundation's website, etc., etc., etc. The whole conflict between them was featured and expanded on in the movie, "Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story," a 14 million dollar movie put out by Universal Pictures (I guess that's not big enough for you.). God, I feel like I'm talking to a wall! Once again, if you're not interested in this particular subject, then just don't comment on it.

Double bind and contradictory statement. You can't have it both ways. By saying "I already did"(went back to practicing) you are implying it doesn't take as high a priority.

OOOh Kaay. Dude, there's a time for practicing and a time for typing posts on the KF Magazine forum. Pick one.

It's done! The fight took place IN 1964!!! I was MINUS three years old then!!

Whoa, calm down there sparky! Who's the one who sounds angry and frustrated again?

Lucas

02-05-2013, 06:08 PM

man bawang and i couldnt even derail this sheet for a second!

GeneChing

02-05-2013, 06:17 PM

Maybe in 47 years, we'll be debating whether you or bawang won the fight. :p

JamesC

02-05-2013, 06:24 PM

Deep belly laughs gene:D

hskwarrior

02-05-2013, 06:59 PM

O.K., you're the one using multiple exclamation points in all of your posts. Where does it seem like there's anger in my voice?

when did the forum have the capability to communicate using people's voices:confused::confused::confused:

Kellen Bassette

02-05-2013, 07:37 PM

when did the forum have the capability to communicate using people's voices:confused::confused::confused:

Bust out your big type and show them how it's done!

Syn7

02-06-2013, 02:22 PM

Yall crazy. Every single one of you!

Arguing over a fight from 50 years ago that has no real significance in itself. Caaaarrrrraaaaaaazzzzzaaaaaayyyyyy!!!!!!!!

LaterthanNever

02-06-2013, 02:48 PM

Some math here..next year will mark the 50th anniversary of the match. Thats' 5-0 with a five.

"Why don't you look at your previous posts when you were saying I was a "hatchet man" trying to suck up to Master Wong and tell me who attacked who's character first. "

My hatchet man was regarding Bruce, Linda and anyone who made a claim counter to what the book states/you believe.

"And why would I want to go all the way up to Seattle just to confirm that you are some kind of non-classical kung fu expert? "

I never claimed to be an "expert". If you are going to say "I bet you learned your forms from youtube" then yeah..that's an attack. So I figured..well if he wants me to demonstrate some forms for him, provided he can get up this way, I'd be happy to show him. If you can't handle my reply, then don't make the comment!

Come to think of it..I could put some forms on youtube and link it here. Actually, that would be ironic, not to mention funny..maybe you could learn from me! lol

"but where have I seemed really angry?"

Not just angry, but fanatical and obsessive too! It's almost like watching a Shaw Bros movie(complete w/ bad dubbing and all) and the student who yells "I will avenge my masteerrrrr" as he coughs up blood.

What seems angry? Comments such as:

"I would contact her if that were possible. Do you have her number?"

(I can really see that happening..she picks up the phone and you begin chastising her..like the conversation would even go beyond the 30 second mark )

and

"That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers."(

(I can only speak for myself..am I a fan? Yes. A worshiper..definitely not)

and

"It's an issue because that's the story that's still being told online and in magazines. It's an issue because it's NOT true and yet, people want so badly to believe this myth."

and

"Why wouldn't I want to defend my former sifu? It reflects badly on me and everyone who ever learned from him if people believe these lies about him. Wouldn't you defend your sifu if someone said he was a dishonorable tool? Or did you learn your stuff from youtube videos?"

I mean really SilLum fighter..isn't an article in a mag, a lawsuit on top of that AND now a book sufficient?

and

“I was hoping to discuss the book with people on this thread but instead I get bogged down defending my posts from people like you. Why is it people can be Bruce Lee cheerleaders and dredge up everything about his life again and again and go on and on about how great he was and I can't say my piece on this without being called a hatchet man?”

calling people "Bruce lee cheerleaders" and "people like you",etc...these things seems defensive and unnecessary. And yes..angry.

and

"What I'm really trying to do here is clear up the lies surrounding this event. Call me what you will, but I'm merely acting as a truthsayer here. Based on the evidence, it can't be denied that:"

The fact that..(going from memory) Master William C.C. Chen was supposedly at the event and after his recollection of it , yet a third(or was it a fourth) different opinion(I believe it was he or another high profile instructor) said that it went on for even longer still(30 minutes?) means that with such a wide variances of how long it took, who was hurt, who was not,etc.etc. that I still hold the opinions presented with no greater degree of creedence than those in the Bruce camp. To be fair, it's only right. If the others on the WJM side all agreed in unison about these variables..well then that's s different story.

and lastly:

"I see, this is when all of the hardcore BL fanatics start challenging me to a fight. Why is it always the Bruce Lee fans who want to fight over this particular disagreement? I guess this forum has turned into a bulletin for challenge matches then. It's all so we can see who's style is more beast! "

Whose a hardcore BL "fanatic"? Not me. At no time did I ever challenge you to a fight.
And more overgeneralizing.."always fight"? I saw no evidence of anyone who is a fan or Bruce challenging you..certainly not me!

"In case you didn't notice this thread is SPECIFICALLY about the Bruce Lee / Wong Jack Man fight. Just because this subject isn't mentioned everywhere, on posters and billboards, on TV etc., doesn't mean that it's not mentioned in books, magazines, and websites that are relevant to this particular subject. That's like saying, "Why do people care about whether Shaolin Do is for real at all? Nobody mentions it on cable!"

Aren't you the one who says it mentioned everywhere?

"Just because none of the JKD people mentioned it to you doesn't mean it's not relevant to some people. "

Yippee! Congratulations on knowing your likes and dislikes for what is relevant. And the key is..yeah..it's relevant to "some" people! And yeah..I still stand by that statement, most people I've met even those who study traditional styles really don't care!

"It's relevant to certain students of Wong Jack Man's because we care about how he is portrayed in the media. He's been regarded negatively by a great many people. He's mentioned in a negative light in Teri Tom's books, in Linda Lee's biography, in countless articles featuring guys like Richard Bustillo and Leo Fong, on the Bruce Lee Foundation's website, etc., etc., etc. The whole conflict between them was featured and expanded on in the movie, "Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story," a 14 million dollar movie put out by Universal Pictures (I guess that's not big enough for you.). God, I feel like I'm talking to a wall! Once again, if you're not interested in this particular subject, then just don't comment on it."

Why did they fight then? If it was not because of the innacuracy of the statement that it was due to WJM teaching non chinese? After all, if you were his former student, you should have the direct line answer shouldn't you? That is what is far more interesting to me. There had to be some reason that both men agreed to touch hands,

"Whoa, calm down there sparky! Who's the one who sounds angry and frustrated again? "

Not angry. Emphasizing a word..it's almost a half a decade ago.
__________________

Syn7

02-06-2013, 02:50 PM

You really need to learn how to use the quote function. I don't even read your **** because I couldn't be bothered to read the opinion of anyone who can't figure out a simple quote function. You should work on that.

LaterthanNever

02-06-2013, 02:55 PM

that's a funny criticism from a forum member who is listed as "banned" under his screename. :rolleyes:

Syn7

02-06-2013, 03:14 PM

Yeah, cause clearly I can't post in these forums.

You're smert!

LaRoux

02-06-2013, 04:11 PM

I never claimed to be an "expert". If you are going to say "I bet you learned your forms from youtube" then yeah..that's an attack. So I figured..well if he wants me to demonstrate some forms for him, provided he can get up this way, I'd be happy to show him. _

There's thing called youtube. I think you understand about it, because you've been talking about it.

If you were serious about breaking out the deadly forms, you could have simply posted them on youtube.

Him showing up isn't going to somehow make your forms better.

LaterthanNever

02-07-2013, 03:32 PM

"There's thing called youtube. I think you understand about it, because you've been talking about it."

Nope. I live in the bottom of a mine shaft with no ties to outward civilization. For that matter what is a "tube"?(of any kind) :p

"If you were serious about breaking out the deadly forms, you could have simply posted them on youtube."

I could have but he could always turn around and say that it wasn't me and someone else. So I said "come up here"...though I pretty much knew he would not.

"Him showing up isn't going to somehow make your forms better. "

Whoever said that was my goal?

Syn7

02-07-2013, 05:35 PM

"If you were serious about breaking out the deadly forms, you could have simply posted them on youtube."

I could have but he could always turn around and say that it wasn't me and someone else. So I said "come up here"...though I pretty much knew he would not.

That's a huge copout. It doesn't take a genius to help authenticate ones own video. :rolleyes:

LaterthanNever

02-07-2013, 08:55 PM

Done..then it is solved. I will post some :)

Siu Lum Fighter

02-08-2013, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by LaterthanNever
Some math here..next year will mark the 50th anniversary of the match. Thats' 5-0 with a five.
With a 5 and a 0, wow, that's a long time. You know what else happened a long time ago? Huo Man Jia fought a Japanese judo master in 1910, 103 years ago. They made a movie about him and his exploits (Fearless). In this case we're talking about none other than the world famous Bruce Lee. Ya, this happened 50 years ago and guess what? Just like the events in Hou Man Jia's life, which was over twice as long ago, people are STILL talking about it. So what's your point?

My hatchet man was regarding Bruce, Linda and anyone who made a claim counter to what the book states/you believe.
Well, then you're a “hatchet man” for refuting me without having read the book.

Actually, that would be ironic, not to mention funny..maybe*you*could learn from*me! lol
Ya, that would be funny. If you ever make it down here to LA I could “show” you some of my Bak Siu Lum if you'd like. Wait, that sounds too much like a challenge. You can just see what it looks like on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bio8rXx5zA (nice production values Gene)

Not just angry, but fanatical and obsessive too! It's almost like watching a Shaw Bros movie(complete w/ bad dubbing and all) and the student who yells "I will avenge my masteerrrrr" as he coughs up blood.
In none of the comments you mentioned after that did I use all of the caps and exclamation points that you use. And in this one:

(I can really see that happening..she picks up the phone and you begin chastising her..like the conversation would even go beyond the 30 second mark)
You're just assuming that's what I would do!

I mean really SilLum fighter..isn't an article in a mag, a lawsuit on top of that AND now a book sufficient?
One little article from 1980 that hardly anyone seems to know about, a lawsuit that no one knows anything about (except former students of Wong's, Linda Lee, and the people at the now defunct Inside Kung Fu Magazine), and a book that isn't getting national press (now anyway). That's just not up to par with a motion picture, a series, all of the books, articles, websites, where it's displayed and mentioned how my teacher, Wong Jack Man, tried getting Bruce to close his school because he was teaching gwai lo. The answer to your question is no, those few things aren't sufficient. They're not sufficient because most people out there believe the myth that's been perpetuated all of these years.

calling people "Bruce lee cheerleaders" and "people like you",etc...these things seems defensive and unnecessary. And yes..angry.
Wow, if you think that's angry you should meet my wife.

The fact that..(going from memory) Master William C.C. Chen was supposedly at the event and after his recollection of it , yet a third(or was it a fourth) different opinion(I believe it was he or another high profile instructor) said that it went on for even longer still(30 minutes?) means that with such a wide variances of how long it took, who was hurt, who was not,etc.etc. that I still hold the opinions presented with no greater degree of creedence than those in the Bruce camp. To be fair, it's only right. If the others on the WJM side all agreed in unison about these variables..well then that's s different story.
It wasn't William C.C. Chen, it was another Tai Chi master by the name of William Chen (or Bill Chen). And no one said it lasted 30 minutes. The stories given by the two main witnesses who came with Wong Jack Man, Bill Chen and David Chin, are pretty much the same. These men were interviewed at different times, years apart, and their stories still seem to match up. In the Bruce Lee camp the stories are all over the place. Both Bruce and Linda gave different details on how the fight supposedly ended and Richard Bustilllo said in an article that Bruce told him he choked Wong Jack Man out with a neck choke (totally different from the “official” versions).

Yippee! Congratulations on knowing your likes and dislikes for what is relevant. And the key is..yeah..it's relevant to "some" people! And yeah..I still stand by that statement, most people I've met even those who study traditional styles really don't care!
Well, it's certainly relevant to practitioners of JKD Mr. student of Jesse Glover's.

Why*did*they fight then? If it was not because of the innacuracy of the statement that it was due to WJM teaching non chinese? After all, if you were his former student, you should have the direct line answer shouldn't you? That is what is far more interesting to me. There had to be some reason that both men agreed to touch hands,
All I can say is read the book. I think you meant, “If it was not because of the inaccuracy of the statement that it was due to BRUCE LEE teaching non-Chinese?” In case you didn't know, I am not Chinese. As I already stated earlier in this thread, during my time in Wong Jack Man's class I learned with people of more than one race, nationality, and gender. Suffice it to say, that was not the issue that brought on the fight. The myth that it was over race came years later after Bruce's death.

Not angry. Emphasizing a word..it's almost a half a decade ago.
You mean “half a century ago”. Once again, so what? This fight actually happened closer to 49 years ago. People are still talking about other significant events like the JFK assassination which happened 50 years ago, how Lincoln got shot which happened 159 years ago. These things seem to matter to conspiracy theorists and historians. This fight has historical significance to JKD practitioners, fans of Bruce Lee, and martial arts historians alike. If it doesn't matter to you then why are you even leaving comments on this thread?

Lucas

02-08-2013, 03:55 PM

you guys all heard when my wife said how i held bawang down and beat him until i made him relent and surrender to my manliness, right? its right there in the movie script! oh and how after that i did a backflip out the window and landed on my harley and peeled out all bad ass like down the street.

Raipizo

02-08-2013, 04:34 PM

Lucas

02-08-2013, 04:59 PM

LaterthanNever

02-08-2013, 05:37 PM

"With a 5 and a 0, wow, that's a long time. You know what else happened a long time ago? Huo Man Jia fought a Japanese judo master in 1910, 103 years ago. They made a movie about him and his exploits (Fearless). In this case we're talking about none other than the world famous Bruce Lee. Ya, this happened 50 years ago and guess what? Just like the events in Hou Man Jia's life, which was over twice as long ago, people are STILL talking about it. So what's your point?"

My point is..one can talk about lots of things and do it in the context of not really believing that making an issue out of one facet of it(Ie: that your master was portrayed in a bad light) that by doing so, it's going to cause some radical type of shift in the consciousness of everyone who has ever seen a BL movie, read a book of his, studies kung fu or any martial art for that matter, or studies Wing Chun, JKD or any other associated arts. It's akin to someone thinking that because there is a difference of opinion about the Shaolin temple burning down(some say it did not) and because there is discussion about it, that the people on the side of the "yes, it did in fact burn" are going to admit in unision "wow, we sure apologize for our ignorance" by stating our opinion to the contrary. And if people did believe (as a result of your protesting) that Master WJM was not as he was claimed to be, then would anything change on such a grand scale? Doubtful..people would still continue training in their style, politics in MA would still exist, and yes..even the truly delusional would still believe in Sin Kwang The and his claims that he's "Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do" or whatever. It just seems like the means do not justify the ends. Master WJM has done a commendable job in setting the record straight and for that I salute him.

"Well, then you're a “hatchet man” for refuting me without having read the book. "

I never said I was perfect ;)

"Ya, that would be funny. If you ever make it down here to LA I could “show” you some of my Bak Siu Lum if you'd like. Wait, that sounds too much like a challenge. You can just see what it looks like on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bio8rXx5zA (nice production values Gene)"

What an honor it is sir!! You mean "SilLumFighter" is none other than the famous Master Kwong Wing Lam all along?:eek:
If you are going to resort to tactics like saying I learn my moves from youtube, then why not post some North Shaolin sets of *YOU* doing the patterns?

"In none of the comments you mentioned after that did I use all of the caps and exclamation points that you use. "

No its' your choice of words, rather than the caps and exclamation marks that come across as intolerant

"You're just assuming that's what I would do!"

It's a legit assumption. Why would someone ask for her # unless they were planning on giving her a piece of their mind?(and the fact that you express your umbrage with her as a platform to the inquiry..even moreso)

That's just not up to par with a motion picture, a series, all of the books, articles, websites, where it's displayed and mentioned how my teacher, Wong Jack Man, tried getting Bruce to close his school because he was teaching gwai lo. The answer to your question is no, those few things aren't sufficient. They're not sufficient because most people out there believe the myth that's been perpetuated all of these years."

Well then why are you not contacting some of the motion picture people w/ a proposal or penning an article in one of the major mags then for everyone to see? If you've got the motivation to spar with me or anyone else who raises an eyebrow, then do something which would make more of an impact.

"Well, it's certainly relevant to practitioners of JKD Mr. student of Jesse Glover's."

None I've ever spoken to. Maybe so. But that's like saying it's relevant to myself and any other citizen of the USA that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America(when in fact he only reached the US Indies). Yeah..I remember learning that in school, but I don't give it a second thought really. It certainly doesn't affect how I go about living my day.

"All I can say is read the book. I think you meant, “If it was not because of the inaccuracy of the statement that it was due to BRUCE LEE teaching non-Chinese?” In case you didn't know, I am not Chinese. As I already stated earlier in this thread, during my time in Wong Jack Man's class I learned with people of more than one race, nationality, and gender. Suffice it to say, that was not the issue that brought on the fight. The myth that it was over race came years later after Bruce's death."

If the content of the book was a synopsis of the fight then it doesn't seem likely that an alternate theory of why BL and WJM fought would be mentioned. You mean to say in your time w/ Master WJM you never asked him what the real reason that they both touched hands was for?(if not for the more popular, yet as you claim innacurate version of how it happened)

pazman

02-08-2013, 05:57 PM

http://www.gospelflava.com/gallery2/d/4377-2/Don_t+make+that+face+no+more+Hurd.JPG

Haha, this thread is still going on.

Raipizo

02-08-2013, 06:42 PM

Ah but you see he has been my Wombat Kombat master for long time. I have learn his secrets. he tried to stop me from teaching wombat kombat to the people with the yellow hairs, because he hates them so much.

Ah yes but he has still not taught you yellow dragon stirs the water, you may stand a chance against him, but be careful. The last person who dared to challenge Bawang was a deadly chi sao master, needless to say Bawang defeated him and gave him 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

sanjuro_ronin

02-09-2013, 07:05 AM

Ah yes but he has still not taught you yellow dragon stirs the water, you may stand a chance against him, but be careful. The last person who dared to challenge Bawang was a deadly chi sao master, needless to say Bawang defeated him and gave him 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

That wasn't a wet noodle...

Drake

02-09-2013, 11:55 AM

That wasn't a wet noodle...

Half right. It WAS wet.

Fa Xing

02-09-2013, 05:24 PM

I see, this is when all of the hardcore BL fanatics start challenging me to a fight. Why is it always the Bruce Lee fans who want to fight over this particular disagreement? I guess this forum has turned into a bulletin for challenge matches then. It's all so we can see who's style is more beast!

Uhm...I was thinking it could be cool to talk about martial arts.

But we could fight if that's what you want :D:cool:!

And for the record, I'm a grad student, I don't have the luxury of being fanatical :rolleyes:

LaterthanNever

02-09-2013, 10:22 PM

Siu Lum Fighter,

If you'd be so kind, please create a bit of vacancy in your inbox. I'd like to send you a PM and it's crammed to capacity. Nothing vitriolic, hate filled and certainly not anything challenging. Thank you.

LTN

Lucas

02-11-2013, 11:26 AM

Half right. It WAS wet.

Well thats the last time I let YOU watch my challenge matches.

Siu Lum Fighter

02-11-2013, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by LaterthanNever
...Doubtful..people would still continue training in their style, politics in MA would still exist, and yes..even the truly delusional would still believe in Sin Kwang The and his claims that he's "Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do" or whatever. It just seems like the means do not justify the ends. Master WJM has done a commendable job in setting the record straight and for that I salute him.

WJM actually didn't really bother setting the record straight in his later years as a teacher. This always bothered certain students like myself because despite what you keep saying, this fight has been, and is still being debated on many online forums with people saying all manner of insulting things about him. It’s been mentioned in many magazine articles, and, once again, it’s been featured in a major motion picture. In the face of all of this WJM didn’t really do anything to defend his reputation despite all of the things that were being said and published about him throughout the years. So I’m glad to see that you’re actually commending him for "setting the record straight" (if you are indeed being sincere), but it’s all for naught, because he really didn't do anything to combat any of the disparaging things that were being said about him. Some Japanese press people came to his class one time wanting to interview him but he turned them away. He seemed satisfied teaching his small class throughout the years without the need to expand and create something bigger.

JKD, on the other hand, seemed to be this ever-growing, latest greatest style that people charged a fortune to learn. I'm not saying there aren't some good things about JKD but due to the exponential growth of schools teaching his style of fighting and his still ever-growing fan base, there's only been one story about it's inception that has ever been believed by the general public.

"Well, it's certainly relevant to practitioners of JKD Mr. student of Jesse Glover's."

None I've ever spoken to. Maybe so. But that's like saying it's relevant to myself and any other.. citizen of the USA that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America(when in fact he only reached the US Indies). Yeah..I remember learning that in school, but I don't give it a second thought really. It certainly doesn't affect how I go about living my day.

Despite none of the JKD people you talked to feeling it's relevant (didn't you say you didn't even bring it up?), it's as relevant to them as George Washington is to every U.S. Citizen. Just like there wouldn't be a United States without the founding fathers, there wouldn't even be a style known as Jeet Kune Do without this particular fight. Let me ask you something, if it didn't have such a huge effect on Bruce Lee then why is it almost always portrayed in every biopic of Bruce Lee? If it wasn't so important, why is it on so many people's websites, in so many movies, documentaries, shows, books, etc? If it's not relevant to JKD then why is it on all of these websites:
http://bruceleefoundation.com/index.cfm/page/Jun-Fan-Jeet-Kune-Do/pid/10606
http://www.thejkdbrotherhood.com/history-of-jkd/JKD-Brotherhood/JKD-Brotherhood/leo-fong.html
http://www.worldwidedojo.com/reality-based/articles-by-author/james-yimm-lee-the-oakland-jkd-years/
http://masterwongacademy.com/system/12-master-wong-system/44-jkd-history.html
http://www.everythingwingchun.com/bruce-lee-wing-chun-dvds-books-s/205.htm
http://www.network54.com/Forum/103552/thread/1306145078/last-1359008317/Wong+Jack+Man
http://jkdtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-2485.html
It's even on the wikipedia page about Bruce Lee:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Why don't you search terms like, “Bruce Lee / Wong Jack Man,” “Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do,” or just “Jeet Kune Do” on Google and tell me again how it's not relevant to JKD or any of it's practitioners.

And this debate doesn't affect how I go about living my day or whether I can still manage to get some practice in so I don't know where you're getting that I'm being all obsessive. Maybe I just type fast and since this subject interests me and I have a lot to say about it I guess it might look that way. It would seem it interests you as well considering the amount you've typed about it.

Siu Lum Fighter

02-11-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fa Xing
Uhm...I was thinking it could be cool to talk about martial arts.

But we could fight if that's what you want !

And for the record, I'm a grad student, I don't have the luxury of being fanatical
You'll have to excuse me. It's my knee jerk reaction to assume that people want to actually challenge me whenever I'm debating about this subject and they start asking about my physical location. In the past I've gotten private messages from people (on this forum actually) saying things like, "You keep asking for trouble, you will get it."

LaterthanNever

02-11-2013, 06:11 PM

"Despite none of the JKD people you talked to feeling it's relevant (didn't you say you didn't even bring it up?), "

That is correct. I did not bring it up. But when the typical "how did you get involved in MA?" came up, noone I've ever spoken to in the JKD community ever once said "It was beacuse Bruce took flak from Master WJM ..so..etc.etc"

Actually, you've admitted you are non-Chinese. Isn't that proof that the statement about his supposed intolerance of Bruce teaching non chinese is false?

Kellen Bassette

02-20-2013, 05:24 AM

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mma-cagewriter/movie-bruce-lee-most-legendary-fight-works-022135673--mma.html

And the debate rages on.....

GeneChing

02-20-2013, 11:45 AM

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mma-cagewriter/movie-bruce-lee-most-legendary-fight-works-022135673--mma.html

And the debate rages on..... Doug has this covered for us with a new thread in the media forum...bruce lee/wong jack man movie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1212838) :rolleyes:

Kellen Bassette

02-20-2013, 07:26 PM

Doug has this covered for us with a new thread in the media forum...bruce lee/wong jack man movie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1212838) :rolleyes:

I missed that, 1000 apologies. :D

Fidel

02-21-2013, 03:47 PM

I am amazed that people still talk about this fight. Who care. I realize that the fight was important to Bruce because it helped him focus on what he needed to work on, but, it was a long time ago.

Siu Lum Fighter

02-24-2013, 12:14 AM

bawang

02-25-2013, 09:50 PM

It's strange how people can be so involved with the history of whatever style they practice, be it Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, etc., but when it comes to the origin of JKD and Bruce Lee, fans will say of the fight with WJM, "It was a long time ago, who cares, and it's not important." That doesn't make sense at all.

it was very clear what happened. they had a sissy slap fight, nobody got seriously hurt.

if you have alzheimers and need reminders, i can come back and repeat this a every once in a while for you.

GeneChing

03-27-2013, 09:00 AM

Came up in today's newsfeed...:rolleyes:

A Bruce Lee Fight Without Cameras Changed Everything (http://news.yahoo.com/bruce-lee-fight-without-cameras-changed-everything-230600567.html)
By Laurie Jo Miller Farr | Yahoo! Contributor Network – 16 hrs ago

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/MWYi9qp.ch7ZRSbwFCLdaQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNTM7cT03OTt3PTQ3MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/associatedcontent/470_2603277.jpg
Statue of Bruce Lee in Hong Kong. (Photo courtesy of flickr.com/photos/imuttoo.)

As we approach the 50th anniversary of Bruce Lee's untimely death at age 32, there are Hollywood plans for another movie about him. Despite his short life, he is regarded as the greatest martial artist of modern times. "Birth of the Dragon" filmmakers say the movie will not be another biopic; they intend to focus on something that happened in Bruce Lee's teaching studio at 4157 Broadway in Oakland, California, before his rise to international stardom: a fight with Wong Jack Man on an autumn evening in 1964. According to the producers, Hollywood's screenplay will tell its own version of the story by injecting fantasy. The real reasons for the fight and the outcome of it have been debated for almost 60 years, but Bruce Lee is gone and Wong Jack Man is not talking. One thing is clear: This was the most significant fight of Bruce Lee's career.

Background From Rick L. Wing

As an early Bruce Lee fan, I wanted to find out more about that 1964 event. The following was related to me over noodles and rice in March by Rick L. Wing, the martial arts master to whom Wong Jack Man entrusted his San Francisco school upon his retirement in December 2005. Sifu Rick Wing attended more of Sifu Wong's classes than anyone, accumulating nearly 33 years as his student. As Wing explained, "As a grandmaster, Sifu Wong is enormously well respected, highly skilled -- an old school-style teacher whose doors were open to all that sought his instruction. As a man, I describe him as extremely soft-spoken, kind, modest, fair, and very private."

When I asked about this match with Bruce Lee, Wing said, "Sifu Wong will not talk about it." Whatever he has had to share about the fight is contained within the e-book pages of "Showdown in Oakland: The Story Behind the Wong Jack Man - Bruce Lee Fight" by Wing.

A Bruce Lee Challenge

In 1964 at Jackson Street's Sun Sing Theatre in San Francisco's Chinatown, the movie "The Amorous Lotus Pan," starring Diana Chang, played to a packed house, as the 28-year-old Hong Kong starlet was to perform onstage. Her onstage cha-cha dance partner was a former Hong Kong amateur dancing champion named Bruce Lee. The audience was also treated to a kung fu demonstration including one of Bruce's signature moves, his powerfully focused one-inch punch, forceful enough to send an audience volunteer reeling backwards. On this occasion, Bruce's first attempt was unsuccessful. In response to the audience's reaction, he issued a challenge for anyone to come to his Oakland martial arts studio and best him. That remark set tongues wagging and launched the events that followed.

A Wong Jack Man Acceptance

Eleven gathered to watch Bruce and Wong Jack Man, a martial arts expert one year his junior, who had accepted the challenge at the prompting of others. These martial arts practitioners, plus Bruce's 19-year-old wife, Linda (Emery) Lee, were eager to witness a private demonstration of skill. Why not? These two guys were young, extremely fit, and in the mood to settle the score on a dare. Bruce was an Oakland-based martial arts instructor and a father-to-be just shy of 24. Wong Jack Man had arrived in 1963 from Hong Kong to teach Northern Shaolin Style from his studio at 880 Pacific Ave., his reputation preceding him. There were no political overtones, no gangs, no love interests, no ultimatums involved, despite later reports claiming otherwise. However, there may very well have been a great deal more bravado on display that evening than was intended or called for.

Jeet Kune Do Is Born

On the morning following the fight, Wong Jack Man reported for work at the Jackson Cafe, as usual. Bruce and his wife had gone home with their older friend and partner, Jimmy Y. Lee, whose house in Oakland was where they were living at the time. Everything had changed for Bruce. The Bruce Lee Foundation indicates that in the immediate aftermath of the fight, Bruce revised his methods and philosophy, creating the personal brand he called Jeet Kune Do, meaning "Way of the Intercepting Fist." Jimmy's son, Greglon Lee, writes that Bruce began "to think more analytically about how to improve his own fighting skills, especially his footwork, his timing, and his ability to bridge the gap with his opponent." Linda concurs, writing in her 1975 book, "The Wong Jack Man fight also caused Bruce to intensify his training methods. From that date, he began to seek out more and more sophisticated and exhaustive training methods."

Immediate Aftermath

Readers may appreciate knowing that an agreement of confidentiality between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man transpired at the conclusion of their private fight. However, one month after the fight, there was coverage in The Chinese Pacific Weekly picked up from a Hong Kong newspaper. Lee responded in his own defense three weeks later. On January 7, 1965, another report of the fight appeared, then another. Wong responded in his defense on January 28, 1965, offering a public second match with Bruce to which there was no reply. Bruce and Linda's baby boy arrived four days later. Lee was soon to be further distracted by action adventure on the small screen, then the big screen. Meantime, Wong closed the book for good. For Bruce, great fame, reputation, and success followed shortly.

A Conclusion

In the end, sadly, Bruce Lee died young. Like those of others with outstanding talent and charisma who have met an early demise, stories about his life and death are passed from one to another, taking on lives of their own. It is not unlike what happens in a child's game of Telephone, also called Chinese Whispers. As Wing told me, "You be the judge."

David Jamieson

03-27-2013, 09:48 AM

The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long.

that pretty much sums up Bruce Lee.

In the end, Robbie Burns, the great Scottish poet has more statues of him around the world than any other individual.

This is probably due to the great egalitarian nature of the man and of Scots in general.

Siu Lum Fighter

05-24-2013, 12:12 AM

Just thought I'd mention one more revelatory thing. The ornate scroll Linda describes was a letter written by Sifu Bing Chan of the Lup Mo Kwoon in San Francisco. Bing Chan, David Chin, and a man named Ronald Woo, who was a witness to Lee's open challenge at Sun Sing Theatre, wrote the letter at The Jackson Cafe at 640 Jackson Street in SF. Wong Jack Man worked there and he signed the letter after looking it over. The letter did not mention anything about Lee's right to teach non-Chinese. Bing Chan himself had white students. Other sifus in Chinatown had non-Chinese students. The teaching of non-Chinese was a non-issue. There's evidence and testimony to corroborate this. In the letter they were only inquiring if Lee was open to their suggestion of having a match.

hskwarrior

05-24-2013, 01:57 AM

Sifu Bing Chan of the Lup Mo Kwoon in San Francisco

that's one of my sigung's right there

Miqi

05-24-2013, 05:42 AM

it was very clear what happened. they had a sissy slap fight, nobody got seriously hurt.

if you have alzheimers and need reminders, i can come back and repeat this a every once in a while for you.

Was it even that good? I imagined it like, one would be pretending to be held back by his friends - "hold me back", while the other stormed off in the opposite direction, shouting "You're not even worth it!".

Zhao Daoxin used to tell a cautionary story of how once, when he was walking past a bar in China, a very drunken western sailor fell out of the door, took a disliking to him and took a swing at him. Zhao - who was China's western boxing champion - knocked the defenceless buffoon out with a punch. Two years later when Zhao visited the ohter side of China, when the locals heard his name they were all like "You are the hero who defeated the West's top boxing champion in the fight of the century!"

bawang

05-24-2013, 08:41 AM

Was it even that good? I imagined it like, one would be pretending to be held back by his friends - "hold me back", while the other stormed off in the opposite direction, shouting "You're not even worth it!".

bruce lee was on steroids and couldnt even beat up a chinatown illegal immigrant waiter. LOL

Lucas

05-24-2013, 08:46 AM

bruce lee was on steroids and couldnt even beat up a chinatown illegal immigrant waiter. LOL

well when you put it like that ... lol

MightyB

05-24-2013, 08:55 AM

bruce lee was on steroids and couldnt even beat up a chinatown illegal immigrant waiter. LOL

His build (or chin neck area) didn't suggest steroids.

We'll never know much about the fight, but it did influence martial arts in a big way. I guess one way a person could gauge BL's skill is to judge the skill of his students.

Just saying.

bawang

05-24-2013, 09:01 AM

if bruce lee had legitimate legacy i would at least support him. but he married a hillbilly who only milks him for money so she doesnt have to work.

basically he trained wing chun, got beat up and said kung fu doesnt work. i cant relate to that.

MightyB

05-24-2013, 09:02 AM

look up "steroid jaw" images. I've always suspected Tito Ortiz of using. His jaw seems to change proportion throughout his career.

MightyB

05-24-2013, 09:05 AM

basically he trained wing chun, got beat up and said kung fu doesnt work. i cant relate to that.

he said classical martial arts as they are traditionally trained wouldn't work. Pretty much sums up the thought of anyone who's ever fought competitively.

bawang

05-24-2013, 09:08 AM

look up "steroid jaw" images. I've always suspected Tito Ortiz of using. His jaw seems to change proportion throughout his career.

bruce lee gained 25 lb of mucles and lost them over and over. dude is cantonese and had a full beard. LOL

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 10:44 AM

dude is cantonese and had a full beard. LOL

The beard is not a sign of steroids, it is a sign of manliness. All true warriors can grow a fearsome beard. Your ethnicity doesn't matter. If you are a man of valor the beard will grow, regardless of your genes.

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 10:45 AM

basically he trained wing chun, got beat up and said kung fu doesnt work. i cant relate to that.

I feel like your taking some liberties with your retelling.... :rolleyes:

Lucas

05-24-2013, 10:49 AM

i can grow a beard in 3 days. cuz im bad the fukc ass.

http://www.paintingschinese.com/chinese-paintings-picture/chinese-brush-paintings/1/br-0335b.jpg

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 10:54 AM

i can grow a beard in 3 days. cuz im bad the fukc ass.

This is the secret to the real Gong Fu.

Lucas

05-24-2013, 11:10 AM

in times of extreme danger i can grow a beard instantly to protect my jaw from incomming strikes and wenches throwing wrenches.

MightyB

05-24-2013, 12:28 PM

in times of extreme danger i can grow a beard instantly to protect my jaw from incomming strikes and wenches throwing wrenches.

I do the exact same thing with my pubes.

Lucas

05-24-2013, 12:32 PM

I do the exact same thing with my pubes.

dude thats badass you have to teach me that.

bawang

05-24-2013, 03:30 PM

The beard is not a sign of steroids, it is a sign of manliness. All true warriors can grow a fearsome beard. Your ethnicity doesn't matter. If you are a man of valor the beard will grow, regardless of your genes.

my beard makes me look like mongolian rapist.

Lucas

05-24-2013, 03:34 PM

my beard makes me look like mongolian rapist.

you know what they say if it looks like a duck...

bawang

05-24-2013, 03:44 PM

you know what they say if it looks like a duck...

i dont understand.

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 05:24 PM

my beard makes me look like mongolian rapist.

You will invoke the spirit of the mighty Chingis Khan. Peace be unto him.

Kymus

05-24-2013, 05:54 PM

You will invoke the spirit of the mighty Chingis Khan. Peace be unto him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmFMOS8Qtg

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 06:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmFMOS8Qtg

I normally don't like bad music...but I'll make an exception.

bawang

05-24-2013, 06:14 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-yafzptuQ

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 06:20 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-yafzptuQ

Throat singing...sweet...

hskwarrior

05-24-2013, 06:28 PM

Throat singing...sweet...

I like your Throat Singing when its deep. :)

Kellen Bassette

05-24-2013, 06:37 PM

I like your Throat Singing when its deep. :)

Hard to do in falsetto....

MysticNinjaJay

10-03-2013, 08:16 AM

I just recently read this entire thread. Wow. The debate between Siu Lum Fighter and other posters was intense. As a Bruce Lee fan I have always been intrigued by stories about his life especially the fight with Wong Jack Man. This fight has been credited as the inspiration for Bruce's development of Jeet Kune Do and the circumstances around it have taken on a mythic quality.

There's clearly a lot of controversy surrounding the result of the fight and the motivation for the fight. Siu Lum Fighter argued very passionately that his Sifu has been slandered as he neither lost the fight nor did he fight because he wanted to shut down Bruce Lee's school to prevent him from teaching non-Chinese. Most people reading this thread have no doubt watched the dramatization of the fight in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story where Bruce Lee takes on a representative of San Francisco's Kung Fu community who insisted that Bruce Lee stop teaching the "Gwai Lo" the secrets of Chinese Martial Arts. Bruce is represented as valiantly defending his right to teach his students and winning an epic underground challenge match.

I can understand Siu Lum Fighter and other students of Wong Jack Man being offended if there are any inaccuracies in the story especially the accusations of racism against Wong Jack Man. I'm willing to give Wong Jack Man the benefit of the doubt in regards to allegations of racism if there really is verifiable evidence that he has taught non-Chinese and no evidence that he is a racist as has been insisted. I'm not so ready to believe that Bruce Lee or his wife are outright lying about the reason why the fight took place.

As for the outcome of the fight, because it was held in secret and wasn't recorded unfortunately we are never going to have proof one way or the other for what happened. There are conflicting reports as to who won. I read an interview by Michael Dorgan titled "Bruce Lee's Toughest Fight" which contains details of both Bruce's and Wong's recollection of the fight. After looking at both stories I have to say that Bruce's story is a lot more believable than the one Wong Jack Man told.

According to Bruce Lee the fight was short. Bruce overwhelmed Wong who started to run away and he was pounded in to a state of demoralization at which point he verbally submitted at the behest of Bruce. But according to Wong and his supporters the fight lasted 20-25 minutes and was a draw. I find Bruce's account more believable because of the description of the fight. I can see a Traditional Martial Artist with limited cardio training becoming winded after a few minutes as well as bruising their hands striking the back of the head with Wing Chun style punches. I can understand Bruce's disappointment with his performance if this happened. On the other hand a 20 minute fight between Traditional Martial Artists with no breaks in between is far too long to be a likely outcome. The claims that Wong held back and refused to use kicks because he was afraid of killing Bruce are also implausible and indicate that either the storyteller or the fighter in question have an unrealistic perception of fighting.

In the end we will never truly know what happened. If anything should be taken from this incident it should be that if you want recognition for your accomplishments you should keep a record of them (e.g. video) that everyone can look at.

Snipsky

10-03-2013, 09:09 AM

In the end we will never truly know what happened. If anything should be taken from this incident it should be that if you want recognition for your accomplishments you should keep a record of them (e.g. video) that everyone can look at.

no one trusts or believes anything or anyone with a name like mysticninja. that name alone says you're whack.

lkfmdc

10-03-2013, 09:13 AM

must... not ... post.... argh ..... in ..... a ...... bruce EEEEEKK! lee ...... thread.....

no, just won't do it.....

bawang

10-03-2013, 11:39 AM

how do I bruce lee?

Scott R. Brown

10-03-2013, 12:17 PM

how do I bruce lee?

With your eyes closed and your left hand on your junk while playing The Game of Death backwards and singing, "God Save the Queens!"

David Jamieson

10-03-2013, 12:32 PM

With your eyes closed and your left hand on your junk while playing The Game of Death backwards and singing, "God Save the Queens!"

...also, smoke weed erry day, stimulate muscle contraction with electricity and try to die young from a brain aneurism.

Syn7

10-03-2013, 03:17 PM

...also, smoke weed erry day, stimulate muscle contraction with electricity and try to die young from a brain aneurism.

Sweet. I'm already 2/3 there! Just gotta get the last two on DJ's list.

jimbob

10-04-2013, 05:03 AM

The claims that Wong held back and refused to use kicks because he was afraid of killing Bruce are also implausible and indicate that either the storyteller or the fighter in question have an unrealistic perception of fighting.

.

No disrespect intended to you or to Wong Jack Man, but until relatively recently, the vast majority of people had an unrealistic perception of fighting.

Scott R. Brown

10-04-2013, 09:13 AM

Sweet. I'm already 2/3 there! Just gotta get the last two on DJ's list.

Ehhhm....a brain aneurysm is not all its cracked up to be.:(

Syn7

10-04-2013, 09:30 AM

Ehhhm....a brain aneurysm is not all its cracked up to be.:(

Don't knock it till you try it :p Who knows!

Actually I suppose I can add the "stimulate muscle contraction with electricity" to my list. It's just never on purpose. :D Unless you count the times we played with tasers in my youth.

Scott R. Brown

10-04-2013, 12:15 PM

Actually I suppose I can add the "stimulate muscle contraction with electricity" to my list.

That can be good or bad depending upon what you decide to hook it up too!:eek:

Syn7

10-04-2013, 12:39 PM

That can be good or bad depending upon what you decide to hook it up too!:eek:

Well, I know what I'm doing, so I wouldn't work on anything too dangerous. Sometimes when adjusting sub stations we had to do it live. That was pretty scary. You can't just cut power to a whole tower for lil projects. But that's only working around it. If you go anywhere near the buses, that **** needs to be off. Period. Usually it's just getting hit with 120 when troubleshooting live. Not the smartest thing, but a huge time saver. Considering the little risk, it's worth it. Goes against regs though.

One time a guy on our crew dropped a panel cover onto the buses when closing up the top. Man what a mess. Needless to say, the cover didn't survive!

As far as to what you were alluding too, I'll leave that to the ******* types.

Scott R. Brown

10-05-2013, 07:50 AM

Well, I know what I'm doing, so I wouldn't work on anything too dangerous. Sometimes when adjusting sub stations we had to do it live. That was pretty scary. You can't just cut power to a whole tower for lil projects. But that's only working around it.....

I don't think you are supposed to use that much power!:eek:

gunbeatskroty

10-12-2013, 07:15 PM

I think Bruce Lee's wife is full of crap.

Start with the BS about how the Chinese didn't want to teach White people the magical powers of Kung-Fu. UFC 1 in 1993 clearly showed how magically crappy Kung-Fu can be in a real fight. Remember, UFC 1-4 allowed ALL pressure points attack, strikes to the eyes, nutsacks, throat, spine, back of the head, etc. Biting and eye gouging didn't disqualify, only penalized with $1,000 fine per incident. Fighters were paid $2,000 per fight I think (more if they win). Winner of the whole tournament gets $60,000 (which was a lot in 1993)....so you can bite & eye gouge to win it all and still come out ahead after being fined for 3 fights, max.

Anyway, Chinese were considered lower class Coolies back then. Any kind of mingling with White people was a step up. Jack Man Wong was an FOB kid and a nobody. He wasn't even a fighter with any kind of record. His real job was a waiter at a coffee shop. JMW even said he had White students. He was dying for any kind of students to teach his passion of Kung-Fu to in his spare time and make some extra money.

JMW said he was answering a flyer that Bruce Lee hung all over the place challenging Martial Artists to a fight to see who's better. Bruce Lee was a street punk. But it's not that big a deal as Asians have always pitted our brand of Martial Arts vs. other Asians and their MA's. Whether in the streets, in the dojos, or in movies..where it's mostly about 1 school fighting another and the winner gets the girl. This respect all types of Martial Arts and crap, is what White people made up and sold in McDojo's all across America to make money.

This BS about how JMW fought Lee to prevent him from teaching Whites is absurd. And nobody knows who won. But JMW said that he beat Bruce Lee and to settle it, he placed an ad in the Chinese newspaper challenging Bruce to a fight with a full audience. Bruce Lee dodged, which was something he never did. Bruce was always looking for fights to show his superiority. After this fight with JMW was when Bruce started cross-training Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai, etc. as he obviously saw how crappy his Wing Chun was....and JKD was born (or Jun Fan whatever).

Based on the above and common sense, I doubt that I'd want to believe what Bruce Lee's wife says as truth on this subject. Bruce Lee is certainly a great Martial Artist, just not a proven fighter. Especially when his people are desperate enough to list one of his fights being, vs. an "unruly stagehand", haha.

Jack Man Wong probably won't talk about it because it would just harm him. Bruce Lee is a freakin' world icon. Talking bad about him would just stir up hornets nests and attract trouble from all over. No one wants to hear anything bad about Bruce Lee. He's an awesome Martial Artist, no doubt....especially after he started cross training....still, not a notable fighter.

MysticNinjaJay

10-13-2013, 05:16 PM

No disrespect intended to you or to Wong Jack Man, but until relatively recently, the vast majority of people had an unrealistic perception of fighting.

People who don't fight have an unrealistic perception of fighting. Boxers knew full well that their punches could knock people out and do damage. Street fighters knew that a variety of techniques worked in a fight. Wong Jack Man showed his ignorance with his recollection of the fight. He did not possess "deadly kicks" and it's very unlikely that he fought someone in an NHB challenge match for 20-25 minutes.

Bruce Lee on the other hand seemed to have learned that the Wing Chun he had studied for years to improve his fighting skills was not as effective as he expected it to be and that he needed to cross-train in a variety of useful techniques and work on his cardio to reach a higher level of Martial Arts skill.

Yes, we know a lot more about what works in a real fight from the sport of MMA where winning and losing created a series of trial and error which resulted in improved fighters that became today's Mixed Martial Artists. There was a lot of ignorance about fighting back then in the Traditional Martial Arts community because a lot of Martial Artists based their training on ancient theories of combat rather than real life experience. Mysticism and secrecy stunted the growth of Martial Arts. We don't know what happened in this fight but we can judge the accounts of the fight to see which one is more credible.

Bruce's account seems a lot more likely.

I think Bruce Lee's wife is full of crap.

I'm not familiar with the culture of the time so I can't be certain that Linda Lee's claim about Kung Fu masters not wanting to teach Chinese is accurate but I know this much:

1. There was a lot of racism during this time period and ethnic minorities like the Chinese in America often kept to themselves.

2. There was a lot of secrecy and mysticism surrounding Chinese Martial Arts which in part led to its popularity when it was introduced in Western media.

I would not be surprised if the local Kung Fu masters in Bruce's area wanted to keep their art practiced amongst their own people and frowned upon Bruce's open door, teach anyone who wants to learn policy. Even today many Martial Arts instructors believe in being responsible about who gets taught in their schools because fighting skills can be easily abused.

Now whether Bruce Lee was a noble Egalitarian Martial Arts master or an arrogant young punk trying to make a name for himself by challenging fellow Martial Artists is something that I'd like Martial Arts historians to address. If this attitude was common among Chinese Martial Artists to keep the art exclusive to Chinese practitioners surely there would be some evidence of this for historians to present.

Not only have I heard that the Kung Fu masters of San Franciso's Chinatown didn't want Bruce Lee teaching non-Chinese but they are claiming in Bruce Lee documentaries that back in Hong Kong when Bruce was a boy fellow students didn't want Yip Man teaching Bruce Lee when they found out he wasn't pure Chinese himself!

If Linda made the whole thing up or Bruce lied to her to cover up the real reason for the fight I think this would be easy to debunk. As far as Wong Jack Man is concerned maybe it's about time for him to come forward while he's still alive and set the record straight about the fight if he values his reputation. This is the internet age. It would be very easy to get on Youtube and give a short interview about Bruce Lee and the fight.

gunbeatskroty

10-13-2013, 10:21 PM

If Linda made the whole thing up or Bruce lied to her to cover up the real reason for the fight I think this would be easy to debunk. As far as Wong Jack Man is concerned maybe it's about time for him to come forward while he's still alive and set the record straight about the fight if he values his reputation. This is the internet age. It would be very easy to get on Youtube and give a short interview about Bruce Lee and the fight.

WJM claimed that he beat Bruce. It's a lose-lose situation for him to talk about it at all as Bruce Lee is an IMMORTALIZED LEGEND, worldwide. If he sticks to his original story of how he beat Bruce in 25 minutes or so, yet resisted from using his "devastating kicks" garbage, people would laugh. Most people don't believe his story already. I'm kind of on the fence, except the stupid part about his "devastating kicks". Now if he changes the story to Bruce beating him, then he's a liar.

I spar sometimes with these 3 Black guys, Boxers that can beat me in Boxing only....none of them train kicks nor MA's (and they're scared to spar me with kicks), but they won't hear anything against Bruce Lee. They just go by all the movies and the filmed demo that Bruce did. And these guys are legit Boxers, w/one winning Golden Gloves once so they know what fighting is about. Yet Bruce Lee, with no credible fight record, etc. w/his biggest known fight being against Wong Jack Man, a Kung-Fu nobody, FOB from China.....and some fight vs. "an unruly stagehand".....these guys would argue against me tooth and nail for hours about how great Bruce Lee was...it's freakin' astounding.

MysticNinjaJay

10-14-2013, 08:19 AM

Since both fighters give very different accounts of who won the fight it's clear that someone is lying. I suppose that after all the years that passed Wong Jack Man has made peace with the incident since he hasn't spoke about it publicly in a long time but when Michael Dorgan wrote his article for the magazine Official Karate in 1980 Wong Jack Man seemed to have a lot to say about the fight.

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

The article makes a lot of interesting claims, among them that Bruce fought dirty, threatened to kill Wong Jack man and that Wong contemplated killing him if he got seriously injured in the fight. Wong Jack Man is certainly at a disadvantage because it's hard to fight a legend, especially when you don't have concrete proof that debunks the myth. Again I just don't believe Wong Jack Man's side of the story based on the implausibility of the account itself. They could both be lying and maybe Bruce and Linda also lied about him fighting for the right to teach non-Chinese.

Regardless of what happened if it got Bruce on the course to the success he had I'm greatful because he was an excellent representative of the Martial Arts and perhaps the most influential of all time.

gunbeatskroty

10-14-2013, 09:32 AM

Regardless of what happened if it got Bruce on the course to the success he had I'm greatful because he was an excellent representative of the Martial Arts and perhaps the most influential of all time.

I partly agree with this.

Personally, I think that it was Hollywood and fame that really cleaned up Bruce Lee's image to promote him into this "excellent representative of the Martial Arts". But in reality, he was more like the BADGUY from the Karate Kid movies. Always looking for fights to prove how tough he is. Asians loves to pit their MA vs. other Asians' MA's. When it was too far away, they'd fight within their own local district for supremacy. None of this "respect for all MA's" mumbo jumbo. Bruce Lee was this exact guy. He was a nobody, looked down upon by segregated America as nothing more than a coolie. He went around looking to make a name for himself as a badass. I bet he went around challenging local Kung-Fu schools and their so-called masters, to fights and such. I bet that this was what ruffled feathers and not the BS about teaching super Kung-Fu powers to Whiteys. A lot of Kung-Fu people are just mouth and Bruce Lee made them back it up. Just like how the Gracies called out all MA styles with their Gracie Challenge and mopped the floor with most. And then the UFC made it clear for all to see.

bawang

10-14-2013, 11:06 AM

bruce lee wanted Asian men to be seen as strong, but today the tightey whitey just cackles when they hear his high pitched scream.

MysticNinjaJay

10-14-2013, 11:42 AM

Personally, I think that it was Hollywood and fame that really cleaned up Bruce Lee's image to promote him into this "excellent representative of the Martial Arts". But in reality, he was more like the BADGUY from the Karate Kid movies. Always looking for fights to prove how tough he is.

I think there is a lot more to him than that. After listening to his interviews I firmly believe that Bruce Lee wanted to represent Martial Arts in the way that he believed it should be presented. In the screen test for The Green Hornet Bruce even says "it's bad to say the best" when it came to comparing styles. He reached a point where he didn't believe in styles anymore and recognized that it was the person behind the style that mattered. Of course you need to train in useful techniques but you don't limit yourself. If a technique is useful it doesn't matter where it came from and who teaches it it's worth learning.

At one point Bruce Lee was an arrogant young punk who loved fighting to prove how tough he was which is what got him in trouble and prompted his father to send him to America in the first place. But over time he matured and became Bruce Lee the movie star who made Martial Arts popular world wide and introduced his personal philosophy on Martial Arts through his movies.

Hollywood didn't make this image. Bruce Lee made it for himself. He also presented Chinese with a heroic icon that defied the racist stereotypes against Chinese and other Asians at the time. I have no problem with Bruce Lee seeking challenges for himself and I would not liken him to a Kobra Kai bully. If he was challenging fellow Martial Artists to test himself that's fine. That's different from picking on people just to beat on them and show your superiority. Now as far as fighting for the right to teach students of any race maybe that is myth. Again I would like to hear the opinion of some experts on whether that story has any credibility. But Bruce Lee has contributed enough positive influences for me to approve of him as a person overall.

Kellen Bassette

10-14-2013, 01:14 PM

bruce lee wanted Asian men to be seen as strong, but today the tightey whitey just cackles when they hear his high pitched scream.

I'm pretty sure Tightey Wightey loves Bruce Lee....

gunbeatskroty

10-14-2013, 09:46 PM

At one point Bruce Lee was an arrogant young punk who loved fighting to prove how tough he was . But over time he matured and became Bruce Lee the movie star who made Martial Arts popular world wide and introduced his personal philosophy on Martial Arts through his movies.

These are excellent points. Maybe he significantly matured after that fight with Jack Man Wong.

Now as far as fighting for the right to teach students of any race maybe that is myth. Again I would like to hear the opinion of some experts on whether that story has any credibility.

Jack Man Wong said that he had White students at that time, so he certainly wasn't against it. If anything, it would be the way to quick success for a Chinese to teach Whites, as Martial Arts was very scarce and mysterious back then. There was Karate, brought back from Japan after WWII, but Kung-Fu was even more rare. From the social standpoint of the Chinese back then, any mingling with Whites was a step up.

[QUOTE] But Bruce Lee has contributed enough positive influences for me to approve of him as a person overall.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bruce Lee. But now that you've mentioned it, I actually do like the Kobra Kai Bruce Lee who went around challenging people to back up their mouth with their fists. I train MA to fight and really not into the Asian cultural aspect, etc. Like many of the guys in my BJJ class gets really into it and they even learn Portugese to compliment their BJJ experience. I just want to be a better fighter. Like in a Boxing gym in the 'hood, where you earn your respect by knocking people out.

Kevin73

10-16-2013, 04:26 PM

lkfmdc

10-18-2013, 08:55 AM

the only known footage of Bruce Lee actually sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbADUyBoBvA

Kellen Bassette

10-18-2013, 09:09 AM

the only known footage of Bruce Lee actually sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbADUyBoBvA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_iwOyXrM8

lkfmdc

10-18-2013, 09:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_iwOyXrM8

I see you, and I raise you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVheNCVfUfE

Kellen Bassette

10-18-2013, 09:16 AM

I see you, and I raise you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVheNCVfUfE

I'm out bro, I can't deal with that one...I remember first time I saw that years ago, I've been scarred since...Can't do that clip....

lkfmdc

10-18-2013, 09:20 AM

I'm out bro, I can't deal with that one...I remember first time I saw that years ago, I've been scarred since...Can't do that clip....

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4766333896778&l=6934560774349853121

LaRoux

10-18-2013, 09:38 AM

Again, if he had beat WJM so easily, then WHY would Bruce Lee "fighter extraordinaire" be so winded and disappointed with him that he changed his ENTIRE approach to fighting and conditioning? Seems there was more to it than that.

Of course there was more to it than that. it was the first time he had fought for real trying to use wing chun. After seeing how ineffective it was, he started to re-examine his approach to everything.

Pete

10-18-2013, 09:56 AM

UFC 1 in 1993 clearly showed how magically crappy Kung-Fu can be in a real fight.

ouch that hurt :(

lkfmdc

10-19-2013, 07:47 AM

Jimbo

10-19-2013, 08:22 AM

As we have seen before and in other threads, people being fans of Bruce Lee make it hard to discuss things objectively... and if you do, you are labeled a "hater" in an attempt to distract from the actual subject

Most of what is said / told about Bruce Lee comes from close personal friends who of course loved him and of course hold dear the memory of their lost friend, but that means they are hardly objective...

It could of course also be argued that many had a financial stake in the Bruce Lee image. Linda Lee became a millionaire off of Bruce's image, doing a lot of things that were a little "off". Many of Bruce's notes were just that, notes, never intended to be published. many were just quotes of OTHERS. Linda Lee was sued successfully several times by the actual authors of many of the pieces she passed off as Bruce Lee's original ideas.

What do we know of Bruce Lee's fighting ability? He won a high school boxing tournament in Hong Kong... this would make him the equivalent of a "golden gloves" but anyone who has been in USA Boxing and done "golden gloves" knows that for example being a NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago champion is miles ahead of being champion in other cites and states... Hong Kong?

An often cited story involves a karate student and Bruce fighting on a handball court. We don't know much about MR Karate other than he was NOT an instructor, since not a single source has made this claim. Did he take one class a week at the YMCA? Perhaps he had just started Karate a few weeks prior? We just don't know?

What do we really know about this fight with WJM? WJM was not a "famous fighter" nor even an established teacher at this point. There WERE established teachers and, more to point, quite a few active TONG enforcers in town at the time... ie there seems no question there were people with better "credentials" to beat Bruce Lee?

We know, without any doubt, that Bruce Lee was not happy with his performance in the fight. He changed everything he did as a result.... changes like that are seldom the result of a victory, much less a brilliant victory....

We know that WJM was out in public the next day, with nothing more than a scratch.....

Excellent post, and perfectly sums up the entire matter. And I say this as someone who has been a fan of BL since the '70s, and will remain so.

As a kid, I used to believe the accounts as given by the "BL camp". I mean, why not? It's what was in print. Then in my late teens, I began to see things from an objective POV. When you do that, the truths become more self-evident.

IMO, supporting exaggerated claims or (perhaps even) outright lies by some of those who were close to BL and had the most to gain from his legend, does not equal true respect for BL's actual accomplishments. Neither is being a fan and lacking the ability to be objective about it. What it is, is idol worship, plain and simple...treating someone as a demi-god who could do no wrong. If anything, it suggests DISrespect, a belief that BL's real achievements alone were not enough, and that he needed falsehoods to prop him up.

The opposite could be said regarding WJM having been portrayed as a cowardly villain for nearly 50 years. Regardless how the fight went and the reasons for it, it was one moment in time, that should not define the entire lifetime he's lived since then.

MysticNinjaJay

10-19-2013, 12:13 PM

We know, without any doubt, that Bruce Lee was not happy with his performance in the fight. He changed everything he did as a result.... changes like that are seldom the result of a victory, much less a brilliant victory....

What I took from Linda Lee's account of the fight is that Bruce Lee won but the fight was sloppy. What he did is attempt to improve upon his fighting skills to be as efficient as possible. This is the mentality of a perfectionist. His actual account of the fight is very realistic. I can imagine a Wing Chun practitioner gassing in a three minute fight from over exerting himself and hitting his opponent in the back of the head and back with chain punches. He bruised his hands and he was winded which inspired him to improve his conditioning and overall approach to fighting. He was fanatical about this.

Wong's account on the other hand as I said before is less believable. A 20-25 minute fight between Traditional Martial Artists in a match with no rules and no protective gear is unlikely. Wong thinking his kicks were lethal is nonsense as is his claim that Bruce was trying to kill him so he fought defensively for 20-25 minutes. His account just wreaks of BS.

Also if Bruce Lee really lost the fight he was a complete idiot to claim that he won when there were witnesses there who could debunk his claim. Wong being upset that he talked about the fight and challenging him to a rematch sounds like a man who set out to redeem himself. Curiously there appears to be no evidence of the written challenge Michael Dorgan alleges Wong made for Bruce to fight him in a public rematch.

We know that WJM was out in public the next day, with nothing more than a scratch.....

We don't know that. No pictures were taken. Every account of that fight is hearsay since it wasn't recorded and there are contradictory reports.

The opposite could be said regarding WJM having been portrayed as a cowardly villain for nearly 50 years. Regardless how the fight went and the reasons for it, it was one moment in time, that should not define the entire lifetime he's lived since then.

If I were Wong Jack Man I would at least try to get the word out regarding my account of the fight in order to clear up any slanders told by the Bruce Lee camp.

We live in the internet age. It would be very easy to hook up with an interviewer and tell his side of the story. If he really did teach non-Chinese surely he could provide evidence by getting some of his students from the time period to vouch for him. It would still be a case of "He said, She said" and diehard Bruce Lee fans are going to believe him no matter what but if you value your name at all before you pass away surely you would attempt to tell your story.

Maybe it isn't important to him any more I don't know but the story of the sinister Wong Jack Man who represented the Chinese Martial Arts community of San Francisco in their racist campaign to prevent Bruce Lee from teaching non-Chinese only to be defeated in dominant and humiliating fashion persists to this day. They mentioned it in the last documentary I saw titled "I am Bruce Lee."

We'll never see video of the actual fight but at the very least Wong Jack Man could present the world with video of himself telling his side to create a permanent record of his account.

lkfmdc

10-19-2013, 12:57 PM

Kellen Bassette

10-19-2013, 01:08 PM

There are usually two major points of view concerning Bruce, one, he was the be all, end all master of martial arts; and the other side, he was just a movie star and never proved himself.

I think the first group needs to look past their hero worship and see reality, the haters, OTH, miss a lot of the good points about Lee.

Bruce Lee is probably the single, biggest influence to bring CMA to the west. Even if by movies and celebrity, he deserves credit for sparking interest. Also, a lot of folks credit Lee as "The Father of MMA," (Dana White included.) (I personally don't agree with this, since to my way of thinking MMA has been around for thousands of years.) It should be noted, however, that Bruce was well ahead of his time when it came to cross training, practicality and plain open mindedness. There wasn't a lot of that around during that period in the martial arts.

I think it's important to note that Lee had only formally trained for a relatively short period of time; and the techniques he lifted from systems outside Wing Chun, were often taken by observation, not from being coached in all the nuances, theory and technique by a teacher of the art. Bruce was obviously very athletic and naturally gifted and probably could absorb material better than most. One must question how deep his knowledge was, but at least he was actively learning and growing.

I recognize that BL never fought any noteworthy opponents and his "fight record" would be meaningless by today's standards. I do think he was on the right path though. He saw the need for weight training, conditioning and cross training, long before it was popular. He wanted to hit bags and pads and spar full contact. He called out folks that didn't believe in these methods. He may have never evolved to the point of what we think of as the MMA fighter of today, but if he had been given the time, or came up in the '90's I believe he would have.

He probably would have fought, probably would have won some, lost some, probably would have kept learning, we can only speculate.

In a lot of ways, BL is still decades ahead of some of the TCMA community, at least in theory and practice, even if he never proved it.

MysticNinjaJay

10-19-2013, 01:20 PM

I will just state two things

1) WJM was a waiter in a very popular restaurant in Chinatown and a lot of people saw him the next day. He had no noticeable effects of a "fight"... my kids leave sparring nights with more damage every day of the week....

If you weren't there then how do you know?

2) Anyone can say anything, it is meaningless out of context... context in Linda Lee's case is that many things she has said have been proven to be wrong... and she had motive to tell the story the way it was told,,,, motive and opportunity is what they say in law enforcement....

Why should we believe Wong's account over her's? Or Bruce Lee's for that matter?

What did Linda Lee say that was proven to be wrong?

I haven't seen any proof of anything regarding this fight. I just find Bruce's account to be more credible than the account attributed to Wong. Bare in mind I'm basing my assessment on Michael Dorgan's interview in Official Karate magazine which is on the internet. A second hand account. I haven't even read an interview by Wong Jack Man himself.

Have you?

lkfmdc

10-19-2013, 01:26 PM

If you weren't there then how do you know?

How do I know he worked there? Wow, that isn't in dispute... and TONS of people who are still alive and well were there the day after and never reported him "beat up"... Two people of VERY HIGH REPUTATION have said it was only one scratch, so you'd have to call them liars

Why should we believe Wong's account over her's? Or Bruce Lee's for that matter?

What did Linda Lee say that was proven to be wrong?

The fact was that White people were already being taught kung fu at the time, by members of the group Lee and Linda claimed were trying to stop him from teaching...

WJM had tons of white students.....

The open challenge that Lee issued, that lead to the fight, is a proven fact... there are still copies of it around...

When WJM gave his interview in the Chinese press, and refuted Lee and offered a public rematch, Lee avoided the issue like the plague...

SIFU RON

10-19-2013, 02:04 PM

What I took from Linda Lee's account of the fight is that Bruce Lee won but the fight was sloppy. What he did is attempt to improve upon his fighting skills to be as efficient as possible. This is the mentality of a perfectionist. His actual account of the fight is very realistic. I can imagine a Wing Chun practitioner gassing in a three minute fight from over exerting himself and hitting his opponent in the back of the head and back with chain punches. He bruised his hands and he was winded which inspired him to improve his conditioning and overall approach to fighting. He was fanatical about this.

Wong's account on the other hand as I said before is less believable. A 20-25 minute fight between Traditional Martial Artists in a match with no rules and no protective gear is unlikely. Wong thinking his kicks were lethal is nonsense as is his claim that Bruce was trying to kill him so he fought defensively for 20-25 minutes. His account just wreaks of BS.

Also if Bruce Lee really lost the fight he was a complete idiot to claim that he won when there were witnesses there who could debunk his claim. Wong being upset that he talked about the fight and challenging him to a rematch sounds like a man who set out to redeem himself. Curiously there appears to be no evidence of the written challenge Michael Dorgan alleges Wong made for Bruce to fight him in a public rematch.

We don't know that. No pictures were taken. Every account of that fight is hearsay since it wasn't recorded and there are contradictory reports.

If I were Wong Jack Man I would at least try to get the word out regarding my account of the fight in order to clear up any slanders told by the Bruce Lee camp.

We live in the internet age. It would be very easy to hook up with an interviewer and tell his side of the story. If he really did teach non-Chinese surely he could provide evidence by getting some of his students from the time period to vouch for him. It would still be a case of "He said, She said" and diehard Bruce Lee fans are going to believe him no matter what but if you value your name at all before you pass away surely you would attempt to tell your story.

Maybe it isn't important to him any more I don't know but the story of the sinister Wong Jack Man who represented the Chinese Martial Arts community of San Francisco in their racist campaign to prevent Bruce Lee from teaching non-Chinese only to be defeated in dominant and humiliating fashion persists to this day. They mentioned it in the last documentary I saw titled "I am Bruce Lee."

We'll never see video of the actual fight but at the very least Wong Jack Man could present the world with video of himself telling his side to create a permanent record of his account.

It is easy to say anything about someone that is no longer alive , Bruce isn't here to speak for himself but Wong Jack Man is and if I were him I would have said my piece the very first time it came up. Whenever I read a false statement made about my Sfiu the late Gm Ark Y Wong I speak up then and their , and I don't care who it is I have to confront. My best to all

MysticNinjaJay

10-19-2013, 02:47 PM

How do I know he worked there? Wow, that isn't in dispute... and TONS of people who are still alive and well were there the day after and never reported him "beat up"... Two people of VERY HIGH REPUTATION have said it was only one scratch, so you'd have to call them liars

I'm asking you how you know that Wong showed no signs of injury from the fight if you weren't at the restaurant. Which two people made the claim? What are their names? Where is the source for their statements?

The fact was that White people were already being taught kung fu at the time, by members of the group Lee and Linda claimed were trying to stop him from teaching...

WJM had tons of white students.....

Did he? Do you know any of these students or have you seen group photos verifying this statement? I'm not convinced that this aspect of Linda's story is true however I haven't seen evidence that disputes it either.

The open challenge that Lee issued, that lead to the fight, is a proven fact... there are still copies of it around...

Are there? Have you seen it? Can you post a picture of Bruce's open challenge?

When WJM gave his interview in the Chinese press, and refuted Lee and offered a public rematch, Lee avoided the issue like the plague...

Have you seen a copy of this interview?

All of the statements you are giving me are claims that I heard in Michael Dorgan's article published in Official Karate magazine but I have not seen a shred of evidence backing any of his assertions. A poster on a blog claimed that he had tried to find a copy of Wong Jack Man's supposed challenge but could not find it anywhere suggesting that it never happened.

http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/bruce-lee-%E2%80%93-myth-vs-fact/

I would be more than happy to debate this topic with you if you can provide solid evidence that Wong had in fact publicly challenged Bruce Lee. I’ve been looking for that newspaper, or at the very least, someone of reputation who had read of that challenge since the early 1970′s. To this date, no one has come forward with any evidence to support Wong’s claim of said public challenge. Why? Because it never happened.

Now I'm not saying that it didn't happen. But if it did where is the evidence?

I have searched the internet and have not found any direct statements from Wong Jack Man about this fight nor evidence for any of the claims confirming the account of the fight attributed to him.

I stand by the position that since the fight wasn't recorded we don't really know what happened. Only the people who were there know and they are giving conflicting accounts. Without concrete evidence all we have is hearsay regarding the fight.

lkfmdc

10-19-2013, 05:30 PM

I'm asking you how you know that Wong showed no signs of injury from the fight if you weren't at the restaurant. Which two people made the claim? What are their names? Where is the source for their statements?

In a gossipy community like Chinatown if he had shown up at work with a black eye or bruises you can be ****ed sure people would have talked about it.

And, AGAIN, you'd have to call both Ming Lum and David Chin liars because both have said in print it was a scratch

Did he? Do you know any of these students or have you seen group photos verifying this statement? I'm not convinced that this aspect of Linda's story is true however I haven't seen evidence that disputes it either.

The above two mentioned consented to use their names and consented to interviews, but I am not going to drag people into something when they aren't aware... I know two people personally who were students of WJM and are lilly white.....

In the same community there were many schools who had white students. Go on the southern forum and ask... you'll get tons of responses

Are there? Have you seen it? Can you post a picture of Bruce's open challenge?

In the past there was indeed clippings of Lee's "challenge"... don't know where it is on the internet, but you can use google if you want

MysticNinjaJay

10-19-2013, 06:51 PM

In a gossipy community like Chinatown if he had shown up at work with a black eye or bruises you can be ****ed sure people would have talked about it.

I suppose. But if you didn't live during that time period or weren't in the area when it occurred you can't be certain of what the gossip surrounding the fight was as you weren't there. You can only go by the accounts of people who were there.

And, AGAIN, you'd have to call both Ming Lum and David Chin liars because both have said in print it was a scratch

Before I can even begin to assess the credibility of these gentleman I first have to ask you your source for their testimonies. You haven't answered that question yet.

The above two mentioned consented to use their names and consented to interviews, but I am not going to drag people into something when they aren't aware... I know two people personally who were students of WJM and are lilly white.....

In the same community there were many schools who had white students. Go on the southern forum and ask... you'll get tons of responses

If this has already been discussed and students of Kung Fu masters in the Bay area who are not of Chinese descent have confirmed their existence perhaps you can direct me to some posts. I personally highly doubt that Bruce Lee was the only person teaching Kung Fu to non-Chinese students in the area. But was it rare enough to spark concern among other teachers in the community? That's possible. I would like to hear from an expert on the topic before reaching a conclusion.

In the past there was indeed clippings of Lee's "challenge"... don't know where it is on the internet, but you can use google if you want

I did. I didn't find anything....

The internet is pretty vast so if these clippings existed at any time surely there would be copies of them on the internet or at least a mentioning of them.

Siu Lum Fighter

10-26-2013, 12:32 PM

As a former student of Wong Jack Man's, I have been debating this subject for years. Because of my proximity to Sifu Wong and the people in his circles I came to find out a great many details that weren't in the Michael Dorgan article and weren't known by the general public until now.

Before you guys keep going on about the same "facts" that have been known for decades, why not read about the facts that nobody knew about until Rick Wing published, "Showdown in Oakland: The Story Behind the Wong Jack Man - Bruce Lee Fight" (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-Bruce-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I). Why anyone is discussing this matter without having read that book, which was endorsed by Ming Lum and James Yim Lee's son, Greglon Lee, is beyond me.

The kindle edition is all that's available right now but if you don't have a kindle all you need is a computer and an amazon account to read it with the Kindle Cloud Reader or the Kindle Reader app (which are both free). The only cost would be the price of the book which is $9.95.

I know this might sound like I'm advertising the book to increase profits for Sifu Wing's school or something but, in case you didn't know, book publishing isn't that lucrative anyway, and I, for one, am so tired of trying to answer the same questions about this subject when the definitive treatise on the matter has been published. There's so many details in there and, in case you guys were wondering, ALL of the Chinese Pacific Weekly articles are displayed and translated. There's pictures of every location relevant to this event, interviews with almost everyone involved, and detailed histories of both Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man. If you guys are so interested in this subject then you should read that book first before commenting on this thread at all. Believe me, there will be a lot fewer questions about what happened.

GeneChing

06-02-2014, 10:02 AM

The fight will get revisited on the big screen soon. See our Birth-of-the-Dragon (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67701-Birth-of-the-Dragon) thread.

SIFU RON

06-02-2014, 04:04 PM

The fight will get revisited on the big screen soon. See our Birth-of-the-Dragon (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67701-Birth-of-the-Dragon) thread.

This will be a must see , the interest in Bruce Lee still goes on ,

thanks Gene

David Jamieson

06-03-2014, 05:12 AM

Bruce Lee has been dead for 41 years.
He's a marketing tool, or, his visage is at least.
There's people who have heroes.
Let people have heroes. If they want that.

Fa Xing

06-03-2014, 08:59 AM

I read Showdown In Oakland last year, and being from the Bruce Lee/JKD side of things I will say from my perspective is that the truth is somewhere in the middle of both stories. TBH, Bruce thought he won because he didn't think, as WJM claims, that his opponent tripped. Anyone who has sparred/fought knows things happen fast and you don't always have the clearest picture of what is happening. I know I've experienced this from having been video recorded while sparring, I didn't realize I was doing something, and then noticed it was very pronounced on video. Subjective accounts are not the best source for information, unfortunately there wasn't a camera at the time to determine who really won, if anyone really won to begin with.

By the way, I think the whole story about race is just a story, probably one BL told his wife so that she wouldn't get too upset with him fighting.

David Jamieson

06-03-2014, 01:32 PM

I think the whole thing has been through the story mill so often it's not even worth considering anymore.
We are in the here and now after all and so any beef between a guy who has been dead for 40+ years and WJM is
not really relevant to our training cycles.

Bruce Lee has been dead longer than most here have even been alive.
I don't know how many times I've encountered 20 somethings going on about how Great BL was.
It's kind of not really helping me be convinced of their intelligence levels quite frankly...

But that's just me.
People gonna do what they gonna do.

Jimbo

06-03-2014, 02:04 PM

I agree that the story is past being relevant. But I don't see anything wrong about somebody admiring BL. After all, LOTS of people go on and on about how 'great' John Wayne was, calling him 'A Real American Hero'. I personally disagree about JW, but to each his/her own. And as for BL, it's when the admiration crosses over into cult worship that it goes too far. But admiring BL is, IMO, far better than hero-worshipping people like Ed Gein, Charles Manson, etc., who, believe it or not, have lots of admirers.

Anyway, there's at least as many 20-something year-olds who post a lot of smack about BL, saying how much he 'sucks'. That's every bit as ignorant as those who believe BL was 'The Greatest Ever'.

David Jamieson

06-04-2014, 08:55 AM

Anyway, there's at least as many 20-something year-olds who post a lot of smack about BL, saying how much he 'sucks'. That's every bit as ignorant as those who believe BL was 'The Greatest Ever'.

True enough and point taken. :)

Syn7

06-05-2014, 04:14 PM

Jimbo

06-05-2014, 06:43 PM

Totally fair point. But hero worship in itself is unhealthy, no matter who the subject may be. Better a positive influence than a negative one, no doubt, but unhealthy none the less.

Good point, Syn.

Hero worship (probably) more often than not is more about what the admirer projects on to the person being admired than who that person really is. Probably better to respect what the person accomplished, and be positively motivated by that.

Siu Lum Fighter

06-12-2014, 08:07 PM

But how is the story not relevant anymore? They're making a movie about it. The fight was supposedly the impetus for Bruce developing Jeet Kune Do, a style that a great many people promote to this day. The claim that the fight was over racism (when it surely was not) is still accepted by most martial artists and Bruce Lee fans throughout the world.

Originally Posted by SKM
Question: Is not Peter Ralston from your school? He carved out an impressive niche for himself with his Jen Hsin School of training. All the best. Peter Ralston trained with Sifu Wong in the 1970's which was decades before I learned anything from him. Just the fact that he was the first Caucasian to win an international full-contact Martial Arts World Tournament should make people question the validity of these claims that the fight was over racism. In my experience, when one thing in someone's story is proven to be a lie there's usually a lot more falsities people don't know about.

David Jamieson

06-16-2014, 12:15 PM

But how is the story not relevant anymore? They're making a movie about it. The fight was supposedly the impetus for Bruce developing Jeet Kune Do, a style that a great many people promote to this day. The claim that the fight was over racism (when it surely was not) is still accepted by most martial artists and Bruce Lee fans throughout the world.
Peter Ralston trained with Sifu Wong in the 1970's which was decades before I learned anything from him. Just the fact that he was the first Caucasian to win an international full-contact Martial Arts World Tournament should make people question the validity of these claims that the fight was over racism. In my experience, when one thing in someone's story is proven to be a lie there's usually a lot more falsities people don't know about.

Jeet Kuen Do isn't a style though. It even says so in Bruce's book. It's about how to make the style you have effective. It's not bad info either overall and has some interesting aspects to it.

Making a movie doesn't give something more relevancy though. Does it? :)

Fa Xing

06-17-2014, 08:25 AM

Jeet Kuen Do isn't a style though. It even says so in Bruce's book. It's about how to make the style you have effective. It's not bad info either overall and has some interesting aspects to it.

Making a movie doesn't give something more relevancy though. Does it? :)

Well, in the 1960's there was a set curriculum while he was teaching, from what I read, and heard from talking to Jerry Poteet that it was called Jeet Kune Do, and their certificates say Jeet Kune Do on them. Bruce has also mentioned in his book (we're referring to Tao of JKD, I presume) that JKD is modified wing chun, modified western boxing, and modified western fencing.

You are right to an extent though that it is not a style, especially the longer in you train with the principles that Bruce talked about. In fact when he trained Joe Lewis, he didn't really train in him in techniques but more had him train what he knew and adapt his principles to Lewis' already effective fighting abilities.

8732 This is Ted Wong's certificate, and it says "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do."

http://youtu.be/1Tgv0JfTMvo I have always liked this description of JKD.

Fa Xing

06-17-2014, 08:25 AM

As well as Bruce's own words.
http://youtu.be/JF_vh8RRXoU.

sanjuro_ronin

06-17-2014, 09:37 AM

IN a nutshell, JKD is a set of principles that can be applied to any style/system of combat.
Does that then make that style JKD?
No, not really.
That said, the moment anyone formalizes anything, even principles, it is almost impossible NOT to develop a system.

Fa Xing

06-17-2014, 09:55 AM

David Jamieson

06-17-2014, 10:07 AM

Fa Xing

06-17-2014, 10:10 AM

The one thing I have discovered is that what I have learned as JKD, allows a certain amount of breathing room when it comes to incorporating things one might learn from other styles, as long as you maintain that "JKD structure." All things aside Jerry Poteet has told me "if you are always thinking of hitting, then you are doing it correctly," and Bruce's words: "efficiency is anything that scores." JKD is about fighting first and foremost, and then it's about knowing yourself while fighting.

Fa Xing

06-17-2014, 10:17 AM

The "system" that was Bruce Lees was "Jun Fan Kung Fu"
the JKD was as Sanjuro states, but was not systematized, no sets, nothing there that didn't apply to any martial arts from Bruces understaning of them etc.

FWIW Jun Fan was Bruce's actual name IE : Lee Jun Fan. Bruce was his American name.

It would be like if a guy named Ted opened a Kung Fu school and called it "Ted's Kung Fu" same/same.

And yes, BL was junior classmate to William Cheung who was senior student of Ip Man. Bruce is said to have learned a little more than half the style of Wing Chun and he dabbled in a bunch of other stuff.
His primary interest was obviously making movies and being a movie star.

Yes, that's true to some extent, but he stopped using the term "Jun Fan Gung Fu" later on because he was trying to get away from traditional styles, Dan Inosanto started using the term in the late '70s and into the '80s because he promised to Bruce Lee never to openly teach "Jeet Kune Do" so Inosanto used it as means to teach JKD without calling it that, that he wouldn't feel as if he broke his promise to his teacher.

I totally disagree with movie making aspect to a degree, he only focused on movies/TV towards the last 5-6 years of his life, and it was to get across his philosophy to a wide audience. It's interesting watching his movies after exploring Bruce's philosophy to a greater degree.

David Jamieson

06-17-2014, 11:25 AM

Yes, that's true to some extent, but he stopped using the term "Jun Fan Gung Fu" later on because he was trying to get away from traditional styles, Dan Inosanto started using the term in the late '70s and into the '80s because he promised to Bruce Lee never to openly teach "Jeet Kune Do" so Inosanto used it as means to teach JKD without calling it that, that he wouldn't feel as if he broke his promise to his teacher.

I totally disagree with movie making aspect to a degree, he only focused on movies/TV towards the last 5-6 years of his life, and it was to get across his philosophy to a wide audience. It's interesting watching his movies after exploring Bruce's philosophy to a greater degree.

He was 33 when he died... He really was all about making movies and burst onto the American scene in 1973 with Enter the Dragon. He had a hit in Hong Kong and that's what led to that. He worked for a year on teh Green Hornet and spent a lot of time looking for jobs as an actor in Hollywood. He didn't spend his time becoming a fighter an didn't focus anywhere near as much on that as he did on movies, hanging out with movies stars etc.

He was essentially a pretty young guy who was a champion cha cha dancer who exploited the rise of asian martial arts in america as his inroad.
If he really wanted to be a fighter, then he would have done that don't your think? I mean, a few demos here and there, no fights in any organized way, no fight record, no wins over anyone of any significance....well, it doesn't add up when you consider he invested all his time in theatrics and got the break.

he lost teh break when he had The Silent Flute (Circle of Iron) scooped out from under him and with that, the TV series Kung Fu which wound up going to David Carradine because of prevalent institutionalized racist attitudes in teh 1970s that held Asian out of movies and tv for ages.

Bruce's philosophy was completely borrowed and consisted of a blend of Confucian and Taoist phrases and ideas.
Of interesting note is the lack of material he did on "Shaolin". That always struck me as a little odd. His Kung Fu stuff was always gangster based triad / tong stuff. Ip Man, his teachers teacher was a retired ex HK cop with a bit of an opium problem. Probably where his(BLs) ideas about kung fu came from in a lot of ways.

Faux Newbie

06-17-2014, 11:51 AM

In fairness, I know a number of people who have done stunt work and movie work who do kung fu.

None of them would have a job if they did not train a lot more than your average martial artist. Most of the source material tends to support the idea that Bruce Lee was rather obsessive about training, even, maybe especially, compared to many of his contemporaries in martial arts.

Additionally, he had some rather well known competitive fighters who trained under him, more than any kung fu stylist of his time that I am familiar with. I don't think that they were just duped, I think they saw value in what he did.

That said, I do think he was his own worst enemy in a way.

sanjuro_ronin

06-17-2014, 11:55 AM

Bruce knew His ****.
That the top MA of his time thought he was very good, speaks volumes.
I don't think he was as revolutionary as many think he was, I think he was simply more open to common sense and what TRULY was the tradition of kung fu than many of his TCMA contemporaries.
I think that because he loved to read and study MA histories that he realized that the REAL tradition of MA is physical fitness AND fighting and if you don't do both you are NOT a MA.
He realized that the great MA of the past ALL cross trained and ALL cross tested their MA and developed their OWN systems of fighting.
He followed suit.
There is a lesson there.

David Jamieson

06-17-2014, 12:18 PM

Bruce knew His ****.
That the top MA of his time thought he was very good, speaks volumes.

Did he? Did they?
Here's an article that in a nutshell tells the truth, isn't mean or rude, just the truth.
http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/bruce-lee-%E2%80%93-myth-vs-fact/

Jimbo

06-17-2014, 12:56 PM

BL was a child actor in HK before he came back to America at 18. His father was a Cantonese opera singer and actor. So while BL did want to spread his MA philosophies later on through TV/film, it can't be denied that acting/performing on camera was in his blood, and that he enjoyed it for its own sake as well. It's clear that BL had basically two areas of aptitude in his life; acting/performing, and MA.

Because people have built him up so much, they've projected their own expectations onto him. That's their fault. obviously, I never met him, and no, I don't think he was "the greatest fighter"; but he clearly had something for top MAists of his time to have listened to, respected and learned from him (and in turn, he from them). But I'm willing to bet his abilities still FAR exceeded most "average Joe Blow MA guys". Just because he wasn't a top fighter doesn't mean he didn't know his stuff.

Faux Newbie

06-17-2014, 01:01 PM

The problem I see with that article is that it really is better examined as a means of not hero-worshiping than a real critique of BL.

I mean, when you use Kareem's statement that Bruce had difficulties dealing with the size difference as disproof of BL's ability, I think you run into a problem. I don't know anyone who regularly spars under that large a size difference. I'd need to find a 9' tall guy to even make it happen.

Also, the film speed thing. BL was pretty quick, compared with contemporaries also filmed on old cameras. I'm not saying he is the end all be all, but the same criticisms of BL that are in that article can be better applied to 99% of the tma teachers of that era.

Yes, he did not become a ring fighter, but he had major ring fighters training regularly with him. And compared with footage of his contemporaries, I am not seeing a guy whose kung fu was deficient. Of course, there are areas he was not as skilled at. Of course, there were others in that era that had skills that he did not.

Nonetheless, I still can't name a kung fu sifu from that era with as many full contact champions who felt their class was worth their time.

Faux Newbie

06-17-2014, 01:05 PM

I'm willing to say that he was better than the average sifu, at least as far as striking goes. His students had more contact experience than most kung fu practitioners. More than teachers, in some lines.

This is not to say he was the best, but he was better than a lot of people.

Again, martial artists working in film are under tremendous pressure to maintain skills and add new skills. More than most teachers. And they tend to have far more exposure to different methods than most martial artists.

Jimbo

06-17-2014, 01:12 PM

Nonetheless, I still can't name a kung fu sifu from that era with as many full contact champions who felt their class was worth their time.

Good points.

To be fair, however, most CMA teachers at that time were not actively going out and socializing with the American MA/sport karate community as BL did. BL was VERY outgoing and liked to show off, expound on MA, and associate/train with all types of MAists. Very different from your typical Chinese sifu, especially back then. In the 1960s, relatively little was even known about most CMA among Western MAists to begin with.

lkfmdc

06-17-2014, 01:43 PM

Lokhopkuen

06-18-2014, 02:19 AM

That is IMHO the best post you've ever written.

sanjuro_ronin

06-18-2014, 06:01 AM

Did he? Did they?
Here's an article that in a nutshell tells the truth, isn't mean or rude, just the truth.
http://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/bruce-lee-%E2%80%93-myth-vs-fact/

That article doesn't disprove or counter what I posted.
In fact it lends validity to it since he was viewed as a good teacher.
Note I never mentioned that he was a fighter, just a MA that knew his stuff.

sanjuro_ronin

06-18-2014, 06:04 AM

David Jamieson

06-18-2014, 06:09 AM

That article doesn't disprove or counter what I posted.
In fact it lends validity to it since he was viewed as a good teacher.
Note I never mentioned that he was a fighter, just a MA that knew his stuff.

:) wasn't going for the disprove. Just a perspective from a guy that I also happen to share for the most part regarding the subject.
I think for what it was at the time. It's all good. The problems do come from the hero worship as far as true optics go.

sanjuro_ronin

06-18-2014, 06:24 AM

:) wasn't going for the disprove. Just a perspective from a guy that I also happen to share for the most part regarding the subject.
I think for what it was at the time. It's all good. The problems do come from the hero worship as far as true optics go.

I agree, hero worship is just ridiculous.
We can all appreciate Bruce's views and understanding of MA ( even if we may not agree with him) but to make him MORE than simply a good MA for his time is just stupid.

Faux Newbie

06-18-2014, 06:26 AM

Reality #1: the cult of Bruce Lee makes it impossible to discuss the issue without it turning into a SH I T storm

Reality #2: Bruce's early death means that we have a "James Dean" phenomenon AND of course, his close friends remember him fondly and few are willing to "speak ill" of the dead

Reality #3: a lot of people have a vested interest in the Bruce Lee image. Inosanto IS a great martial artists, but never forget that before Bruce became a movie star, he was a PE and driver's ED teacher. HIs relationship to Bruce meant people who wanted to travel from across the world to study with him, pay him to do seminars, to do books, etc..... Chuck Norris owes his entire film career to Bruce...

Reality #4: the harshest of all, we forget just how limited and downright PATHETIC martial arts were on this side of the planet when Bruce was here. Joe Lewis spent ONE YEAR in Okinawa and was given a black belt. No one had seen spinning kicks until Chuck Norris came back from his stint in Korea. Peter urban was quoted as saying "everyone was so ignorant, I could, and did, teach whatever I wanted, whatever I could make up, and no one questioned me". We were still talking about "Judo chops" and though an Asian trained in martial arts was magical

I think there's a related point to 1 and 2, in tma, there is no shortage of people who posture themselves by means of saying someone else isn't the real deal. Some people who don't care for BL don't care for him for real world reasons. Some people talk about him as a means of making themselves more real, just like when certain people try to discredit you by saying you have other (qualified) people teaching in your school, therefore you don't know anything. Of course, this means they know everything.

Or the people who, upon hearing a certain sifu died of cancer, say it is because of the way they did their form. Not, you know, being a chain smoker.

Additionally, point 4. I think we have all seen a pretty fair cross section of schools in our lives. I seriously question the idea that even half of the teachers I've seen could have beaten BL, not because I worship BL, but because, frankly, MOST karate, tkd, and kung fu is three steps back in terms of contact experience compared to the norm back then, and BL used more of it than most tma schools of his day in his training and teaching.

I think both sides are dominated by people who have something they get out of their opinion of BL.

lkfmdc

06-18-2014, 08:31 AM

Additionally, point 4. I think we have all seen a pretty fair cross section of schools in our lives. I seriously question the idea that even half of the teachers I've seen could have beaten BL, not because I worship BL, but because, frankly, MOST karate, tkd, and kung fu is three steps back in terms of contact experience compared to the norm back then, and BL used more of it than most tma schools of his day in his training and teaching.

Bruce Lee was about 5' 6" and around 135-140 lbs...

This is Bruce Lee working a a bag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

hands down, just flailing

lkfmdc

06-18-2014, 08:31 AM

This is Bruce Lee sparring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

NOt really full contact as we understand the term

Faux Newbie

06-18-2014, 08:52 AM

Bruce Lee was about 5' 6" and around 135-140 lbs...

This is Bruce Lee working a a bag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

hands down, just flailing

I'll note you did not compare that to footage of the average kung fu, karate, or tkd teacher hitting the bag.:D

If the average kung fu instructor in the U.S. today were fighting BL, would you bet on them winning? Or just watch and make fun of the zaniness on youtube?

David Jamieson

06-18-2014, 10:36 AM

Let's dissect that bag work.
here's my critique, and frankly....it's not great.

1. His feet lose connection with the ground when he strikes.
2. His hands are down at his sides instead of up where they belong.
3. He's not using a lead to drive the power.
4. He's leaning in
5. He's not as relaxed as he needs to be.

In all fairness, as it goes, it's not likely that before him meeting boxers and kickboxers that he actually was trained to use a heavy bag which is usually a boxing thing.

So, in that context, Faux is correct, he's going at it exactly as expected. :p

Flame on mafas. :D

lkfmdc

06-18-2014, 01:48 PM

While Bruce Lee was in Hong Kong, they had a south east Asian cup full contact event. Lee was in attendance but sitting way in the back of the room with sun glasses on. He certainly could have fought....

In Thailand, where he filmed, there were certainly Thai boxers who knew how to properly hit a bag...

dcrjradmonish

06-18-2014, 06:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4a934j8fTc

If your fast and punching you don't need your hands up in guard. Mike Swick use to keep his hands down. I belive bruce was faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YdmtveRCb8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZdLJAYzV9M Tommy Hearns was another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-VaTYRjqs Diaz Brothers.

Also Bruce would most likely use eye pokes and not clinched fist in the street IMO.

Also alive foot work helps you get your punches off quicker than rooted strikes if you look at ali when he first boxed he was alive feet then as he got more rooted he got slower granted there was other factors.

Some guys fighting styles are with there hands down not one I choose but doesn't make them any better or worse than guys that keep them up.

He says he beat Bruce lee also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nik8VQAcuGE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBy6Op1_c8

Jimbo

06-18-2014, 06:57 PM

This is just a personal observation, but...

I always thought it was interesting, if you look at at the photos in the Bruce Lee's Fighting Method book series, BL posed the techniques (hand techniques and kicks) with his hands up, or at least in ready position. But in the photos of him side kicking the bag (for example), his arm(s) flew backwards. Same in the videos where he's side kicking the heavy bag or air shields.

But that's really not unique among many MA people. Unless you are really mindful of keeping your hands in ready position while making full contact on the bag, shields/pads, and sparring, it's easy to fall into bad habits while focusing strictly on power.

Faux Newbie

06-18-2014, 07:26 PM

I can totally see the problem with the footage that was posted.

And yet, it's still ahead of what a lot of people did and still do. And certain aspects after that time, based on his writings, progressed further. for him

I'm not a BL nut. Can't really watch much in the way of kung fu movies. But I'm just saying a good portion of those who slag BL (not all certainly) are not exactly his equals. There are exceptions of course, but most who talk are not exactly even accustomed to the level of contact you see in that video, or the degree of heavy bag usage in the other video. And so I really don't get the hate, aside from like two people who were wronged by the guy.

If we are to use the fact that he didn't learn all of wing chun as an attack, then we have to examine what the people who did learn it all have done since. If we are to take the word of a "nunchaku expert" on his nunchaku skills, we have to acknowledge there is such a thing.

I'm not willing to go out on a limb like that. Bruce Lee made kung fu famous in the west and provided a progressive context for it. He was also an egomaniac. Life goes on. His career, acting or otherwise, was dependent on his kung fu. He was a kung fu guy who, by any contemporary's account, trained a ton. He was undoubtedly limited, but there are a ton more limited guys being called freekin grandmasters now. Legitimate lineages who have produced no equal in the last century. Life goes on.

Dale Dugas

06-19-2014, 06:44 AM

Bruce Lee is dead.

His Kung Fu was not that good. Kung Fu is about health and longevity as well as fighting. You die early, your Fu sucked.

Jacky Chan is still alive and kicking.

Sammo Hung is still alive and kicking.

Freaking Chuck Norris is still alive and kicking.

Faux Newbie

06-19-2014, 07:45 AM

His Kung Fu was not that good. Kung Fu is about health and longevity as well as fighting. You die early, your Fu sucked.

His over training was possibly an issue. More likely is either congenital defect or drug use or both. I know few kung fu men your age who didn't do something in their 20s-30s that could have killed them right then and there, without it being because of their kung fu being deficient. Talented people sometimes die. We can argue whether BL was talented in this sense, but the idea that kung fu makes one immune to death is at odds with the history of kung fu. The legendary masters all lived to 100. The historical ones didn't nearly as often, and given that research suggests that genes have a lot more to do with longevity than most factors, I don't subscribe to this theory. Especially since many Chinese carry advantageous genes in this sense.

My grandmother chain smoked her whole life, and lived to be fairly old. I do not think her smoking technique was superior to that of others. The men in her side tended to die young. Under the same diet, same, sometimes better, lifestyles than her.

If one is going to suggest his martial arts did him in, then you have to show where this is the case. I mean, how does one demonstrate that the way a person did a side kick or bil jee causes brain aneurisms?

Life kills everyone. Mystical Taoists run away from this fact, Zhuangzi made fun of this tendency. Sometimes what we do helps preserve and sometimes not. Bruce Lee overtrained, and certainly had access to the hollywood party lifestyle of his day, which definitely killed plenty of people. Good kung fu doesn't magically make one immune to other damage from lifestyle, but, if that lifestyle becomes healthier, it may still help, and it may increase the odds, by way of being active, of surviving the more foolish years of one's life. But it doesn't make one immune to consequences.

As for kung fu being about health, I think Jackie Chan is not a strong example of healthy practices. Yes, he's alive. He's also got more injuries than anyone else alive.

Jimbo

06-19-2014, 09:08 AM

Back around the early '90s in Taiwan, I read a HK magazine article and interview of Jackie Chan that mentioned when he wakes up, it can take him a half hour to stand up straight and walk/move normally due to the accumulation of injuries over the years. He would do a series of very awkward exercises while still on the bed to warm his body sufficiently to 'hobble' to the sink to brush his teeth. Once warmed, he could function normally during the day. He looks good today at 60, but I wonder how he wakes up these days.

Sammo Hung not too long ago had a heart attack due to his weight.

I will say that Chuck looks awesome at 74, even if he didn't dye his hair and beard to a ridiculous degree.

Some people just die young, and some people just live a long time. Sometimes people die of genetic defects or other causes. My main northern-style teacher in Taiwan died young sometime ago, at the age of 37 or so, and his kung fu was very good. He died in a motorcycle accident, but he's dead nonetheless.

LaterthanNever

06-19-2014, 10:00 AM

My opinion may be a bit tainted if only because I'm a former student of the late Jesse Glover(Bruces' first student).

There seems to be this erroneous notion that in looking at or offering an opinion on Bruce, that one must either:

1.) Think he's the greatest ever with "the golden glow" from the movie "The last dragon", and posthumously stamping his name in gung fu immortality. Within this, comes other beliefs of prowess such as levitating, disappearing into the etherium and vanquishing any human on earth (said human can even be carrying any weapon known to man). Included in this is the ability to vaporize any opponent just by screaming "Hai-yaaaa!!!"

OR---

2.) The opposite end of the spectrum and villify him,etc.

Well? I belong to NEITHER CAMP!! Do I think he was "the greatest ever"? In terms of technical ability..no. I do think he did for chinese martial arts in terms of putting it on the map and cementing it into the consciousness of the West(America and later other countries). Similar to what Arnold Schwarzenegger did for the sport of bodybuilding.

That's not such a bad thing now is it?

All of this endless speculating! Would he have done the UFC? Would he started his own line of Bruce Lee protein and creatine supplements available at GNC? Would he have stopped doing martial arts and retrated to Kun Lun mountains and become a hermit? Yadda..Yadda..Yadda!

It's about as productive as speculating if the world population and the world as we know if for that matter might have been different if Hitler had been accepted to art school as he originally planned.

I'm sure that Master Wong Jack Man was a skilled instructor and fighter. Even Ali lost some fights. Everyone has a day when they are on top of their game and a day when they are less so.

The comment which was offered about Master Wong being painted as a racist is..well..peculiar to me. Both he and Bruce were chinese. I'm caucasin..it's like another white guy saying I'm a racist towards whites..LOL

lkfmdc

06-19-2014, 10:08 AM

Jimbo

06-19-2014, 11:06 AM

The comment which was offered about Master Wong being painted as a racist is..well..peculiar to me. Both he and Bruce were chinese. I'm caucasin..it's like another white guy saying I'm a racist towards whites..LOL

The accusations leveled at WJM by the BL camp was that WJM (and/or the people he represented) didn't like Bruce teaching Caucasians (or non-Chinese in general). NOT that WJM was racist towards BL. Personally, I don't buy the accusations.

Faux Newbie

06-19-2014, 11:09 AM

I hate to do this (no, actually, I don't really) but if you are going to talk about his death (or health) then you really need to be aware of this book which the Bruce Lee estate supressed for years... actually, written by Linda Lee's ex husband

http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/79/22/75842279/documents/UNSETTLEDMATTERS.pdf

I've read it.

This does not make the argument that his kung fu had anything to do with his death. There are real arguments to not like the guy or his martial arts, the health one is not a strong one, imo.

I think we've all known people with good kung fu who are not necessarily good people in every sense of the word.

lkfmdc

06-19-2014, 11:23 AM

Faux Newbie

06-19-2014, 11:32 AM

It mentions his recreational drug use, his steroid use and his obsession with working out.. some have suggested that he tried so many things and worked out so much he never gave his body a fair chance

I tend to think this was the case. I just don't see that as a valid critique of his technique (not that that is what you are saying). There ARE valid critiques, which you have made, I'm just saying if those were the worst that could be said of most (not all) kung fu sifus, then kung fu would be in a lot better shape. Bruce Lee was better than the average modern tma sifu, imo. I know you like rattling the cages of the BL fans, though.:D

as for being a *****, that has long been a given

David Jamieson

06-19-2014, 12:46 PM

The accusations leveled at WJM by the BL camp was that WJM (and/or the people he represented) didn't like Bruce teaching Caucasians (or non-Chinese in general). NOT that WJM was racist towards BL. Personally, I don't buy the accusations.

Yeah, that's a weird thing to say considering Caucasians were learning TCMA before Bruce even got on the scene.
My own Dad learned traditional Yang style Tai Chi and some Northen Kung Fu from a Chinese sifu in 1961...
Not to mention Ark Wong, Lee Ying Arng, and others that kind of blow that idea out of the water...

so there's that.

hskwarrior

06-19-2014, 12:57 PM

Not everyone in SF's Chinatown was against teaching outsiders in the 60's. But Lau Bun came before all of those guys and he didn't agree to teaching non chinese. sure towards the end of his life he may have made some exceptions, but after interviewing his students, they all agreed he generally wouldn't teach non chinese. so in the bay area at least, there was a big thing about non chinese learning gung fu.

LaterthanNever

06-19-2014, 02:47 PM

"onsidering Caucasians were learning TCMA before Bruce even got on the scene."

There are a few. The late Robert W. Smith(prolific author) learned kung fu (in China no less!) and he wasn't Chinese.

There were also other Chinese instructors besides Bruce who taught non chinese(GM Ark Yuey Wong,etc.

Concerning the book. I'm pleased to see mention of the late Master Fook Yeung(full name Yeung Gao Fook) who actually taught BL for more years than the late Ip Man. Master Yeung was a family friend of Bruce's dad and a member of the Red Boat Floating Opera troupe. He taught Bruce "red boat" WC which has elements of Southern Mantis and some other arts.

He recently died at..I believe 98 years old.

I find the claim that Bruce used anabolics to be dubious at best. Anabolics have a very noticeable effect on hypertropy of muscular growth and with how intense he trained he undoubtedly would have been much more massive and muscular.

hskwarrior

06-19-2014, 03:00 PM

T.Y. Wong was teaching white folk in the 50's and was on tv as well before bruce showed up

Fa Xing

06-20-2014, 03:57 PM

Unsettled Matters is an interesting book which I liked in terms of reading about things that may or may not happened, some of which can be refuted in other sources, but everyone is allowed to believe what they like. Although steroid development didn't really begin until the 1930 (http://www.steroid.com/History-of-Steroids.php)'s, there wasn't any reliable way of testing for it until after Bruce's death in 1975 (http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.timeline.php?timelineID=000017#1960-1989). That being said, it probably was available, whether he took it, we'll just never know. Just as an aside, Bruce is reported to have had cryptorchidism (undescended testes) on one side, which can limit natural testosterone production, but could also make a man infertile and clearly he had children...so, what I am getting at is that he could have been prescribed testosterone or steroids for medical treatment (but there is no evidence to support or refute that claim).

Quite frankly, does any of this matter? I don't worship Bruce Lee, but I do study and train JKD, and his writings and movements help me to understand Jun Fan JKD better. However, if you really want to be good at anything, you have to question everything and come to your own conclusions yourself because it's not about the "style" but the individual.

Happy training!

MysticNinjaJay

08-04-2014, 09:02 PM

I am currently reading Jesse Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. Jesse gives a very interesting account of the fight and the aftermath that comes directly through communication with Bruce Lee.

Here's an excerpt:

When Bruce left Seattle to move to California he had only one fight in the U.S. The next time that I spoke with him he told me that he had gotten into a fight with a student of a student of the famous master who had appeared on the front cover of Blackbelt magazine breaking 17 bricks. Bruce was at his school in Oakland with Linda (his wife) and James Lee his assistant in Oakland, and the man walked in with four or five people. The man was wearing a Gung Fu uniform and his manner indicated that he was there to promote some type of trouble. Bruce gave me a detailed description of the conversation that led up to the fight, but I have long since forgotten details. It is important to note that the man came looking for Bruce and not the other way around. Bruce said that he was both angry and ****ed off that the challenge was taking place in front of his wife. Another thought that was rushing through his mind was whether he and James could win if the other people joined the attack.

When Bruce finally squared off to fight, the other people remained on the sidelines, and he focused all of his attention on the coming battle. Bruce made his attack and the man turned and fled around the room. As the man moved away from him he lashed out backwards with both hands. Bruce said that the man could really move fast and that it was all the he could do to keep within punching range as he pursued him. He said that the man’s backward strikes were some type of finger strike and that he felt them graze him across the forehead as he gave chase. Bruce chased the man around the room and several of his punches bounced off the back of the man’s head. The man’s speed at running away nullified much of the effect of Bruce’s punches, and he was beginning to punch himself out. He said that he felt a slight touch of panic, not because of anything that the other man was doing but because he was running out of steam. The panic caused him to move a little faster and he managed to close and knock the man to the floor. He pinned the man to the floor and asked him what he had in mind now that he was trapped on the floor. The man said that he had made a mistake in coming to challenge Bruce, and acknowledged that he had lost the fight. The following week a story of the fight had appeared in the Chinese newspaper. The story said that Bruce had lost the fight and that he was in the hospital. It also said that Bruce had taken unfair advantage of the man by attacking before he was prepared.

When Bruce read the story in the paper he rushed to its office and demanded a retraction. Bruce was so mad that he could hardly control his temper. The editor agreed to print a retraction and Bruce forced him to reveal his source of information. The editor told him that he had gotten his information from Bruce’s opponent. Bruce left the paper and headed straight for the restaurant where the man he had fought worked as a waiter. When he entered the door the man was in the act of pouring tea, and he became so shook by Bruce’s appearance that he poured tea all over the table before he ran to hide in the back of the restaurant. Bruce felt that he had made his point so he didn’t follow the man into the kitchen. I would like to emphasis that when the fight ended Bruce had the opportunity to seriously hurt his opponent but he didn’t. This was an attitude that I found occurring over and over again in Bruce. Once he had an advantage, he would never push it beyond what was necessary. The fight was one of the big turning points in Bruce’s training methods. He had fought a fast opponent who didn’t succumb to his past successful mode of attack and he had to resort to desperate measures to win.

The fight taught him that there were other men who could move with great speed and that he couldn’t always depend on his quick close to end a fight. It also taught him the value of being in shape to fight for a long time, and that his punch was less devastating to a moving target. These new insights forced Bruce into doing serious roadwork.

Interesting Cliff notes:

Wong Jack Man entered Bruce Lee's school with multiple men to challenge him.
Wong Jack Man proved to be an exceptionally fast opponent who Bruce had to chase around the room.
Bruce Lee punched himself out and became desperate to end the fight as he began to run out of steam.
After losing the fight Wong Jack Man told a Chinese Newspaper that Bruce Lee lost the fight and was hospitalized.
Bruce Lee demanded the newspaper print a retraction.
Bruce Lee confronted Wong Jack Man at the restaurant where he worked and Wong ran and hid.

So according to Jesse Glover's account Wong Jack Man was even more of a coward than what has been commonly reported. He ran during the fight. He verbally submitted to Bruce. He lied about winning and he ran and hid from Bruce when he was confronted. This is my first time hearing that Bruce Lee read what Wong Jack Man had to say in the papers and ofcourse it differs significantly for what is written in the Dorgan article.

I still haven't read Showdown in Oakland but now I'm intrigued to hear what else has been said about this fight.

bawang

08-04-2014, 09:04 PM

if wong jack man made a bunch of kung fu movies clawing out chest hairs, you would talk about how much of a poosy bruce lee was. bruce lee got away with his chest puffing big fighter posturing because it was chinatown. wong jack man was a restaurant worker working 10 hrs a day eating nothing but cabbage and rice, and he was the best chinatown had to offer to challenge bruce. if he tried same thing in china he wouldve lost his other testicle.

Fa Xing

08-05-2014, 07:52 AM

I am currently reading Jesse Glover's book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. Jesse gives a very interesting account of the fight and the aftermath that comes directly through communication with Bruce Lee.

Interesting Cliff notes:

Wong Jack Man entered Bruce Lee's school with multiple men to challenge him.
Wong Jack Man proved to be an exceptionally fast opponent who Bruce had to chase around the room.
Bruce Lee punched himself out and became desperate to end the fight as he began to run out of steam.
After losing the fight Wong Jack Man told a Chinese Newspaper that Bruce Lee lost the fight and was hospitalized.
Bruce Lee demanded the newspaper print a retraction.
Bruce Lee confronted Wong Jack Man at the restaurant where he worked and Wong ran and hid.

So according to Jesse Glover's account Wong Jack Man was even more of a coward than what has been commonly reported. He ran during the fight. He verbally submitted to Bruce. He lied about winning and he ran and hid from Bruce when he was confronted. This is my first time hearing that Bruce Lee read what Wong Jack Man had to say in the papers and ofcourse it differs significantly for what is written in the Dorgan article.

I still haven't read Showdown in Oakland but now I'm intrigued to hear what else has been said about this fight.

I forgot about this other account, makes me want to re-read Jesse's book and the Oakland one at the same time to see a comparison. Quite truthfully, both versions put it at WJM coming in to Bruce's studio to issue a challenge in response to a challenge Bruce may or may not have issued during a demonstration that may or may not have been misunderstood. Honestly, if a group of men came in to challenge me at my own school, I would react the same (or call the authorities, or both).

Mystic, when you read Oakland, you'll get some of the followup to what led WJM to Bruce.

bawang

08-05-2014, 05:01 PM

at the end of the day, i still think bruce lee made a mockery out of kung fu.

Kellen Bassette

08-05-2014, 07:09 PM

kung fu movies clawing out chest hairs,

That scene is my earliest memory of Kung Fu.

bawang

08-07-2014, 02:56 PM

I've read it.
There are real arguments to not like the guy or his martial arts, the health one is not a strong one, imo.

if u get down to bruce lees movieshoot bodyfat percentage, your testes will shutdown and you can spontaneously die.

MysticNinjaJay

08-10-2014, 12:20 AM

I forgot about this other account, makes me want to re-read Jesse's book and the Oakland one at the same time to see a comparison. Quite truthfully, both versions put it at WJM coming in to Bruce's studio to issue a challenge in response to a challenge Bruce may or may not have issued during a demonstration that may or may not have been misunderstood. Honestly, if a group of men came in to challenge me at my own school, I would react the same (or call the authorities, or both).

Mystic, when you read Oakland, you'll get some of the followup to what led WJM to Bruce.

Well I did it. I finally read all of Showdown in Oakland. I have to say that it was a very good read and very well researched.

Here are what I considered to be Rick Wing's most important points:

1. The cause of the fight was Bruce Lee's challenge at the Sun Sing theater.

2. The fight was not over Bruce Lee's right to teach non-Chinese.

3. Linda Lee did not witness the fight.

4. Wong Jack Man and his crew intended the fight to be a sparring match with limitations on technique.

5. Bruce Lee attacked Wong Jack Man from the onset when he extended his hand, landing a blow above the eye which left a mark.

6. Wong Jack Man was able to do damage to Bruce Lee during the fight with a strike to the side of the neck.

7. Wong Jack Man slipped over a raised portion of the floor and Bruce Lee attacked him but did no damage.

8. The fight was stopped due to the intervention of the men witnessing the event.

9. Bruce Lee had demanded that Wong Jack Man admit defeat but he never yielded.

10. There was a battle in the newspapers over the outcome of the fight.

The battle in the newspapers was most interesting to me in this book. This was very new information to me and extremely bizarre. Basically someone had wrote in a Chinese newspaper that the fight was over a beautiful young actress who Bruce Lee had done a Cha-Cha dance with at the Sun Sing theater who Wong Jack Man was obsessed with and that Bruce Lee had lost the fight but scared Wong enough in to leaving her alone. Bruce Lee tried to set the record straight in the newspaper by denying these events and also declared that he was victorious in the fight.

I found that Rick Wing had a lot of credibility regarding the aftermath of the fight because he provided copies of the newspaper articles along with English translations. I wasn't however convinced of his account of the fight's result. He relied heavily on the Dorgan article for his analysis and tried to defend the narrative that the fight lasted around 20 minutes. He even considered the 3 minutes narrative provided by Linda and others to be absurd because he believed Bruce Lee was in good enough condition to last longer than a one round Boxing match. But we know from combat sports that a fighter can easily punch themselves out in the first Round if they don't pace themselves. Remember that according to Jesse Glover the issue with Bruce Lee in the fight was that he had trouble closing in on his opponent who was very swift and evaded him the whole fight while Bruce Lee exhausted himself throwing punches.

I think that Wing's insistence that Wong Jack Man not be vilified as a racist is a bigger issue than who won the fight. Did Bruce win? Was it a draw? Those matters are not clear but the evidence that Wong Jack Man was a representative of Chinese masters who didn't want Bruce teaching non-Chinese is severely lacking and I think Linda Lee should be questioned rigorously for her basis for that information. It's also interesting that she may not have seen the fight at all but her's is not the only account of Bruce Lee's decisive victory. Bruce Lee himself said in a Chinese newspaper and later in Black Belt Magazine that he had beaten Wong Jack Man soundly and gotten him to verbally submit. In fact in the Chinese paper Bruce Lee said that Wong Jack Man was so badly damaged and bruised that he did not show up for work for three days.

It's very possible that Bruce Lee embellished the outcome to save face or maybe the witnesses who say the fight was a draw are all lying. Someone lied about the outcome of this fight. I guess we'll never truly know exactly what happened but it is interesting that such thorough research has been done on the matter.

Fa Xing

08-10-2014, 08:40 AM

Well I did it. I finally read all of Showdown in Oakland. I have to say that it was a very good read and very well researched.

Here are what I considered to be Rick Wing's most important points:

1. The cause of the fight was Bruce Lee's challenge at the Sun Sing theater.

2. The fight was not over Bruce Lee's right to teach non-Chinese.

3. Linda Lee did not witness the fight.

4. Wong Jack Man and his crew intended the fight to be a sparring match with limitations on technique.

5. Bruce Lee attacked Wong Jack Man from the onset when he extended his hand, landing a blow above the eye which left a mark.

6. Wong Jack Man was able to do damage to Bruce Lee during the fight with a strike to the side of the neck.

7. Wong Jack Man slipped over a raised portion of the floor and Bruce Lee attacked him but did no damage.

8. The fight was stopped due to the intervention of the men witnessing the event.

9. Bruce Lee had demanded that Wong Jack Man admit defeat but he never yielded.

10. There was a battle in the newspapers over the outcome of the fight.

The battle in the newspapers was most interesting to me in this book. This was very new information to me and extremely bizarre. Basically someone had wrote in a Chinese newspaper that the fight was over a beautiful young actress who Bruce Lee had done a Cha-Cha dance with at the Sun Sing theater who Wong Jack Man was obsessed with and that Bruce Lee had lost the fight but scared Wong enough in to leaving her alone. Bruce Lee tried to set the record straight in the newspaper by denying these events and also declared that he was victorious in the fight.

I found that Rick Wing had a lot of credibility regarding the aftermath of the fight because he provided copies of the newspaper articles along with English translations. I wasn't however convinced of his account of the fight's result. He relied heavily on the Dorgan article for his analysis and tried to defend the narrative that the fight lasted around 20 minutes. He even considered the 3 minutes narrative provided by Linda and others to be absurd because he believed Bruce Lee was in good enough condition to last longer than a one round Boxing match. But we know from combat sports that a fighter can easily punch themselves out in the first Round if they don't pace themselves. Remember that according to Jesse Glover the issue with Bruce Lee in the fight was that he had trouble closing in on his opponent who was very swift and evaded him the whole fight while Bruce Lee exhausted himself throwing punches.

I think that Wing's insistence that Wong Jack Man not be vilified as a racist is a bigger issue than who won the fight. Did Bruce win? Was it a draw? Those matters are not clear but the evidence that Wong Jack Man was a representative of Chinese masters who didn't want Bruce teaching non-Chinese is severely lacking and I think Linda Lee should be questioned rigorously for her basis for that information. It's also interesting that she may not have seen the fight at all but her's is not the only account of Bruce Lee's decisive victory. Bruce Lee himself said in a Chinese newspaper and later in Black Belt Magazine that he had beaten Wong Jack Man soundly and gotten him to verbally submit. In fact in the Chinese paper Bruce Lee said that Wong Jack Man was so badly damaged and bruised that he did not show up for work for three days.

It's very possible that Bruce Lee embellished the outcome to save face or maybe the witnesses who say the fight was a draw are all lying. Someone lied about the outcome of this fight. I guess we'll never truly know exactly what happened but it is interesting that such thorough research has been done on the matter.

Very astute observations!

mickey

08-11-2014, 05:43 AM

Greetings,

The Jesse Glover, second hand, account becomes more important in understanding the "wtf really happenedf" when compared to the synthesis of Rick Wing's expositions on this thread. Since it was told to Glover by Bruce Lee himself, it is starting to look more like damage control in an effort to protect his image to his students (and, maybe, to himself) as the consummate kung fu man.

mickey

David Jamieson

08-11-2014, 08:33 AM

MysticNinjaJay

08-11-2014, 11:03 AM

Very astute observations!

Thanks.

Now that I've read the book I can compare Rick Wing's research to Jesse Glover's account and other sources to get a clearer picture of what happened.

Greetings,

The Jesse Glover, second hand, account becomes more important in understanding the "wtf really happenedf" when compared to the synthesis of Rick Wing's expositions on this thread. Since it was told to Glover by Bruce Lee himself, it is starting to look more like damage control in an effort to protect his image to his students (and, maybe, to himself) as the consummate kung fu man.

mickey

What I find particularly interesting about Glover's account and Wing's research are the differences between what happened in the aftermath of the fight. Glover says that Bruce Lee read a story in the newspaper saying that he lost the fight to Wong Jack Man and was hospitalized. He then went to the editor, demanded he print a retraction and forced him to give up the source which turned out to be Wong Jack Man. But Rick Wing supplied the actual copy of the newspaper article which isn't exactly flattering to Wong Jack Man. It does say Bruce Lee lost (nothing about being hospitalized) but it also says the fight was over a Chinese actress named Zhang Zhongwen, who Wong Jack Man was allegedly stalking and Bruce Lee fought him to get him to back off. I doubt that Wong Jack Man told anyone to put that sort of gossip in the paper as it makes him look bad.

I find it interesting that Wing says Bruce Lee went to Wong Jack Man's workplace to make peace and Glover says Bruce Lee went there for a possible violent confrontation which scared the hell out of Wong. If Glover's account is true I wouldn't be surprised if Wong omitted this from his account of events but Bruce could have also made it up. Rick Wing has a lot of evidence on his side including the newspapers and eyewitness testimonies while Glover's account is indeed a second hand source. I hate to say it but I'm starting to find Wing's account a bit more credible than the other stories out there. I don't want to believe Bruce Lee was a liar and I think Wong Jack Man easily could have lied but there's a lot of evidence in the favor of Wong Jack Man on this story although I'm not convinced that the fight happened exactly the way Wing says it did.

What I'd like to know is, why do any of you even care about this?
It is meaningless really when it gets right down to it.

I am stunned that there is still back and forth about some squabble that proved nothing, to anyone about anything at all is still argued about by people who never knew the guy or who were born long after his death (with a couple of exemptions on you old guys here).

So, here's my question: "why do you care about this footnote in Bruce Lee's life"?

The reason people care is because its an interesting and controversial topic. This fight set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming the breakthrough movie star that popularized Martial Arts. So it's important from a historical perspective. The fact that there are different accounts of the event make it even more interesting for people who want to play detective and try to uncover the truth. Since it wasn't recorded nothing will truly be resolved on the matter. We'll never know what really and truly happened as an objective fact. Only the people who were there know and they're getting old and dying. The rest of us are simply left wondering and for some that can be a fun thing to do.

lkfmdc

08-11-2014, 12:37 PM

What I'd like to know is, why do any of you even care about this?
It is meaningless really when it gets right down to it.

I am stunned that there is still back and forth about some squabble that proved nothing, to anyone about anything at all is still argued about by people who never knew the guy or who were born long after his death (with a couple of exemptions on you old guys here).

So, here's my question: "why do you care about this footnote in Bruce Lee's life"?

Serious response/question; do you feel that way about everything in the past?

In this particular case, spreading the idea that the Chinese kung fu community was so racist this fight happened to prevent gwai loh and hak gwaai from learning kung fu if it wasn't true was kind of F'ed up

Mor Sao

08-11-2014, 01:24 PM

Lee has been dead, buried and rotten for quite some time.

He was not all that he claimed he was.

Wong Jack Man outlived him.

Many others did.

hskwarrior

08-11-2014, 01:37 PM

Lee has been dead, buried and rotten for quite some time.

He was not all that he claimed he was.

Wong Jack Man outlived him.

Many others did.

nothing could be more true. wong jack man is still alive today. bruce lee left with his head hanging low when he tried to start stuff at Hung Sing Kwoon in SF Chinatown too. He was just a man.

MysticNinjaJay

08-11-2014, 07:46 PM

Serious response/question; do you feel that way about everything in the past?

In this particular case, spreading the idea that the Chinese kung fu community was so racist this fight happened to prevent gwai loh and hak gwaai from learning kung fu if it wasn't true was kind of F'ed up

I certainly believe that this story is important because the standard narrative includes claims that seriously hurt the character of some of the participants. The Chinese Martial Arts community in San Francisco's Chinatown is uniformly regarded as racist and Wong Jack Man is made out to be the enforcer of this tradition making him a racist by association. Any decent person would not want their reputation marred in such a way.

Wong Jack Man is also made out to be a coward who fled during battle, surrendered pathetically and later lied about the outcome of the fight displaying further cowardice when confronted by Bruce Lee at the restaurant where he worked.

This story is especially interesting to fans of Bruce Lee and supporters of Wong Jack Man but should catch the interest in anyone interested in Martial Arts history. If it hadn't happened history might not have turned out the way it did. Since something did happen I would like to try to get the facts straight as much as possible.

nothing could be more true. wong jack man is still alive today. bruce lee left with his head hanging low when he tried to start stuff at Hung Sing Kwoon in SF Chinatown too. He was just a man.

Tell us about this story. What's your source for this information?

hskwarrior

08-11-2014, 08:38 PM

Tell us about this story. What's your source for this information?

I learned these things from my gung fu uncles that were there when it happened. You can also find bits and pieces of what Bruce Lee felt about Lau Bun being the real deal.
i'm not going to get into so much detail about this, but there were more than one occasion that bruce lee's students were beat up by Lau Bun's students. Bruce Lee came downstairs to the school yelling and screaming. when Lau Bun came out of his office, Bruce Lee immediately left without a word and his head down. Lau Bun was like the god father of Chinatown. bruce knew this.

there are stories of bruce lee sending the green hornet actor down to hung sing and he got beat up the stairs and out into the streets. my gung fu uncle even got on stage and blocked all of bruce lee's punches in front of an audience when bruce said his punches were too fast to block. guess he was wrong.

mickey

08-12-2014, 04:52 AM

Greetings,

"This fight set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming the breakthrough movie star that popularized Martial Arts."

Actually, it was the late Ed Parker who set Bruce Lee on the path to becoming a movie star; if anything, it set Lee on the path to creating Jeet Kune Do.

mickey

David Jamieson

08-12-2014, 06:25 AM

lkfmdc

08-12-2014, 07:39 AM

Mor Sao

08-12-2014, 11:47 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0

David Jamieson

08-12-2014, 02:04 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0

Great Band!
Vernon Reid is an awesome guitar player.

lkfmdc

08-12-2014, 02:13 PM

Great Band!
Vernon Reid is an awesome guitar player.

I knew his sister in college

Siu Lum Fighter

08-22-2014, 12:50 PM

Well, It's not an all or nothing thing. This topic is done to death and is a dead end. He said/she said.

Things in the past can be learned from of course! History and all that what what ho!
I think that all the lemonade to be had from this subject has been gotten though.
Why is it there can be a thread called 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' with literally thousands of pages, and you are arguing so vigorously that this fight, the genesis of Jeet Kune Do, a style that countless people practice and pay lessons to learn throughout the world, isn't relevant?

I mean...they're making a movie out of it for Pete's sake! When they come out with some piece of utter fantasy about Huo Yuanjia or Ip Man you'd better believe there's going to be countless threads about it on here. But when this tale about Bruce Lee is about to be released in theaters throughout the world it's ancient history and a 'dead end'??

GeneChing

08-22-2014, 02:09 PM

They should make a movie based on our ISDfr (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?32782-Is-Shaolin-Do-for-real) thread. I'd order a large popcorn while watching that one. ;)

Vash

08-23-2014, 04:02 AM

I thought that was what the Hobbit/LotR series was adapted from, Gene.

lkfmdc

08-24-2014, 09:41 AM

They should make a movie based on our ISDfr (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?32782-Is-Shaolin-Do-for-real) thread. I'd order a large popcorn while watching that one. ;)

It would have to be a TV series, 10 seasons at least

PalmStriker

08-24-2014, 10:14 AM

:D It may have to compete with the WingChun Origins Cable TV Movie Series in it's sixth season.

Jeet Coon

09-13-2014, 02:21 AM

The fight is relevant because it changed Bruce's approach to fighting. Without that fight, Jeet Kune Do may not have been born, or at least not been born when it did. Lee may have simply kept modifying Wing Chun for the next several years, and been content with that.

Mor Sao

09-13-2014, 07:11 AM

Bruce Lee is dead, buried and rotten

Enough said.

His fu was not that strong.

Get over it and yourselves.

Jeet Coon

09-13-2014, 12:15 PM

Bruce Lee is dead, buried and rotten

Enough said.

His fu was not that strong.

Get over it and yourselves.

His "Fu" as well as his "Kung" was a lot stronger than yours.

Enough said.

Get over it, and yourself.

wiz cool c

09-13-2014, 10:33 PM

His "Fu" as well as his "Kung" was a lot stronger than yours.

Enough said.

Get over it, and yourself.

Not to mention if it wasn’t for Bruce lee probably most of us wouldn’t be doing kung fu. He inspired millions to be interested in martial arts and Asian culture. So that is a pretty ignorant statement. and doesn’t the guy who just said get over yourself post pictures of himself every other day.

bawang

09-19-2014, 02:48 PM

if kung fu could not have been successful without bruce lee, then kung fu is worthless.

Vash

09-19-2014, 04:57 PM

Bruce was strongest under heaven.

Do I mean Jenner or Lee? We'll never know.

SIFU RON

09-20-2014, 02:15 PM

PalmStriker

09-20-2014, 02:39 PM

:D Bruce Lee will always be known as the "King of Onscreen Explosive Rage". There are no contenders. A force to be reckoned with: http://blog.thestorefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/bruce_lee.jpg

iron_silk

11-20-2014, 05:11 PM

I previously went through this thread and did not recall anyone mention 2006 article by Gene Ching where Grandmaster Chin talks about his recollection of the infamous fight! (If this was introduced earlier please let me know and I will delete my posting?)

'Chin's role in this fight was significant. "It ended up that I became the messenger boy and took the (challenge) note to Bruce Lee," chuckles Chin wistfully. Of course, given the magnitude of Lee's place in pop culture, only Wong's students believe their master wasn't defeated outright. Few beyond the martial arts community remember Wong, who only recently retired from teaching in the San Francisco area. So what really happened? "To me, you can say it went both ways," recalls Chin. "Wong Jack Man was trapped by a window showcase. He fell and Bruce Lee got on top of him and that ended the fight. Wong Jack Man said he didn't give up. He said he got trapped in that showcase. It was just an accident." Furthermore, Bruce Lee wasn't the first to teach non-Chinese. Non-Chinese students dot the lineages of plenty of other styles from the same period. "I don't think it had anything to do with 'don't teach the gwailo (white ghost, a slang for Caucasians鬼佬).' Stuff like that - it's not true. Of course, Bruce Lee tried to make himself look good, but that wasn't the case. It was strictly a match to see whose kung fu was better at that time." So, the Lee vs. Wong fight wasn't about keeping secrets. It was quite the opposite - a publicity stunt.'

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661

hskwarrior

11-20-2014, 07:39 PM

my thing is how old was bruce lee when this took place? He was like what 19 or 20? he was just a kid, man. a stupid young kid. NOBODY was worth anything much at that age.
people need to stop acting like this was some awesome life ending match. bruce kept teaching and wong jack man kept teaching. all that really matters.

Fa Xing

11-21-2014, 11:52 AM

Bruce was about 24 at the time. I don't know about you guys but getting trapped and falling in a fight is still a problem for the person who has fallen, accident or not, Bruce had the advantage at that point and probably could have beaten the snot out of him there. In real life, no one's gonna give flying fuk if you've fallen because of an accident. Bruce had better control than I would have because I would have capitalized on that.

There's a common thread amongst all the stories told on Bruce's side: WJM was running from Bruce! Remember Starnes vs Quarry?

9208

GeneChing

09-09-2015, 08:46 AM

The Chron is doing some sort of retro series in their sports section called Game Changers. Here's the beginning of the article (you must be a subscriber to get it all).

SPORTS
In Oakland, Bruce Lee transformed martial arts (http://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/In-Oakland-Bruce-Lee-transformed-martial-arts-6485626.php)
By Vic Tafur September 4, 2015 Updated: September 8, 2015 7:29pm

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/40/57/37/8583135/7/920x1240.jpg
Photo: Michael Ochs Archives Bruce Lee, circa 1970.
It is a car dealership now, one of many on Broadway in Oakland, and there is no shrine or even a small sign that 51 years ago, the biggest martial-arts star of all time was fighting there for his livelihood.

GeneChing

12-15-2015, 12:12 PM

Wong Jack Man versus Bruce Lee Mythology: On Bruce Lee Legends and the forthcoming George Nolfi 'bio-fic' (http://martialartsstudies.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/wong-jack-man-versus-bruce-lee.html)

The origin story of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do hinges on Lee's 1964 fight with Wong Jack Man. This is a crucial event in the martial arts biography of Bruce Lee, because it prompted his subsequent reflections on why he had not won quickly, cleanly and decisively. This caused him to revaluate critically his 'classical' or 'traditional' martial arts training and to begin researching and experimenting with both new theories of combat and innovating with new training methods and techniques.

So far, so good. But what about his opponent, Wong Jack Man? What does the origin story do with him? And, given the fact that Wong is still alive and disputes key aspects of the story, what might this tell us about 'reality'?

In many accounts – both in writing and in film – Wong is said to have challenged Lee to the fight because Lee was offending the Chinese martial arts community by teaching kung fu secrets to white and black westerners. In this narrative, Lee is a representative of an open-minded multiculturalism. If we follow the chain of dominoes that falls down from here, this means that Wong is conversely the representative of an essentially racist and closed Chinese community. If Lee is the future, Wong is the representative of a separatist, hierarchical and racist past. Wong writes his formal challenge letter and has it hand delivered to Lee by a deputy. In some versions, the letter actually comes from the elders and rulers of the Chinese martial arts community tout court, and Wong is their champion.

In these versions, the Chinese community is formal and structured. As such, for the word 'community' we can easily hear the word 'triads'. And the liberal multiculturalist Bruce Lee is accordingly anathema.

Of course, in literal terms, in this narrative, the Lee-Wong fight most frequently becomes a fight to decide Lee's right to teach martial arts at all, never mind to non-Chinese people. The point that is emphasized is that if he loses, he loses his right to teach at all. But, as I have been suggesting, the story has a strongly symbolic or even symptomatic dimension.

Given the symbolic character of the key coordinates of this hugely overdetermined narrative structure, the bits and pieces of information that we have been given about the plot line of the forthcoming 'biopic' on Bruce Lee, directed by George Nolfi, are understandable. As one site writes: 'It will focus, in part, on Bruce Lee's 1965 duel with famous kung fu master Wong Jack Man and the attempts all three men made to stem the influence the Triads had around San Francisco'.

Now, at first I found this laugh-out-loud funny. For what we have here is a total flight of fantasy. Bruce Lee teaming up with Wong to fight the triads?! But in terms of the overdetermined character of the Jeet Kune Do origin myth, this kind of thematic exploration makes a kind of perfect sense. For, if we think about these narratives, the fight takes place at a transitional time: Bruce Lee has yet to escape from his martial arts culture. He's struggling with it. He's an ethnically Chinese man in the US, with a white wife and a burning ambition. But in many respects he's still stuck in 'China'. As Gina Marchetti writes of the intra-ethnic struggle played out by Brandon Lee in Rapid Fire, to become smoothly 'Asian-American', there must be a battle with something 'Asian' that must be vanquished (Marchetti 2006, Bowman 2013). Thus, Lee comes into contact with the representatives of China-abroad, fights and wins. He is now free to renounce and transcend something of his past and embrace the future.

In these narratives, Wong becomes the bearer of all of the negative symbolism of a formal, ancient, traditional, violent, Triad-China. And Lee must beat this, to prove not just 'his' but also modern multicultural US superiority. But what of Wong? In real life, very little attention has been given to what Wong has said very about the fight, although the Wikipedia entry that appears highly in an online search on him is suggestive: 'According to Linda Lee Cadwell, Bruce Lee's wife, Lee's teaching of Chinese martial arts to Caucasians made him unpopular with Chinese martial artists in San Francisco. Wong contested the notion that Lee was fighting for the right to teach Caucasians, as not all of his students were Chinese' [accessed 14 December 2015].

Nonetheless, in the films, such as Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, and even supposedly sober documentaries on Bruce Lee, such as one I appeared in (I Am Bruce Lee), Wong is roundly dismissed as a Chinese racist, pure and simple – a kind of capo of the racist Chinese 'authorities'.

As Sylvia Huey Chong has argued in her book, The Oriental Obscene (Chong 2012), the problem with this kind of narrative is that it locates racism related to the Chinese in the US firmly in the Chinese community: the Chinese are racist, because their community is closed and impenetrable, and so on. This means that even the celebratory narrative myths of Lee 'struggling against racism' displace the lion's share of 1960s racism away from the white hegemony and onto the shoulders of the ex pat Chinese community.

Given this, a reconsideration of famous characters like Wong in films like the forthcoming one from Nolfi do not seem surprising. But, on all the evidence we have to date about the likely plot structure, it seems that the film is following film-history rather than the biographical-history of Bruce Lee. But, this is hardly surprising: as Meaghan Morris has pointed out, it is easy to forget that films are primarily about films, at least as much as and before they are about anything else (Morris 2001).

In this light, it seems that George Nolfi's film will be in some sense responding to representations of Wong as typified by films like Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, and undertaking a reflection based primarily on them. And indeed we should ask, whether informed by film or by history: what about Wong? If Bruce Lee learned so much from this fight, what did Wong learn?

Surely both the real and the mythological Wong must have learned from the fight with Lee. And if Lee beat him, then what is the lesson that the mythological Wong might? That Lee's modern 'Western' ways are superior, perhaps even the future… Such a Wong might renounce the triads and indeed 'team up' with the mythological Lee on his ineluctable battle against iniquity, tradition without reason and blind conformity to style, etc.

Of course, I have scanty information about the film at this time. Only time will tell what the film comes to be. But we do have information about Wong, and his fight with Bruce Lee.

Continued next post

GeneChing

12-15-2015, 12:12 PM

As mentioned, according to the Bruce Lee Posthumous Myth-Making Machine, Wong challenged Lee because Lee was teaching non-Chinese. However, according to Wong, he did not actually challenge Lee because of this. Indeed, many people have stated that Wong was actually responding (as an individual) to Lee's own open challenge to any martial artist to come and see how good he was. This makes so much more sense than the version peddled by certain members of the Lee family (see I Am Bruce Lee for a good example of this), in which Wong was angry at Lee for teaching white people. Moreover, in some of his few published statements, Wong notes that he was not actually racist at all and was indeed teaching white people kung fu at the time himself. His motivation for the fight was mere headstrong youthful arrogance and aggressiveness, pure and simple.

But why has this never been properly been heard, acknowledged or engaged? Why do people ignore the 'two arrogant young men jostling for position in their own egos' narrative and prefer instead the 'beating Chinese racism' narrative? Doubtless there are many reasons (this is what 'overdetermination' means): because a lot of cultural thinking takes place via symbols, metonyms and stand-ins (Freud regarded 'condensation and displacement' the key aspects of 'dream-work', and this can be applied to the ways that cultures deal with 'issues', such as, say, racism – we dramatize them via stand-ins and proxies, good guys and bad guys); because Bruce Lee supporters, including the family members who have since gone on to rely on Lee's brand for their income, have actively encouraged it; because we want the battles of our heroes to be parables, allegories, and to bespeak larger truths; and so on. Unfortunately, in this mushrooming mythological process, one living individual, Wong Jack Man, has been transformed into an enduring anti-hero, both bad guy and victim.

In the essay, 'Dominici: or, The Triumph of Literature', in Mythologies, Roland Barthes argues that a certain shared type of literary and cultural education became a key part of the prosecution's case against a man accused of murder in post-War France. The prosecution, said Barthes, relied entirely upon the kinds of association one would find in certain genres of literature to convert circumstantial evidence into 'proof' of the accused's 'inevitable' thoughts and behaviours. The case of Wong Jack Man has similar contours. But there is no courtroom for Wong other than the interminable media myth machine. Perhaps the most we can hope is that Nolfi's 'bio-fic' comes to redeem Wong in the mythical realm.

But, we have to wonder, who will them become the new bad-guy? One might suspect, 'Old China', again. Yet, China in 2015/16 is not the same as China in the 1960s, 70s, 80s or even 90s. Reports that in researching his story Nolfi went to China to research the taiji of Bruce Lee's father are tantalizing in this regard. For, if Nolfi is combining a reworking of the Wong Jack Man Fight Myth with an argument that Lee's 'one inch punch' can be traced back to taiji, then this sends out a clear signal that the film has transnational aspirations. For taiji is, of course, in Adam Frank's words, the very symbol of 'Chinese-ness', in both the PRC and indeed for the rest of the world (Frank 2006) – taiji has long been what Douglas Wile called China's cultural ambassador to the world (Wile 1996).

(In this light, if I were to indulge further in this kind of amateur plot diagnosis, I would be inclined to wager that it seems likely that 'the bad element' to be purged in the forthcoming bio-fic will not be 'old China', but rather the abomination/mutation that is 'China abroad', China unanchored, the China that has left China… And although this is surely going to be the Californian Chinese community, it also sounds a lot like the much reviled 'neither here nor there' China-outside-China that has long been played by Hong Kong.)

To my mind, if the film is set to combine the mythologised fight with a claim that Lee's Jeet Kune Do owes a direct causal debt to traditional taijiquan (in the form of a claim that taiji's 'short power' is the source of Lee's 'one inch punch', for instance), then this attests to the transnational ideological alignment of the Bruce Lee Industry and the dominant ideology of the PRC. Transnational-Lee seems likely to be set to work for both Hollywood orientalism and the huge markets of the PRC – when 'PRC' no longer stands for the 'People's Republic of China' and now refers more to the 'Public Relations of China'.

References

Bowman, Paul. 2013. Beyond Bruce Lee: Chasing the Dragon through Film, Philosophy and Popular Culture. London and New York: Wallflower Press.

Chong, Sylvia Shin Huey. 2012. The Oriental obscene: violence and racial fantasies in the Vietnam era. Durham: Duke University Press.

Frank, Adam. 2006. Taijiquan and the Search for the Little Old Chinese Man: Understanding Identity through Martial Arts. New York and Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan.

Marchetti, Gina. 2006. From Tian'anmen to Times Square: Transnational China and the Chinese Diaspora on Global Screens, 1989-1997. Philadelphia: Temple University Press.

Morris, Meaghan. 2001. "Learning from Bruce Lee." In Keyframes: Popular Cinema and Cultural Studies, edited by Matthew Tinkcom, and Villarejo, Amy, 171-184. London: Routledge.

Wile, Douglas. 1996. Lost T'ai Chi Classics of the Late Ch'ing Dynasty. New York: State University of New York.

For more, see Birth-of-the-Dragon (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67701-Birth-of-the-Dragon) & Martial-Arts-Studies-Disrupting-Disciplinary-Boundaries-by-Paul-Bowman (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69140-Martial-Arts-Studies-Disrupting-Disciplinary-Boundaries-by-Paul-Bowman)

mickey

12-15-2015, 07:55 PM

Greetings,

I think Bruce made his peace with his match with Wong jack Man while he was alive; case in point, did anyone notice that the choreography in the opening match in Enter the Dragon was more than 95% Northern Shaolin?

mickey

bawang

12-17-2015, 04:29 AM

once upon a time it was still segregation and color folk were still treated badly, chinatown was a slum with terrible poverty. bruce lee was rich and had white blood and acted arrogant looking down on them. he wanted to teach kung fu but didnt learn a proper style and started challenging people. then a starving skinny restaurant waiter challenge him to fight. he wailed on his head but couldnt knock him out and the guy was back to work the next day, bruce lee complained his hands hurt. then he get his dad to help him into the movie business. white people watch his movie then make high pitched noise at asian people until the late 90s. the end.

-N-

12-17-2015, 07:16 AM

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-23-2015, 02:23 AM

IronWeasel

12-23-2015, 06:13 PM

boxerbilly

12-26-2015, 07:03 PM

bawang

12-28-2015, 12:31 PM

Bawang does have one white friend recall, so don't get to mad at him for sounding like a racist cu--nt.

i havent mentioned any race with negative accusations so you are actually the racist here.

Mor Sao

12-29-2015, 07:17 PM

Bruce Lee is dead buried and rotten.

Leave him there.

He was not as good as he thought he was.

Jackie Chan still going strong after breaking many more bones than Bruce.

Sammo Hung is still going strong, Bruce is dead, buried and rotten.

Chuck Norris is still going strong.

Even fahking Bob Wall, is still alive.

Bruce is not.

Hence, Bruce' Kung Fu skills were not good.

boxerbilly

12-29-2015, 10:07 PM

i havent mentioned any race with negative accusations so you are actually the racist here.

BULL-----. " bruce lee was rich and had white blood and acted arrogant looking down on them."

So what exactly was the point of pointing out Lee was part white ? Was that just to bring the rest of us up to speed he was not pure blood Chinese thus somehow inferior or was it he felt superior because he had white blood , and that was the point you were trying to make ? Perhaps you mean both ?

And I am fairly ****---ing certain it was he that was looked down of for that and not the other way around. If he was ****y it was because he was BRUCE LEE and yeah, being part white was part of Bruce Lee !

edit, anyway dude. Make some white friends. We aint all bad. This is not the first time I see you write WHITE this or that like it is a bad thing. **** if I will bow down and accept that because because some numbnuts all of a sudden believe it is politically incorrect to be white. WTF ? I AM WHITE ! I am also Indian. I am PROUD to be WHITE ! PROUD I TELL YOU.

Does that make me a racisit ?

Jimbo

12-30-2015, 02:50 PM

I never heard of Bruce Lee talking much, if at all, about his part German heritage. His mom was half-German, so he was only a quarter German. But he always *seemed* to identify with being Chinese. And of course, here in the States he would have been identified as Chinese by non-Asians. I have heard that when some of Yip Man's other students found out that BL had some white blood, they used that to get Yip Man to expel BL from the school. Because (supposedly) Yip Man would not teach foreigners.

TBH, I've known several "full-blooded" Asians who look more "mixed" than BL did. And if you see photos of BL's siblings, they look even less mixed than BL, yet they were also quarter German.

BL was very c0cky, but so are a LOT of MAists, especially young guys, and some not so young, too. I can't count the number of arrogant people I've met in MA over the years. BL was just more famous, and probably more outgoing/outspoken than most. He was also really young. He probably would've changed if he'd gotten older.

But let's be clear: EVERYONE is mixed-blooded. Otherwise, every human being would have flippers instead of hands and legs.

boxerbilly

12-30-2015, 03:40 PM

But let's be clear: EVERYONE is mixed-blooded. Otherwise, every human being would have flippers instead of hands and legs.

Ahmen to that.

I know I am a mutt.

It is fine to be proud of your heritage and forefathers. I am. Most of mine happen to come from White Anglo countries. But we do not need to look down on others different.

Anyway Bawang, not mad at you in the least. Just pointing out, you do this in your writing buddy. You got some issues with white people, LOL.

The white devil. Load of crap. Man, I suffer, pay and serve the same sentence as anyone of any color. People confuse class for color. Or some white cop ( any cop could do it though) does something racist. All of a sudden white people are bad ? Or white people get all the breaks ? Please tell me where to apply. I have yet to find that organization. Man, I looked !

It's all good. Just old ugly crap we all got taught and it was a bunch of crap to divide us. Used for millenniums by those with power. THINK !

MightyB

12-30-2015, 08:30 PM

It wasn't the white part he was criticizing. Bawang is mostly racist towards Chinese people.

bawang

12-30-2015, 11:56 PM

Anyway Bawang, not mad at you in the least. Just pointing out, you do this in your writing buddy. You got some issues with white people, LOL.

you bugged me for online free kung fu coaching. i gave you starting part of shaolin temple iron fist training and you got disappointed because it was knuckle pushups and whined and nitpicked like an old hag nagging at farmers market for 3 fukin hours with like 15 emails. then you said you did some weird kenpo sh1t. then you said you would dutifully report back on your progress. i did this all with the full knowledge you were a small town hilly billy up to the point where you reveal you didnt even train kung fu.

bruce lee lived in one of the poorest and most discriminated areas in the 60s and he showed zero respect while coming from a priviledge background. this led to him being ostracized by chinatown kung fu community. this is fact. he never learned real kung fu and taught americans made up kung fu improvised from savate and fencing and cha cha dance, and they believed him because of his race. also fact

now if you were feeling uncomfortable about race being mentioned, thus breaking the autistic trance of the online oriental warrior fantasy world mental masterbation, that would be understandable for small town folks. but you went full hilly billy patriotic meltdown and unleashed all that corny white nationalist double speak with the 14 words on the tip of your toungue, claim 1/3563th cherokee , you dont even train kung fu, and you tried to play me for a sucker and give you free kung fu coaching. you need to fuk off and get new hobbies like finger painting