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PHILBERT
07-30-2001, 05:13 AM
Ok, first off, I don't give a flip who won or who lost this fight. Or if I spelled the name right. All I want to know is if anyone knows where I can find the story of there battle? I heard that in the book by Linda Lee she describes it, but I couldn't find anything in the book (I flipped through it a few times and there is no index). If you know the page/chapter or an online source, please tell. Like I said, I don't care if Bruce won or Won Jack won. I just wanted to read the story of the fight and history of Won Jack Man. Thanks.

PHILBERT

wufupaul
07-30-2001, 05:30 PM
Just click on the search button on the top of the screen, there have been tons of posts showing both sides.

"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"-Arnold Schwarzenegger

DragonzRage
08-05-2001, 09:17 PM
Enjoy!

"By reports of onlookers, the fight was anything but smooth, fast, or efficient. After a scrappy exchange Wong turned to run and his entourage tried to step in, but they were intercepted by James Lee. Bruce went after Wong, punching him on the back of the head, but was unable to land a finishing shot.
As Bruce later told Dan Inosanto,
'I chased him and, like a fool kept punching his head and back; my fists were already swelling from his hard head. Then I did something I'd never done before: I just put my arm round his neck and knocked him on his ass. I kept whacking him as he lay on the floor-until he gave up. I was so tired I could hardly punch him!'
Linda found Bruce cooling off on the back porch, looking despondent and anything but satisfied with his victory. Bruce was deeply annoyed that what should have taken a few seconds had taken over three minutes, keaving him winded and facing the fact that he was in less than optimum condition. In public, Bruce admitted to no faults, but in private he was mercilessly self critical."

Wongsifu
08-06-2001, 02:14 AM
dragon raze congrats on starting the flame war lol
phil dont listen it didnt happen like that linda lee even admitted in he later interview that bruce looked to be losing the fight

I AM THE OFFICIAL KUNG FU TROLL FROM NOW UNTIL I GET BANNED AHAHAHAHHA...MWAHAHAHAHAH.HEHEHEHE <insert evil laugh here>

DragonzRage
08-06-2001, 10:27 AM
Wong"sifu",

I never said that this is definitely the way it happened. I wasn't there so I don't know (and I don't care either). Here is his original question since you seem to have A.D.D.-

"All I want to know is if anyone knows where I can find the story of there battle? I heard that in the book by Linda Lee she describes it, but I couldn't find anything in the book (I flipped through it a few times and there is no index). If you know the page/chapter or an online source, please tell."

So I just thought I'd be a friendly fellow forum member and quote an account of the fight for him. So how is that starting a flame war? I don't know if that is the way it really happened. My question is how the hell do you know it wasn't?? Were you there?

Oh, and can you give me an actual cited source I could look at to see where Linda Lee EVER recanted her version of the story and was quoted as saying that Bruce was actually losing the fight? Stop making crap up! I've read Wong's account of the fight on some webpage awhile ago (I don't remember which page it was or I would've included it in my last post). But in my personal opinion, some of what Wong said sounds like BS. For one thing, he said that he refused to use his devastating kicks and certain other tactics because he didn't want to kill Bruce. LOL, gimme a friggin' break!

NorthernShaolin
08-07-2001, 03:45 AM
Dragonzraze,

So one sided...open your mind. To know the truth, go visit Sifu Wong Jack in San Francisco and then decide for yourself. Reading stuff by a family member is always open to opinions and slanted to one side.

Many have visited him and walk away knowing the truth without discussing the fight. Try it and maybe you learn something new before you open your mouth and start flaming others.

DragonzRage
08-07-2001, 08:34 PM
NorthernShaolin,
When did I ever flame anyone? All I did was quote one account of the fight. I don't know what really happened and I don't care. But I have certain opinions about it based on my own logic and everything I've heard (not from being "one-sided") and I have a very open mind.

"To know the truth, go visit Sifu Wong Jack in San Francisco..."

"Many have visited him and walk away knowing the truth without discussing the fight"

No offense, but listen to yourself...you seem to sound pretty one-sided to me. So I guess you're saying that considering Linda Lee's account of what happened is unreliable BUT visit Sifu Wong and then you'll know the truth?? Buddy, you and I both don't know the truth and I don't care what you think about Wong Jack Man or Bruce Lee...unless you were there you cannot say what was true and what wasn't.

Some of the other claims Wong's side has made are that the fight actually lasted 20-25 minutes and that the fight was stopped not because there was any real winner but because one of them or both of them were fatigued. Also that it was not an issue about teaching Americans but simply a case of Wong stepping up to defend traditional kung fu after hearing Bruce talk trash about it. All this seems quite plausible to me and maybe it is true. But when Wong starts implying that he could've killed or put Lee down hard any minute if he wanted to (but chose not to), that's when I start smelling something funny. Not that I really care, but from everything I've heard, here is what I personally believe about that fight:
1) I don't know if Bruce Lee won or not
2) Both Linda Lee and Wong Jack Man have not told the whole truth
3) It was a badly fought, sloppy fight and did more to reveal a lack of sufficient skill in both fighters than it did to decide who was better

As for Wong himself, I have no bias towards him in any way. I know that he has a good reputation, although I don't think he's done a lot to indicate how good he really is as a fighter. However, I do respect the fact that several of his students have been good san shou fighters and that they've established a good fighting team in the san shou circuit. This is all my opinion and I'm sticking to it. If you think its a flame, I think you're being overly sensitive to kung fu criticism.

apoweyn
08-07-2001, 09:19 PM
This is idiotic. DragonzRage provided relevant printed information, without making any claims to its accuracy or to his personal stance on the issue. He just provided the information, even being good enough to cite the source.

For crying out loud, stop trying to accuse him of something.


Stuart B.

rogue
08-08-2001, 04:05 AM
As Bruce later told Dan Inosanto,
'I chased him and, like a fool kept punching his head and back; my fists were already swelling from his hard head. Then I did something I'd never done before: I just put my arm round his neck and knocked him on his ass. I kept whacking him as he lay on the floor-until he gave up. I was so tired I could hardly punch him!'

Would it be safe to say that BL knew next to nothing about WC?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

http://rongos.com/funny****/Image15.jpg

PHILBERT
08-08-2001, 06:09 AM
Thank you wufupaul
Thank you DragonzRage
Thank you Apoweyn

You guys, from what I could tell, have actually read my post originally. I clearly stated I did not give a **** who won or lost the fight. I could care less.


I just wanted to know the story, and DragonzRage actually told me from the book. I actually in my post asked where it was in the book and he was kind enough, very kind, to post the exerpt from the book.

I thank wufupaul for telling me to search for it, I did and found alot of useful information to past flames.

I thank Apoweyn for defending DragonzRage because of how he posted the book's words and cited it.

PHILBERT

DragonzRage
08-08-2001, 08:40 PM
EXACTLY, Apoweyn! Thank you. I don't blame people for believing in their styles and the teachers who they respect, but some just get too overzealous and sensitive about these issues.

Philbert,
No problem buddy. I'm sometimes reluctant to post anything about this topic, or anything Bruce related because as you can see, it causes a certain amount of pointless controversy. But I'm glad as long as you got something out of it.

apoweyn
08-08-2001, 11:50 PM
No worries, fellas.


Stuart B.

azwingchun
08-10-2001, 06:05 AM
I can't remeber the actual site, though I did read a little different story by Hawkins Cheung. It wasn't as glamorous for Bruce Lee as we've read or heard about. I believe it had said that their were rules where the other guy wasn't allowed to kick. It's been awhile since I read it.

Sharky
08-11-2001, 01:23 AM
good point rouge. everyone listen to rouge. he is "nice".

Edd

My anus is superior™

rogue
08-11-2001, 03:34 AM
Yo Sharky, is that your picture in your profile? If it is you look "nice" too. :D


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Sharky
08-12-2001, 05:05 AM
Of course it's me, honey

My anus is superior™

soy
08-23-2001, 05:47 AM
my teacher (daniel carr) was a student of wong jack man. My schools website has a lot of information on it. I'm not really sure if it's biased or not, I havent read it in a long time. But it gives you a good idea of what happened.

www.lakungfu.com (http://www.lakungfu.com)

curtis
09-22-2001, 03:46 AM
Jesse Glover (Bruce Lee's first student)was there at the fight.or buy his book. (bruce lee between wing chun and Jeet Kune Do.) the book is the verry best book on bruce lee Ive ever read.

dont take third hand info. even sifu Dan got his info ten years after the fact.Jesse was there! GET HIS STORY, I belive him,he has no reasion to lie,unlike others.
sincerely
C.A.G.

PHILBERT
09-26-2001, 09:18 PM
Let this thread DIE!!!

Ok, I don't want anyone who was friends with just Lee or friends with just Wong Jack. Why? Well, Lee's friends will side with Lee's story. And Wong Jack's men will side with his story. You want a person who witnessed the fight, but was there just to watch and not saying "Go Bruce!" or "Go Wong Jack Man!"

PHILBERT

curtis
10-01-2001, 11:12 AM
Jessie WAS THERE!
my sugestion for you is, dont call a man a lier,until you can prove it.
C.A.G.

PlasticSquirrel
10-02-2001, 08:20 PM
http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

i quote a few lines from the article:

"In response to Lee’s interview, Wong wrote a detailed description of the fight which concluded with an open invitation to Lee to meet him for a public bout if Lee was not satisfied with Wong’s account. Wong’s version of the fight, along with the challenge, was run as the top story on the front page of San Francisco’s Chinese language Chinese Pacific Weekly. But Bruce Lee, despite his reputation for responding with fists of fury to the slightest provocation, remained silent."

"Though William Chen’s recollections of the fight are more vague than the other two accounts, they are more in alignment with Wong’s than Lee’s. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, like Wong, remembers the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." Also, he cannot recall either man being knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a ‘state of demoralization.’""

(you would've thought that someone would remember something like that)

"So by Linda Lee’s account, her husband had suddenly found himself in a position no less heroic than of having to defend, possibly to the death, the right to teach Caucasians the ancient Chinese fighting secrets. It is a notion that Wong finds ridiculous."

"Far from attempting to keep kung fu secret and exclusive, Wong observes that his was the first school in San Francisco’s Chinatown to operate with open doors. That the other kung fu schools then in existence conducted classes behind locked doors was due more to the instructor’s fears of being challenged, say Wong, than to a refusal to teach Caucasians. Once Caucasians became interested in kung fu, it would be Wong who would train some of the best of them, including Ralston and several other leading West Coast instructors. And all of these students of Wong who currently teaches at San Francisco’s Fort Mason Center would be taught for a monthly fee amounting to a fraction of the hourly rate (in some cases $500) charged by the man who allegedly fought for the right to teach them."

"Ming Lum, who was then a San Francisco martial arts promoter, says he did not attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong, and feared that a battle between them would end in serious injury, maybe even death. "Who," he asks, "would have stopped them?" But Lum did see Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, where the young grand master earned his living as a waiter (he had, in fact, worked a full shift at the busy Chinatown restaurant the previous day before fighting Lee). And Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong says was inflicted when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake."

""Some people say Bruce Lee beat up Jack Man bad," note Lum. "But if he had, the man would not have been to work the next day." By Lum’s assessment, the fact that neither man suffered serious injury in a no-holds-barred battle indicates that both were "very, very good." Both men were no doubt, very, very, good. But Wong, after the fight, felt compelled to assert, boldly and publicly, that he was the better of the two. He did so, he says, only because Lee violated their agreement to not discuss the fight."

i think we all need to re-assess linda lee's account of the fight. i did, and it seemed totally unrealistic and almost cartoonish. no chinese would ever make someone close down their school because of a match. it's all for reputation. the guys with the best reputation have the most profitable schools.

LEGEND
10-02-2001, 08:23 PM
Anyone ever heard of a fight lasting 20 to 25 mins??? Were they fighting ROUNDS??? Laughable.

A

PHILBERT
10-02-2001, 11:06 PM
Ok, one last question. Anyone know where I can find a photo of him? New and old? Because I don't know how to portray him in my mind (was he really buff? Kind of chunky? Scrawny? Hairy?) I just wonder now what he looks like.

PHILBERT

PlasticSquirrel
10-03-2001, 12:41 AM
says in the article wong was 135 lbs, 5'10, 24 years old. must've been thin, agile, and muscular to be able to do northern shaolin. chinese people have a tendency to be pretty clean-cut, and not many of them hairy, so that's how i view him.

bruce lee was also 24, but shorter and heavier.

a picture would be nice. i don't like the way they put him in that movie, dragon: the bruce lee story. they made it look like the people in chinatown were shadowy bigots. then, of course, he is also viewed as being older, shorter, stocky. overall, evil-looking. from what i've heard about wong, he was the opposite. thinner than bruce, taller, and an honest, hard worker.

bruce, on the other hand, as is evident in his writing, was a bit on the arrogant and proud side. he was involved in gangs in hong kong, and only practiced his system for two or three years. instead of realizing that his opponent had bested him through pure skill, he took it out on his system, even though wing chun is an incredibly effective style. what can you expect when you've only learned in a school for two or three years? wong had probably trained for many, many years, as is customary in china.

-------------------
jkd is an attitude and a concept of refinement. it has been used by every past master of kungfu. if someone thought that only some techniques were effective, he would modify, add to, or delete parts of his system. by the 1900's, though, it became customary to keep the systems intact, because they weren't needed for immediate use like they used to be. my point: kung fu isn't as staunch and traditional as many people would make it out to be. what does this paragraph have to do with this thread? nothing, but i thought i would add it in, since i don't visit the jkd forum that often. ;)
-------------------

Nutt'nhunny
10-06-2001, 09:28 PM
yeah and the two of them together would get clobbered by tank abbot.

Andreas
10-16-2001, 08:30 AM
Lee was making a tactical mistake. He was chasing his opponent which is not common to Wing Chun men. Wong Jack Man, though never being a true threat to Lee, ran all the way back, taking away much of the effect of Lee's punches.

Lee didn't claim clear or easy victory. He won by putting down his opponent, therefore not as easy or the way he might have wanted. He would have like to win with a few punches. After that he had the feeling that he had not won the fight which he told to a friend.

Jesse Glover wasn't present at the fight. He was called by Lee after that and he told him about this story. Another thing which Lee later told to Jesse was that he visited Wong Jack Man in a chinese restaurant, because he was talking b.s. about their fight. WJM worked there as a waiter, and seeing Lee scared him so much that he overfloured his cup of tea. Lee had made his point, left the restaurant, and there was nothing to hear from WJM for a long time.

Well so much years later, I think WJM is sure that Bruce Lee and the witness James Yimm Lee won't coming back from their graves, and the story continues.

You have to know, the chinese Kung Fu community of San Francisco was terrified by Bruce- Bruce Lee wasn't all the time a nice guy, especially not when he had fakes in front of him who claimed to be better than they really were. That's what his Oakland student Howard Williams experienced while being a member of the Oakland school from 1965 to 1970. One time Lee told to his other Oakland student Leo Fong: "Why do you deal with all this lousy Gung Fu guys here? You already have the ultimate art: boxing. Add a few kicks and you're fine".

I guess you all know the chinese concept of saving face. From this point we can understand what WJM and maybe other classical Gung Fu guys are talking now about Lee.

[This message was edited by Andreas on 10-16-01 at 11:46 PM.]

curtis
10-16-2001, 11:07 AM
I heared from Jessie him self,( that He was Bruce's second and he was there! and did see the hole thing!)


Who ever said Jessie wasnt there will have to talk to Jessie,he not only said he was there,(personaly to me.) he also wrote about it in his book.
BE CAREFULL MY FRIND. JESSIE IS STILL ALIVE!and just might take offence to being called a Lier.

as far as the rest of your message,preaty much gos with what ive heared.
C.A.G.

Andreas
10-16-2001, 12:00 PM
I'm honored to can call Jesse Glover a friend of mine. We write to each other from time to time, and he adviced me to translate his books in german.

I recommand to read Jesse's books more carefully. He was the second and referee in the fight of Bruce Lee vs. the Karateka in Seattle's YMCA. Bruce told him about the Wong Jack Man incident after it happened. You can read this also in his books. Witness of the fight were James Yimm Lee and Linda Lee.

Andreas

curtis
10-16-2001, 12:32 PM
I was going over my notes, and...I was wrong,I confused my infomation on TWO different fights.
please forgive me, Ive made a grave mistake.
C.A.G.

Andreas
10-16-2001, 06:35 PM
No problem!!

Andreas

rogue
10-17-2001, 04:53 AM
Good lord, get a life guys. Lee is dead, nobody knows what happened there or isn't telling. The Chinese community was afraid of Lee, even after he couldn't beat WJM?

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

LEGEND
10-18-2001, 04:16 PM
The problem with the story is transparent...I don't know of any fight lasting 25 mins??? The way BRUCE and JIMMY LEE described it sounds very approachable...BRUCE had to pin WJM down to finish him. Bruce began the period of JKD from that point...blaming it on the style may have been taken out of context cause in his JKD ideal...it's more to do with the fighter than the style. So maybe wing chun as a whole didn't work for him.

A

Bruce Leeroy
05-01-2005, 11:27 AM
Man, Bruce really did take it WJM, not the other way around as was always reported! Video has no sound and is in black and white, but footage clear. It was apparently recorded by someone who smuggled in a video recorder, as you can see they had it hidden inside of a jacket. You can see Bruce lay into WJM with devastating punches that would have easily knocked out an untrained person, while WJM was trying tiger claw blocks against him. This footage has been presented to the Bruce Lee Foundation for archival and possible release to the public.

http://rapidshare.de/files/1523514/bruceleestreetfight.mpeg.html

neit
05-01-2005, 11:47 AM
haha nice one

David Jamieson
05-01-2005, 11:50 AM
all i get is a webhosting offer...even when i cutr and paste the address.

is this bad link fu? or are you spamming us? or can you link it differently?

Royal Dragon
05-01-2005, 12:49 PM
Go to the bottom of the free web offer, and at the lower right, click "Free Download"

Although it's stupid, you might not want to bother.

David Jamieson
05-01-2005, 01:10 PM
well, i did bother and i have no idea why, that was pretty cheesy.

also, it was not bruce lee, it was some other forgettable chop sockey flick snippet.

:mad:

norther practitioner
05-01-2005, 01:10 PM
That was pretty dumb.

stubbs
05-01-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm not amused. Burn the newbie!!
________
Mini (bmw) (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/Mini_(BMW))

mickey
05-01-2005, 04:22 PM
Greetings,

The funny this is that I do remember reading an article the featured one of the observerd of the fight and they did say that it was filmed. That was the last that I had read about it.

We should ban Bruce Leeroy until he glows.

mickey

Shaolinlueb
05-01-2005, 04:31 PM
ricky oh is a great movie man. i love it.

Anthony
05-01-2005, 07:35 PM
Since we're on the subject, what are your opinions on the Bruce Lee challenge match. Do you believe it or not? Is there any real evidence that I'm not aware of. I ask this only because the whole story never sounded true to me (too much like a movie to be believable). I always thought that it might have been some kind of marketing stunt for himself or to simply emphasize BL's own philosophy about martial arts and teaching foreigners. As with any famous person, everything I read about Bruce Lee seems to be designed for public consumtion rather than discussing the mundane, day to day, things he did. I'm thinking it might be the same here.

David Jamieson
05-01-2005, 07:39 PM
It was a long time ago.

Nobody know what happened except those that were there.

From my point of view, who cares, it's not important.

Zaveesha
05-02-2005, 03:01 AM
direct link http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html about the fight

Vasquez
05-02-2005, 04:15 AM
Tiger claw blocks must be shaolin. It would be good to see the traditional versus the new.

David Jamieson
05-02-2005, 05:26 AM
direct link http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html about the fight


yet another guy who wasn't there cashing in on the rumour. lol

The only people I would be prepared to listen to in regards to this alleged fight are the people who were there.

bruce- dead

wong jack man himself - doesn't care to talk about it apparently.

any other bystander- none have come forward

the rest is mere speculation and conjecture and Bruce's own wife authorized what was apparentlyu an utterly fabricated fib about the event with the turd of a movie starring jason scott lee as Bruce.

anyway, i'm ranting, lol, i can't believe you guys still give a crap about this,it is a non-important event that occured before a lot of you were even born. How does it effect your training today?

SimonM
05-02-2005, 10:57 AM
Agreed KL. About the only thing we can say for sure is that Linda Lee is a lying media *****. However I like to think that WJM would have come off better from the encounter.

Ben Gash
05-03-2005, 04:35 AM
D a m n ! ! ! I agree with Kung Lek :eek:
To be fair to Linda Lee she had sold the rights to her book (which is interesting and WAY different to the film) many years previously, and she had no creative control over the film whatsoever. I think the producer's paid some lip service to her, but 90 percent of that film is pure fantasy.

Fen
01-16-2006, 12:19 PM
The people on WJM side said: that there was some one filming from a twoway mirror.in the back.. "They can here the cam filming. But no film has ever truned up.. I feel Like the news paper in SF china town said : "BL lost" I also feelthe film sayes it. Just for info WJM did not use tiger claw.... only BSL and no kicks.

~Jason

your link is not good....

hskwarrior
01-16-2006, 02:12 PM
the story is true, my gung fu family was involved with that.

however, according to the rules someone was suppposed to close down their school and neither did.

and according to a student of Wong Jack Man's, he won't ever speak about the fight.

basically i've heard what stopped the fight was WJM backing up and tripping over a step.


hsk

Fen
01-16-2006, 04:59 PM
the story is true, my gung fu family was involved with that.

however, according to the rules someone was suppposed to close down their school and neither did.

and according to a student of Wong Jack Man's, he won't ever speak about the fight.

basically i've heard what stopped the fight was WJM backing up and tripping over a step.


hsk

BL with in two months did close down his school and moved out of the bay and droped WC and started the JKD stuff.. WJM did not trip over anything. BL was told to stay down and did so...
WJM dose talk about it but only to a few people... There will be some stuff coming out in the next few years about it all.

~Jason

n.mitch
01-16-2006, 08:30 PM
wasn't dan insanto (spell check) there?
every time you read about it Bruce always won, it was just a scrappy fight, wjm was supposeled running away with Bruce chasing him and punching him in the head.

Fen
01-16-2006, 08:41 PM
LMAO!!! No it was the other way around BL did the the running...

~Jason

n.mitch
01-16-2006, 09:19 PM
Hard to believe from from what you read and the other fights Bruce had, i dont think we will ever know for sure most people involved have political reasons for what they say. Wjm and the chinese didnt want him to teach so they will tell a diferent side to bruce's people.
i have always read that Wjm say they wern't fighting for real that it was just mucking around.
changing his story sounds like he might be writing a book good plublicity. LMFAO.
Bruce was the one why most westerns study martial arts why bad mouth him now let sleeping dogs lie..

SimonM
01-17-2006, 02:33 AM
I remember reading somewhere that WJM was teaching Laowai at the time too. Way I heard tell the reason for the fight was BL talking big about his skills in relation to the others in Chinatown at that time.

Siu Lum Fighter
08-12-2012, 01:23 PM
I just read the article on Leo Fong in the August issue of KF Magazine and, as a former student of Wong Jack Man's, I would like to weigh in on his statements regarding the fight between Bruce Lee and Sifu Wong. I'm usually not one to step on anyone's toes but I just can't allow the misinformation about this match to be perpetuated without a fight.

Bruce was an inspiring figure to Asians and all people around the world and I respect that. But let there be no mistake, as a young man he was a c0cky egomaniac who many people in the traditional martial arts world found difficult to get along with. The real reason the fight happened was not because he was teaching "quilo", but because Bruce was making open challenges to people in the traditional martial arts community. After he landed in San Francisco he went to Grandmaster T.Y. Wong’s school and challenged him. T.Y. Wong knew Bruce Lee’s father and out of respect refused to fight him. Bruce wouldn’t let up though and as he turned to leave he suddenly launched a surprise attack at T.Y. Wong. At that moment T.Y. Wong slapped Bruce in the face and told him to leave. I'm curious as to whether or not Leo Fong has heard of this happening since he supposedly studied under T.Y. Wong in the early 60's. There were witnesses to this event and from what I heard T.Y. Wong’s students were quite angry with Bruce. These were the real reasons why the Chinese martial arts community in San Francisco had it out for him. At that time Bruce was a young upstart with little respect for his elders. It's been said he had issues with his dad so maybe that could have had something to do with it.

Before the challenge match with Wong Jack Man, Bruce had ended up angering David Chin who ran with Wong Jack Man's group which consisted of Brandon Lai, and other extremely skilled kung fu men. This was at Sun Sing Theatre on Grant Street in San Francisco during a demonstration Bruce was putting on. Bruce put out a challenge on stage and said no one could stand up to his fist. This was the kind of immature behavior that constantly got him into trouble and THAT was the reason he was challenged. Not because of this BS concerning racism. That is what Bruce told Linda and it was not the truth. There may have been some of those sentiments within certain circles but it had nothing to do with the challenge letter he received from David Chin. He basically got the letter for being big headed and thinking he could make open challenges in a place with some of the best martial artists in the world. He was a total egomaniac and, according to his ex-girlfriend, Amy Sanbo, he was a "macho pig." She said she felt sorry for Linda when she saw them together in Seattle one time because she knew Bruce was going to be cheating on her left and right (which he did) and Linda would have to put up with all of the "insufferable" things Bruce said.

So why, as Leo states in the article, did Sifu Wong "run" in the initial stages of his match with Bruce? It was because Bruce was acting irrationally and saying no to any rules during the match. He basically said he was going to fight all-out with eye gouges and groin kicks. It was as if he was considering it a death match because he was nervous and his ego was in jeopardy. Traditionally, at the beginning of the fight, opponents are supposed to join hands and jump backwards. With no regard for traditions, Bruce went straight for an eye gouge after he pretended to shake hands. At that moment Wong ducked but not before Bruce nicked him with his finger nail just above his left eye and left a cut. This was seen the next day by Grandmaster Ming Lum himself and it was the only injury that could be seen on all of Wong's face or body. Right after Bruce struck he kept going for the eyes in earnest. Being surprised at this onslaught of potentially lethal strikes, Wong back pedaled to keep his distance. It was for this reason that Wong’s people wanted to jump in and stop the fight initially. Unlike how it was characterized by Bruce, the match continued in earnest between both of them.

Would David Chin have said he felt it “went both ways” in the KF Magazine article he was featured in if Bruce had been chasing Wong around the room and threw him to the ground? Let me ask all of you, who should be considered as having more integrity when it comes to judging the outcome of a challenge match, a grandmaster like David Chin and the Tai Chi master William Chen or Linda Lee Caldwell, who’s NOT a professional martial artist and who’s been trying to capitalize on her former husbands fame as much as she possibly can? And, in my opinion, the only reason it “went both ways” was because Wong was obviously holding back.

That brings me to another inaccuracy in Leo Fong's statements. He said there were 10 of Wong's students there and Bruce told him to tell all of his students that he had been beaten. Where did he get this from? David Chin has never said there were that many and Tai Chi master William Chen, who was also there, said there were 5 of them. I believe it’s been said that they drove over in one car from San Francisco. Whatever the case, it’s yet more inaccurate information that’s been put out there by those profiting off of Bruce Lee’s legacy.

Basically, when it comes to whether or not Wong said, “I give up,” someone is lying. And I know for certain it’s not Sifu Wong. Wong Jack Man was a devout practitioner of martial ethics and wu de. Let me ask you, who is more likely to lie, a grandmaster who had been involved in upholding the traditions of the TCMA community, or an egotistical child actor turned street punk who kept getting kicked out of school for fighting and who had to be deported for being a colossal troublemaker? Really? So we’re going to believe the guy who ran with a street gang and got into all sorts of trouble over the guy who devoted himself to upholding the highest virtues of TCMA culture? And why did certain elements of the story change? Linda Lee said in her book, “Bruce Lee: The Man Only I Knew,” that Bruce began pounding him into a state of demoralization on the floor, but in an interview Bruce said he got some “kung fu cat" down to the ground and held his fist over him and got him to say, “I give up”. Which one was it? If Wong were beaten the way Linda had it portrayed in that farce of a movie, “Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story,” then why did Ming Lum see no injuries except for a slight scratch? What, was Ming Lum lying now? Let’s face it, Bruce Lee lied to his friends and students in order to save face and look good. They probably would have sought lessons from Wong if they had found out what really happened.

The real reason the match ended was because Bruce was too winded to continue. He always knew he got schooled in that fight and it was the main reason Bruce completely changed up his style. Everyone likes to point out that he was already modifying Yip Man’s Wing Chun (even though he hadn’t even finished the whole curriculum), but he hadn’t gone to an almost complete emphasis on boxing and fencing until immediately after that fight. That’s something Leo Fong himself has confirmed. And has Leo ever thought to ask himself why? Seriously, why would anyone almost completely change their style after winning a fight? Wong was a known grandmaster. It should have been a great victory for Bruce not an epiphany on how much he sucked and needed to change his style.

WangBazi
08-12-2012, 01:37 PM
yeah we know.

Bruce Lee was a child actor/punk who went back into film. He went out the way fools do, with drugs in his system and funky whoore stench wafting off his groin.

Of course Wong Jack Man went easy on him because Bruce was an idiot.

His followers are idiots too. All of them. No foundation and they do a crappy version of wing chun which is a peasant version of snake style kung fu.

Wow..he was the greatest martial artist of his time..he was on TV! Yep, he and David Caradine. At least Bruce didn't go out like Caradine. But if he was alive today he might have ended up in the same way. Getting the Jean-Benet while jerking to some preteen tranny.

WangBazi
08-12-2012, 01:46 PM
Linda Lee= not very hot.

Probably got him easier citizenship and at the time it would have given him street cred to get a white wimmins.

I understand that he would be sleeping around, still his genes were weak. Proof is from Brandon Lee. Didn't check a gun someone was going to shoot at him. Also he sucked at kung fu.

Anyway, these people are about as revelant today as Tracy Lourdes or some other 70's porno acress.

Fan Shao Huang is current. Thats where its at. He was the Northern guy in Yip Man.

Donnie Yen was good, now he's a **** and I hate him.

pazman
08-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Probably got him easier citizenship and at the time it would have given him street cred to get a white wimmins.


Bruce Lee was an American.

WangBazi
08-12-2012, 02:03 PM
Good point.


He was a **** like Donnie Yen. Probably for the same reason.


Both American movie stars.


Horrible people.

ginosifu
08-12-2012, 04:15 PM
My Sigung Kwong Wing Lam, stated he was in San Fran during this period. He stated that Bruce was not that great of a fighter... he danced around a lot. But nothing special.

ginosifu

bawang
08-12-2012, 05:35 PM
the only sympathy i have with bruce lee was how he desperately wanted the attention and approval, how he wanted to be accepted by white men, and lived a life of loneliness.

after so many years, all his accomplishments are summarized by americans as a high pitched monkey scream. a life in vain, like a brief daydream, swept away by the wind. yet nothing has changed under the sun.

David Jamieson
08-13-2012, 05:23 AM
the only sympathy i have with bruce lee was how he desperately wanted the attention and approval, how he wanted to be accepted by white men, and lived a life of loneliness.

after so many years, all his accomplishments are summarized by americans as a high pitched monkey scream. a life in vain, like a brief daydream, swept away by the wind. yet nothing has changed under the sun.

Crikey, you are almost at enlightenment man!
A few more sessions of naval gazing and boom!

friggin zen mastery!

mickey
08-13-2012, 05:36 AM
David,

I was going to say something to bawang about his post because it bordered on the poetic. I decided not to because, judging from his posts, he walks around with one swollen head already. There is absolutely no need to have him around here walking with two swollen heads.

mickey

goju
08-13-2012, 08:09 AM
the only thing that seems to be clear is that it wasnt a particularly impressive fight from either men and people keep bringing up a bunch of nonsense that can be proven

lets just agree it looked like this and be done with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBYtyw6FDY

:D

Bacon
08-13-2012, 10:43 PM
He was a movie star. If someone told me Jet Li had a bad fit at some point my only response would be... So what?

mickey
08-14-2012, 01:47 PM
Greetings,

I do remember reading in either Black Belt or IKF that this event was filmed.


mickey

doug maverick
08-14-2012, 02:29 PM
i'm reading this and thinking...why are their so many comments on bruce's personal life, lets be honest, if it wasnt for bruce martial arts would not be as popular as it is today, who knows if there would have been a kung fu magazine forums or kung fu online before that... you wouldnt have a forum to yak about bullsh!t...give the man some respect...you want to talk about the wong jack man fight, fine, but leave his personal life and especially his wife and kids out of it... i feel ashamed for you all.

bawang
08-14-2012, 02:32 PM
lets be honest, if it wasnt for bruce martial arts would not be as popular as it is today

and look where we are now, brother. look where we are now.


i got no respect for no one testicled, steroid taking, big headed, weird talking, screeching, lying, self hating former child actor , cold eyed, cold hearted rich hong kong boy.

WangBazi
08-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Bruce Lee created JKD facgs. They are annoying as hell.

Without Bruce Lee, no one would have heard of Wing Chun.


The world would be a much better place without wing chun and its retawded cousin JKD.


Kung fu was already in America. Bruce Lee acted like Mohamed Ali to get attention.

You know who else does that? Emin Boztepe.

What if Shuai Chiao or Bagua had come onto the scene first? Then where would we be? Who knows.

But I don't care about Bruce Lee. At one time I idolized him, then I grew up. It seems that a lot of people failed to do that.

bawang
08-14-2012, 02:53 PM
Bruce Lee created JKD facgs. They are annoying as hell.

Without Bruce Lee, no one would have heard of Wing Chun.



wing chun is river prostitute self defence taught by a handful of skinny opium smokers. now its the most popular kung fu style in the WORLD. this is the greatest injustice, great CRIME bruce lee has comiited upon the world. he hijacked kung fu. he twisted kung fu. he RAPED kung fu.

WangBazi
08-14-2012, 02:58 PM
Southern river prostitutes are great. They have good skin because of the humidity and are very lithe.


Dongbei hookers have sandpaper faces and moan like mens lifting weights.

Faruq
08-14-2012, 03:10 PM
wing chun is river prostitute self defence taught by a handful of skinny opium smokers. now its the most popular kung fu style in the WORLD. this is the greatest injustice, great CRIME bruce lee has comiited upon the world. he hijacked kung fu. he twisted kung fu. he RAPED kung fu.

Which style would you have represent gong fu all over the world rather than Wing Chun, Bawang?

doug maverick
08-14-2012, 03:54 PM
Bruce Lee created JKD facgs. They are annoying as hell.

Without Bruce Lee, no one would have heard of Wing Chun.


The world would be a much better place without wing chun and its retawded cousin JKD.


Kung fu was already in America. Bruce Lee acted like Mohamed Ali to get attention.

You know who else does that? Emin Boztepe.

What if Shuai Chiao or Bagua had come onto the scene first? Then where would we be? Who knows.

But I don't care about Bruce Lee. At one time I idolized him, then I grew up. It seems that a lot of people failed to do that.

yes it was in america..but it wasnt what it became, the popularity wasnt there...he brought martial arts as a whole to the for front... martial arts had been america since world war 1... but it wasnt popular till bruce lee came on the scene.. give the man his respect... but my argument was, why are people on here bad mouthing his family?

WangBazi
08-14-2012, 04:24 PM
because they did nothing for the martial arts community besides deify their father.

Jimbo
08-14-2012, 04:35 PM
Actually, Asian martial arts have been here prior to WW1, since the late 1800s or so, though not taught to the general public.

Did Bruce Lee have his shortcomings? Yes. Along with 95% of everyone else; the other 5% are liars.

Bruce Lee might have been c0cky, but he was young, and I've met a lot of MAists that come across every bit as arrogant as BL was reported to have been. I'm sure BL was a lot of things, but he sure as hell wasn't some Hitler type.

I don't worship BL, but I respect that he set out to accomplish goals and did it. If it's so easy, and he was 'only an actor', then I'm sure anybody can do what he did, right? I mean, why not? You can have the $$ and the wimmenz. It should be a lot easier today than it was back then.

No, I do not believe that the WJM fight was as easy for BL as has usually been reported. But it almost certainly wasn't all that spectacular, either. But at this point it's been speculated ad nauseum.

Eric Olson
08-14-2012, 08:05 PM
Perhaps it wasn't a decisive fight because they were equally matched? It's kind of like when two basketball or soccer teams are equally matched and nobody scores. Boring to watch, but it happens.

Lucas
08-14-2012, 08:17 PM
When two tigers meet in the jungle, one dies and the other is maimed.

doug maverick
08-14-2012, 11:12 PM
because they did nothing for the martial arts community besides deify their father.

but what does that have to do with wong jack man?

Raipizo
08-14-2012, 11:44 PM
All I have to say is who cares. It's a fight big deal. And as for proof unless it was videotaped or something there is no proof. Rumors and stories get passed around all the time. Bruce did bring martial arts into the spotlight in america. He basically created the platform for most kung fu movies even until today. And as for being c0cky, unless you knew him personally you can't say he was, again you have no proof that you are telling the truth or someone that dislikes Bruce lee and just creates lies. This is a fight that happened forever ago who gives a sheet.

Jimbo
08-15-2012, 12:28 AM
All I have to say is who cares. It's a fight big deal. And as for proof unless it was videotaped or something there is no proof. Rumors and stories get passed around all the time. Bruce did bring martial arts into the spotlight in america. He basically created the platform for most kung fu movies even until today. And as for being c0cky, unless you knew him personally you can't say he was, again you have no proof that you are telling the truth or someone that dislikes Bruce lee and just creates lies. This is a fight that happened forever ago who gives a sheet.

I mentioned the alleged c0ckiness because that almost always comes up with criticisms of BL. It seems like it's the "cool" thing to jump on the Bruce Lee Bashwagon on the Internet.

The man obviously had real ability; many great MAists like Inosanto, Lewis, etc., seem to think so. If someone doesn't like BL, great. But the degree of sheer nastiness directed at a man who's been gone for 40 years (a lot longer than most of his most vocal critics have been alive, by the tone of some of the messages) is a sad commentary on people these days.

Drake
08-15-2012, 04:42 AM
You can always tell when someone is badass when people are afraid to talk **** about him until he dies, and even then, they wait a few decades just to be sure.

Eric Olson
08-15-2012, 05:42 AM
You can always tell when someone is badass when people are afraid to talk **** about him until he dies, and even then, they wait a few decades just to be sure.

In case he faked his death? LOL:D

David Jamieson
08-15-2012, 07:06 AM
Was Fong in attendance at the fight?

Raipizo
08-15-2012, 09:35 AM
In case he faked his death? LOL:D

Agreed jimbo, maybe he did fake his death. Maybe it was Bruce Li that died :eek:

NorthernShaolin
08-15-2012, 10:56 AM
Fong was not at the fight. He just finding reasons to mouth off about Wong Sifu in the magazine article because he does not like Wong Sifu for personal reasons.

pazman
08-15-2012, 11:06 AM
Sifu Wong produced students who train and promote Sanda.

Bruce Lee produced hordes of ignorant Chinese teenagers who play numchucks in the park.

I think it's clear who the winner was.

SIFU RON
08-15-2012, 11:06 AM
It is easy to speak of people that are no longer alive, they can't talk back. There are some old Masters that were their and saw this fight, these Masters are WUDE, something people lack, they do not speak of it and never will. I respect them.

It is sad to see the lack of respect and honor displayed by many people today, Martial Artists
should set examples of decency and honor for all to follow.

Fa Xing
08-15-2012, 12:14 PM
Sifu Wong produced students who train and promote Sanda.

Bruce Lee produced hordes of ignorant Chinese teenagers who play numchucks in the park.

I think it's clear who the winner was.

Oh look another ignorant comment from a keyboard warrior. Bruce Lee produced plenty of students who have competed from Kickboxing to MMA, albeit most indirectly through his other students. Although I read that Larry Hartsell, an original Bruce Lee student, was one of the first to fight Muay Thai match in the late 60s. He specifically used Bruce's training methods to do so.

Fa Xing
08-15-2012, 12:18 PM
Bruce Lee created JKD facgs. They are annoying as hell.

Hey b1tch, any time you would to back up that statement in a friendly sparring match in Los Angeles, send me a pm.

bawang
08-15-2012, 12:21 PM
It is easy to speak of people that are no longer alive, they can't talk back. There are some old Masters that were their and saw this fight, these Masters are WUDE, something people lack, they do not speak of it and never will. I respect them.

It is sad to see the lack of respect and honor displayed by many people today, Martial Artists
should set examples of decency and honor for all to follow.

bruce lee can cheat on his wife, sucker punch old men on tv, exagerate fights with restaurant workers. but when he took steroids, he crossed the line man. thats too far.

Fa Xing
08-15-2012, 12:32 PM
bruce lee can cheat on his wife, sucker punch old men on tv, exagerate fights with restaurant workers. but when he took steroids, he crossed the line man. thats too far.

I guess you and Bruce need to have a fight, get the shovels, I'll meet you in Seattle. :D

Fa Xing
08-15-2012, 12:44 PM
It is easy to speak of people that are no longer alive, they can't talk back. There are some old Masters that were their and saw this fight, these Masters are WUDE, something people lack, they do not speak of it and never will. I respect them.

It is sad to see the lack of respect and honor displayed by many people today, Martial Artists
should set examples of decency and honor for all to follow.

It's true, they talk all big on the interwebz but if you were to meet them in person they would be more passfied than a baby with a teet to suck on. It really gets to me, what's the point, the whole thing happened almost 50 years ago. Water under the bridge.

The whole point of the story is not even so much that they fought but that it was a catalyst for Bruce's formation of Jeet Kune Do, and the moment when he decided to fully break from tradition. There were other events as well, before and after this fight.

We will never know what happened, and it's not the point. The OP started well by stating that Bruce was an arrogant youth trying to prove himself, I believe that 100%, most men in their early 20s are like that. However, the bashing was a little tasteless. I would like to say that most of those in the JKD community have never bashed to my recollection the reputation of Wong Jack Man the way his students/followers have towards Bruce Lee and his family and students. It's been over for several decades, you guys are not even on our radar.

That being said, I am always interested in meeting other martial artists, and doing some friendly sparring in LA while I'm on my break from school.

pazman
08-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Oh look another ignorant comment from a keyboard warrior. Bruce Lee produced plenty of students who have competed from Kickboxing to MMA, albeit most indirectly through his other students. Although I read that Larry Hartsell, an original Bruce Lee student, was one of the first to fight Muay Thai match in the late 60s. He specifically used Bruce's training methods to do so.

Internet humor got your panties in a bunch, son.

Now go and practice yer numchucks.;)

bawang
08-15-2012, 12:51 PM
I guess you and Bruce need to have a fight, get the shovels, I'll meet you in Seattle. :D
on my way in my helicopter right now. where you live?

jdhowland
08-15-2012, 01:26 PM
... but when he took steroids, he crossed the line man. thats too far.

No, mang. Steroids and other drugs are the American way of creating strong, heroic men for the public to idolize.

A quote from the man who created some of our heroes:


Like Captain America, Blue Bolt got his powers from an injection, long before the baseball players were doing it. Joe Simon 1913-2011

bawang
08-15-2012, 01:35 PM
No, mang. Steroids and other drugs are the American way of creating strong, heroic men for the public to idolize.

A quote from the man who created some of our heroes:

Joe Simon 1913-2011

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

wenshu
08-15-2012, 02:04 PM
Hah (http://hahgay.com/)

Fa Xing
08-16-2012, 11:50 AM
on my way in my helicopter right now. where you live?

LA, sorry had to meet da wiminz! Lets go!!!

LaterthanNever
08-17-2012, 04:33 PM
According to Jesse, the fight did not go on for minutes and minutes as had been reported..

He should know..he was there after all..(I believe the late Ed Hart was too)

MightyB
08-21-2012, 05:53 AM
Bruce Lee's influence on MMA. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0IGPLXOK_I&feature=player_embedded)

RWilson
08-21-2012, 06:53 AM
I read a chapter in this book about how Bruce met a mantis guy in New York and how he was really impressed by the mantis guy. The story is written from the mantis guy's point of view so we do not know the other side of the story. Brice never wrote about mantis in the books I read so he must have not cared about it much.

hskwarrior
08-21-2012, 08:19 AM
I read a chapter in this book about how Bruce met a mantis guy in New York and how he was really impressed by the mantis guy. The story is written from the mantis guy's point of view so we do not know the other side of the story. Brice never wrote about mantis in the books I read so he must have not cared about it much.

but he DID SAY choy lee fut is one of the most difficult styles to defend or attack against. :D

TenTigers
08-21-2012, 08:25 AM
I read a chapter in this book about how Bruce met a mantis guy in New York and how he was really impressed by the mantis guy. The story is written from the mantis guy's point of view so we do not know the other side of the story. Brice never wrote about mantis in the books I read so he must have not cared about it much.
Actually BL was very influenced by SPM in his tactics, especially on his interception of the opponent's intent, which is a hallmark of SPM.
I read that Dan Inosanto said that BL also never taught certain methods of lop-sao to his students as well.
He apparently held certain stuff back for himself.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 08:39 AM
but he DID SAY choy lee fut is one of the most difficult styles to defend or attack against. :D

Bruce Lee was also one of the Chinese short armed wc midgets I mentioned in nother thread. He was so small. What. Hance did he have against big clf bullies with Buddha palms?

RWilson
08-21-2012, 08:41 AM
Actually BL was very influenced by SPM in his tactics, especially on his interception of the opponent's intent, which is a hallmark of SPM.
I read that Dan Inosanto said that BL also never taught certain methods of lop-sao to his students as well.
He apparently held certain stuff back for himself.

A few of his students commented that he was an ideas kind of guy and NOT a fighter. According to them he never sparred with his students. So his secret lop(wtf?) techniques were wasted because he never actually tested them.

TenTigers
08-21-2012, 08:54 AM
A few of his students commented that he was an ideas kind of guy and NOT a fighter. According to them he never sparred with his students. So his secret lop(wtf?) techniques were wasted because he never actually tested them.
that...is purely conjecture on your part.
as far as him being a fighter, students of his also said that he was a fighter.
The ones who said he wasn't, were guys like Joe Lewis, who learned from BL, then never gave him credit so he can continue to do his seminars and make monies.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 09:22 AM
that...is purely conjecture on your part.
as far as him being a fighter, students of his also said that he was a fighter.
The ones who said he wasn't, were guys like Joe Lewis, who learned from BL, then never gave him credit so he can continue to do his seminars and make monies.

I read it in a book of interviews from some of his students. They said he did not spar.

hskwarrior
08-21-2012, 09:28 AM
Bruce Lee was also one of the Chinese short armed wc midgets I mentioned in nother thread. He was so small. What. Hance did he have against big clf bullies with Buddha palms?

he had zero chance. he talked smack, he got smacked up. he moved out of the bay because of the other side of Choy Lee Fut :D

See, gung fu was secret before bruce exposed it. to the big slow americans, he was indeed fast as hell. but there were people in this secretive world that knew bruce wasn't all that the west made him out to be. some still hold a grudge against him for exposing it like he did.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 09:53 AM
he had zero chance. he talked smack, he got smacked up. he moved out of the bay because of the other side of Choy Lee Fut :D

See, gung fu was secret before bruce exposed it. to the big slow americans, he was indeed fast as hell. but there were people in this secretive world that knew bruce wasn't all that the west made him out to be. some still hold a grudge against him for exposing it like he did.

I am pretty sure he took steroids. What exactly did he expose? You act like Kung foo became bad after getting exposed. With Americans paying money the training should have increased with tons and tons of fighters. Instead you guys decided to cash in as teach forms making them imitate bugs and apes instea of fighting.

Bruce helped make the big Kung foo craze of the 70's happen. That is where all you hippies came from so you should thank him. This whole generation of Kung foo people came from the "Kung fu is so deadly and effective but we do not spar" era. Then can the ninja era of the 80's. The big difference is that the ninjas vanished and went to train in Japan. No one in his right mind would come out and say he studied ninjutsu and that he can fight or worse teach you to fight. You guys, however, never stopped believing in your own ridiculous myths about how deadly Kung foo makes you.

Fa Xing
08-21-2012, 09:56 AM
I read it in a book of interviews from some of his students. They said he did not spar.

Bruce Lee and Ted Wong sparring:

http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/sd2b11860f6c625a9/img/i92db2bf4ef45aaf1/1283975135/std/ted-haciendo-sparring-con-bruce.jpg

I have read many times, that while Bruce was living in LA, that Tuesdays and Thursdays classes took place in Chinatown. While a select few were invited over to Bruce's house wednesday night for sparring, and Saturday for more training. Not sure about the lop sao stuff, I've never heard that before.

In fact, I've read from about every student either through print or word of mouth that he would spar with them regularly and wipe the floor with them.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 10:02 AM
Bruce Lee and Ted Wong sparring:

http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/sd2b11860f6c625a9/img/i92db2bf4ef45aaf1/1283975135/std/ted-haciendo-sparring-con-bruce.jpg

I have read many times, that while Bruce was living in LA, that Tuesdays and Thursdays classes took place in Chinatown. While a select few were invited over to Bruce's house wednesday night for sparring, and Saturday for more training. Not sure about the lop sao stuff, I've never heard that before.

In fact, I've read from about every student either through print or word of mouth that he would spar with them regularly and wipe the floor with them.

You notice Bruce is not wearing a helmet, right? What do you think that means? It means that they were not sparring an just posing for a pic, Bruce was so good he did not need a helmet when sparring. Ted Wong would not be able o swing at him as hard because he has no head protection. If anything it was fake sparring.

Fa Xing
08-21-2012, 10:09 AM
You notice Bruce is not wearing a helmet, right? What do you think that means? It means that they were not sparring an just posing for a pic, Bruce was so good he did not need a helmet when sparring. Ted Wong would not be able o swing at him as hard because he has no head protection. If anything it was fake sparring.

Hahaha, you're clearly an idiot.

http://theskinnyonmyjeans.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/stupidity-3.jpg

Lucas
08-21-2012, 10:11 AM
You notice Bruce is not wearing a helmet, right? What do you think that means? It means that they were not sparring an just posing for a pic, Bruce was so good he did not need a helmet when sparring. Ted Wong would not be able o swing at him as hard because he has no head protection. If anything it was fake sparring.

not saying the guy did or did not spar. but not wearing a helmet doesnt mean ****. i dont wear head protection or anything but gloves or maybe shin guards when sparring noobs. cuz i'm not worried. and i can take a hit if one does get in. actually this is VERY common.

jdhowland
08-21-2012, 10:28 AM
See, gung fu was secret before bruce exposed it. to the big slow americans, he was indeed fast as hell. but there were people in this secretive world that knew bruce wasn't all that the west made him out to be. some still hold a grudge against him for exposing it like he did.


I don't think he exposed anything. Lee knew bits of this 'n' that but he didn't give away anyone's secrets. He was about showmanship.

I had never heard of Bruce Lee when I read that he had died. It made the front page of the newspaper and I thought,"Oh, yeah. The guy who played Kato." But I had already learned from two kung fu teachers from China. They never made me feel that I was learning something secret.

jdhowland
08-21-2012, 10:33 AM
not saying the guy did or did not spar. but not wearing a helmet doesnt mean ****. i dont wear head protection or anything but gloves or maybe shin guards when sparring noobs. cuz i'm not worried. and i can take a hit if one does get in. actually this is VERY common.

Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had.

Lucas
08-21-2012, 11:20 AM
Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had.

so then this information must come from the fact that bruce lee must have sparred and been knocked out on multiple occasions for it to be common knowledge of his peers to know he had a glass jaw. i mean unless the guy went around going 'hey guys i have a glass jaw, i get knocked out easy' the other option is its information gained from witnessing and being involved in knocking the dude out.

Faruq
08-21-2012, 11:31 AM
But what about all these accounts:

"Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[43]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[44] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[45]

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds I know because I was the time keeper and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 2025 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[53]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[54]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[55] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". Bob Wall[56]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

Fa Xing
08-21-2012, 11:33 AM
But what about all these accounts:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

Hence, my last comment.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 11:55 AM
This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything. His friends could be lying or embellishing. I said he never sparred with his students. A fight he might have had as a kid does not mean anything for his grown up training.


The picture does not prove he was sparring at that money. Where are the rest of the connecting pictures? He was an actor. Do you really think he would risk his pretty face and NOT wear a helmet? You are just mad that I am right, Lucas.

Raipizo
08-21-2012, 12:24 PM
Rwilson, is it your duty to post things angled just to annoy people? It seems like it's all you do.

RWilson
08-21-2012, 08:01 PM
Rwilson, is it your duty to post things angled just to annoy people? It seems like it's all you do.

You are annoying me right now so we are even.

Raipizo
08-21-2012, 08:40 PM
You are annoying me right now so we are even.

Great now just let me post Kung fu bashing material on a KUNG FU forum and call me Rwilson :p

Raipizo
08-21-2012, 08:42 PM
But what about all these accounts:

"Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[43]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[44] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[45]

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds I know because I was the time keeper and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 2025 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[53]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[54]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[55] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". Bob Wall[56]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

I heard of some of these but it's still hard to track truth from fact, it's all lost in time.

Lucas
08-21-2012, 10:39 PM
This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything. His friends could be lying or embellishing. I said he never sparred with his students. A fight he might have had as a kid does not mean anything for his grown up training.


The picture does not prove he was sparring at that money. Where are the rest of the connecting pictures? He was an actor. Do you really think he would risk his pretty face and NOT wear a helmet? You are just mad that I am right, Lucas.

We all forget Kung Fu actors---esp in that day were not paid for their faces. They got paid for kungfu. In actuality, in all kungfu movies, there is contact made regularly during fight scenes. I got a pretty face and I hate headgear. :D the actuality is that Bruce wouldn't allow himself to be photographed unless he was looking good at that moment. :eek:

Its OK RWilson, you don't need to feel ashamed here of your mental defeciencies. We accept you for who you are.

David Jamieson
08-22-2012, 07:31 AM
At one time, back in the day in Scotland, people actually believed that William Wallace was 7 feet tall and had fire for hair and dark black eyes that could kill you with a stare.

I believe the memory of Bruce suffers from the same childlike awe.

In the end, what are any of us eh? Dust. :)

Lucas
08-22-2012, 08:24 AM
are you trying to tell me william wallace's hair wasnt made of fire? I know someone whos sisters husbands half brothers uncle that got burned by that hair.

Faruq
08-22-2012, 08:39 AM
But what about all these accounts:

"Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[43]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[44] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[45]

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds I know because I was the time keeper and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 2025 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[53]
Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[54]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[55] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". Bob Wall[56]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

But someone needs to correct the part on the wiki page about it being about him teaching Caucasians and not about him being just an all around jerk!

Siu Lum Fighter
08-22-2012, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Jimbo
Did Bruce Lee have his shortcomings? Yes. Along with 95% of everyone else; the other 5% are liars.

Bruce Lee might have been c0cky, but he was young, and I've met a lot of MAists that come across every bit as arrogant as BL was reported to have been. I'm sure BL was a lot of things, but he sure as hell wasn't some Hitler type.
True enough. I too have known a great many martial artists to be arrogant and conceited. Besides this being an aspect of their personal make-up, it’s usually married to some idea that their style is "superior" to all others. One thing that’s always been bothersome to me about Bruce is that he seemed to be extremely critical of all traditional styles while promoting Jeet Kune Do as new and groundbreaking. Of course when you look at what JKD has become, it even more seems to be a philosophy and not a martial art "style" in the strict sense of the word. It seems so ironic to me that so many traditionalists revere him so much. It’s especially baffling to me why Wing Chun guys love him. He said WC was "insufficient". I don’t get it, why is he such a hero to you guys? He even rubbed Yip Man the wrong way when he tried filming him one time. He should be acknowledged as a non-traditionalist and not really a Wing Chun guy at all if you ask me. Wing Chun eventually became just one of the styles he liked training with and he totally stopped using it for a while after the WJM fight. I guess that won’t stop Bruce being glorified in the new Yip Man movie. I’ve actually liked the Yip Man movie franchise. They should reconsider painting the WJM battle out to be so one-sided like it's been in every other laughable BL bio (they've all sucked). It's been said that Bruce's match with WJM was responsible for the creation of JKD so why not give credit where credit is due?

Originally posted by TenTigers
as far as him being a fighter, students of his also said that he was a fighter.
The ones who said he wasn't, were guys like Joe Lewis, who learned from BL, then never gave him credit so he can continue to do his seminars and make monies.
Joe said that Bruce set him up and asked him to throw a punch at him so Bruce could counter with some technique. After the third try Bruce countered Joe's punch and popped him in the face. All of a sudden Bruce’s students were running around saying Bruce beat Joe in a sparring match. Joe said that he wanted it to be known that he never sparred Bruce Lee and he said, "Now here, this guy's never competed, never been to a swim meet, we've never seen him really swim." He also didn’t like how Bruce wanted to use him as a Caucasian punching bag in "Way of The Dragon". I really feel Joe Lewis had more guts and talent than most of Bruce’s students and he stood on his own as a talented fighter. It was inevitable they were going to butt heads. I do think Bruce could fight though and he had the speed and power to make some really tough guys give him some respect. So I really don’t think everyone should be going on like he totally sucked. If I make it sound like that I guess it’s because I’m extremely annoyed at how he’s always painted out to be "THE GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST OF ALL TIME!":rolleyes: A ridiculous notion and one of the reasons Black Belt Magazine sucks eggs.

Matt_WCK
08-23-2012, 07:31 AM
Its especially baffling to me why Wing Chun guys love him. He said WC was "insufficient". I dont get it, why is he such a hero to you guys? He even rubbed Yip Man the wrong way when he tried filming him one time. He should be acknowledged as a non-traditionalist and not really a Wing Chun guy at all if you ask me. Wing Chun eventually became just one of the styles he liked training with and he totally stopped using it for a while after the WJM fight. .

It's well known that Bruce Lee didn't learn the complete Wing Chun system - in fact he only really learned the basics and some of the dummy work. He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused. If you look at 'JKD Dummy form' it is just the first half of the Wing Chun form. It was this lack of a complete system that drove him to augment from other systems. Ip Chun infered that Bruce Lee created JKD because he would never be a Wing Chun grandmaster and couldn't abide not being the top man.

Bruce Lee is famous for his 'classical mess' expression but he said that after he had already had a classical education. He could eschew forms and the like in favour of more flowing drills because he ALREADY had the fundamentals that the forms and foundation training gave him - something he didn't pass onto his JKD students (their fundamentals came from their own styles).

As for the WJM fight, I've heard varying accounts, as has everyone, but one thing is for sure - it forced Bruce Lee to change his training and that wouldn't happen if he'd won easily. It may have been done to his limited knowledge of Wing Chun but who knows. Any accounts will be biased in favour of the author so cannot be relied upon.

Anyway, Bruce Lee was an actor. Arrogance is a given, usually but equally - they are also driven to succeed as competition is tough.

As for JKD, and this comes from experience training in it as well as Wing Chun, it really isn't a 'style' - more of a set of concepts tied to the techniques of the instructor so the flavour of JKD really varies greatly depending on the background of the instructor - the school I trained in was all boxing/kickboxing with some Kali thrown in. Very little Wing Chun (aside from some of the terminology) survived. JKD was fun but (to me at least) it felt like a bunch of random techniques and drills stitched together.

While I enjoy his films and appreciate his obvious martial arts skills, I don't see him as a Wing Chun man and, in many ways, he was indirectly responsible for many dodgey kung fu schools opening in the 70s teaching the public what they wanted to learn.

Incidentally, when I first started learning Wing Chun, I had no idea that it was Lee's 'mother art' - I chose it for the simple, economical movements and short range power generation as well as being intriguiged by 'blind' fighting. Many cling to the Bruce Lee/Wing Chun connection - possibly due to the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' mentality... a famous connection is still a famous connection.

Ultimately - everyone is entitled to an opinion and, since he has been dead for 40 years, I very much doubt that this argument will go anywhere but round and round in circles.

RWilson
08-23-2012, 07:35 AM
It's well known that Bruce Lee didn't learn the complete Wing Chun system - in fact he only really learned the basics and some of the dummy work. He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused. If you look at 'JKD Dummy form' it is just the first half of the Wing Chun form. It was this lack of a complete system that drove him to augment from other systems. Ip Chun infered that Bruce Lee created JKD because he would never be a Wing Chun grandmaster and couldn't abide not being the top man.

Bruce Lee is famous for his 'classical mess' expression but he said that after he had already had a classical education. He could eschew forms and the like in favour of more flowing drills because he ALREADY had the fundamentals that the forms and foundation training gave him - something he didn't pass onto his JKD students (their fundamentals came from their own styles).

As for the WJM fight, I've heard varying accounts, as has everyone, but one thing is for sure - it forced Bruce Lee to change his training and that wouldn't happen if he'd won easily. It may have been done to his limited knowledge of Wing Chun but who knows. Any accounts will be biased in favour of the author so cannot be relied upon.

Anyway, Bruce Lee was an actor. Arrogance is a given, usually but equally - they are also driven to succeed as competition is tough.

As for JKD, and this comes from experience training in it as well as Wing Chun, it really isn't a 'style' - more of a set of concepts tied to the techniques of the instructor so the flavour of JKD really varies greatly depending on the background of the instructor - the school I trained in was all boxing/kickboxing with some Kali thrown in. Very little Wing Chun (aside from some of the terminology) survived. JKD was fun but (to me at least) it felt like a bunch of random techniques and drills stitched together.

While I enjoy his films and appreciate his obvious martial arts skills, I don't see him as a Wing Chun man and, in many ways, he was indirectly responsible for many dodgey kung fu schools opening in the 70s teaching the public what they wanted to learn.

Incidentally, when I first started learning Wing Chun, I had no idea that it was Lee's 'mother art' - I chose it for the simple, economical movements and short range power generation as well as being intriguiged by 'blind' fighting. Many cling to the Bruce Lee/Wing Chun connection - possibly due to the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' mentality... a famous connection is still a famous connection.

Ultimately - everyone is entitled to an opinion and, since he has been dead for 40 years, I very much doubt that this argument will go anywhere but round and round in circles.

Had he learns the rest of the hand forms and the magical wooden dummy form he still would have sucked because fighting makes you better at fighting. He probably wanted to know the system proper, and have his teacher's blessing, so he cold have a chinese guy and an established system to pad his Resume when he came to America.

Matt_WCK
08-23-2012, 07:55 AM
Had he learns the rest of the hand forms and the magical wooden dummy form he still would have sucked because fighting makes you better at fighting. He probably wanted to know the system proper, and have his teacher's blessing, so he cold have a chinese guy and an established system to pad his Resume when he came to America.

That was actually Bruce Lee's point - fighting makes you better at fighting. It was one of the reasons he moved away from 'classical' kung fu into MMA (which is basically what he did). As for learning the rest of the system - if you only learned 1/3 of the controls of a car and tried to drive you'll probably crash. It's actually a testiment to his skills that he could prove to be a fight for WJM with the little he knew.

LaterthanNever
08-23-2012, 01:52 PM
"He begged Ip Man to teach him the remainder of the dummy form but Ip Man refused"

Supposedly, Ip decided to teach Bruce privately because he(Ip) felt Lee was one of the more talented students and took a liking to him.

LaterthanNever
08-23-2012, 02:10 PM
Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

"James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had. "

Well lets look at some probability for a sec here. The odds of getting hit at least once in a fight are statistically against you(I don't care how good you are). And a well placed shot to the jaw can drop almost anyone. Look at Mike Tyson. Certainly no slouch in the knocking people out department..yet he was also knocked out. I don't know what your motive is here for saying that.

In 1962, Lee was challenged by a man who had been holding a grudge against Lee while the two were practicing at a YMCA in Seattle.[46] The man was described by Jesse Glover as a karate man who also had a blackbelt in judo, though Glover, who was a brown belt in judo at the time, claimed to be better than the man in judo.[46] After weeks[47] or months[48] of provocation by the man, Lee agreed to fight the man for three two-minute rounds, with the winner being the one who knocked the opponent down or out in two out of three rounds.[49] The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds I know because I was the time keeper and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[47"

10 seconds or 11 seconds..does it matter? I trained under Jesse for a time and have met Taky(at Jesses' funeral). I've also met Linda (Lee). None of them seemed like people who would exaggerate.

"Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 2025 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]"

Would it matter if it was 3 minutes vs. 25 minutes?(I'm skeptical about the 25 minute claim. Most fights don't last that long). Lee won the match.

"Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians."

Remember..when you are dead..it's usually for a very long time :rolleyes:
Last I checked..Bruce isn't going to reanimate and climb out of the grave to rebut the claim


"This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything."

I have not gotten that vibe in meeting Linda at all(dishonesty). It must feel good to be a troll from the safety of your laptop ------- miles away from Seattle.(where he is buried). And "if"? If grandma had b-lls..she'd be grandpa!


" His friends could be lying or embellishing."

As could Wong Jack Man or just about anyone! ;)


"I said he never sparred with his students."

Not so

jdhowland
08-23-2012, 02:56 PM
Apparently Bruce couldn't take a hit.

"James deMile told me that Lee had to learn kicking skills and keep his head back because he had a glass jaw. He was exceptionally vulnerable to knockouts. And it's easy to see from pictures what a long neck he had. "

I don't know what your motive is here for saying that.

My motive was simply to add to the dialogue by showing that Lee did spar. The info was from a friend and student who sparred with him. Lee apparently felt a weakness and did something to overcome it. No badmouthing.

Siu Lum Fighter
08-23-2012, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by LaterthanNever
Supposedly, Ip decided to teach Bruce privately because he(Ip) felt Lee was one of the more talented students and took a liking to him.

Um…I’m curious where you heard this because everything I’ve read has pointed out that after Ip’s students didn’t want Bruce training at the school anymore Ip told William Cheung to take him under his wing and teach him privately. Many believe this was because Bruce was part white but it’s known that he didn’t get along with many of the senior students in Ip’s school because, as Matt_WCK pointed out, Bruce couldn’t abide not being the top man. This is how he’s been characterized by virtually everyone who ever knew him.


10 seconds or 11 seconds..does it matter? I trained under Jesse for a time and have met Taky(at Jesses' funeral). I've also met Linda (Lee). None of them seemed like people who would exaggerate.

"Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[44]"

Would it matter if it was 3 minutes vs. 25 minutes?(I'm skeptical about the 25 minute claim. Most fights don't last that long). Lee won the match.

You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didn’t seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are. Bruce Lee said, “To tell you the truth, I can beat anyone in the world!”, and he doesn’t seem like the type of guy who could exaggerate? And don’t forget Jesse Glover wasn’t there so he had nothing to exaggerate about. Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words “I give up”? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so.


"Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[51] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article, nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians."

Remember..when you are dead..it's usually for a very long time
Last I checked..Bruce isn't going to reanimate and climb out of the grave to rebut the claim

"This whole thread started to expose that Londa had lied about the wjm fight. If she lied about that then she could have lied about anything."

I have not gotten that vibe in meeting Linda at all(dishonesty). It must feel good to be a troll from the safety of your laptop ------- miles away from Seattle.(where he is buried). And "if"? If grandma had b-lls..she'd be grandpa!

" His friends could be lying or embellishing."

As could Wong Jack Man or just about anyone!

That’s funny because teaching Caucasians was never really the issue. I don’t know why anyone in the JKD camp would ever keep trying to point this out as the reason the match happened when there’s mountains of circumstantial evidence that shows this to be totally bunk. Here are just a few things to consider:

1. Wong Jack Man trained for years the first Caucasian to ever win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978.
2. For years he trained guys like Brent Hamby (a Caucasian) who was a USAWKF National San Shou champion.
3. He trained Sifu Scott Jenson (another Caucasian) who has been featured in some recent issues of KF Magazine.
4. For a time he also trained me and guess what? I’m Caucasian.

Besides that I saw Wong Sifu’s classes to be made up of white, black, and Chinese students. Once again, there was prejudice against westerners among some people in the Chinese community (understandable considering how Asians were treated back then) but from what I’ve gathered from my discussions with certain people in the SF Chinatown community, it was mainly some of the Choy Lay Fut and Wing Chun masters who felt that way.

Also, it wasn’t long after the arguments Lee had with WJM over the interview and the Chinese Pacific Weekly article that:

1. Lee closed his Oakland school.
2. He moved out of the area.
3. He put down Wing Chun and changed his style.

Why point out that Bruce can’t reanimate to rebut the claims made by Wong when he didn’t rebut them while he was alive? It’s not like he didn’t have years to make a public announcement about it.

LaterthanNever
08-23-2012, 11:16 PM
"You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didnt seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are."

I'm not assuming anything here. I've never met nor spoken with the aforementioned people.


"Bruce Lee said, To tell you the truth, I can beat anyone in the world!, and he doesnt seem like the type of guy who could exaggerate?"

I believe he said "to tell you the truth, I THINK I COULD beat anyone in the world". A bit different.


"And dont forget Jesse Glover wasnt there so he had nothing to exaggerate about. "


I don't know about the other fight..but Jesse WAS there at the Wong Jack Man match! He told me once after class.


"Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words I give up? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so. "

I don't know. My initial feeling would be that the aforementioned people were friends of Wong Jack Man and hence didn't want to corroborate that he lost? Why does this matter?

"UmIm curious where you heard this because everything Ive read has pointed out that after Ips students didnt want Bruce training at the school anymore Ip told William Cheung to take him under his wing and teach him privately."

Most of what I've understood up to this point is that it was the late Wong Shun Leung who taught Bruce in addition to Ip Man. Then of course you have the late Grandmaster Yeung Fook who resided in Seattle who taught Bruce the lesser known "Red Boat Wing Chun". Master Fook taught Bruce for I believe 8 years.


"Many believe this was because Bruce was part white but its known that he didnt get along with many of the senior students in Ips school because, as Matt_WCK pointed out, Bruce couldnt abide not being the top man."

Supposedly Bruce was 1/4 German. But how does one go about proving this anyway? Did Matt_WCK meet Bruce in the flesh? Or Ip Man? Like I said..when yer dead..people can claim whatever they wish. One sifu of William Cheung once came out with an article that said that Bruce left WC beacuse he was "prevented from learning the "secrets" of WC" (which was supposedly only taught to William Cheung)..and I laughed my arse off. Being one of Jesses' students..I will never bad mouth Bruce..I'm sorry! True, he was not perfect..but name one person on earth who is..


"This is how hes been characterized by virtually everyone who ever knew him. "

Oh? Since when? Never heard Jesse say that once. Nor Taky. Nor have I heard Pat Strong say that either. Nor the children of the late Ed Hart(who I believe spent time w/ Bruce). A fellow classmate of mine who studied with Jesse AND James DeMile never told me that DeMile said that to him. Virtually everyone eh?

"Thats funny because teaching Caucasians was never really the issue. "

Then why oh why were the "elders" who I believe were never named always recorded as being miffed and "losing face" because of Bruce teaching the "guai lo"?


"1. Wong Jack Man trained for years the first Caucasian to ever win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978.
2. For years he trained guys like Brent Hamby (a Caucasian) who was a USAWKF National San Shou champion.
3. He trained Sifu Scott Jenson (another Caucasian) who has been featured in some recent issues of KF Magazine.
4. For a time he also trained me and guess what? Im Caucasian."

I'm white too and I was trained by an African American who was taught by Bruce. Your point is? What I don't get is..if these elders were ****ed at Bruce for teaching non chinese? Why didn't they send a chinese of their choosing to issue an ultimatum to kick Wong Jack Man's ass?


Also, it wasnt long after the arguments Lee had with WJM over the interview and the Chinese Pacific Weekly article that:

"1. Lee closed his Oakland school."

To concentrate on movies

"2. He moved out of the area."

See answer to #1


"3. He put down Wing Chun and changed his style."

He couldn't have felt that WC was completely inferior as whatever he added later on was just that..an ADDITION to WC. Most of what I have heard consistently was that Bruce was rather impatient and his "leaving" as people claim was based on this rather than not wanting to be the 'top dog"

"Why point out that Bruce cant reanimate to rebut the claims made by Wong when he didnt rebut them while he was alive? "

At a certain point..people just kind of feel that they are beyond the bickering.


"Its not like he didnt have years to make a public announcement about it. "

He did..but it could also be that he didn't feel he had chi to waste ;)

NorthernShaolin
08-23-2012, 11:39 PM
Later than never,

Sorry but you are mistaken. You might have mis-heard Jesse Glover as he was not at BL/WJM event.

LaterthanNever
08-23-2012, 11:45 PM
I will ask one of my kung fu brothers who has studied w/ Jesse for over 20 years.

Were you there incidentally?


I guess I just don't really understand the relevance of resurrecting a fight which happened over 30 years ago. What is to be gained from all of this? Bragging rights? "proof" that Bruce wasn't what he claimed? Puffery that WC is the best?
Proof that Wong Jack Man was better?

It's done fellas!!!

Fa Xing
08-24-2012, 09:33 AM
I said this before, Northern Shaolin and Siu Lum Fighter, why does it matter. It was 50-60 years ago, Bruce is dead and WJM is an old man. No one in the JKD community that I know of cares a **** about it, and it's not something we think about. We use it to talk about how it was the catalyst for the development of JKD, which is a very strong and effective way of fighting.

Bruce moved down LA because he was getting started in Hollywood, not because he was scared of the l33t bak siu lum folks, or any kungfu fighter.

That's the last I think I will say anything about it.

kfman5F
08-24-2012, 11:20 AM
I heard years ago that Judo Gene Labell threw BL into a dumpster. I can't verify this since I forgot the source.

LaterthanNever
08-24-2012, 01:34 PM
"why does it matter. It was 50-60 years ago, Bruce is dead and WJM is an old man."

Ding..Ding..Ding!! What do we have for him Johnny??(ed mcmahons voice in background)

"I heard years ago that Judo Gene Labell threw BL into a dumpster. I can't verify this since I forgot the source"

years ago I heard that the late Ip Man was addicted to opium! Then I heard that Mikey from the "hey mikey he likes it" commercial died from mixing pop rocks and soda! Then I heard years ago that Wednesday from the Adams Family did a porno movie..

and then..

and then..

pazman
08-24-2012, 02:24 PM
This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzA3MDExMzk2.html

:cool:

LaterthanNever
08-24-2012, 04:22 PM
"This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong"

Um, With the exception of having perhaps 1/3 of Ip Man Wing Chun, JKD is AMERICAN..

no friend..this is JKD in the current day..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9Rvs

And here is the source..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I_CyYy7Paw

and of course..Jesse!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXphvGJoacM

pazman
08-24-2012, 05:43 PM
"This is real Chinese Jeet Kune Do, the legacy of Li Xiaolong"

Um, With the exception of having perhaps 1/3 of Ip Man Wing Chun, JKD is AMERICAN..

no friend..this is JKD in the current day..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9Rvs

And here is the source..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I_CyYy7Paw

and of course..Jesse!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXphvGJoacM


Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html

PalmStriker
08-24-2012, 06:51 PM
Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html Much better, Bruce Chi hands down ! Chinese Kung fu always rulez. Danny Glover was also at WJM match. :)

SteveLau
08-24-2012, 11:46 PM
These were the real reasons why the Chinese martial arts community in San Francisco had it out for him. That could be what really happened. I have never regarded Bruce a saint either. Just think about similar thing that happens sometimes in today's society. A guy posts insulting things to you and people you care about in a thugish manner in the Internet, capped it with a challenge "meet me in the gym." But whoever takes it seriously, and attempts to take up the challenge, would the ethics and wisdom of such person be questionable. I would think so.


This was seen the next day by Grandmaster Ming Lum himself and it was the only injury that could be seen on all of Wong's face or body. Really?! Did anyone read the physical examination report for injury on Mr. Wong at the time? Did anyone examine his naked body all over? Well, a fight lost is a lost. No matter, it is marginally lost or being beaten to a pulp. It reminds people be cautious of the outcome before one attempts to challenge others.
And, in my opinion, the only reason it “went both ways” was because Wong was obviously holding back. That is even odd. Wong being a master, should unlikely lose a fight when he had good chance to win, just because he wanted to be Mr. Nice!


It should have been a great victory for Bruce not an epiphany on how much he sucked and needed to change his style. Bruce openly admitted that his skill had room for improvement at the time. That was modesty. And so, Siu Lum Fighter, where is yours.

The initial post of the thread is similar to one that I have found in the Internet several years ago. They are both from the Master Wong's camp, with this more recent one comes with more detail. I only hope that there will be no more explanation of this, clarification of that anymore. Let the past stays in the past.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Siu Lum Fighter
08-25-2012, 12:37 AM
Posted by LaterthanNever
"You seem to be assuming that just because Jesse and Linda didn’t seem like people who would exaggerate that Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and, in case you forgot he was there, David Chin are."

I'm not assuming anything here. I've never met nor spoken with the aforementioned people.

You are assuming that if you meant it when you said, “Lee won the match.” If that were the case then Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and David Chin are all exaggerating and lying since all of their statements seem to be at odds with that assumption.


I believe he said "to tell you the truth, I THINK I COULD beat anyone in the world". A bit different.

That’s still a pretty wild boast. Especially for someone who didn’t go about trying to prove that to the world at all except through action cinema. Don’t get me wrong though. I’ll still acknowledge he had some skills. Not the best martial artist of all time (God that’s so ridiculous) but still pretty good.


I don't know about the other fight..but Jesse WAS there at the Wong Jack Man match! He told me once after class.

Jesse Glover – “I wasn't at the (Wong Jack Man) fight but Bruce told me about it.”
http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/jesseglover.html


"Also, out of everyone who was there how come Linda and Bruce seem to be the only ones who claimed Wong uttered the words “I give up”? Could it be because this is what Bruce told Linda and all of his friends because he knew it would be good for his rep? I think so. "

I don't know. My initial feeling would be that the aforementioned people were friends of Wong Jack Man and hence didn't want to corroborate that he lost? Why does this matter?

I was really trying to point out that I’ve never read anything that says James Yimm Lee said he heard Wong say “I give up.” If he didn’t hear that then it’s likely Linda never heard that either. She must have heard this from Bruce who, let’s face it, was either delusional when he heard Wong say that or he straight up lied which most BL worshipers refuse to believe even though he ran with a street gang, got kicked out of school, and got into trouble with the cops. I’m from East Oakland and I can tell you people like that sometimes exaggerate.

Being one of Jesse's students..I will never bad mouth Bruce..I'm sorry! True, he was not perfect..but name one person on earth who is..

It’s not like I don’t understand what you’re saying here. I’ve trained with some not-so-stand-up guys who I still respected as skilled martial artists. The reason we’re having this debate is because Linda and people like Leo Fong still feel they have to publicly come out and paint Sifu Wong out to be a loser and a racist when that is not the case at all. To be honest, he’s the most talented master I have ever known (and I’ve met some pretty tough guys).

Then why oh why were the "elders" who I believe were never named always recorded as being miffed and "losing face" because of Bruce teaching the "guai lo"?

This is why I find these claims so laughable. Because when you actually know people who were directly or indirectly connected with this event it’s so ****ed funny to hear about these "elders" who were p!ssed at Bruce for teaching non-Chinese and such nonsense. What "elders"? Why would they be “losing face” just because Bruce was teaching us "guai lo"? Look man, “Dragon” was complete fantasy. Jerry Poteet even walked off the set because he was disgusted with the whole project. Linda made it seem like there was this official council of old men who appointed Wong to fight Bruce when it was really just a bunch of guys around the same age as Bruce who took him up on his public challenge at the Sun Sing Theatre.

I'm white too and I was trained by an African American who was taught by Bruce. Your point is? What I don't get is..if these elders were ****ed at Bruce for teaching non chinese? Why didn't they send a chinese of their choosing to issue an ultimatum to kick Wong Jack Man's ass?
Because that’s a bunch of horse manure. There were no elders p!ssed at Bruce for teaching “guai lo”. If there were they would have been some of the Wing Chun masters in the area since that was what he was teaching and there was a tradition of keeping Wing Chun secret from westerners going back to the Boxer Rebellion. Why would a Northern Shaolin guy care that some guy was teaching a bunch of Americans Wing Chun?? Why would any practitioner from any of the other styles care for that matter?? The Choy Lay Fut guys usually had a rivalry going with the Wing Chun guys, why would they have cared?? Unless it was because they thought guai lo were going to start using Wing Chun against them but they thought their art was superior anyway so I still can’t see them giving a ****.

He couldn't have felt that WC was completely inferior as whatever he added later on was just that..an ADDITION to WC.
If you read a description of Jeet Kune Do on bruceleefoundation.com they like to describe it as consisting of boxing and fencing techniques and that’s all. Of course this was because the notes they’re drawing from are only on boxing and fencing. These obviously weren’t the only arts Bruce was into and if you ask me I feel that Inosanto’s eskrima and kali influences are more in keeping with what Bruce was exploring near the end of his life. He obviously must have been interested in some of the stuff Dan was showing him and he uses sticks in Enter The Dragon.

Most of what I have heard consistently was that Bruce was rather impatient and his "leaving" as people claim was based on this rather than not wanting to be the 'top dog"

He didn’t close his school in Seattle though. I’m not really saying anything by this but it seems worth noting. Maybe he felt he had attracted too much trouble in the Bay. Just sayin’.

Siu Lum Fighter
08-25-2012, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by LaterthanNever
I guess I just don't really understand the relevance of resurrecting a fight which happened over 30 years ago. What is to be gained from all of this? Bragging rights? "proof" that Bruce wasn't what he claimed? Puffery that WC is the best?
Proof that Wong Jack Man was better?

It's done fellas!!!
As long as men like Leo Fong come out and give their opinions of the match in the August issue of Kung Fu Magazine it’s not done. As long as the Bruce Lee Foundation keeps their version of the whole incident posted on their website (http://bruceleefoundation.com/index.cfm/pid/10606) it’s not done. My reputation as a martial artist is affected by these claims that the guy who taught me was prejudiced against white or black people. That suggests that he purposefully didn’t teach us well or purposefully taught us techniques that wouldn’t work. If he was so resentful of us guai lo wouldn’t he teach us stuff that didn’t work?

Because I know all of their claims to be completely false it really gets to me. The truth is he taught champions. He taught me stuff that I’ve successfully used in real fights.

And I still can’t get over it, why do people believe that Bruce almost threw out Wing Chun altogether because he didn’t "win fast enough"? Tell me who, in the history of martial arts, has ever done that? The Bruce Lee Foundation people even say in their laughable account of the whole thing that, "…Bruce could’ve taken the easy way out and continued with the classical arts. He could have coasted on his reputation and his victory over Wong J. Man. Instead, he threw out years of wing chun study and dove into researching other martial arts." Really, he could have "coasted on his victory"? Why didn’t he then? Oh, it was because, "He realized that even though he had successfully dispensed with the challenger, the traditional arts were not as effective as he’d wanted them to be in a real situation." That one’s so stupid. It’s not only insulting to all traditionalists but it should be insulting to Bruce Lee himself. Didn’t he use his traditional art effectively in all of those street fights in Hong Kong?

Siu Lum Fighter
08-25-2012, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by SteveLau
Bruce openly admitted that his skill had room for improvement at the time. That was modesty. And so, Siu Lum Fighter, where is yours.

The initial post of the thread is similar to one that I have found in the Internet several years ago. They are both from the Master Wong's camp, with this more recent one comes with more detail. I only hope that there will be no more explanation of this, clarification of that anymore. Let the past stays in the past.

I guess you could call me a part of Master Wong's camp but I'm actually posting all of this stuff independently. I'm just one of the many hundreds of people who learned from him throughout his career. The opinions I'm expressing have nothing to do with any of the people I trained with (although they might have similar feelings). Wong Sifu never even discussed the match with me at all. I never dared bring it up. Neither Wong Sifu nor any of his students have ever really bothered with these forums and, to be honest, I haven't been involved with his former school or any of his former students for years now. He's long since been retired and my last interaction with him was back in 2005.

All of the details I've been posting have actually been public for a long time now. I've posted some info from the Michael Dorgan article published in 1980 and David Chin's recent KF Magazine article. Sifu Chin actually didn't add anything new other than that he thought the match was a draw and that he was the one who delivered the challenge letter. Even my opinions on this aren't new. I'm merely rebutting what I read in the Leo Fong article in the August issue of Kung Fu Magazine. Where's his modesty? While Bruce was alive the match with WJM wasn't publicly discussed ever again. It wasn't until Linda Lee published her book and started selling her story to Inside Kung Fu that there was an issue. Where was their modesty?

And before people start thinking I'm making claims about who's style is better than who's etc. I want to state that I do think Bruce Lee had some real skills. If he was actually able to hold his own against Wong Jack Man then he must have. He wasn't ranked as a sifu in Wing Chun so if he was able to use what he knew to any effect against a respected grandmaster he must have been good. That being said I only wish people would realize that Wong Jack Man was no slouch either and that all of the JKD people publicly bringing the match up in magazines, books, and interviews isn't helping to put this argument to rest.

LaterthanNever
08-25-2012, 02:15 PM
"You are assuming that if you meant it when you said, Lee won the match. If that were the case then Wong Jack Man, William Chen, and David Chin are all exaggerating and lying since all of their statements seem to be at odds with that assumption."

Then where is the statement which you claim Master Wong Jack Man came out with?(in printed form)..or was it wanted to release? Would it really matter even if Bruce LOST the match? Both men were skilled fighters. I would not want to have gone toe to toe with either man in their prime

"Thats still a pretty wild boast. Especially for someone who didnt go about trying to prove that to the world at all except through action cinema."

Boasting is not germane only to Bruce. Ever read some of the quotes Muhammed Ali spouted off? And yeah..Ali lost a few fights too. Does it mean that he didn't believe that he could still beat anyone? His BELIEF propelled him to win many boxing matching which he may have otherwise lost. Incidentally, Lee was quoted as saying that even though he was a big fan or Ali and held a goal of wanting to fight him in the ring..that he was not ready beacuse he felt Ali would "take my head clean off"(if he fought according to Boxing rules). That sure doesn't seem like an Ego run amok does it?



"Dont get me wrong though. Ill still acknowledge he had some skills. Not the best martial artist of all time (God thats so ridiculous) but still pretty good."

Is it any less different than a high level Wing Chun master saying he is the "10th level of all holiness", Professor, Doctor,etc.etc.? What's next? OBE(Order of the British Empire)? And best of all time? This is something that came posthumously for Bruce(largely by the media and his fans). I'm sure some people think that Superman was the greatest of all time and some think it's Batman and some think it's Spiderman.


"Jesse Glover I wasn't at the (Wong Jack Man) fight but Bruce told me about it.
http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/jesseglover.html"

Touche. I concede. I was pretty winded after class. He did tell me that he was at a fight which recieved some publicity which did not go over 30 seconds.



"I was really trying to point out that Ive never read anything that says James Yimm Lee said he heard Wong say I give up. If he didnt hear that then its likely Linda never heard that either. She must have heard this from Bruce who, lets face it, was either delusional when he heard Wong say that or he straight up lied which most BL worshipers refuse to believe even though he ran with a street gang, got kicked out of school, and got into trouble with the cops. Im from East Oakland and I can tell you people like that sometimes exaggerate."

People exaggerate worldwide friend..not just east Oakland


"Its not like I dont understand what youre saying here. Ive trained with some not-so-stand up guys who I still respected as skilled martial artists. The reason were having this debate is because Linda and people like Leo Fong still feel they have to publicly come out and paint Sifu Wong out to be a loser and a racist when that is not the case at all. To be honest, hes the most talented master I have ever known (and Ive met some pretty tough guys)."

Please cite your sources. And a racist? Lee and Wong were BOTH Chinese! I don't see how this could be!? And if there were no "elders" who voted to have Master Wong Jack Man pound a bump on Bruces' noggin..then I don't get why the fight took place in the first place?

" What "elders"? "

Be it in print, video or spunned yarns, this is the story the general public hears again and again and again ad nauseum..that there were several chinatown "elite" who didn't jive w/ the fact that Bruce taught non chinese. I never said I believed it..I'm just saying what I've heard.


"Why would they be losing face just because Bruce was teaching us "guai lo"? "

I never said I agreed or that it was logical did I? I think in terms of "why SHOULD they be losing face?". The Chinese culture doesn't have an issue w/ whites, blacks, or latinos learning acupuncture and herbs and opening up a practice..so why should learning kung fu be different?

"Look man, Dragon was complete fantasy. "

Of course it was! Jesse told us over dinner at a local restaurant after training once that he didn't want his actual name used(so the studio execs used "Jerome Sprout"). Honestly..I didn't care for the movie much. I probably wouldn't have wanted my actual name to be used either.



"Jerry Poteet even walked off the set because he was disgusted with the whole project. Linda made it seem like there was this official council of old men who appointed Wong to fight Bruce when it was really just a bunch of guys around the same age as Bruce who took him up on his public challenge at the Sun Sing Theatre."

See above..I don't know. Studio execs in Hollywood get bored and are concerned w/ the bottom line..they want money and by spicing things up a bit..that's how the get top dollar.


"Because thats a bunch of horse manure. There were no elders p!ssed at Bruce for teaching guai lo. If there were they would have been some of the Wing Chun masters in the area since that was what he was teaching and there was a tradition of keeping Wing Chun secret from westerners going back to the Boxer Rebellion."

My understanding is that back in the day..NO STYLE of kung fu was permitted to be taught to non chinese..not just wing chun.


"Why would a Northern Shaolin guy care that some guy was teaching a bunch of Americans Wing Chun??"

Agreed. Which is why I don't get why Master Wong fought Bruce at all?



"If you read a description of Jeet Kune Do on bruceleefoundation.com they like to describe it as consisting of boxing and fencing techniques and thats all."

Not when I read Tao of Jeet Kune Do. And what I learned from Jesse had some of the Lap Sao, Bong Sao, Tan Sao, Fuk Sao just like WC. But after that..the rules changed..


" These obviously werent the only arts Bruce was into and if you ask me I feel that Inosantos eskrima and kali influences are more in keeping with what Bruce was exploring near the end of his life. He obviously must have been interested in some of the stuff Dan was showing him and he uses sticks in Enter The Dragon."

Perhaps. I have never met Guro Inosanto. I would like to one day. Some insist that the silat, and other southeast asian MA came after Bruces' death. My instinct tells me that Bruce would have learned/incorporated those too.


"He didnt close his school in Seattle though. Im not really saying anything by this but it seems worth noting. Maybe he felt he had attracted too much trouble in the Bay. Just sayin. "

Seattle was the first school..not Oakland as it's frequently written. The location in the U-District on University Way(near the University of Washington) was actually the 3rd spot it was located to in Seattle.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LaterthanNever
08-25-2012, 02:27 PM
"Whoa cowboy! Your videos contained no Chinese. They should watch this instructional and then get a duan ranking in China before they start teaching.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU3MjM4MTU2.html "

That's ok young man..your videos contained no Jeet Kune Do!! :o :eek:
And the duan system? That was instituded by the Chinese govermnent. An example of a high level dual was Grandmaster Feng Zhiqiang..9TH duan who recently passed away..

Palm Striker..

Danny Glover? Really? So the guy in Lethal Weapon w/ Mel Gibson was at the Wong Jack Man fight? Coolness!! Wait till I tell the guys! :rolleyes:

PalmStriker
08-25-2012, 03:07 PM
Heh-heh... yeah, he the man ! :D https://www.google.com/search?q=Danny+Glover,+predator+2,+trailer&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ZiP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8Es5UNzeJ4fx0gHNgIGoDQ&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=781

Fa Xing
08-26-2012, 01:50 PM
"Dragon" was terrible, and the only notable thing to watch about that movie is Sifu Jerry's choreography. When I asked him and his wife about the movie, Sifu Fran rolled her eyes, and Sifu Jerry changed the subject.

JKD the way I learned it, is modified Wing Chun, modified boxing, and modified fencing. All of my teachers, however, are from the LA Chinatown era, and therefore contain less wing chun in it.

yutyeesam
08-27-2012, 06:54 AM
I don't have a stake in this discussion, but I do think it is significant that the recounting of the incident makes Wong jack man and David chin look like racists. I never really thought of it that way before.

To me, that's a higher charge vs. Who won or not.

MightyB
08-27-2012, 07:54 AM
http://www.lovehkfilm.com/blog/roninonempty/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bruce-lee-period-costume-04.jpg
..........

Lucas
08-27-2012, 09:36 AM
Bruce Lee the Barbarian....thats badass lol

Kevin73
08-27-2012, 10:07 AM
Here is a clip from one of the "famous" rooftop fights that Lee competed in as a "gang member" as some have labeled him. The clip says that it is from the Lee video collection, but I have never seen any actual documented proof that it is or isn't. But, it IS a video from the time period in which Lee would have done the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXtQogCNh4

I have the feeling the Lee vs. WJM fight was probably very similar.

Reading between the lines, I would say that the fight had no clear cut winner. It was good publicity for Lee to say it was about racism, but there were several schools in the SF area that taught (openly) all people. Those that knew Lee all agreed that he was ****y and athletic.

Judo Gene LeBell and Ed Parker both said that while Lee was very athletic and could pick up movement VERY quickly, his knowledge wasn't very deep. BL exchanged ideas with both LeBell and Parker, but you wouldn't say that Lee was their student. This is the same case with Joe Lewis, he exchanged ideas with Lee and then Lee went around telling people that Lewis was his student/trained him.

Bruce Lee died VERY young without alot of years of training. We can only speculate how he would have matured as both a person and as a martial artist. BL was a great mouthpiece for ideas that were floating around at the time to spread them and get them more accepted by the MA community.

TenTigers
08-27-2012, 01:49 PM
This is the same case with Joe Lewis, he exchanged ideas with Lee and then Lee went around telling people that Lewis was his student/trained him.


well, considering that Joe Lewis has been doing articles and seminars on JKD techniques as taught to him by Bruce Lee, I guess you might surmise that he was in fact Lee's student.:rolleyes:

TenTigers
08-27-2012, 01:51 PM
also-those rooftop fights don't actually show Bruce Lee in any of them.
So, sure we can say that Bruce Lee's rooftop fights were of the same quality..but we don't know this for sure, so it's simply speculation.

Lucas
08-27-2012, 02:10 PM
All of my roof top fights end with me kissing cat woman and telling robin to gtfo of my personal space...

Fa Xing
08-27-2012, 02:38 PM
also-those rooftop fights don't actually show Bruce Lee in any of them.
So, sure we can say that Bruce Lee's rooftop fights were of the same quality..but we don't know this for sure, so it's simply speculation.

This is very true, in fact I may be mistaken but that might be a video William Cheung fighting, but I'm not sure about that.

LaterthanNever
08-27-2012, 04:16 PM
"but I do think it is significant that the recounting of the incident makes Wong jack man and David chin look like racists."

I've got to be honest here...I read EVERY WORD of that article from the JKDfoundation and I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that anyone in Bruces' inner circle thought that WJM was a racist..

Actually there was scant mention of WJM at all in the article by name except mentioning his name a couple of times!

Fa Xing
08-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do





What is Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do?

In one of Bruce Lees spots on the television show Longstreet, James Franciscus asks Bruce Lee, What do you call this thing you do? Bruce goes on to explain that the name he has given to his own approach to the martial arts is Jeet Kune Do. Translated from Cantonese, jeet means intercepting or stopping. Kune means fist, and do is the way. In English then, Jeet Kune Do is The Way of the Intercepting Fist.

Over the years, there has been much debate over the name Jeet Kune Do. Is it a style or a philosophy? Is it based on Eastern or Western martial arts? Bruce Lee himself was quoted as saying its only a name. But, of course, he had to have some way of referring to the techniques and strategies he was using.

The story of how he came to develop those techniques starts in 1964 when Bruce was teaching the traditional Chinese martial art of wing chun at his school in Oakland, California. Bay Area kung fu instructors, unhappy that Bruce was teaching non-Chinese students, sent Wong J. Man from Hong Kong to Oakland with an ultimatum: close the school or throw down. The challenge, of course, was met right there on the spot, and the two faced off, but a fight that Bruce felt should have been over much sooner lasted an excruciating three minutes. He realized that even though he had successfully dispensed with the challenger, the traditional arts were not as effective as hed wanted them to be in a real situation.

At this point, Bruce couldve taken the easy way out and continued with the classical arts. He could have coasted on his reputation and his victory over Wong J. Man. Instead, he threw out years of wing chun study and dove into researching other martial arts. He read thousands of books on various fighting systems, but the majority of books in his personal library were either fencing or boxing titles. These are the volumes that were most heavily underlined and annotated by Bruce. These are the arts that were most subject to his scrutiny. And these western arts form the foundation of Jeet Kune Do.

While Bruce Lee analyzed many fighting styles, this does not mean he incorporated all of them into his arsenal. Which brings us back to the James Franciscus question: What do you call this thing you do? Arguments of whether or not JKD is a style aside, Jeet Kune Do is the name that Bruce Lee gave to the fighting techniques and strategies he was developing and employing. It was what he was doinghow he was most efficiently using arms, legs, body weight, tactics, and the laws of physicsto fight. True, there are philosophical principles that guide the physical side of JKD, but we must never forget that JKD is about doing, about actionvery specific action.

That action is comprised of the JKD techniques developed by Bruce Lee himself. Contrary to common misconception, Bruce Lee did not merely take techniques from various arts and throw them together. He studied and tested very specific elements, and essentially, these were elements from only two artsWestern fencing and boxing. Jeet Kune Dos stance, footwork, and major strategic points come from fencing. A key principle in fencing, the stop-hit, is essentially the JKD namesakethe way of the intercepting fist. The idea that you can set up your opponent so that you will be able to intercept him in his most vulnerable stateon the attackis central to the work of fencing authors Aldo Nadi and Julio Martinez Castello, both of whom are quoted heavily in Bruce Lees Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

For body mechanics and maximum generation of power, Bruce turned to boxers Edwin Haislet, Jack Dempsey, and Jim Dricsoll. Again, all three are heavily quoted in Bruces writings. JKDs vertical-fist jab, proper alignment, striking surface, hip rotation, and kinetic chain sequence all come from boxing.

Even with the heavy influence of both sports, however, its important to note that JKD is neither fencing nor boxing. To technically explain this would be beyond the scope of this article, but its important to remember that Bruce never lifted techniques wholesale from other arts for the sake of accumulating new techniques. Each weapon was subject to scientific analysis, modified, and tested in fighting situations.

For our modern day purposes, Jeet Kune Do is the name we now use to describe those techniques and strategies that Bruce Lee developed and more important, employed, over his lifetime. Of course, he would have continued to improve on the JKD arsenal, modifying certain things, discarding others. But that is not for us to decide. As a further delineation and for historical purposes, to preserve Bruce Lees art and the contributions he made to the fighting arts, those techniques that originated from the sourceBruce Leenow fall under the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do name.

It doesn't even imply WJM as racist, just that "Bay Area kung fu instructors" sent him. They could have told WJM anything to challenge Bruce Lee.

yutyeesam
08-27-2012, 10:57 PM
"You must not teach our secrets to the Gwai Lo!"

seems like this very recounting is why lots of Kung-Fu people know what Gwai Lo means in the first place?

The fact that WJM is associated with any of it makes it seem like he's associated w/their beliefs, as opposed to just being an attack dog?

I dunno. I never thought of the racial connection myself, so maybe others don't either. But it looks like the association is there when pointed to it.

If in all these years, no one has ever confronted WJM as someone who denied training to "Gwai Lo", then it is a non-issue.

But if he had to deal with people saying to him, "How could you deny training to someone based on the color of their skin?!" then I think he is right to rebut the incident recount as a mischaracterization of his practices and ethics.

Someone's playing the race card, just not sure who! :D

hskwarrior
08-27-2012, 11:13 PM
"You must not teach our secrets to the Gwai Lo!"

seems like this very recounting is why lots of Kung-Fu people know what Gwai Lo means in the first place?

The fact that WJM is associated with any of it makes it seem like he's associated w/their beliefs, as opposed to just being an attack dog?

I dunno. I never thought of the racial connection myself, so maybe others don't either. But it looks like the association is there when pointed to it.

If in all these years, no one has ever confronted WJM as someone who denied training to "Gwai Lo", then it is a non-issue.

But if he had to deal with people saying to him, "How could you deny training to someone based on the color of their skin?!" then I think he is right to rebut the incident recount as a mischaracterization of his practices and ethics.

Someone's playing the race card, just not sure who!

sure, people today won't understand why gung fu being taught to the gwai lo was taboo in those days. but, if you lived in a time when people wanted to kill you because you were chinese you wouldn't teach gung fu to outsiders either. it was the mindset of Lau Bun and the others who came after him were against it. it wasn't racial.......it was us vs them. don't give them our only weapons to protect ourselves.

Siu Lum Fighter
08-28-2012, 02:27 AM
Bay Area kung fu instructors, unhappy that Bruce was teaching non-Chinese students, sent Wong J. Man from Hong Kong to Oakland with an ultimatum: close the school or throw down.
Another lie. Wong Jack Man was already in the U.S. at the time he was supposedly "sent". He practiced at the G and U Association in San Francisco. It was there that one elderly witness stated, “I witnessed Wong Sifu break a two inch wooden board against the grain with one light slap of his open palm. This demonstration illustrated how incredible his instrinsic energy really is.” So Wong Sifu was not "sent". He was at the Sun Sing Theatre with David Chin, Brandon Lai, and others when Bruce put out an open challenge. If there were the names of any elders on the challenge letter it was because Bruce had challenged T.Y. Wong and others in the Bay Area because he was a rash, impulsive, egotist who thought he could make a name for himself by beating up other martial artists. That's the main reason he originally ****ed everyone off. I believe he was only 18 when he was behaving this way but it still shows that he was rash and he had some major issues.

Originally posted by yutyeesam
Someone's playing the race card, just not sure who!
It's the people at the "Bruce Lee Foundation" and everyone else who ever sold this hill of manure to the public. Bruce Lee eventually learned from his mistakes and he never pushed the idea that he was challenged because he was teaching guay lo to the public. It wasn’t until Linda’s, “Bruce Lee: The Man Only I Knew,” that this whole idea was publicly promoted and Bruce Lee was made out to be a hero so she could sell more books. She also made money off this story by selling it to Inside Kung Fu and they made a killing off just having Bruce Lee on the cover.

Originally posted by hskwarrior
sure, people today won't understand why gung fu being taught to the gwai lo was taboo in those days. but, if you lived in a time when people wanted to kill you because you were chinese you wouldn't teach gung fu to outsiders either. it was the mindset of Lau Bun and the others who came after him were against it. it wasn't racial.......it was us vs them. don't give them our only weapons to protect ourselves.
It’s true, this was the mindset of many in the TCMA community. And who could blame them? For decades there had always been extreme racial prejudice against Asian people within the white community. Even today there seems to be this resurgence of anti–Asian sentiments among conservative white people because China owns most of the U.S. debt. I find it very ironic that it was in large part because of Bruce Lee that Chinese martial arts were spread among the public in the Americas and Europe. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn’t make it as an A-list star in the States. He had to go back to China and make his movies there and finally, just as he was about to blow up in America, his life was cut short. It’s really a great tragedy because he probably could have had an even more positive effect on the cross-cultural relations between China and the U.S. than Nixon and Mao.

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 08:48 AM
All of my roof top fights end with me kissing cat woman and telling robin to gtfo of my personal space...

Hey ME TOO!!:eek:

I think she is two-timing you!!!!!:p

hskwarrior
08-28-2012, 09:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loP1eCDmw8s

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:06 AM
Hey ME TOO!!:eek:

I think she is two-timing you!!!!!:p

Well I never....that hussy...I'm gonnnnaaa...ahh who am I kidding it's Cat Woman..does this mean Robin is two timing me as my sidekick too? :(

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 09:14 AM
Well I never....that hussy...I'm gonnnnaaa...ahh who am I kidding it's Cat Woman..does this mean Robin is two timing me as my sidekick too? :(

You are letting him kick you?:eek:

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:18 AM
You are letting him kick you?:eek:

Only in the side!

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 09:24 AM
Only in the side!

Ahhhh! You have been watching my Ribs of Steel Videos!

But I haven't been reading your posts, so please disregard anything that may lead you to believe I have read anything posted by you!

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:27 AM
Ahhhh! You have been watching my Ribs of Steel Videos!

But I haven't been reading your posts, so please disregard anything that may lead you to believe I have read anything posted by you!

Disregard accomplished. And Yes I have been watching your videos. The only part I dont understand...what exactly is the wet noodle used for? You kind of just have it hanging around the whole time, but never explain it's use! I mean....not that you'll be reading this anyway..

Brule
08-28-2012, 09:28 AM
Will we ever have a thread to rival the Shaolin-Doh thread? This one has potential depending on a few factors.....

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:30 AM
Will we ever have a thread to rival the Shaolin-Doh thread? This one has potential depending on a few factors.....

Maybe if we change the name to Bruce Lee is God/Satan. there will be enough controversial subject matter in the title alone to keep it alive through out the ages.

Brule
08-28-2012, 09:32 AM
Throw in BL being gay and we may have a winner. Make it so!

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:35 AM
Throw in BL being gay and we may have a winner. Make it so!

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/25083663.jpg

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 09:48 AM
...what exactly is the wet noodle used for? You kind of just have it hanging around the whole time, but never explain it's use! I mean....not that you'll be reading this anyway..

The wet noodle is a metaphor! When you understand it, it will be time for you to go!


Did somebody post something? I haven't read a thing!

BTW: Bruce Lee is cool and wears yellow brace........wait....wrong thread......and looks good in black tights!!

Lucas
08-28-2012, 09:54 AM
I don't want to go, therefore I will never contemplate the noodle in it's true glory. Bruce Lee has only one testic...oh wait wrong thread...he has some great bracelets!

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 09:57 AM
I don't want to go, therefore I will never contemplate the noodle in it's true glory. Bruce Lee has only one testic...oh wait wrong thread...he has some great bracelets!

LOL!!! Actually he DID only have one testicle....one was non-descended....or so it has been reported in a Black Belt article oh so many years ago!

taai gihk yahn
08-28-2012, 10:02 AM
Did somebody post something? I haven't read a thing!

nothing has been posted, and not a single thing exists to read...

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 10:05 AM
nothing has been posted, and not a single thing exists to read...

I wish I could remember to stop posting as everyone else all the time.

I confuse myself with my........self?????:confused:

Lucas
08-28-2012, 10:10 AM
LOL!!! Actually he DID only have one testicle....one was non-descended....or so it has been reported in a Black Belt article oh so many years ago!

I also read the same account in Unsettled Matters. But you didnt read that here.

pazman
08-28-2012, 10:12 AM
Here is some more of Li Xiaolong's gift to Chinese people, authentic JieQuanDao:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTU2MDk0NA==.html

Prepare to learn something!:)

Kevin73
08-28-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't want to go, therefore I will never contemplate the noodle in it's true glory. Bruce Lee has only one testic...oh wait wrong thread...he has some great bracelets!

He did, that was why he couldn't be drafted in the military. Actually, it was an undescended one according to records.

Lucas
08-28-2012, 10:30 AM
Supposedly that particular condition also can lead to over excessive bravido in men and a rash egotistical someone immature attitude. So it wasnt Bruce's fault, it was a medical condition!

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 11:49 AM
Supposedly that particular condition also can lead to over excessive bravido in men and a rash egotistical someone immature attitude. So it wasnt Bruce's fault, it was a medical condition!

My younger brother has a non-descended testicle too and he's okay.

He is an alcoholic socio-path, and has fathered 4 illegitimate children he never sees and jumps from job to job....... And at age 51 he is still very good at it!

TenTigers
08-28-2012, 11:59 AM
if I push mine back up, will my martial arts get better?

Lucas
08-28-2012, 12:04 PM
My younger brother has a non-descended testicle too and he's okay.

He is an alcoholic socio-path, and has fathered 4 illegitimate children he never sees and jumps from job to job....... And at age 51 he is still very good at it!

Sounds like a dedicated consistant man! I admire that quality in people. I also admire sociopaths. It's quite a feat to be able to remove yourself from those pesky emotions associated with the down weighted ego self. Your brother sounds like a great man indeed! Illegitimate children speak volumes of removing oneself from attachments!!! Wow I envy him.

Brule
08-28-2012, 12:04 PM
if I push mine back up, will my martial arts get better?

No, but your HIYAHHH!!! will have a higher pitch. Besides, how can your kung fu be better than it already is :p

Lucas
08-28-2012, 12:04 PM
if I push mine back up, will my martial arts get better?

Actually contrary to Brule, I think so. You'd probably have some fierce Iron Crotch if you could push both back up!!

TenTigers
08-28-2012, 12:15 PM
Outstanding! Hmmm... I guess I can just go out and buy underwear that doesn't have a "male pouch."
Well, I'm off to Victoria's Secret!

TenTigers
08-28-2012, 12:17 PM
I meant, on my way to Sears and Home Depot...to buy manly things. Carharts underrros n'such....

Lucas
08-28-2012, 12:27 PM
You go...guy!!

Scott R. Brown
08-28-2012, 12:33 PM
if I push mine back up, will my martial arts get better?

I tried it already and I was disappointed with the results.

I just kept being responsible too.


Sounds like a dedicated consistant man! I admire that quality in people. I also admire sociopaths. It's quite a feat to be able to remove yourself from those pesky emotions associated with the down weighted ego self. Your brother sounds like a great man indeed! Illegitimate children speak volumes of removing oneself from attachments!!! Wow I envy him.

I might be able to get you some private lessons from him. I think all you'll need to do is supply the beer and fishing bait.

Lucas
08-28-2012, 12:37 PM
I might be able to get you some private lessons from him. I think all you'll need to do is supply the beer and fishing bait.

I guess that depends on what we're fishing for! :eek:

Can he teach me to quickly defeat and kill my empathy and sympathy? Those emotions are always getting in my way. Also I would like lessons on how to father illegitimate children without having to get wrapped up in state and federal costs.

Scott R. Brown
08-29-2012, 03:33 AM
I guess that depends on what we're fishing for! :eek:

Can he teach me to quickly defeat and kill my empathy and sympathy? Those emotions are always getting in my way. Also I would like lessons on how to father illegitimate children without having to get wrapped up in state and federal costs.

I think that all involves the heavy drinking. How do you feel about becoming an alcoholic?

Lucas
08-29-2012, 08:38 AM
It's on my bucket list!!

David Jamieson
08-29-2012, 12:25 PM
Sociopathic tendencies aren't really learned so much as they are standard equipment. I am unfamiliar with any method to erase emotions or to instill them.

Lucas
08-29-2012, 12:34 PM
Sociopathic tendencies aren't really learned so much as they are standard equipment. I am unfamiliar with any method to erase emotions or to instill them.

You have to kill them with love!

bawang
08-29-2012, 01:31 PM
Can he teach me to quickly defeat and kill my empathy and sympathy? Those emotions are always getting in my way. Also I would like lessons on how to father illegitimate children without having to get wrapped up in state and federal costs.

i can teach you this easily. i take a stick and beat you many times, and maybe touch your tralala by force. when i am finished you feel nothing inside.

Lucas
08-29-2012, 02:36 PM
ooo lala? my tralala? ding dang dong!!! how much kfc i have to bring for lessons?

Siu Lum Fighter
08-29-2012, 04:11 PM
Really guys? This is what this thread has degenerated to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8FR5jk_2CA&feature=related

Lucas
08-29-2012, 04:17 PM
siu lum fighter is pro

Siu Lum Fighter
08-29-2012, 04:29 PM
You saw that. I found the HD version with no commercials (Gunther's a real hot commodity).

Lucas
08-29-2012, 05:14 PM
Don't know too many people that would get the tralala ref bawang busted

Lee Chiang Po
08-29-2012, 07:54 PM
Wing Chun came into north America back before 1900, but was not brought in by monks and such like David Caridine would tell you. Wing Chun was the most common gung fu of that time to come here. It came with Chinese gangs and gangsters. It was taught by members of the gangs to other members of the gang. It was not taught to none chinese and was pretty much kept behind closed doors. My first teachings started in 1955.
Bruce Was not confident of his Wing Chun and like so many others wanted to marry it with western boxing and ballet dancing. He came up with the JKD as a result, which you can see in any of his movies. The fight scenes were of course staged to make him look outrageously good. He was a great marketer of his own movies and of himself, but in reality he was not a great martial artist.

MightyB
08-30-2012, 05:43 AM
He was a great marketer of his own movies and of himself, but in reality he was not a great martial artist.

I reject your premise:

The guy was in superb physical shape
http://i2.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens18532185module153581917photo_1317350333b ruce_lee_push_ups.jpg

Experimented with practical cross training
http://www.maniacworld.com/Bruce-Lee-Fight.jpg

And had arguably the best traditional Wing Chun Sifu
http://ipman2brucelee.intuitwebsites.com/files/QuickSiteImages/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg

Had a great mind
http://www.thisisnotporn.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Bruce-Lee-2.jpg

Shattered Stereotypes
http://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img/item/182/879/664/bruce-lee-copy-autographed-photo-as-kato-green-hornet-05871.jpg

and did more to popularize and spread Chinese Martial Arts than anybody before or since.

If that's not a great martial artist, then I don't know what a great martial artist is.

bawang
08-30-2012, 05:51 AM
and did more to popularize and spread Chinese Martial Arts than anybody before or since.

If that's not a great martial artist, then I don't know what a great martial artist is.

and look at us now.

MightyB
08-30-2012, 06:03 AM
and look at us now.

he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

Lucas
08-30-2012, 09:20 AM
he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

this is actually true. the path that the guy was suggesting people take in regards to classical training with martial arts in modern times is the same basic path the best fighters in the world use today. regardless of style, it was an idea to a training approach that is significant. was he the only person to tink like this ? no. was he the most famous and outspoken to push this mindset? yes.

was he the best ever..? hell no. was he great? idk maybe, maybe not. was he right about stagnation and rigid reform to outdated training methods? hell ya he was. look at how many of the worlds actual top fighters speak highly of his impact on them. then look at how all the non fighter traditionalists hate him...zinger

Jimbo
08-30-2012, 09:46 AM
I agree with MightyB and Lucas.

I don't see how anyone can say that BL ruined the state of CMA in the world. If he'd never come along, CMA would likely be in the same or worse than it is today. There's a tendency among many CMAists to throw blame around when we're all (or mostly are) adults. There's also always a desire to be negative about other CMAists (I'm not counting frauds). It happens among other types of MA, but nothing close to among CMAists.

Did 'wax on/wax off', 'the crane kick', and 'Danial-san' ruin karate? Why is it doing so well?

It's weird, because on one hand, many say that BL wasn't any good, then turn around and say he ruined the whole state of CMA. Wow, that's giving a lot of power to a guy who supposedly 'sucked'. Instead of blaming a man who's been dead almost 40 years, maybe if there was less infighting and elitist attitudes among so many CMAists, kung fu would be in a 'better state'.

Scott R. Brown
08-30-2012, 10:58 AM
It is important to keep Bruce Lee's contributions within their proper historical context. We should not rate him based upon today's state of the martial arts, but the state of the martial arts of the late 60's and early 70's.

At that time martial skills on the tournament scale pretty much sucked. He was revolutionary for the time in which he lived. So were his movies and the physical condition and skills he displayed at that time in history.

Even his philosophy was pretty much borrowed from others but he still introduced some of the concepts to the western mind for the first time. In Asia they would have recognized his borrowing for what it was, but not here in America because we didn't have the same easy access as Asians would have to their own philosophical history.

Lucas
08-30-2012, 12:26 PM
It is important to keep Bruce Lee's contributions within their proper historical context. We should not rate him based upon today's state of the martial arts, but the state of the martial arts of the late 60's and early 70's.

At that time martial skills on the tournament scale pretty much sucked. He was revolutionary for the time in which he lived. So were his movies and the physical condition and skills he displayed at that time in history.

Even his philosophy was pretty much borrowed from others but he still introduced some of the concepts to the western mind for the first time. In Asia they would have recognized his borrowing for what it was, but not here in America because we didn't have the same easy access as Asians would have to their own philosophical history.

exactly. perspective is important. the training our elite fighters get today has taking the types of ideas BL had in his day to a whole new level. the same basic direction in regards to evolution of martial training. the thing about todays world that really changes the way martial arts evolve is the great amount of global electronic communication we have at our disposal. everyone is capable of being analyzed, discussed, suggested, improved upon, etc. to the degree that we move leaps and bounds forward in comparison to our forefathers that did not have this type of immediate world wide evaluation at their disposal.

its funny, but the internet is really one of our greatest tools in terms of broadening and furthering our own personal approaches to training.

Lucas
08-30-2012, 12:59 PM
I think it is also important to note that BL was not alone even at that time in the ideas he was beginning to formulate. I'll even go so far as to say he wasnt alone in that for hundreds of years. Evolution and further development of ways to make ourselves more dangerous as martial artists is actually the true tradition of training for combat. Why do you think so much heavy lifting, pushing, and pulling has always been done at Shaolin, combined with the desire to aquire so many styles? Thats cross training to as large of a degree that could be managed at that time, and in that world. BL's ideas actually are classical and traditional in that regard, he was just operating from a modern perspective.

also we cant hold his wc training against him, its not his fault he never truly discovered Shaolin kungfu ;) he was a true victim of circumstance.

Brule
08-30-2012, 01:36 PM
If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall.

bawang
08-30-2012, 02:05 PM
he died young, and his philosophy took a back seat in the TCMA community and then all the politics started. So - reject cross training, reject strength training and weight lifting, stop sparring and start believing in mysticism and ignore the obvious.

these problems were only in hongkong kung fu, because hong kong is a place to make money.

because of bruce lee martial arts from a backward and inbred area the size of a pimple on china's ass became the spokesman for kung fu.

LaterthanNever
08-30-2012, 02:55 PM
'If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall. '

Bruce did study some Hung Ga..and he was very complimentary towards CLF. Your statement is just plain idiotic

Brule
08-31-2012, 06:56 AM
'If BL trained in Hung ga or CLF he would be the second coming of wong fei hung or the green grass monk itself. But because his art was VT, it lead to his evetual downfall. '

Bruce did study some Hung Ga..and he was very complimentary towards CLF. Your statement is just plain idiotic

So is this thread. Hence why i made a silly statement hoping to outline the stupidty of some here who exalt someone like BL to the point of him being the ultimate in martial arts. ;)

Jimbo
08-31-2012, 07:49 AM
There's mostly two camps:

The 'BL was the greatest ever' camp.

The 'BL sucked' camp.

All of this is stuff that people have projected onto him. And then somewhere is the truth. None of us knew him, and NOBODY knows how BL might have matured. He wasn't the greatest (not even close), but he sure didn't suck (not even close, either). How many people are still even discussed 40 years after they're gone?

Siu Lum Fighter
09-02-2012, 01:11 AM
Wing Chun came into north America back before 1900, but was not brought in by monks and such like David Caridine would tell you. Wing Chun was the most common gung fu of that time to come here. It came with Chinese gangs and gangsters. It was taught by members of the gangs to other members of the gang. It was not taught to none chinese and was pretty much kept behind closed doors. My first teachings started in 1955.
It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasn’t enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

Bruce Was not confident of his Wing Chun and like so many others wanted to marry it with western boxing and ballet dancing. He came up with the JKD as a result, which you can see in any of his movies. The fight scenes were of course staged to make him look outrageously good. He was a great marketer of his own movies and of himself, but in reality he was not a great martial artist.
That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. I’ll admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was “the greatest martial artist of all time” was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

Fa Xing
09-03-2012, 12:14 PM
It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasnt enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

Thats one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. Ill admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was the greatest martial artist of all time was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

That's interesting, I have had a similar experience with TMA's. The more experience and training I do, the more I realize that strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork just don't work when it comes to fighting. The more I learn about effective and efficient fighting, the more I realize how deep yet simple Jeet Kune Do really is.

Siu Lum Fighter
09-03-2012, 01:56 PM
That's interesting, I have had a similar experience with TMA's. The more experience and training I do, the more I realize that strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork just don't work when it comes to fighting. The more I learn about effective and efficient fighting, the more I realize how deep yet simple Jeet Kune Do really is.
The footwork found in the forms of traditional styles like Karate, TKD, and kung fu are just exercises for strength training and coordination. Is it not obvious that a bow stance is just an exaggerated forward fighting stance. It's meant to stretch the tendons and give a sense of structure for power generation. How can it be denied that practicing a horse stance all the time builds leg muscles and puts a spring in your legwork. We've seen fighters with traditional backgrounds mop the floor with dancing flight footed boxers in the UFC so I can't help but disagree with you. Lyoto Machida has had a traditional Shotokan training regime all of his life and he was the UFC Light Heavyweight Champion. So I guess Karate sucks? Dan Hardy trained with the Shaolin monks and he's had a more or less winning career (24-10). It's obvious Cung Le trained in TKD and uses some of their kicks to great effect. One thing about non-traditional fighters I've noticed is that their not as sure footed as people who have trained extensively in some traditional styles. I think that's why boxers and kickboxers were so easy to take down in the early days of MMA. They were dancing around too much and they just got smothered. Perhaps you didn't train in the traditional style that fit you.

Fa Xing
09-03-2012, 02:36 PM
The footwork found in the forms of traditional styles like Karate, TKD, and kung fu are just exercises for strength training and coordination. Is it not obvious that a bow stance is just an exaggerated forward fighting stance. It's meant to stretch the tendons and give a sense of structure for power generation. How can it be denied that practicing a horse stance all the time builds leg muscles and puts a spring in your legwork. We've seen fighters with traditional backgrounds mop the floor with dancing flight footed boxers in the UFC so I can't help but disagree with you. Lyoto Machida has had a traditional Shotokan training regime all of his life and he was the UFC Light Heavyweight Champion. So I guess Karate sucks? Dan Hardy trained with the Shaolin monks and he's had a more or less winning career (24-10). It's obvious Cung Le trained in TKD and uses some of their kicks to great effect. One thing about non-traditional fighters I've noticed is that their not as sure footed as people who have trained extensively in some traditional styles. I think that's why boxers and kickboxers were so easy to take down in the early days of MMA. They were dancing around too much and they just got smothered. Perhaps you didn't train in the traditional style that fit you.

All of those fighters you've mentioned have modified their traditional styles to be more mobile. Plus in real JKD, not the stuff you see Bruce doing in the movies, is actually a lot more still and not bouncing around like the you seem to assume it is. In all honesty, I think you know absolutely nothing about JKD, and probably never seen anyone practice it.

Chinatown JKD (Wednesday Night Group Branch) (http://youtu.be/Bu0N4Xq2hF0)
Dan Inosanto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooIqQq8iDwI&feature=colike)

Drake
09-03-2012, 03:18 PM
I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?

Fa Xing
09-03-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?

This+

lol

Fa Xing
09-03-2012, 04:18 PM
Leo T. Fong (http://leotfong.com/LeoFong/LeoFong.html)

Very interesting read.

Jimbo
09-03-2012, 07:39 PM
It's true, Wing Chun masters were among the most secretive when it came to teaching their style to westerners. Because Jing Mo was like a community organization, the teachers who taught there were more open to teaching to the general public. The whole point of Jing Mo was to teach many different styles under one roof. There was a Jing Mo school established in San Francisco as early as 1935. It closed because there wasn’t enough interest in learning martial arts in the SF community. Wong Jack Man eventually opened the first successful Jing Mo in the United States and from the beginning he openly taught students of any race.

That’s one of the reasons I eventually became so annoyed with the legions of BL worshipers. I’ll admit, when I was a kid I was a huge fan but as time went on and I grew up learning traditional martial arts I began to disagree with certain things Bruce said. After learning more details about his life I realized that the only reason people kept going on about how he was “the greatest martial artist of all time” was because of marketing. This allowed certain instructors and martial arts magazines to make tons of money.

Does being a fan of someone require the person you admire to only say things that you agree with? In my life, I've admired and respected many people, in and out of the MA's, who happened to have some opinions that differed from mine on certain things. And I knew that none of these people were 'perfect', whatever that's supposed to be. In fact, I admired many of them more for their 'imperfections'. Because we all have them. The question one should ask is, what about this person did they do/accomplish that is positive and inspirational?

I respect the opinions of some posters here whose views often differ from mine. Many people only want to hear those who share the same views as their own. Sometimes you can learn more about your own views by listening to other viewpoints, provided they are respectfully given. Many of the founders of so-called traditional MA were considered upstarts and mavericks for their times.

If someone is waiting for a perfect hero to come along to give respect to, who only agree with their own views, they will be waiting a long, long time (forever).

Siu Lum Fighter
09-04-2012, 12:32 AM
All of those fighters you've mentioned have modified their traditional styles to be more mobile. Plus in real JKD, not the stuff you see Bruce doing in the movies, is actually a lot more still and not bouncing around like the you seem to assume it is. In all honesty, I think you know absolutely nothing about JKD, and probably never seen anyone practice it.
Ah, so you’re in the Inosanto camp. I actually have more respect for Inosanto than any of Bruce’s other long time students. It’s arguable he’s the toughest. I’ve done some training in eskrima and I have a great deal of respect for Angel Cabales. I’m on the side of Inosanto when it comes to the whole schism within the JKD world. I think the disagreements between the Ted Wong/Linda Lee and the Inosanto camps mainly stem from JKD seeming to be more of a philosophy than a “style.” If it’s a style then it would have to be similar to the way Bruce actually fought and trained. To be more inclusive of all the stuff he seemed to be exploring and his personal philosophy would mean being more in line with Dan’s approach.

What I was trying to say before was that those traditional styles I mentioned are mobile and I disagree with you if you think they’re full of “strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork” that “just don't work when it comes to fighting.” I think Bruce thought such things because his traditional stuff didn’t work against exceptionally good fighters. I don't see how he could have denied that Wing Chun can work well in real fights when he and others he knew used it quite successfully at times. I think he should have realized that he just didn't know enough to make such an assessment.

I'm pretty sure BL could have slaughtered the ever-loving **** out of any of the posters on this forum.

Talking **** about the dead, how low and pathetic can you go?
So what if we’re talking about the dead. While Bruce Lee was alive he disrespectfully stood in front of a picture of the deceased master Gichin Funakoshi as if to mock him (even though Karate is Okinawan and not Japanese).

Leo T. Fong

Very interesting read.
Yes, interesting. I find it interesting that Bruce would throw out Wing Chun and put it down all because he had to chase down a “coward.” It should be noted that, Leo Fong had some sort of tense disagreement or harsh interaction with Wong Jack Man. So it’s no surprise he would spread this slander.

Does being a fan of someone require the person you admire to only say things that you agree with? In my life, I've admired and respected many people, in and out of the MA's, who happened to have some opinions that differed from mine on certain things. And I knew that none of these people were 'perfect', whatever that's supposed to be. In fact, I admired many of them more for their 'imperfections'. Because we all have them. The question one should ask is, what about this person did they do/accomplish that is positive and inspirational?
I’ve maintained that Bruce did some good things for the world of martial arts. I’m just expressing my opinions about some of his views and his behavior and, well, I can’t say I admire him for his imperfections. He seemed to have a respect problem with older kung fu masters (he called them “fat and ugly”), and he lacked humility. He had a very bad temper (he viscously kicked Bob Wall after Bob accidentally cut him and said, "My God Bruce I'm sorry!") and if he perceived the SLIGHTEST disrespect from anyone he wanted to fight them. He even beat up Dan Inosanto on Dan’s 24th birthday just for fun. I just can’t admire him for any of these things and I find it hard to consider him a “master” in the traditional sense of the word. That’s just me. Sorry I feel like pointing all of this out but the reason this thread was started was because of certain untruths being spread about the BL/WJM match.

Jimbo
09-04-2012, 01:05 AM
Fair enough. Although regarding Inosanto, I thought I read somewhere, Inosanto saying he fist met BL when he (Dan) was 28.

I did not mean you should admire BL for acting disrespectfully, if he did. I said I admired some people more knowing they had flaws like everyone else does. BL just happened to be more famous, so his reported flaws were more exposed.

I've met some TCMA and other types of TMA masters, some old, who displayed far from admirable behavior. In fact, one master I knew of, I knew for a fact was involved in activity that was criminal, and he was not subtle about it. At all. His kung fu was very good, but in other ways not so much. I did not admire him.

I do respect BL for accomplishing many things. I also accept he could have been a jerk at times. I've met a number of young and not so young MAists who were total pr!cks. I was a bit arrogant too, when I was younger. I would think that most people grow up in time, but lifelong training in any MA, traditional or not, isn't a guarantee of that. A relative of mine acted horribly at times when young; now he's one of the nicest, most reliable people I know. Maybe BL would have matured like that, if he wasn't starting to already. We'll never know and it's a waste of time to speculate.

Anyway, regarding the fight, there's always he said/he said, and then somewhere lies the truth.

Fa Xing
09-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Ah, so youre in the Inosanto camp. I actually have more respect for Inosanto than any of Bruces other long time students. Its arguable hes the toughest. Ive done some training in eskrima and I have a great deal of respect for Angel Cabales. Im on the side of Inosanto when it comes to the whole schism within the JKD world. I think the disagreements between the Ted Wong/Linda Lee and the Inosanto camps mainly stem from JKD seeming to be more of a philosophy than a style. If its a style then it would have to be similar to the way Bruce actually fought and trained. To be more inclusive of all the stuff he seemed to be exploring and his personal philosophy would mean being more in line with Dans approach.

Actually, I could care less about the whole "camp," there are things I agree and disagree with on both sides of the coin. In fact, most of my JKD training comes from those considered more on the "original" side. However, I consider learning to be more important than who's right or wrong. I will decide what works for me based on my experience.

Siu Lum Fighter
10-18-2012, 09:43 PM
But if you consider Jeet Kune Do or Jun Fan Gung Fu as your main style then you have to have a stake in the whole controversy involving the proponents of Bruce Lee's "original" style and the more progressive interpretation that includes Inosanto's Eskrima and the Filipino arts. Would you be more on Teri Tom's and Linda Lee Caldwell's side or Paul Vunak's with his Progressive Fighting Systems style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUdVdjcAFyE

Interesting thing about this video for me is that they're demonstrating Eskrima and Kali techniques more than anything. I guess the JKD comes in around 5:35 when Sifu Harinder Singh Sabharwal (the bald guy in the middle) starts sparring without weapons. It's funny because he almost seems to be mimicking Bruce Lee before they start doing some chi sao (which isn't how a realistic fight would go). It makes me wonder about what Jeet Kune Do is. The people who claim that it's putting BL's theories into practice still seem to mimic the way Bruce Lee moved and fought like they just saw one of his movies and they wish they were him. I guess there's nothing wrong with that. Students often try to mimic their masters. At one time I acted like I was Bruce Lee when I used to spar my classmates in Karate class so I guess in a sense he was just as much one of my "masters" as my Karate senseis (I was only a yellow belt).

In my opinion Bruce Lee's opinions about forms were unfounded. Forms do more than help someone integrate footwork and striking, they contain the particular techniques of whatever style you're training with. If he thought the footwork in any given style was unnatural then I think he should have made up his own set of movements. That's what all of his fans did anyway by mimicking the way he fought the big bosses in his movies.

Yum Cha
10-20-2012, 03:14 PM
Fair enough. Although regarding Inosanto, I thought I read somewhere, Inosanto saying he fist met BL when he (Dan) was 28.

I was told by a Parker Kenpo friend that Inosanto was a student of Ed Parker, and being the baddest of the lot, was assigned to look after Bruce Lee while Bruce was working with Parker on the early Tournaments in the states. Everybody has seen the Bruce Lee full contact sparring demo with all the body armour? Both Parker and Lee were showmen.
Inosanto got to know Bruce and shifted over to become his student.

No ill will was ever mentioned from the Kenpo camp.

When were those tournaments? Early 60's?

Fa Xing
10-20-2012, 08:45 PM
I was told by a Parker Kenpo friend that Inosanto was a student of Ed Parker, and being the baddest of the lot, was assigned to look after Bruce Lee while Bruce was working with Parker on the early Tournaments in the states. Everybody has seen the Bruce Lee full contact sparring demo with all the body armour? Both Parker and Lee were showmen.
Inosanto got to know Bruce and shifted over to become his student.

No ill will was ever mentioned from the Kenpo camp.

When were those tournaments? Early 60's?

Mid-60's, first one was 1964 if I'm not mistaken.

valentina
11-30-2012, 03:21 PM
will be coming out sometime in December 2012 hopefully, and it is far away the most detailed account of that incident I have ever seen, and I have seen most everything which was written about it on the internet, etc. but this book really takes it to another level. The work and research he did on it is pretty impressive...

pazman
11-30-2012, 03:36 PM
Did either Lee or Wong employ any elite trickery, dark psychology, or "snake engine" techniques into the fight?

I really want to know because this fight was really important.

valentina
12-21-2012, 09:42 AM
This is for people who are interested in this challenge match. I know that he spent a long time on it and this should bring new insight to the story. I have seen it and was quite surprised at the detail. He even had a picture of the car they drove over to Oakland in! Not the same car but the same year, same model, only a different color. I think people will be pleasantly surprised. The fact that Grandmaster Ming Lum and Sifu Greglon Lee liked it says quite a bit I believe. Since no one brought a movie camera to the fight, there has been much speculation and discussion about this. If you don't have a kindle, there does exist free software that allows people to read it on other platforms.

Here's the link.

http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1356106091&sr=8-3&keywords=showdown+in+oakland

I think this might add to everyone's discussion on this topic.

valentina
12-21-2012, 11:48 AM
This e-book is now out on this match. This is the long version of the story. For anyone wondering what happened, martial arts people, JKD people, fans, etc.

Here is the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1356115465&sr=8-3&keywords=showdown+in+oakland

Brule
12-21-2012, 11:48 AM
It still surprises me what people do in order to try and make money. sheesh....

bawang
12-21-2012, 11:57 AM
bruce lee is a joke. wong jack man is a joke. your book is sh1t.

Syn7
12-21-2012, 12:15 PM
Ban the spam!

6 posts, all promotional. She's gotta go!

Robinhood
12-21-2012, 12:53 PM
Ah, so you’re in the Inosanto camp. I actually have more respect for Inosanto than any of Bruce’s other long time students. It’s arguable he’s the toughest. I’ve done some training in eskrima and I have a great deal of respect for Angel Cabales. I’m on the side of Inosanto when it comes to the whole schism within the JKD world. I think the disagreements between the Ted Wong/Linda Lee and the Inosanto camps mainly stem from JKD seeming to be more of a philosophy than a “style.” If it’s a style then it would have to be similar to the way Bruce actually fought and trained. To be more inclusive of all the stuff he seemed to be exploring and his personal philosophy would mean being more in line with Dan’s approach.

What I was trying to say before was that those traditional styles I mentioned are mobile and I disagree with you if you think they’re full of “strange postures, overly stylized movements, and terrible footwork” that “just don't work when it comes to fighting.” I think Bruce thought such things because his traditional stuff didn’t work against exceptionally good fighters. I don't see how he could have denied that Wing Chun can work well in real fights when he and others he knew used it quite successfully at times. I think he should have realized that he just didn't know enough to make such an assessment.

So what if we’re talking about the dead. While Bruce Lee was alive he disrespectfully stood in front of a picture of the deceased master Gichin Funakoshi as if to mock him (even though Karate is Okinawan and not Japanese).

Yes, interesting. I find it interesting that Bruce would throw out Wing Chun and put it down all because he had to chase down a “coward.” It should be noted that, Leo Fong had some sort of tense disagreement or harsh interaction with Wong Jack Man. So it’s no surprise he would spread this slander.

I’ve maintained that Bruce did some good things for the world of martial arts. I’m just expressing my opinions about some of his views and his behavior and, well, I can’t say I admire him for his imperfections. He seemed to have a respect problem with older kung fu masters (he called them “fat and ugly”), and he lacked humility. He had a very bad temper (he viscously kicked Bob Wall after Bob accidentally cut him and said, "My God Bruce I'm sorry!") and if he perceived the SLIGHTEST disrespect from anyone he wanted to fight them. He even beat up Dan Inosanto on Dan’s 24th birthday just for fun. I just can’t admire him for any of these things and I find it hard to consider him a “master” in the traditional sense of the word. That’s just me. Sorry I feel like pointing all of this out but the reason this thread was started was because of certain untruths being spread about the BL/WJM match.


Good post !

I agree BL was a good showman, but only touched the surface of most MA's and was in no real position to comment on any of them.

His WC was only minimal at best, and he tried to base his JKD around a beginners view of WC, which is what most WCers Seem to do today also, that is why WC is so watered down to just mostly flowery hands, so I would liken JKD as more of a combination or collection of watered down arts.

But he also fell into the young people syndrome of he knows it all. If he had lived longer he would have grown out of it, if he was smart and did not sell out to greed.

Siu Lum Fighter
12-28-2012, 02:14 AM
Wow, I just got finished with the new book on the BL - WJM fight (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356685707&sr=8-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland) and I have to say I was totally floored! This is the definitive work on the subject. Not only are there two detailed eye witness accounts (including one from Grandmaster David Chin) but copies of the actual Chinese newspapers that were involved in reporting on this event! This books blows away the argument that the fight was over Bruce Lee’s right to teach non-Chinese. There are eye witness accounts of what transpired at the Sun Sing Theatre in San Francisco when Bruce put out his challenge to the public. Ming Lum gives his account of what transpired and even Greglon Lee, the son of Bruce Lee’s friend, James Yim Lee, weighs in on the matter. They all agree that the match was not over whether Bruce Lee could teach non-Chinese people. As Sifu Wong himself said, “Even Bruce Lee never said these things.” If that is still going to be the stance of the Bruce Lee Foundation or any other official JKD organization then they’ll be ignoring the facts.

Many of these facts I've already laid out in previous posts throughout the years and since I am a former student of Wong Sifu's people may have thought I was being biased. But this should be the final say on the matter. There's detailed maps and pictures of where everything took place including the former location of Bruce Lee's studio. This book is a must read for all martial artists! Not only because it details what happened in this controversial match but it shows a lot of the history of the Bay Area martial arts scene back in the 1960's and details some of Bruce Lee's life before he was famous.

LaRoux
12-29-2012, 05:04 PM
Bruce Lee and Ted Wong sparring:

http://u.jimdo.com/www31/o/sd2b11860f6c625a9/img/i92db2bf4ef45aaf1/1283975135/std/ted-haciendo-sparring-con-bruce.jpg

I have read many times, that while Bruce was living in LA, that Tuesdays and Thursdays classes took place in Chinatown. While a select few were invited over to Bruce's house wednesday night for sparring, and Saturday for more training. Not sure about the lop sao stuff, I've never heard that before.

In fact, I've read from about every student either through print or word of mouth that he would spar with them regularly and wipe the floor with them.

That looks pretty staged to me.

As far as sparring with his students, I'm pretty sure just about all of them either had no fighting experience or came from point fighting karate backgrounds.

IMO, Lee wouldn't have had a chance against even a medium level Muay Thai fighter.

chud
12-29-2012, 10:34 PM
...and since I am a former student of Wong Sifu's people may have thought I was being biased. But this should be the final say on the matter.

And I see the book was written by a student of Wong Jack Man, so yeah.

Siu Lum Fighter
12-30-2012, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Chud
And I see the book was written by a student of Wong Jack Man, so yeah.
That shouldn't matter since there's enough commentaries by people who weren't Wong Jack Man's students. Ming Lum gives his account of what was happening at the time and he didn't have a stake in the whole thing either way. Neither David Chin nor Bill Chen were WJM's students and they did not collaborate when giving their accounts. None of these men have even had contact with each other throughout the years at all. It's not like Rick Wing took what they said and modified it so it sounded better for the "Wong Jack Man side". It should be noted that Rick is a fan of Bruce Lee's. I myself can count myself as somewhat of a fan (but more because of his movies than anything else). I really don't think people have a right to criticize this particular book if they haven't read it.

Fa Xing
01-05-2013, 01:39 PM
That looks pretty staged to me.

As far as sparring with his students, I'm pretty sure just about all of them either had no fighting experience or came from point fighting karate backgrounds.

IMO, Lee wouldn't have had a chance against even a medium level Muay Thai fighter.

And that opinion is based on what, exactly?

BTW, there are eye-witness accounts of him fighting a MT fighter in Thailand during the filming of Big Boss, and even Dan Inosanto has said on multiple occasions that BL could have jumped in the ring and become a top ranked lightweight in the 1960s. (http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/14930-bruce-lee-in-boxing-trunks).

Fa Xing
01-05-2013, 01:54 PM
Wow, I just got finished with the new book on the BL - WJM fight (http://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oakland-Story-Behind-ebook/dp/B00AR0KE1I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356685707&sr=8-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland) and I have to say I was totally floored! This is the definitive work on the subject. Not only are there two detailed eye witness accounts (including one from Grandmaster David Chin) but copies of the actual Chinese newspapers that were involved in reporting on this event! This books blows away the argument that the fight was over Bruce Lees right to teach non-Chinese. There are eye witness accounts of what transpired at the Sun Sing Theatre in San Francisco when Bruce put out his challenge to the public. Ming Lum gives his account of what transpired and even Greglon Lee, the son of Bruce Lees friend, James Yim Lee, weighs in on the matter. They all agree that the match was not over whether Bruce Lee could teach non-Chinese people. As Sifu Wong himself said, Even Bruce Lee never said these things. If that is still going to be the stance of the Bruce Lee Foundation or any other official JKD organization then theyll be ignoring the facts.

Many of these facts I've already laid out in previous posts throughout the years and since I am a former student of Wong Sifu's people may have thought I was being biased. But this should be the final say on the matter. There's detailed maps and pictures of where everything took place including the former location of Bruce Lee's studio. This book is a must read for all martial artists! Not only because it details what happened in this controversial match but it shows a lot of the history of the Bay Area martial arts scene back in the 1960's and details some of Bruce Lee's life before he was famous.

Sounds interesting, I will have to get it at some point soon. Currently, I am reading Greglon Lee's books on his dad and BL: The Dragon and Tiger Vol 1 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Dragon-Tiger-Birth-Bruce/dp/1583940898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357419075&sr=8-1&keywords=dragon+and+tiger+bruce+lee)and 2 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Dragon-Tiger-Oakland-Volume/dp/1583941185/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y). The info from these books is very informative since I am more familiar with BL's life, training, and teaching in LA.

Siu Lum Fighter
01-14-2013, 04:07 PM
http://www.alivenotdead.com/30048/New-Book-About-the-Bruce-Lee-Wong-Jack-Man-Fight--profile-2941094.html