the 4 phase of power generation

[Hendrik]

thus, i have heard, power generation can be catagories into 4 phases/catagories

1, the Target dependency/ Target slips dependency.

in classical chinese martial art there is a saying ---- strike target is a plane meaning if one missed the point target whatever within the whole stike trajectory plane can become a target. so, a strike is target independent, there is no waste strike.



2, the recoil support mechanism and recoil time

in clasical chinese martial art. recoil or loading time is the time the opponent practice intercept to shutdown one's engine. Intercept is a key component of wck. thus wck also refine/cut down/minimize its recoil to anti-intercept.



3, power generation and transfer effectiveness

in classical chinese martial art, it is said issuing force is similar to releasing an arrow from the bow. wck kuit said, other travel the way of bow, i travel the way of the string.


4, System stability and amount of compensation needed with compensation time.

in classical chine martial art, it said will not let a feather added on to my body. how will one want to take the reaction force into one's body to cause stuck insystem functiom?

even rooting others weight/power in one's body is violating of the not let feather added on to my body' idea for that rooting looks great in demo but actually loaded down one's system.



to have awareness on the 6 directional/diamentional force vector components resultant is the fundamental of power generation and manuval. thereby, first start with non broken arrow non wide horse stance training ------ SLT/SNT, no jumping no kicking no shaking the butt no whipping the spine no secret move no advance or low level....no robotic programing.. think less..ect ----just stand there begin with Aware......--- a top secrete of no secret.


a well adaptive dynamic self balancing body will minimized or even not over shoot .. push and quick disengage the taiji peng guy or yi chuan fun yun guy see if they over shoot.


thus, i have heard.

[t_niehoff]

All that's great but IMO it just overcomplicates and overtheorizes the whole thing. Let me use an analogy -- when one first learns to hit a forehand in tennis, everyone learns the same basic way, how to stand, how to hold the racket, when to hit the ball, how/when to transfer one's weight into the ball, etc. You can look in any primer on tennis and see the same thing/description. This is the punch from YJKYM.

The point of that "model" (forehand or punch) is to give us the idea/feel of the mechanics that drives it. If you look at good tennis players, with tremendous forehands for example, you'll see that rarely do they "look" like that model (form) forehand -- but the underlying mechanics they use is the same. Once they "get" the mechanics, they are somewhat freed from the constraints of the model.

Knowing that "model" doesn't mean, however, that one will be able to hit a powerful forehand drive; that comes from a great deal of practice, and from finding out how, using the basic model of a forehand described in the primer, hitting thousands of balls, to find your own forehand. And it necessarily won't look anything like the "model". There is only one way to get real power from a forehand, and all good forehands use a variation or individualized modification of it. Similarly, there is only one way to get real power from the YJKYM (body mechanics), and everyone who has good power uses a variation or individual modification of it. So instead of analyzing the mechanics, the only way to "get it", whether a forehand drive or the jik chung choi from YJKYM, is by doing it, by practicing it a lot, actually hitting things (balls or targets) and using the feedback one gets from that practice to "focus in on" the proper mechanics for you.

One can't "get" -- either the ability to perform well or understanding -- the forehand or the punch from YJKYM (the foundation power of WCK) by mimicing someone's form or by analysis. These things just get in the way. The only way to find the mechanics and hone the mechanics is via practice (hitting things): getting results and using that as feedback to adjust your practice. The SNT gives us the model to begin our practice (just like the tennis primer gives us the model for the forehand drive).

[Hendrik]

All that's great but IMO it just overcomplicates and overtheorizes the whole thing. .


1, is it any chance that you have missed understand what I am posting about?

2, http://www.takeforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70&mforum=wongshunleung is illustrating how Wong Shun-Leong look at the whole process and into the phase 4 on system stability and compensation....


3, try and erro standing in YJKYM doing punch is just to time consuming. knowing there are at least 4 phases in the process of striking and what to pay attention to and working on, actually save developing time, make things much clear, and closer to reality then fantasying and keep training and redesign wheels or lost in one's level of thinking which not capable to know what is going on yet.

[SevenStar]

I think terrence's point is that theory in general overcomplicates things. the example I use alot is with various jings - a judoka doesn't "know" what peng is, but he can do it. he doesn't "know" what yielding is, but can do it. Same goes for many sport fighters. They are taught these things merely as good technique, and don't get into the theory behind it.

[Hendrik]

I think terrence's point is that theory in general overcomplicates things.

the example I use alot is with various jings - a judoka doesn't "know" what peng is, but he can do it. he doesn't "know" what yielding is, but can do it. Same goes for many sport fighters.

They are taught these things merely as good technique, and don't get into the theory behind it.




Winning is not an accident but a well strategiest tactical exercution game. one needs to know where to put the focus and what to do or not to touch.

Knowing oneself and knowing the opponents is a good starts.

look at the Kyokushin, the are fighters but they do analyse the heck out of others...
http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/KickInstruction.htm

since ancient time, in china , the analysis and modeling exist. What do one expect out from this keep evolving world? if not every evolusion get things more sophisticated and complex?



A judoka does Peng? what is Peng? illustrated it in details based on awareness and force vectors. otherwise, the possibilities is very very very not likely a judoka can do Peng.


just some thoughts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep dreaming about Trial and Erro, and dont have to think, just
training hard and redesign wheels. it is not going to work anymore.

Toto, it is no longer in kansas city .

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik,

There is a way we, as human beings, actually learn - and best learn - any physical skill. We can look at any form of athletics, incuding fighting systems, and see that same method in action. If someone wants to learn to hit a good forehand drive in tennis, throw a fastball in baseball, sink a set shot in basketball, throw a rear cross in boxing, do a hip throw in judo, do a single-leg takedown in wrestling, do the punch from YJKYM in WCK, whatever, there is the same pattern of how one learns and develops skill. This stuff is based on feeling and not on intellectual "understanding."

That pattern of skill development doesn't begin with arcane, complex analysis or theory -- that will be, in fact, counter-productive. It begins with a simple model, and then the trainee *uses* that model and with feedback from that use, and finds their own mechanics through feeling. In other words, using the model (as a guide) and by repetition with feedback actually doing the action, our *bodies* find the best way for us. There is no short-cut.

As a general rule, the amount of theory or intellectual analysis one uses or relies upon is inversely proportional to performance ability.

[Hendrik]

There is a way we, as human beings, actually learn - and best learn - any physical skill. We can look at any form of athletics, incuding fighting systems, and see that same method in action. If someone wants to learn to hit a good forehand drive in tennis, throw a fastball in baseball, sink a set shot in basketball, throw a rear cross in boxing, do a hip throw in judo, do a single-leg takedown in wrestling, do the punch from YJKYM in WCK,

whatever, there is the same pattern of how one learns and develops skill. This stuff is based on feeling and not on intellectual "understanding."------- T

very true. and i agree.

however,

1 to know what to look for and working on with intellectually understanding can cut the development time to not wasting in trial and erro

2 there are model which is garbage. and there are model which tell the first order important point to watch for.


3 right modeling and theory and simulation cut down development time as we know in todays world. the model does get complex but good complexity is needed because that complexity point out the detail needs to be handle.


sure, one still needs to practice.


as for the 4 phase of power generation, one has to know what to do with each phases. it is more then just strike but it gives 4 degree of fredom of a strike and know what to looking for and what can be taking advantages on.






That pattern of skill development doesn't begin with arcane, complex analysis or theory -- that will be, in fact, counter-productive. It begins with a simple model, and then the trainee *uses* that model and with feedback from that use, and finds their own mechanics through feeling. In other words, using the model (as a guide) and by repetition with feedback actually doing the action, our *bodies* find the best way for us. There is no short-cut.----------- T

compare those just do it practice, and
knowing about Awareness, 6 direction force vectors, and 4 phases of power generation and then practice.

after a month what do you think the result of striking and handling will be?




As a general rule, the amount of theory or intelectual analysis one uses or relies upon is inversely proportional to performance ability.-------T


we can build skyscraper and safely working airplane today faster then any time in the past without big waste of resources, and get great result and performance. those achivement is due to intelecture analysis and theories/simulation to know what to deal.




furthermore, imhho, after 1900 some tries to Save the chinese martial art via going mysterious and some going via so called scientific and some going selectectively between mysterious and scientific whatever fit thier needs.

imhho, kuen sut means technology of martial/fighitng. lets get engineering instead of myth and science with as one likes it filtering.

we can fly a plane today compare with the past. what is so difficult to just create a keng geng? it is not even ask one to fly which we have done it---fly.

do we know what are we solving? or just mysterious un scientific or totally unclear personal view but called it scientific?

using a computer is complex too for the untrain.


just my 2 cents

[t_niehoff]

Learning and developing physical skills isn't like operating a computer. Operating a computer is an intellectual exercise; throwing a ball isn't.

Intellectual comprehension of what is going on in the "model" isn't necessary or even that important -- I may not understand the physics or the aerodynamics of a curveball pitch in baseball or a forehand drive in tennis, but I can find how to do it from the model. And I can fine-tune it via practice. Knowing the physics or aerodynamics won't help me pitch or hit the forehand in the least.

We can break any physical activity down into various components -- I could, for example, come up with the 6 components of a good forehand. But it remains that the only way to learn and develop a forehand is to take the model and via repetition with feedback, fine-tune it to work for me (develop my own forehand). All those components will fall into place with this process. Over intellectualizing it IMO only signifies we're not using this process.

And that process, taking the model and use it with feedback, will point out any deficiencies in the basic model. That process is self-correcting. So even if someone shows you a poor model for the forehand drive, by getting out there and hitting lots forehands, getting feedback from your practice (what is your ball doing), and constantly fine-tuning it to improve your results, you will naturally develop your own good forehand anyway. Our success is not how close we come to the model; the model only helps us find our own individual expression.

[Hendrik]

Our success is not how close we come to the model; the model only helps us find our own individual expression.



you are right and I agree with you.

[t_niehoff]

I recommend you read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell (it's on the best-seller list, but don't hold that against it -- it's a good book for WCK practitioners IMO). It's about "how we thing without thinking, how we make choices in an instant".

One interesting thing pertaining to what we've been talking about -- Eric Braden, a world-class tennis coach, has done reasearch with many of the world's top tennis players, asking them questions (the why's and how's) about what they do. "Out of all the research we've done with top players, we haven't found a single player that is consistent in knowing and explaining exactly what he does. They give different answers at different times, or they have answers that simply aren't meaningful."

For example, "almost every pro in the world says that he uses his wrist to roll his racker over the ball when he hits a forehand" but when they look at digitized images of these athletes hitting forehands they see that they don't move their wrist at all when they hit the ball; they move their wrist after they've already hit the ball. Braden asks, "How can so many be fooled? People are going to coaches and paying hundreds of dollars to be taught how to roll their wrist over the ball."

The answer is that our bodies find the way to do these things, like hit the forehand, from practice and our intellect *then* tries to explain it (this is what I must be doing) but it can't. So we get inconsistent explanations or meaningless explanations. It's a great example of our conscious, intellectual mind, trying to explain what is essential a subconscious (unconscious) process.

So the explanation will basically get in the way of the doing -- so the best way to develop a good forehand is to take the model of the forehand, get out on the court and hit lots of forehands, use the feedback from that to fine-tune your forehand, play with it, and develop it.

[Hendrik]

The answer is that our bodies find the way to do these things, like hit the forehand, from practice and our intellect *then* tries to explain it (this is what I must be doing) but it can't. So we get inconsistent explanations or meaningless explanations.

It's a great example of our conscious, intellectual mind, trying to explain what is essential a subconscious (unconscious) process.



So the explanation will basically get in the way of the doing -- so the best way to develop a good forehand is to take the model of the forehand, get out on the court and hit lots of forehands, use the feedback from that to fine-tune your forehand, play with it, and develop it.



You are right again,
with the condition of one doesnt AWARE of what doesnt Aware. and One thinks about One knows but one dont.

But, there are one Awares of what one doesnt.
and One Awares of what one Aware and not Aware.


so one sizes cannot fit all.





As einstien said, one cannot solve the problem in the same level of thinking one create it. one has to AWARE of which level of thinking one create the "problem" instead of one sizes fit all in the same level of thinking one create the problem.




Further more,

Explanation will not get in the way of the doing in the condition of one really Awares of what one Aware of.

it is like a driver who has been in LA and knows all about LA in detail. he knows well thus his explanation will not get in the way.




and the model create by a person who Awares of what he Awares and not Aware is better then a model create by a person doesnt AWare of what is happening totally but using a guessing work and trial and erro to come up with a model forsake of modelling.

and with those type of model, your guess is as good as my guess. because both of us have not aware of what is going on and no idea of what is going on.


So, that goes back to my proposal for WCK next generation basic training---

AWARENESS, 6 DIRECTIONAL FROCE VECTORS, 4 PHASES OF POWER GENERATION.
one needs these basics to build solid foundation of mind and body.