View Full Version : Splashing Hands Info

08-11-2000, 05:51 AM

Wing Chun, Jook Lum, Iliqchuan and others...the common root is easy to see, but hard for some to swallow.

08-11-2000, 07:58 AM

Please go into a little more detail. I think it is easy to see that all arts share a common root if you look far enough back. After all, there are only so many ways to punch or kick, bite grab etc your opponent therefore there must be some similarities between arts. I think where arts differ is on their philosophy of combat or applicaiton of techniques. I would like some more clarification on your views.



08-14-2000, 05:33 AM
Splashing hands is rooted in alien people's martial arts. Mongolian and tibetan temple guardians. Totally different races, mentalitys, ect.

For instance, how could one mimic the leg strength and endurance of mountain dwellers?

The chin-na techniques are totally different. In high altitudes you have issues of thin air, and cold. So there's more mobility, tire your opponent out, or jow after a punch and yang, to hood something.

Rather than the jow in tiger claw or the crushing dragon claw. Your fingers form as hooks, and catch stuff, like for mountain climbing.

Some of these guys were well over 6 feet. Closer to 7 feet. What kind of picture does that paint for you? No standing straight or stooping over. Low stance...

The other difference is its no brainer (well... for someone like me I guess). They manufacture hard hitting fighters in a fraction of the time. Big time emphasis on repetition. Patterns over forms.

If you want to find a common ancestor for short fist styles, look at the manchurian tai chi and qigong form.

Its *not* chinese..... Then again, southern chinese arent technically chinese anyways....

If you've done your reasearch you'd find wing chun seems to be a health form that people made up combat applications for.

I have a larger project on the subject i'm working on explaining my rational.

My time is up

08-14-2000, 06:55 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turiyan:
If you've done your reasearch you'd find wing chun seems to be a health form that people made up combat applications for.

I have a larger project on the subject i'm working on explaining my rational.

I would be interested in your suggestion that Wing Chun seems to be related to some form of health exercises. Does this make Wing Chun Internal since it is designed for health /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I owuld be itnerested in the sources of your information as nothing I have found, thus far, nor anything found by the ving Tsun Museum or others would seem to agree with you view. But then again all views may have merit. I would like to here more concerning your viewpoint.



08-14-2000, 09:55 PM
Wing chun started out as a health exercize, not combat? Interesting theory - but I suppose centerline theory, pak sao's, etc. were all added later on? But, if you take away all the "combat stuff" as later add-ons, then what much else is there left to start with?

southern chinese aren't chinese? huh?

08-14-2000, 10:08 PM

The WT chi-gung Siu Nim Tau is based on
an old version of the form Leung Ting found
in an old book,while doing research in

[This message has been edited by WT (edited 08-15-2000).]

08-15-2000, 05:27 AM

Please do not take offense but I think the "version" was probably there all along. Keep in mind that Yip Man is reputed to have taken over an hour to perform the SNT. Also William Cheung has a different version which, unless I am mistaken, may even have some footwork built into it. I would love to check out the specific version you are referring to though. I remember when I did SNT for Leung Ting back in 89 he told me the way I was doing it was "advanced". Funny thing is it was pretty much the same way I was taught from the beginning. Slow and steady. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



08-15-2000, 09:03 AM

Maybe this is the new and improved version
then. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I think it's showed on the "london seminars"
video tapes.

08-15-2000, 02:53 PM

Thanks, perhaps I could arrange to see this one day. It is hard to make a valid comment without seeing somehing for oneself. Of course, such things happen all the time. I could be totally off base and this could be something completely different /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif have to see it to comment further. At least to make any worthwhile comments /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



08-15-2000, 06:49 PM
In kuntao silat De Thouars we have the petjut kilap(whiplash lighting fighting system)I see some similarities with the splashing hands Style(mcneil Tapes)... the djurus are the upper body motion and the langkas the lower body motion (footwork)

08-23-2000, 02:48 AM
Splashing, Loose, or soft hands are the highest level in Fut Sao Wing Chun. It's introduced in the Bil Gee form and then reintroduced in the rest.

08-23-2000, 09:17 AM
sihing 73
hello again
we used to have a student who loved to lead the form & he would always make sure it lasted at least 45mins. to 1 hr also wong once was asked at a party to show what real vt looked like, he promptly did a first form that lasted for 3 hrs(needless to say by the time he had finished most had left the party)
in our school a form must at least last 4 15 min. (otherwise it is of no real benifit) & be done at least twice otherwise the traing of elbow & centre will be of no consequence.
i again would hate to upset anyone but if u train hard u will not only be hard u will be hard to beat & also u will develop a healthy body & mind, no chi no bull, if u believe in chi that is your right but is not it only another form or training anyway & if u are going to train the ma it may as well have some practical usages at the same time.

08-23-2000, 09:19 AM

08-23-2000, 09:24 AM
ps i forgot to add we do the form 4 half an hour without braking stance, 4 i'm sure the reasons to this would be odvious.
thanx again & keep training hard.

08-23-2000, 09:50 AM
hey benny
i didn't say chi wasn't real, as i have read far to many articles to dispute my beliefs as to its reality but i will say that,i believe, that there is no chi gung training in our branch of vt & if there is it is soley a by-product of hard training.
it is to my understanding chi is related to breathing(or life breath) which should be taught correctly to all students anyway & yes i suppoase as the first form is meant to be practiced slowly one could assume that it is a form of moving chi gung, it's just that at the same time we are learning to fight.
i know barry & bill might say otherwise but that's just my little way of adding a bit of a mystical side to things.
if u don't agree u know i'm gonna get u at training.(lol lol)

08-23-2000, 09:57 AM
you should know i always disagree. and it will be good to get you to training regularly
see ya

08-23-2000, 07:13 PM
Hello vingtsunstudent,

My first Wing Chun instructor had us do the SNT for at least an hour. The beneifts were obvious, strong stance, good elbow position and developement of self control/patience. Most of the rest did not seem to stress this length of time as mcuh but would let you get away with anywhere from about 8 minutes to 15 minutes. To be fair, I think some fo this ws to conserve class time and the expectation was to train longer on you own.

I have often heard it said that if you face an opponent who does SNT well you are facing a formidable person. Also, when you do not have a partner and wisht o improve SNT is a godo way to work on all of the basics and will even help your Chi Sau. It is interesting that if you check all of the various Kune Kuit you will find the practice of SNT referenced and reccommended to be done every day. The other forms are to be practiced but it is the SNT which is reccommened every day. Makes one wonder about the importance of a good SNT.

I was always under the impression that longer was better but 3 hours for SNT!!! That is long /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



08-23-2000, 07:48 PM
hey sihing hows things?
i personally am to lazy to stand in stance 4 to long, so 3 hrs to me sounds extreme to me to but when my sifu first went to hong kong he was a real freak, as he knew no-one & his only reason for going was to learn vt he used to stand in stance for up to 8 hrs a day so long in fact that he would collaps from lack of blood circulating in his legs also wong used to get other students to mop the sweat from under his feet.
no wonder wong called him the machine.
i truely wish you could meet my sifu so as you could experience his alomost unlimited amount of knowledge on the system.
you seem like a reasonable person & i look foward to exchanging more ideas with you soon

08-26-2000, 07:20 AM
I'm really sorry, but after checking the links at the beginning of this thread, I have not idea what the poster is talking about.

Splashing Hands...I don't know where this style splashed in from, but I wish someone would come up with a Chinese name for it.

I don't get the Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Jook Lum reference at all. I think sometimes things are easy to see when the viewer needs there to be an easy explanation, but this one is reaching abit much...

05-08-2006, 10:40 AM
Response post to Splashing Hands Questions.

I am Richard Baron the instructor of the Little Nine Heaven Chicago Branch. My website http://www.kungfupower.com/. I will take the time to answer your questions as long as they are respectful. You can email them to me at warriorofheaven1@aol.com I will email you a response and you can choose to post it if you wish. My Kung Fu brother Chris Lomas in England deals with pretty much the same set of questions we are getting from this site at this link.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51159&page=3&pp=15&highlight=splashing+hands He does a good job of explaining, so I will not repeat those answers, but I may clarify them if you don’t understand something. I will be happy to answer any other questions. You can also get information in the numerous articles written about Little Nine Heaven and the various systems of Kung Fu we instruct at http://www.littlenineheaven.com/articles.html L9H is also featured in the current May and June 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu Magazine. You can also tell by the depth and breathe, of the articles that there is plenty more evidence regarding the back ground of our systems. We also have schools literally all over the world.
As well as quite a bit of positive feedback.

Splashing Hands Questions.

First take a look at what system we are discussing. This is some text from my website to help fill in some blanks about what we are discussing.

Splashing Hands Kung Fu:
Splashing Hands Kung Fu is an extremely practical, no-nonsense, street-effective fighting system. It combines jabs, punches, elbows, hammer-fists, chops and finger pokes, thrown with blinding, machine gun-like rapidity, along with quick, shuffling footwork, and low-focused straight leg kicks. It prepares the fighter physically and mentally to engage any combat or tactical situation with or without weapons. You will learn that a fight begins as soon as the opponent begins fighting you in his or her mind, and as soon as this is expressed, you must explode into action. Splashing Hands is an infighting system. Working close to the opponent is of paramount concern. Double blocks, single blocks and strikes, along with sophisticated rolling hands techniques – simultaneously defensive and offensive, draw the opponent into an attack and pull him dangerously off balance. Once the opponent goes down, the fighter continues to stick to him, keeping up the attack until the opponent has been subdued. Splashing Hands was developed in the early 1700s at the Shaolin Temple of Northern China. Historically, it was only taught to a few students: the monks in charge of guarding the temple gates. But even after it was introduced to fighters not associated with the Shaolin Temple, it never became a widely-practiced art. Those who knew the effectiveness of the system were reluctant to share their knowledge with others. However, the style was taken to Taiwan where a former nationalist army General Wong taught a few selected students, among which was Haumea F. Lefiti.
The Lineage:
Splashing Hands was introduced to the United States by Haumea F. Lefiti (1930 – 1973). Know as ‘’Tiny’’ to his Friends, the towering over 6 foot Samoan was a great teacher of the martial arts. In his early 20's, he joined the US Marine Corps during the Korean War, and fought for his country. At one time when attacked by the communists he was separated from their troupe. Tiny roamed the hills trying to find his group. It was 80 days before he was reunited with the American troops. During the 80 days, he survived on plants and wild life, with nothing to drink except snow water. He was also active in many battles and fought to attain 'Pork Chop Hill.' He received many medals, including a silver star for valor. Tiny expected his students to be honest, patriotic, and to have respect and love for all people. He always stressed that the strong should always help the weak, that one should always be modest about one's abilities, and never be the one to start a fight, but also never to run. When he returned to the United States from Taiwan Tiny continued to train with Master Ark Yuey Wong. http://www.littlenineheaven.com/spteacher.html
http://www.kungfu5family.com/ Ark Yuey Wong Website.

Lao Tzu James W. McNeil was one of Tiny’s top students, and is now the lineage holder of the Splashing Hands System. Lao Tzu James W. McNeil has been learning, living and teaching the inner mysteries and secrets of the traditional, internal kung-fu arts for forty years. In the course of history, knowledge like his was normally reserved for the elite few within the closed circles of the oriental Taoist societies. Until McNeil came on the scene, it was unheard of for any outsider, let alone a white American, to be accepted as a student by the great martial art Masters of China and Taiwan. McNeil has had the rare privilege to study with such greats as Master Hsu Hong-Chi, ‘The Man With the Magic Hands' (Hsing-I & healing arts, Sifu Chi Chen-Yen (Tzu Men-Chuan -the rare and deadly art of ‘Poison Fingers'), Hsu Ting-Ming (Chinese psychic healing), Master Pan Wing-Chow (original Chen style Tai-Chi) and perhaps the greatest of them all, the living legend, Master Chiao Chang-Hung (Little Nine Heaven Kung-fu, Shih-Shui, Pa-Kua, and Taoist mediation). Sifu Richard Baron is one of Lao Tzu James W. McNeil’s top students.
http://www.littlenineheaven.com/sifumcneil.html Information on Lao Tzu James W. McNeil. He trains every day, his normal training day is at least four hours or more of practice alone, not counting anytime teaching. He has been able to do many things in his training that I have never seen any other martial artist do. Like break bricks with a poke from his finger tips, drill a hole through a brick with his finger, cause the Chi and blood to go into his hands causing them swell for use in both fighting and Chinese healing, and many other interesting and amazing feats of kung fu. You can actual see him doing these things in his iron hand video. He is also lightning fast, and the lineage holder of a number of systems of martial arts. I have been training with him for many years, and I can vouch for his integrity and his desire to help his students achieve success in their lives and their Kung Fu.
About Me www.kungfupower.com
Sifu Richard Baron is the founder and instructor of the Chicago branch of the Little Nine Heaven Internal Kung Fu School. He studied a variety of martial arts since 1988, since 1997 he has been training with Lao Tzu James McNeil, learning some of the higher levels of martial arts including Hsing-I, Splashing Hands, Ba Kua, Chen Tai Chi Shih-Shui, Tzu Men Chuan, Iron Hand Taoist Meditation, and a variety of other martial arts and skills. Sifu Richard Baron has taught more than a thousand students Splashing Hands Kung Fu.

Some video of Splashing Hands Kung Fu

http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syllabus3/index.html Make sure you observe both the simple and long techniques. The simple ones actually tell a person more about the style than the long forms. Also the speed of the system is slowed down for the clip it is actually much faster. You can see that the Splashing Hands system is completely unique, not a hybrid of Kempo or any other art. You can also refer to my kung fu brothers comments here about that as well. As far as a relationship to Kempo to the Splashing Hands system, it is possible the origins of Kempo are found in the Splashing Hands system considering that Ed Parker was one of the students ArkYuey Wong and Master Lefiti. I have never heard my teacher say anything about Ed Parker or Kempo for that matter. Two of my school brothers are ‘’masters’’ of Kempo, that in the past ran and owned Kempo schools and both suggested that the origins of Kempo may be found in Splashing Hands not the other way around. Again go look at the system and see for yourself. Doesn’t look like anything close to Kempo to me. I am not however a martial arts historian and am not making this claim about Kempo's origins, although I have seen evidence to prove some of that, if some one can prove this theory that would be interesting to some of those reading this.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51159&page=3&pp=15&highlight=splashing+hands .

Any further questions email them to me. If you are interested in becoming a student or checking out the school feel free to call or email. The school I run is small focusing on small classes 3-10 people, intensive classes, and private lesson. Every one receives lots of personal attention and the focus of classes is fighting for life and death situations (combat), and for improving health. I hope you have found this information helpful in your search for quality instruction.


Richard Baron

12-15-2006, 03:34 PM
Some video of Splashing Hands Kung Fu

http://www.manchesterkungfu.com/syllabus3/index.html Make sure you observe both the simple and long techniques. The simple ones actually tell a person more about the style than the long forms. Also the speed of the system is slowed down for the clip it is actually much faster. You can see that the Splashing Hands system is completely unique, not a hybrid of Kempo or any other art. You can also refer to my kung fu brothers comments here about that as well. As far as a relationship to Kempo to the Splashing Hands system, it is possible the origins of Kempo are found in the Splashing Hands system considering that Ed Parker was one of the students ArkYuey Wong and Master Lefiti.

Thanks for the interesting post and video site. I've taken a look at the video clips you linked to and I think the speed and complexity of a lot of those techniques is extremely effective and impressive. It does look very different from any other Chinese art I have seen, but then again I haven't seen everything and I am probably looking at it through the filter of my past experience in southern shaolin.

Does anyone have any further info on the origins and history of this art though? Does it seriously go back to the 17th century temple guards? Personally, I think that tracing ANY kung fu style back very far is filled with problems. Even wing chun -- as famous as it is -- is clouded with uncertainty as to whether its founders (Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun) even existed.

12-23-2006, 09:50 PM
Master Sam Chin


- jo