San Da: hurting or helping

[Ray Pina]

I started some new training this week, I consider it a birthday present from my master, that really got me thinking .... because it was so unique.

I look at where competant CMA is evolving to, and when I say competant, I mean willing to fight, and you have to say it's San Da.

But when I see San Da I don't see the differences, such as, where the twisting of Ba Gua, or where's the trapping of Wing Chun, the element strikes of Hung Gar, etc., etc.. etc.

So are we in danger of losing the Chineseness that made these Chinese arts unique?

Were they just not good enough to carry over into present time? Or have we lost them? Or losing them?

Is San Da the answer?

[Ralphie]

IMO, it's conditional: If CMA wants to maintain as fighting arts, they have to have a format that allows people to fight that way safely. This also implies there has to be methods that allow people to train safely and effectively as well. This is why CMA has San Da.

Another thing to think about is something that language goes through, analogical leveling. Things that are actually cumbersome become "leveled", as there are easier, quicker, and more effective ways of communicating ideas. There are better and quicker ways of training certain things now than there were 150 or 1500 years ago.

[red5angel]

No one practices them the way they should be practiced. Wingchun guys chisau and call it sparring. Bagua guys walk holes into the ground. Taichi guys get all sweaty pushing and shoving on each other. It's ridiculous what passes for fight training now a days.

[MasterKiller]

Ray,
Have you seen LKFMDC's training video? While he's teaching a ring-oriented method, it's heavily flavored with CMA theory and application.

[Losttrak]

Did you say losing Chineseness? :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

San Shou is cool. But I have seen a few instances now where it's called san shou but it's all co-opted Muay Thai stuff. wtf???

San Da is style specific imo. Although, this term has been used and pulled into the San shou thing.

San Da is style specific free fighting. So Hung Ga san da should look different than North Shaolin San Da and so on.

But if it gets dragged into the sportive combat arena then it will have to conform to a rule set and so on hence it becomes...well, kickboxing with throws. :D

I think Ross likes calling it San Da so he doesn't get mixed up with the wushu aspect of free fighting. :p ...or maybe that's what he always called it, what say you Ross? Why did you use San Da instead of San Shou?

In summary, it is NOT hurting Chinese martial arts to get themselves out there and get to banging. Where else you gonna learn how to actually fight? You gonna meditate on it a la Hero? bzzzzt wrong answer. ;)

[Ray Pina]

No doubt those guys can fight. Not saying that.

I'm just saying, things like Ba Gua's twisting really generates power, but will we lose this .... to where you have guys doing that training but not fighting, not understanding it.

Also, I think there is the potential for chop suey, if it hasn't happened already. I've never seen footage of old Chinese master doing roundhouse kicks, never mind Thai style kicks. Now it is common in San Da. But you can't compare their round house kick to the real dedicated Thai boxer.

Now, also, there is a push for grappling. But will their grappling ever compare to the grapplers. Is a little bit of everything better than a whole lot of your specialty, be it evasiveness, powerfull shots, etc., etc.?

[Merryprankster]

So are we in danger of losing the Chineseness that made these Chinese arts unique?

Nope. What you lose is silliness of "different principles."

Properly applied principles look almost identical. That is what San Da is showing you.

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.

[red5angel]

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.


can you reasonable back this statement up?

[Reggie1]

Have you seen LKFMDC's training video? While he's teaching a ring-oriented method, it's heavily flavored with CMA theory and application.

What MK said. The video does a great job incoporating a lot of different CMA principles into San Da.

He talks about mantis, tai chi, lots of different arts.

[Reggie1]

It's ridiculous what passes for fight training now a days.

...said the breakdancer. ;) :D :D

[Ray Pina]

Nope. What you lose is silliness of "different principles."

Properly applied principles look almost identical. That is what San Da is showing you.

It's not that major differences in execution are disappearing. It's that they never were valid.

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising. Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go .... who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?

Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

[Merryprankster]

can you reasonable back this statement up?

Sure.

Wrestling, Judo and SC all look very very similar. There are minor differences in execution, but I can identify what is going on in each one. Similarly, I like watching Sumo because I can see what is going on.

Why? Because a throw is a throw is a throw. They all rely on the same principles. The execution is slightly different - there are minor variations on a theme within each art, after all - but the basic movements must be the same or the throws won't work.

While it does not logically follow that this MUST be the same for kicking and punching, reasoning by analogy it seems highly probable. My own limited experience with non-boxing or non-MT strikers suggests it is true.

[Merryprankster]

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

Be reasonable Ray. Compare apples to apples.


I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

I HIGHLY doubt this. You might be having them explained to you in ways that you think are highly against the norm, but I'm betting an experienced artist can find more similarities than differences. A punch is a punch. A kick is a kick. A lock is a lock. A throw is a throw.


Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising.

Different methods are not the same as different principles of movement. If you choose to punch your way out of the problem and I choose to throw, that's one thing. But if you choose to throw you're going to look a lot like me, and in the opposing circumstance, vice versa.


Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go....


Only retards and submorons.


who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?
Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

You are now comparing fight strategies and preferences, not principles of movement.

[Ray Pina]

A punch is not a punch. On the most basic level you have different punches (upper cut, back fist, over hand, hook) then you have palms and open hand strikes and then you have something different which I haven't seen much of outside of my style but you can call it wave punching..... I've never seen it before.

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.

[Merryprankster]

An uppercut from one style doesn't look like an uppercut from another? A hook from one doesn't look like a hook from another?

There are analogous attacks in each art, yet I am to believe they employ different principles from art to art?

I don't think so.

You and your style might PREFER one sort of punching over another, but that doesn't make the principles you are using different. You still have to execute that punch right. And when you do, it's going to look and feel a lot like the analogous attack from another art, properly executed.

Not directed at you, but I'm in a crabby, foul mood, and I'm finding this conversation horribly frustrating. You can't move in ways counter to those principles and expect good results.

There are good principles, then there is everything else. Good training, regardless of stylistic preferences, employ those principles, with minor differences, not major ones, in execution. What you choose to emphasize - what your APPROACH to fighting is - is a separate subject entirely.

[Ray Pina]

Well, my argument is that we are rounding everything down to apples .... and its not only apples out there. What you see, what everyone has come to accept is apples, but there's more than apples out there if you want it, are willing to go look for it, are open to it.

As far as seeing the differences, I have a pretty good eye, would consider 27 years (wow, do I feel old now) quite a decent amount of experience .... and it wasn't all form.

And considering that I'm doing the type of fighting that I'm doing now (no gear/no rules) I, personally, would want some good technology and not just go out with what some guy just happened to sell me. Reverse punch, round house kick just doesn't cut it. Got that down pretty good by 6 years old.

I really want to get together with you because you are smart. I think if you saw first hand some of this stuff -- and I mean this in a friendly way -- you'd apreciate it and could lend some credability to it here on the board. Because even the stuff I'm going to post, unless you look at it in slow motion, it just looks like punching. You need to feel your arm going out by my arm coming in .... but how to do it without the stupid wax on/ wax off motion.

As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage. And don;t say it's against the stupid guy ..... 1st place Grapplers Quest, advanced, no gi.

[MasterKiller]

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid.
Email it to yourself, then post the link they provide:

http://www.yousendit.com/

[Merryprankster]

Sorry, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


As far as the grabber presenting the head. I have some great footage

I've never claimed that a grappler doesn't present the head. Not sure where that is from. Grappling in a non-striking environment is not the same as in a striking environment. There are several things I do in non-striking bouts that I would never do if somebody were trying to hit me.

It even happens across sport grappling boudaries. Wrestlers new to submission work get choked and armlocked with some regularity - they are used to keeping their heads up and posting straight out on their arms. I should note that the principles of isolation, pressure and control don't change. But the goal is different, so execution must subtlely alter.

All sport grappling does is give you a useable set of skills to work from. If you want to use them in a "no-rules" type of situation, then you have to practice those skills there. If all you do is grapple, then you certainly can get clocked or do something that will cost you dearly.

This isn't 1990.

[SevenStar]

I haven't read this thread yet, so this may have been said, but alot of us have been talking about this for years. Mp, ST00, myself and some others - fighting is fighting. On it's most basic level, it looks the same. your reverse punch may not be the exact same as my right cross, but they are very similar. Perhaps competition is pointing that out. Instead of trying so hard to be different, focus on what you can make work in fighting.

Having said that, that doesn't mean that your style's underlying principles shouldn't be there - they should be. But those principles are expressed through a set of combat effective techniques that are not unique to other styles.

[FngSaiYuk]

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.

Y'know, I'm really curious to see this 'new thang' you've got... What probs you havin' w/the vid posting? What OS & programs are you using and where are you trying to post the video? If need be I can offer some of my spare hosting space on my low bw nets for ya to make things easier. I'm really curious about this style of yours in action in real hard contact sparring.

[SevenStar]

Are the principles of Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Western Boxing the same? If not, which one should go?

apples and oranges, as they are two different venues. you know that.

western boxing and shotokan karate

judo and shuai chiao

these are more fitting comparisons.


I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

what is defined as success? And What is it that is so different from ANYTHING else?

Sometimes a problem can be handled using different methods. This is part of the problem I see arrising. Everyone now believes that ground fighting is the only way to go .... who won, Chuck Liddell or Randy Coutuir ....... how? Why?

Each of their aproaches were different. Each were good. You shouldn't throw out one just because of a loss to the other.

SOME people thought that grappling was the only way to go back in 1995. That view has long since died. As for liddel, he is a wrestler. he wrestled all through high school and was his team's captain. He was a division 1 wrestler in college and has trained bjj for the past 7 years. He is also a striker - a thai champ and has done some kempo. liddell does so well because he is awesome at defending takedowns - this is from his extensive wrestling background.

[Merryprankster]

What 7* said. He's just less crabby than me.

To clarify something he said - the "differences" shine through more in strategy, tactics and personal preferences, than proper execution of techniques.

[MasterKiller]

What 7* said. He's just less crabby than me. They make a cream for that, you know.

[red5angel]

...said the breakdancer. ;) :D :D

*******!!!! :D

[red5angel]

sorry to hit your button there crankypants. Would you hit the cranky button the way I hit the cranky button? Is it s style difference or a personal choice? ;)

[lkfmdc]

There are only two kinds of martial arts, good ones and bad ones

Good ones work in fighting, bad ones entertain simple minds that are looking for exotic diversions from reality

Ray, I really don't mean to sound harsh, but when people look at the surface and not the essence, it is a sign they have not been in the arts long enough. They don't see "their style" in something because they are looking for the form their teacher does. Frankly, usually what your teacher does probably doesn't even look like what his classmate, who studied under the same teacher, does...

Hate to sound like Bruce Lee, really I do, but it's like water man. Water takes different shapes depending upon where it is. BUt it's still freakin water man...

I'm glad I did the DVd and that people saw what I was getting at. Becuase frankly sometimes the world around me scares me, I wonder what's gonna happen to the real stuff

[Reggie1]

I'm glad I did the DVd and that people saw what I was getting at. Becuase frankly sometimes the world around me scares me, I wonder what's gonna happen to the real stuff

And free seminars for any future sales you should have from MK and myself pimping your DVD. ;)

Seriously, I don't want to sound like a product w hore for lkfmdc :D , but the video is great at showing how one can incorporate CMA philosophy into combat sports.

[SevenStar]

A punch is not a punch. On the most basic level you have different punches (upper cut, back fist, over hand, hook) then you have palms and open hand strikes and then you have something different which I haven't seen much of outside of my style but you can call it wave punching..... I've never seen it before.

Still trying to figure out how to post a **** vid. Tried last night for 10 minutes but wound up playing Ghost Recon instead.


what he's saying is that the punches are essentially the same across styles. The hook punch I learned in thai boxing is essentially the same as the one I did in longfist. it's executed a bit different, but is essentially the same. boxing has the jab, wing chun has the man sau. similar punch, different execution. reverse punch, right cross, etc.

[SevenStar]

sorry to hit your butt there crankypants. Would you hit the cranky butt the way I hit the cranky butt? Is it s style difference or a personal choice? ;)


um... that's kinda sick, man...

[red5angel]

um... that's kinda sick, man...

not as sick as when I'm hittin' your women's squeel button. I cna't even get an internet deal to show the video!

[SevenStar]

yeah, we already addressed that issue. there was a thread here about time travel yesterday, and I hypothesized that the reason you are able to get our wives so easily is that you travel 50 years into the future and hit on the while they are old an lonely. Even you could get some from a lonely senior citizen.

[red5angel]

there's nothing wrong with lonely senior citizens, they need to get some too. I'm guessing I'll still be banging most of your mom's and girls 50 years form now as well.

[FatherDog]

I can tell you right now the principles of E-Chuan are highly against the norm .... and yet I'm having success.

Please explain the principles of E-Chuan which go against the "norm" principles of fighting.

[rogue]

This isn't 1990. Yeah, 7* would still have his street cred if it was.

Ray, I've heard the uniqueness argument before, but how is a punch not a punch? The upset punch in TKD is similar to a shovel punch in boxing. Shift that right reverse punch up higher and it's similar to a right cross. So what is the differnce that you are seeing. How would a right punch to the head thrown off the back foot be different in E-Chuan than in some other art? :confused:

[FuXnDajenariht]

are u talkin about power generation or what?

[Sim Koning]

I'm not sure I get this, because whenever I spar in san shou, people from different style backgrounds fight very different. I have a Jow Gar and Hung Gar background, so I punch and kick differently than the guy with a boxing or wrestling background. Sadly, I have yet to see how guys from the Wing Chun class fight, since they are all afraid to give san shou/da a try. We have had a guy from a mantis school come and spar with us and he fought more like a point fighter with very light and quick strikes. Our resident Boxer is trained in wing chun but he never uses it =/ His hands are amazing though. I don't punch like the boxer, my uppercuts are different and I depend more on looping hooks and overhands. I kick more than I use my hands and when I do use them its usually for grappling.

I would also like to point out that if you are familiar with full contact fighting, you'll be able to see that there are many different kickboxing and grappling styles out there.

As far as styles like Tai Chi and Bagua, they CAN be used for fighting. I've seen our tai chi instructor use it in tournaments as well as real fighting, it does work, the problem is that there are very few people out there that know how to make it work.

[Ray Pina]

You and your style might PREFER one sort of punching over another, but that doesn't make the principles you are using different. You still have to execute that punch right. And when you do, it's going to look and feel a lot like the analogous attack from another art, properly executed.

When you punch, do you use your elbow to block the incoming strike while attacking with your fist in one movement .... sort of turning that one hand into two hands (upper arm (elbow and up) and lower arm (elbow and below)?

If so, then you are using the same principles as me. But from what I see out there, everyone goes right for the head and tries to score before being scored upon. This is a different set of principles.

Not saying one is better or worse. Just that there's a difference.

When do you consider yourself doing business? When you have the guy down? I consider myself doing business when I have asked and recieved both of your hands ..... styles were styles because they were different. Otherwise it would be called fist fighting.

Boogie Boarders, Long Boarders and Short boarders are all riding waves and using gravity to fall down the wave ..... but each has its own style, principles. Each board is riden differently. I ride both a long board and a short board .... its still surfing, but different aproach with each board.

[Ray Pina]

You also soon realize that how and when to enter is more important than you think. .
Awesome.....

[rogue]

When you punch, do you use your elbow to block the incoming strike while attacking with your fist in one movement .... sort of turning that one hand into two hands (upper arm (elbow and up) and lower arm (elbow and below)?
Ray, that's a common method I learned in boxing and even karate.

[SevenStar]

I don't punch like the boxer, my uppercuts are different and I depend more on looping hooks and overhands. I kick more than I use my hands and when I do use them its usually for grappling.

looping hooks - hay maker. overhand = overhand right - both are in boxing. There is nothing new or extremely different under the sun...


I would also like to point out that if you are familiar with full contact fighting, you'll be able to see that there are many different kickboxing and grappling styles out there.

doesn't matter. They all have similar strikes in common - that's our point. if you look at catch, judo, greco, etc. you will see commonalities in them all. The same can be said of striking styles.


As far as styles like Tai Chi and Bagua, they CAN be used for fighting. I've seen our tai chi instructor use it in tournaments as well as real fighting, it does work, the problem is that there are very few people out there that know how to make it work.

that is a very big problem...

[SevenStar]

When you punch, do you use your elbow to block the incoming strike while attacking with your fist in one movement .... sort of turning that one hand into two hands (upper arm (elbow and up) and lower arm (elbow and below)?

actually, yes. a good example is the uppercut. let's say you throw a body hook. I block that with my elbow, and that leaves me in perfect position to fire an uppercut with that same arm.


When do you consider yourself doing business? When you have the guy down? I consider myself doing business when I have asked and recieved both of your hands ..... styles were styles because they were different. Otherwise it would be called fist fighting.

and among those differences exist plenty of commonalities.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, I know of what you are talking about - I do it to some extent because I was taught to be an infighter (my regular sparring partner was much taller than me, with longer limbs. So I would punch to land, but use my arm to deflect (not block outright) the incoming (or potentially incoming shot). Works well on the outside too, but for me, more in the overhand sense.

You've got to understand though that my hands are only decent. And by decent I mean marginally ok. So asking me to DO this is a different issue.



This is a different set of principles.

No its not. Principles are much more general than that sort of thing. For instance, the japanese classify uchi mata and harai goshi as different throws, but they aren't really that different at all, once you understand the principles involved (which is why switching from one to the other is fairly simple).
Same for Ko Soto Gari, Ko Uchi Gari, O Uchi Gari.


When do you consider yourself doing business?

This statement doesn't mean anything to me because I don't understand what you are talking about.


Boogie Boarders, Long Boarders and Short boarders are all riding waves and using gravity to fall down the wave ..... but each has its own style, principles.

You don't have to learn something completely different to make the transition. You have to adjust what you are doing to "play by the rules of that game." That's it. The basic skill sets achieved in one, the basic principles of directional manipulation, are not drastically different.

A different approach using the same principles can hardly be considered something new. It's like calling stir-frying and sauteing totally different cooking methods.

[Ray Pina]

OK, if you guys say you're doing that than you make a good point. I just haven't seen it before.

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in. Not a two note move, more at once, like a chord.

But if you have it, you have it.

[Merryprankster]

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in.

Oh yeah, this is what I was hoping you were talking about! Absolutely - that's a major part of infighting. It allows the incoming punch to slip around your body, off your shoulder, etc, instead of making solid contact. Great stuff.

[Nick Forrer]

OK, if you guys say you're doing that than you make a good point. I just haven't seen it before.

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in. Not a two note move, more at once, like a chord.

But if you have it, you have it.

Ill join the we have it too bandwagon and say that this principle is very important in wing chun or at least the wing chun that i practice and is used on both the outside gate and the inside gate. Otherwise you are just exhanging blows with your opponent (what I have heard Gary Lam refer to as 'Gamble fighting').

My teacher talks about the arm having two tools: the elbow and the wrist. If you are blocking with the wrist (as in a parry) you have nothing left to hit with (on that same beat). If you are blocking with the elbow however then the wrist is free to hit so you CAN defend and attack in one beat with the same arm.

[rogue]

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in. Not a two note move, more at once, like a chord.
The two that I know and have used are hiji-suri-uke and fumikomi-shuto-uke.

[FatherDog]

OK, if you guys say you're doing that than you make a good point. I just haven't seen it before.

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in. Not a two note move, more at once, like a chord.

But if you have it, you have it.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=586103&#post586103

[Ray Pina]

OK. Everybody has it.

Then of course the next question is: why don't I ever see it?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the a$$ here. But I go watch San Da fights ..... everyones just punching for the head .... I did too when I fought my San Da match. I watch K1, I watch Pride, I watch UFC .... everyone just punching and exchanging shots for the head.

If we all have this, why aren't we bringing these tools to the show?

[MasterKiller]

If we all have this, why aren't we bringing these tools to the show?
That's the kicker...why don't people use this stuff? I frankly don't know. I use hooking and trapping in my MMA class and it works almost every time because most of the guys I train with use Western boxing for their striking. Now, I never trained in Western boxing, so maybe they hook and trap also, but when I do it against these guys, some of whom are training to fight professionally within the next few months, it works.

So why don't you see hooking in the ring? Why doesn't some Muay Thai guy start throwing side kicks?

[Merryprankster]

Dude, watch some boxing matches and you'll see what you are talking about. Check out some old Tyson, Frazier, Holmes and Toney. Holyfield used to be able to do it too. That was before his brain turned to oatmeal. Holmes was amazing. Very hard to land a clean shot on. Always taking punches on his upper arms and shoulders.



I watch K1,

Plenty of good work in K1. However, some of the K1 guys are better with their feet than hands. Something to remind yourself of.


I watch Pride, I watch UFC .... everyone just punching and exchanging shots for the head.

Little tiny gloves and rules:

1. More oriented on power. Without a big soft pillow between the other guy's head and your fist, it makes lots of sense to attack the head. The gloves allow full power shots to the head so your hands don't break, but do relatively little to cushion the blow, making a knockout more likely. They also do not protect the face as well as boxing gloves, so setting up a head shot is a little less important (I may not need to get you to drop your hands - I might just get to punch through them). Without the gloves, you'd be seeing less of this. (And more cuts).

2. Without the standing 8 or a 10 count, it makes more sense to attack the head using power because putting somebody on queer street can win the fight, not just rack up points - significant return on your investment.

3. Fewer rounds: Less time to wear down opponent = cumulative effect of punching reduced. This also encourages a power game.

4. Punching at the other guy's head means punching at yours becomes relatively harder - which I believe is a more general application of the principle involved with the technique you are describing - you are denying the other person territory in their attack. (two arms can't occupy the same space at the same time)

5. Landing a body shot with power requires you to be either closer (hooks and uppercuts) or to lower your level (jabs and crosses). If you are close, the clinch is a major factor and you might get thrown. If you are far away, lowering your level, planting your feet and sitting on a punch can make you eat a kick or a knee.

6. The alternative to that is to throw at the body without lowering levels or getting close - which results in a disconnected arm-punch that exposes your head for a counter of some kind.

So the gloves and the rules ENCOURAGE a head-hunting power game. Take Guy Metzger for instance - he was peppering Wanderlei Silva - actually doing VERY well, and winning the fight, IMO. Throwing exactly the type of shots you were talking about, using the principles you discussed - rocked Silva a couple of times.

Then, he ate a shot and it was over shortly after.

My knowledge of San Da is limited - I suspect something similar is going on rules wise, but can't be sure.

[Ray Pina]

4. Punching at the other guy's head means punching at yours becomes relatively harder - which I believe is a more general application of the principle involved with the technique you are describing - you are denying the other person territory in their attack. (two arms can't occupy the same space at the same time)


My understanding is, when you punch the other guys head without first controlling him, you open yourself up to be counter punched. Or, if the other guy's arm is longer, he just butterflies or Ts-out and lands straights on you .... there's a lot of room from shoulder to shoulder leading to the chin.

That's why I prefer to capture or check the incoming blow and then shoot the shot from there without drawing the hand back. But first check or controll the hands. This is the whole, "don't fight capital to capital" theory.

But everyone has their own fighting style.

MasterKiller:
I tried that link last night but after 45 minutes of downloading a 2 min clip it still wasn't sent. I'll have to join .mac for its 30 free trial membership and try that. But thanks for the tip.

[Face2Fist]

dont forget foreman, he would block punches with his arms and then attack and he would punch the arms to wear them out..

roy jones works the body and head, and has tko ppl with body shots. another one sugar shane knocked out de la hoya with a body shot

cro cop uses kicks to the head and body, he dropped herring with a kick to the body and brusied silva ribs..

i guess you dont consider those body shots

[Face2Fist]

khrastov (sp) beat ninja ruja with body shots he worked the head and body shots

[Merryprankster]

My understanding is, when you punch the other guys head without first controlling him, you open yourself up to be counter punched. Or, if the other guy's arm is longer, he just butterflies or Ts-out and lands straights on you .... there's a lot of room from shoulder to shoulder leading to the chin.

Now you are talking tactics, not general strategy. In general, if I am throwing shots to your head down the pike, I am pressing the action and MY shots are in the way. A person on the defensive has less ability to dicate the fight. That is distinct from counterpunching. None of this implies an unintelligent application of force.

Yes, if I'm a retard and come flailing at your head indiscriminately, then I deserve what I get. But that's hardly what I am talking about. For instance, if you have a reach/height advantage and I get inside your optimum range and start unloading on your head, THAT is a smart application - my hands are in your way and you are forced to cover and move or something before effectively responding. Further, my control over the inside space means that I can make your punches go off course with my arms/shoulders.


That's why I prefer to capture or check the incoming blow and then shoot the shot from there without drawing the hand back. But first check or controll the hands. This is the whole, "don't fight capital to capital" theory.

Who doesn't prefer to fight this way?

We are REALLY getting into specifics now, which is "drilling much deeper" than the original point, IMO.

[Ray Pina]

Why does it have to be a preference and not standard practice?

The idea I'm trying to get away from is the, "I'll just punch my way in and maybe deal with a shot or two," or, "I can afford the shot as I shoot."

OK, maybe today. Maybe tomorrow. But one day, there's an elbow or knee.

This was the intent of my post. It seems like we're actually moving away from the things that made martial arts so spectacular .... the smaller guy over coming the bigger guy. The old guy overcoming the young.

[Merryprankster]

You used the word prefer. I was following suit.


The idea I'm trying to get away from is the, "I'll just punch my way in and maybe deal with a shot or two," or, "I can afford the shot as I shoot." OK, maybe today. Maybe tomorrow. But one day, there's an elbow or knee.


Ok, yeah, but what's your point? That you do something different and everybody else is fighting stupidly? Because what you just described is, generally speaking, a bad idea, and few good MMAers do that type of thing regularly (it happens from time to time). The blind shot is pretty much a thing of the past. The run forward and throw punches at his head trying to overwhelm him thing is more or less passe.

Now you're just saying "ok, this is a bad idea." Which it is. But it doesn't speak to "some guys have it and some don't" in any way. So I'm not sure what you're driving at. I mean, if you're just thinking out loud, that's fine.



This was the intent of my post. It seems like we're actually moving away from the things that made martial arts so spectacular .... the smaller guy over coming the bigger guy. The old guy overcoming the young.

Tell that to Randy Couture, Sakuraba, BJ Penn....but I really think you're dangerously close to "movie fu" stuff here. Pie-in-the-sky idealism aside, when you have a fight between skilled opponents, age, conditioning, strength and size all play a factor, assuming reasonable skill levels.

[fa_jing]

OK, if you guys say you're doing that than you make a good point. I just haven't seen it before.

I've seen elbow blocking, but not taking a shape where the elbow planes the incoming attack out while the fist continues in. Not a two note move, more at once, like a chord.

But if you have it, you have it.

Check out "Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do, a comparison, part I" by William Cheung and Ted Wong. Great book (for a MA book) BTW. A very similar technique to what you describe is demonstrated by Ted Wong as a JKD defense against the round punch. I can look up the page# if you like.

[Ray Pina]

I'm talking about seeing it used against a resisting apponant in live action.

[Face2Fist]

I'm talking about seeing it used against a resisting apponant in live action.

correct me if i m wrong but i think you speaking in tongues, youre not being straight forward with your post.. i think you dont want to offend people which is cool, but at the same time theres confusion and misinteruptations on this thread.

every style trains different but most have the same techniques. ie. judo, shuai chiao, and folk wrestling have similiar throws. karate and kung fu same thing, just some people train them in a different way, body size and body types are always are factor on certain ways of attacking and defending.

[SevenStar]

OK. Everybody has it.

Then of course the next question is: why don't I ever see it?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the a$$ here. But I go watch San Da fights ..... everyones just punching for the head .... I did too when I fought my San Da match. I watch K1, I watch Pride, I watch UFC .... everyone just punching and exchanging shots for the head.

If we all have this, why aren't we bringing these tools to the show?

it's there. you gotta watch a venue where you are most likely to see it - boxing. There are alot of infighters in boxing and you will see it there. You see alot of headshots in mma because they are trying to just quickly lay someone out. If you watch a boxer, they use alot more body shots in addition to the headshots - they are specialists with their hands, an mma guy typically is not. Also, regardless of the strikes they do, they have more weapons to worry about dealing with and countering, which is likely the reason you are only seeing very basic stuff. Also, there are guys competing who have very limited striking experience - they may not know anything else yet... doesn't mean it's not there, only that you've never seen it.

[Ray Pina]

I understand what you guys are saying. But I have seen Ba Gua, and they generate power from twisting, their arms are like rubber bands, coiling one way to strike and then uncoiling the other way to strike. With an open palm it looks like a shuto (from my isshin-Ryu training) but it is different.

Hsing-I Wood element striking looks a lot like Wing Chun's chain punching, but one is a lot slower and heavier, generated from the foot/shoulder the other faster, more of a bicep/tricep motion.

Sme things are the same. Some things look the same but have different mechanics and principles involved .... and other things are just unique.

There are certainly things that advanced BJJ players have that I don't. Now I can go and try to get that too or I can focus on my own arsenal, but I don't say I have it to. I just don't.

I don't consider the TKD roundhouse kick and the Thai Boxing roundhouse kick and the San Da roundhouse kick the same thing .... I have taisted all three of those kicks ..... one is a snappy joke, another has more power but I can afford to take them but will feel later and another is something different, heavy, even from the small, skinny guy .... especially from the small skinny guy.

Now, I understand when all of you say its the same. It's a round kick. But something is different in there and that's what makes the styles unique.

[SevenStar]

That's the kicker...why don't people use this stuff? I frankly don't know. I use hooking and trapping in my MMA class and it works almost every time because most of the guys I train with use Western boxing for their striking. Now, I never trained in Western boxing, so maybe they hook and trap also, but when I do it against these guys, some of whom are training to fight professionally within the next few months, it works.

So why don't you see hooking in the ring? Why doesn't some Muay Thai guy start throwing side kicks?

what do you mean by hooking - the punch, or grappling - like an underhook?

as for the sidekick in thaiboxing - I dunno how much of a need there really is for it, in the grand scheme of things. Yes, it lands sometimes, as not all thai guys are used to doing it. but all in all, thai is a close range style anyway. long techniques like the jab and teep, while they are damage causers are generally used to keep someone at bay and to set up other techniques. Would using the sidekick radically change the sport? I doubt it - and that's probably why you don't see it. The addition of striking to the grappling game had a HUGE impact on the mma world. The addition of the sidekick probably wouldn't have as much of an impact. That said, I use the sidekick, but generally only use it defensively - which is the same thing that many use a teep for.

[SevenStar]

I understand what you guys are saying. But I have seen Ba Gua, and they generate power from twisting, their arms are like rubber bands, coiling one way to strike and then uncoiling the other way to strike. With an open palm it looks like a shuto (from my isshin-Ryu training) but it is different.

Hsing-I Wood element striking looks a lot like Wing Chun's chain punching, but one is a lot slower and heavier, generated from the foot/shoulder the other faster, more of a bicep/tricep motion.

Sme things are the same. Some things look the same but have different mechanics and principles involved .... and other things are just unique.

There are certainly things that advanced BJJ players have that I don't. Now I can go and try to get that too or I can focus on my own arsenal, but I don't say I have it to. I just don't.

I don't consider the TKD roundhouse kick and the Thai Boxing roundhouse kick and the San Da roundhouse kick the same thing .... I have taisted all three of those kicks ..... one is a snappy joke, another has more power but I can afford to take them but will feel later and another is something different, heavy, even from the small, skinny guy .... especially from the small skinny guy.

Now, I understand when all of you say its the same. It's a round kick. But something is different in there and that's what makes the styles unique.

I've seen people KOed from that "snappy joke" perhaps you just havne't felt a good one, but I digress. you are correct in saying that they are not the same. But, that is different from saying "my style has something that no other style does", as essentially, no, it does not. You may execute it a different way, but you can bet that other styles have it.

[Becca]

Could also be that the style has it, but that student doesn't choose to use it, or may not have been taught it. Maybe he/she was told it is not effective and felt no need to test that theory. May be his/her execution of that technique isn't very good or they have not had good luck using it. I read a comment on the Grapple arts news letter that would fit what you are seeing well.

Thing come in fads. One year may be the year of the hook kick, the year before that was the year of the shoot. Maybe the current fad is going for the head shots. If, in a couple years, you are still seeing a lack of infighting, then maybe you are on to something. But I believe everything runs in cycles. Right now most people aren't doing much infighting, and so you don't see many moves associated with it. Mayeb in 5 or 6 years, you will not see much distance striking...

[Akhilleus]

Everyone thinks what they are doing is so gosh darn special and unique...I say "fighting is fighting"...I'm a kung fu wuss, but the other day I was watching a boxing instructional tape...they did a move that looked similar to a move we did...now I can sit back and say oh but we do it this way and point out the slight variations but the bottom line is when you are fighting it will probably look pretty darn similar...

[Merryprankster]

Ray, the point is one of principle. Grappling principles are the same across the board. Period, dot. Striking principles are the same across the board. Period, dot.

What principles a style places emphasis on and trains more in is what makes a style, not the uniqueness of what they are doing, because there's no such thing as a unique principle.

You are right that you don't have "BJJ things" because you don't really do grappling of any kind. But if you DID, you would have "BJJ things." You would also have wrestling things, Judo things and Sambo things....because the principles don't change from art to art.

Similarly, an effective full contact TKD fighter has "Boxing things" a boxer has "WC things" a WC fighter has "Kenpo things" a Kenpo fighter has "MT things," etc. Why? Because good striking principles transcend stylistic boundaries. There are good principles and there is everything else.

As an example, I was recently with a friend of mine who does Kenpo. He throws a lead uppercut, combined with a step, that functions as both a block and a punch. Boxers do that too. I'm willing to bet other people do it as well. It works because it controls distance and dominates the inside line, while moving YOU off their centerline.

The reason things look the same is because they ARE the same.

[MasterKiller]

what do you mean by hooking - the punch, or grappling - like an underhook? Hooking the hands to enter a clinch or deflect/pull a punch, not under/over hooks in grappling.


What principles a style places emphasis on and trains more in is what makes a style, not the uniqueness of what they are doing, because there's no such thing as a unique principle. That's what we mean when we say "flavor." CMA has a unique flavor, just like Muay Thai has a unique flavor, but it's all about (or should be about) kicking and punching effectively. That being said, a CMA roundhouse is exectued differently than a MT roundhouse, which is different than a TKD roundhouse, so I can see what Ray is trying to get at.

[Ray Pina]

Well, in this case we'll have to agree to agree ..... what you guys have seen and learned and have come to believe is all the same. There's little to no difference. If you are basing this understanding on having spent time with a Ba Gua fighter (not a form performer), a Hsing-Fighter, a Thai Fighter, a ground fighter, etc., etc., then you have some real scientific grounds to say what you are saying. But if you are basing what you are saying on what you think, have been told or read .... then, you may be missing out on something. Only each individual knows what they have looked for or cared to look for or how deeply they looked having found.

You guys are in the DC area, right? Can you tell me who's Hsing-I and Ba Gua you have seen?

I'm going to Europe next week, but I was planning a trip down there and I'd be happy to show you some punching that ..... if you've seen this before or can duplicate it I'll treat you both for dinner. How's that?

[Merryprankster]

Let us know.

But I think you'll be sorely disappointed. I don't think you're defining principle anywhere near the same way I am.

My comments are based on extensive experience across many activities.

For instance, javelin, hammer, shotput and discus are all the same, more than they are different. But if you don't know what you are looking at or for, it all seems very different. That doesn't automatically mean that if you throw one well, you can throw the other well, but the principles apply.

Grappling is all the same too. I've done Judo, Sambo, BJJ and Wrestling. Not once did I ever have to "learn something new." It was all variation on a theme.

Hey, take music as another example. I can pretty much sum western music up in I - IV - V - I. Eastern music tends to move either in pentatonic or mode, but the intervals stay the same, as do the relationships between the notes. And there is lots of variation on the same principles there - but the fundamental aspects of the relationships stay the same. Harmony is still harmony and dissonance is still dissonance, and a sour note is clear in the mix, regardless of east-west, scale, key or mode.

[SevenStar]

Thing come in fads. One year may be the year of the hook kick, the year before that was the year of the shoot. Maybe the current fad is going for the head shots. If, in a couple years, you are still seeing a lack of infighting, then maybe you are on to something. But I believe everything runs in cycles. Right now most people aren't doing much infighting, and so you don't see many moves associated with it. Mayeb in 5 or 6 years, you will not see much distance striking...


I think I disagree with that - MA styles are faddish - judo in the 50's, kung fu in the 70, ninja in the 80's etc. but personal fighting styles are not faddish at all. Reason being that body types and personalities vary - can you picture tyson trying to fight from the outside? He can't. Not effectively, anyway. On that same hand, someone like lewis couldn't be an effective infighter. consequently, lewis is a boxer. tyson is a slugger. within the context of MMA, infighting ultimately means clinching and going to the ground, so if your goal is to remain standing, infighting may not be the best approach. within boxing and thai boxing, you will see plenty of infighting. within MMA and possibly san da, you may not see it as much.

[SevenStar]

Hooking the hands to enter a clinch or deflect/pull a punch, not under/over hooks in grappling.

If I'm picturing that correctly, we do that. hooking/pulling limbs is taught by some traditional thai guys, and my buddy and I both were taught it at our first thai boxing school, so we teach it if we are going over gloveless techniques. When you are wearing boxing gloves, hooking is harder to do and is IMO virtually worthless to teach if you are working with gloves.



That's what we mean when we say "flavor." CMA has a unique flavor, just like Muay Thai has a unique flavor, but it's all about (or should be about) kicking and punching effectively. That being said, a CMA roundhouse is exectued differently than a MT roundhouse, which is different than a TKD roundhouse, so I can see what Ray is trying to get at.

I can see what he's saying, I just think he's saying it wrong most of the time. It's one thing to have a similar technique with its own flavor. It's a completely different thing to say something is unique to your style and describe it as if it's some new revelation that no other art has yet discovered.

[Ray Pina]

Cool. I'm thinking of coming down your way sometime at the end of May/early June. Let's keep in touch and we can have our friendly comparison, get some food, etc.

I'm curious to see your stuff; like I said, I think you're a smart guy so I know your stuff will be good.

I can't really talk music or grappling, that's not my business. Though I still think Gracies have a special power or leverage training that they don't share with everyone .... otheriwise, how are they so succesful against fellow grapplers of equal or even bigger size? I don't know, just a hunch.

But I think I can show you two types of punching that you haven't seen before and rely on two UNIQUE and DISTINCT principles. If not, I'll gladly pay for dinner and drinks .... all I ask is that you be fair, and than post your opinion here.

And of course, if 7* is in the area I extend the same invitation to him.

[Akhilleus]

within boxing and thai boxing, you will see plenty of infighting. within MMA and possibly san da, you may not see it as much.

Maybe you're right, maybe not as much with MMA and san da...but you still see plenty of it...

I'm sorry I just don't get the point of this thread at all...Ray, can you post a vid maybe...I know that you are a fighter...I'm not asking for vid as proof of anything I am just really interested in seeing your stuff...

[Ray Pina]

I keep trying and getting security warnings or I tried e-mailing it but even the small clip was 270MB and it could only send 10MB. I'll figure it out sooner or later, just after working all day and training the free time that I have is for scouting chicks, surfing and at the least XBox.

I am getting some interesting footage though. I'm goign to bring my new Ibook to the Mac store at the mall tomorrow. Maybe they can hook it up for me.

As far as my fighting, I still got some ways to go but having alot more success. It feels good to be winning .... feels like when I was a little kid going to karate tournaments; I kind of expet to win or I'm extremely disapointed.

I've been having some success on stopping the shoot. I had a match with a big dude over from Bullshido, a 267er, stopped his shoot and banged him up good on his disengament. It was my martial arts highlight ... and my **** friend, God bless him, didn't hit record. I got the hell out of dodge, got in the car, checked the footage and my heart sank. I would have killed him if I got busted up and didn't get the footage.

[Becca]

I think I disagree with that - MA styles are faddish - judo in the 50's, kung fu in the 70, ninja in the 80's etc. but personal fighting styles are not faddish at all. Reason being that body types and personalities vary - can you picture tyson trying to fight from the outside? He can't. Not effectively, anyway. On that same hand, someone like lewis couldn't be an effective infighter. consequently, lewis is a boxer. tyson is a slugger. within the context of MMA, infighting ultimately means clinching and going to the ground, so if your goal is to remain standing, infighting may not be the best approach. within boxing and thai boxing, you will see plenty of infighting. within MMA and possibly san da, you may not see it as much.
You can see the fads more by not looking at the top level athletes, I think. They are the best and they got there by not following fads. But there are fads every were else, and not just in fighting styles. When I first started studying kung fu, the in thing at my club was spinning techinques. You weren't considered a "good sparring partner" if your spinning techniques were slow. a year later, it was sweeps. Now, after yet another year or so, it is chin na. If you can't add a good chin na kicker at the end, you didn't "finish it well." :rolleyes:

I have seen the same fad thing every wered else. If so-and-so got a KO in in telivised match, I can gerantee that the next day someone is trying that same technique and will cintinue trying it, no mater how badly it works, untill something else grabbs his attention. And then some one else will see them doing it and start trying it, as well.

I am a good infighter due to my very short hight and quick speed. I have had many people ask me what I did to get inside thier gaurd. every once in a while, the person will actually try to do it as well, even on people half thier size, because it always works for me. Then they come back and ask why it failed for them... I explain that they were too tall to make it work exactly the same way I make it work. I'm 5'1"; everyone is taller than me, so sweeping the arms up and to the side will almost always get me in close. Then I usually have to explain that I get inside because they block too high. this is not usually a problem for someone substancially shorter, so sweeping a shorter person's hands up will actually open them up...

[Merryprankster]

Though I still think Gracies have a special power or leverage training that they don't share with everyone .... otheriwise, how are they so succesful against fellow grapplers of equal or even bigger size? I don't know, just a hunch.

Well, for starters, many of the Gracies have been doing it since they were little.

However, there are tons of world champs and tons of guys who are NOT Gracies and many of them are little beating bigger guys regularly. They're really not doing anything special. I promise. The great thing about BJJ is its openness. It's like wrestling - and because of that, the level of everybody rises fast.

Also, no need for dinner and drinks. Just remember that just because *I* haven't seen it doesn't actually mean anything. My striking experience is somewhat limited - but that doesn't mean that it's unique :D. It MIGHT be, I'm just arguing that based on my experience with a lot of different activities, there are far more commonalities than differences, because there has to be.

[Akhilleus]

Becca,
While I agree that fads exist within the individual schools and maybe even across the whole MA community to an extent, I disagree that these fads are bad and that the top fighters got there by "not following fads".

Now if by fad you mean I rent a tape of UFC 1 then go in to my school and say all we are going to do is BJJ, then a month later I see a tape of UFC 14 and go back in and say OK forget BJJ lets do American Kickboxing...then yes that isn't really getting us anywhere...

but if by fad you mean focusing on a particular aspect of martial arts and emphasizing that for a while, then later you emphasize something else, but don't just completely stop practicing what you were doing before, that can help you grow and it also shows that you are open minded and not to fixated on "my style is best" or "we must do it that way"...

for example we have been emphasizing the clinch at my school lately because we trained with some muay thai guys and picked up a lot of great stuff...maybe later we will train with some boxing guys and get "hooked" on hand techinques...in the end if we do it right we will have good clinches and hand techniques...

Let's take another example, submissions...you could emphasize the armbar for a while in sparring till you get that one down pretty good...then focus on triangles...then focus on omoplata...then kneebars...in the end, you will have more options than someone that spent that whole time emphasizing the armbar...now yes, that person will be very good at the armbar, but if they can't get that they are screwed...

[Knifefighter]

But when I see San Da I don't see the differences, such as, where the twisting of Ba Gua, or where's the trapping of Wing
Chun, the element strikes of Hung Gar, etc., etc.. etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm talking about seeing it used against a resisting apponant in live action.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then of course the next question is: why don't I ever see it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the kicker...why don't people use this stuff?



You will see all kinds of things in practice and demonstrations (i.e. the slappy backhands and trapping hands in wing chun's chi sao, the "rolling" motions in tai chi, the twists and circle walking in ba gua), but these things usually don’t work against resisting, halfway skilled opponents who are trained in modern empty handed fighting and going at 100%.

The movement patterns you see will look like boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai when striking and wrestling, judo, judo, sambo, BJJ when grappling because those are the movement patterns that actually work at the highest percentage against an opponent who knows what he is doing and is trying to take you out.

That’s the great thing about full contact competitions against skilled opponents. They show what works and what doesn’t against a trained opponent who is resisting and trying to take your head off.

Competitions are also a great venue to test out new techniques that you have brought out of the realm of theory and drills and into sparring practice. Sometimes they pan out and other times, you learn that what works in theory and practice isn't very effective when your opponent truly is going at 100%.

[SevenStar]

You can see the fads more by not looking at the top level athletes, I think. They are the best and they got there by not following fads. But there are fads every were else, and not just in fighting styles. When I first started studying kung fu, the in thing at my club was spinning techinques. You weren't considered a "good sparring partner" if your spinning techniques were slow. a year later, it was sweeps. Now, after yet another year or so, it is chin na. If you can't add a good chin na kicker at the end, you didn't "finish it well." :rolleyes:

I have seen the same fad thing every wered else. If so-and-so got a KO in in telivised match, I can gerantee that the next day someone is trying that same technique and will cintinue trying it, no mater how badly it works, untill something else grabbs his attention. And then some one else will see them doing it and start trying it, as well.


nah. As someone who fights but is not top level, I still disagree. You are correct in that people will assimilate moves that they see top level competitors use, such as the "go go plata", but they aren't practiced and used the way you mentioned. It just gets worked in with other techniques. Within schools it may happen, but that's not the case outside.

[fa_jing]

The movement patterns you see will look like boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai when striking and wrestling, judo, judo, sambo, BJJ when grappling because those are the movement patterns that actually work at the highest percentage against an opponent who knows what he is doing and is trying to take you out.



I agree that most movement patterns will be as you stated, but I think that you can add a couple techniques outside of those you mentioned and be successful with them. I say this because my teacher was fairly successful at NHB fighting and his preferred fighting style was mostly boxing, JKD, and basic grappling, but he at times did pull off "TMA"-ish moves such as lop sao + punch, step up front kick, and one of his favorite moves, which is a low midsection punch that converts to an arcing downward backfist to the temple as you step past the opponent. But yes, the meat and potatoes was as you described.

[Becca]

... Now if by fad you mean I rent a tape of UFC 1 then go in to my school and say all we are going to do is BJJ, then a month later I see a tape of UFC 14 and go back in and say OK forget BJJ lets do American Kickboxing...then yes that isn't really getting us anywhere...
Yes, this is what I mean by fad, but also on a smaller scale. Focussing on one thing in class because it is a skill you need to work on is common sence. Trying to do butterfly kicks because you saw someone else trying to use them is just silly. Especially if your skill level is not good enough for you to be able to use it effectively. Style hopping in an attempt to be just like your hero-of-the-moment is just plain stupid.

[SevenStar]

Yes, this is what I mean by fad, but also on a smaller scale. Focussing on one thing in class because it is a skill you need to work on is common sence. Trying to do butterfly kicks because you saw someone else trying to use them is just silly. Especially if your skill level is not good enough for you to be able to use it effectively. Style hopping in an attempt to be just like your hero-of-the-moment is just plain stupid.


depends on what the technique is and the situation. I never used the americana until I started seeing people getting submitted with it. It is now one of my favorite techniques. Was I "style shopping"? No, but I saw something I could use and took advantage of it.

[rogue]

Didn't you also do somthing similar after seeing Vanilla Ice? And we know where that got you.

[Becca]

depends on what the technique is and the situation. I never used the americana until I started seeing people getting submitted with it. It is now one of my favorite techniques. Was I "style shopping"? No, but I saw something I could use and took advantage of it.
Right. You saw something you could use and adopted it. You didn't "try it" in the hope you could use it because someone you admire useds it.




Man, you drew me off my main point.... :eek:

All I was trying to say was that there tend to be fads in martial arts as in anything else... Well, that and that without a very good study, we can't realy be sure why sertain fighters choose the techniques they choose in to use in the ring.

[Akhilleus]

Originally posted by 7*:


depends on what the technique is and the situation. I never used the americana until I started seeing people getting submitted with it. It is now one of my favorite techniques. Was I "style shopping"? No, but I saw something I could use and took advantage of it.

I think you've touched on a big difference between MMA and TMA...with TMA, I am shown a move and explained how it works, then shown how it works on a non-resisting opponent using a pre-arranged attack...with MMA it is the same deal, with one major difference...I can then see the technique applied against a fully resisting opponent in a competitive setting...I'm not saying no TMA guys use there stuff in competition, I'm just saying that not as many do as with MMA...this means I have to take someone's word that what I am being shown works, then based on that drill this technique like crazy despite boredom and not being able to see how it actually works against a resisting opponent...hey if I'd never seen a triangle or omoplata applied in competition, I'd never have believed that they work...maby even an armbar...they just seemed too complicated...however, seeing them applied gives one the inspiration to practice these techniques in order to use them...

[SevenStar]

Didn't you also do somthing similar after seeing Vanilla Ice? And we know where that got you.


I've got my cred back now. :cool:

[Vash]

I've got my cred back now. :cool:

lol

:eek: :D

[rogue]

I've got my cred back now.

And all the girlies say he's pretty fly for a white guy. :D

[SevenStar]

aight, I'm making personal visits to jack a couple of fools on this forum... :mad:

[rogue]

...says 7* as he slips on his penny-loafers, hops into his Ford Pinto and pops in an 8-track of Wayne Newtons greatest hits.

[SevenStar]

not many people know it, but wayne newton is gangsta. The penny loafers are not as thick as my tims, so you can feel every part of my foot when I kick your arse, and my pinto is sittin on 24's.