Ching Dali on Ming Dynasty MA books

[K.Brazier]

Mantis108,
What are the 3 books of the Ming dynasty that Ching Dali mentions in reference to 18 Family Sonnet?

How do you conclude that Ma Qi of 18 family sonnet is Ma Xiang the bandit of Shandong?
I'm hoping it is something more than they both share a "ma" surname.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan,

The 3 books are :

Jiang Nan Jing Le (Administration on South of the River)

Ji Xiao Xin Shu (New records of efficacy)

Chen Ji (Record of Battle formations)

Regarding Ma Qi, it's only a suggestion not a conclusion that it could be borrowed from the fame of Ma Xiang. My take is that there are circumstantial "evidence" that such borrowing could have happened.

1) In the 18 family sonnet Yan Qing and Lin Chong are in fact famous characters from the green forrest. This shows that the author is partial to this kind of "heroism". Actually, there is a third character, Li Kwai, found in the 18 Luohan Gong text. This indicates that the author really favors Robinhood type of characters as well as popular tales of such.

2) I believe there are/were popular tales of Ma Xiang floating around Shandong area. It is said that Luohan Men's Sun YuFeng was a grandstudent of Ma Xiang. It's possible that Ma Xiang as well as Tanglang Quan were around in 1700s in Shandong.

3) There is a version of 18 families that has Ma Qi's short strike is most venomous (du/dai) instead of most extreme (shen).

4) Lastly, Ma Qi/Ji and Ma Zhei (horse bandit) are somewhat close in pronounciation what if Shengxiao just tweaked that a bit? So Ma Zhei De Duan Da Zui Du bacame Ma Ji De Duan Da Zui Shen. Duan Da is not clear define in the text anyway. So it could mean a range of things and almost any fighting style could fit that picture.

Again, this is only circumstantial and nothing solid. Hope this answer your question.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[buddhapalm]

Long time no post guys. I have been away for a while. Good to be back though.

Hi Kevin, how are you ? I hope all is well in Tainan.

Mantis 108, how did you hear of Sun Yu Fung being a grandstudent of Ma Xiang. Was it related to some of the postings/questionings by Northern Shaolin and myself. Or do you have another source. If so I would love to hear it.

Didnt Ma Xiang mean Horse Scent ?

I have some information piled away. I will try to look for it over the next week. From what I remember, Zhang Zhan Kuie was the student of Ma Xiang. He ran the escort service where Sun Yu Fung learned.

I was trying to do a lot of research on Sun Yu Fung before, because I believed that many of my inidentified forms may have come from him, since Sun Yu Fung taught Ma Kin Fung, who was one of the teachers of my grandmaster. I cannot really connect much to the remaining lineage of Sun Yu Fungs people, but it does not mean that it did not come from Sun Yu Fung. Anyway, any information on Sun Yu Fung and Ma Xiang would always be great to hear.

See you later guys.

Buddhaplm

[mantis108]

How goes it? I got the info from a HK forum and I also have read some old magazine about Ma Xiang but it's more fiction than facts. So... The guy on the HK forum study Luohan Men. So it's credible as far as "oral tradition" goes I think.

Warm regards

Robert

[buddhapalm]

If my memory is not wrong, I believe that Ma Xiang, grand teacher of Lohan Moon Sun Yu Fung was called "Green Forest Bandit" or Emerald Forest Bandit. Obviously he was a member of some secret society or perhaps more specifically Ching Bang Wui.

From what I was told, one version is that Sun Yu Fung's Lohan Moon was from Monk Yuantong T'an who taught in some cave areas possibly near Shaolin. At that area a Shaolin style called Lohan moon was being perpetuated.

Also that the saber skills of Zhang Zhan Kui the escort company founder and teacher of Sun Yu Fung were from the mentioned Ma Xiang.

I interviewed a grand disciple of Sun Yu Fung in Hong Kong and they mentioned that all of the system - Lohan Fist and Saber - comes from Ma Xiang. They never heard of Monk Yuan Tong T'an. So its hard to verify.

Anyway, I would love to know more of what was said on the HK forum. If you would be able to forward or translate anything else mentioned on there it would be awesome.

By the way, we have a two handed saber form called Chun Wong Dao, Emperor Chun's Saber. I cannot trace it yet. Is this weapon popular in the Shandong Mantis styles ?

I think my particular style/s have a strong connection to Shandong. My Sifu said they came from Shandong. We have a form called Wu Song Breaks Chains too. I have been trying to trace my forms for years, but not much solid luck.

Good to talk with you all again.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[mantid1]

Hello Buddhapalm

Do you have any info on wu song breaks the chains? I have hrard about it for years but never knew that it really existed. Do you know the form?

Thanks

[K.Brazier]

We learned a version of yen ching chuen with a move called wu song tuo kao.
Interesting since yen ching and wu song are both characters from Water Margin Epic.
Tai Shing Pekwar has a Wu Song Tuo Kao form with many of the moves appearing as if the mans' hands are bound.
I also have an old BW video of another version of this form from China.

It is also an event in Water Margin Epic where Wu Song kills the wicked gaurds escoting him to his place of banishment. No doubt this is where it all starts as far as MA having a form based on a MA novel.

[mantid1]

Mr Brazier

Thanks for the post.

I have heard of this form for a long time but did not know if it existed. I heard about it when I trained Pai Lum. Master Pai said that it started out with the hands tied with a sash or the like in a certain manner. As you went through the form using certain techniuqes such as butterfly blocks and palm strikes in a sequence, that at the end your hands should be untied. I could see the benefit of training the close butterfly type techniques like this.

Real or not I think it sounds cool. I have been able to trace many of my old Pai Lum forms to traditional sets. Who knows, could be the truth

Thanks

[buddhapalm]

Hi guys,
yes, I learned this form. It starts with the hands together, then after 5 moves the imaginary chains are broken on the knee, then the usual movements come into play. It is a very nice form, but I need quite some practice.

Kevin, I would love to see the old B/W footage of the Wu Song form to see if there are any similarities/connection to my version.

Hope all is well.

Cheers

Buddhapalm
teleka@pacbell.net

[mantid1]

buddhapaml

Thanks for that info

It does sound similar to the form that I have been told about.


I would also like to see the b/w footage if possible.

[buddhapalm]

Hi Mantid1,
I would love to hear more about what you heard about the Wu Song form, and from which style you heard it came from.

Cheers,

Buddhapalm

[mantid1]

Hi Buddhapalm

The form I heard of is a Northern set. It seems to have the hands "tied" longer than your description of your form. It has some jumping and turning techniques with sweeps.

I have been told that more than one style has the wu song set. One reason could be because of the link to the water margin epic (I think that is the one).

I have been taught to think of the wu song sets like the drunken sets. Everyone knows that most drunken sets are used for developing certain fundamental techniques, such as flexibility, deception, explosive power.......etc. Most drunken forms are developed around the core concepts. Even though they are completely different, you can tell they are developed for specific reasons and are very similar.
I know of some styles that have a core group of drunken "techniques" that can be put together in different sequences.

I have been told that the wu song sets are similar. They are developed around core concepts, could be close range or restricted fighting, or whatever. I dont know because I have not been taught a form like this. I am just repeating what I have been taught.

I would love to see your form or even just parts of it to see what it is like.

You can PM if you like :)

Have a good day

[r.(shaolin)]

buddhapalm wrote:
"It starts with the hands together, then after 5 moves the imaginary chains are broken on the knee, then the usual movements come into play."

Hi buddhapalm,

This is the same way our set begins. I think we have spoken about this before.
Cai Longyun wrote about about another set with the same name. In this set the hands are held together differently from what we do. It appears that the hands are held together for 30 or more movements in the beginning of the set. He does not say where this set comes from other than that Hu Hanping "a famous" wushu master from Shanghai did this set and started competing with it in 1953. The set in his book was part of the systematization of wushu whick Cai Longyun was actively part of.

r.

[buddhapalm]

Dear r.(shaolin),
Thanks for your response. Interesting about the set by Cai. Yes that one in the book is totally different.

Near the end we have three moves in succession which are a kind of cross-over drunken step, with a swinging punch shooting down with each step. If the left foot is forward, then the right fist swings down, when the right foot is forward, then the left fist swings downwards. then after three drinken steps and punches we step into a left forward stance with left uppercut. Then a move called "Cat washes the face" (I think).

Does this sound familiar ?

We hold the fists together at the beginning, but they are not crossed, they are connected, like two sun-fists side by side.

Cheers

Buddhapalm