Application of the eight trigrams concept

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Can someone explain the eight trigrams concept in relation to the 8 reference points on the body in terms of and how it's used in relations to striking with the hands and feet (jing patterns) as well as footwork in the in the internal arts. Any insights into the understanding of the 8 trigram concept in relation to applications would be great.

Is the eight reference points/jing patterns used when sticking, which is done in arks, circle, and sphere.

[count]

Maybe, if you can explain what are your 8 mother palms and where are they from?

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
how is the 8 trigram concept used in tai chi and ba gua in practical applications

[count]

Hi,
how is the 8 trigram concept used in tai chi and ba gua in practical applications

Are there very many impractical applications in your bagua or tai chi?

[kung fu fighter]

Are there very many impractical applications in your bagua or tai chi?

No, but there sure are alot of mysterious explainations when it comes to the 8 trigram and 5 element stuff in relation to fighting applications, when the real explanations should be very simple. I think these scientic formulas known as the 8 trigram and 5 element were used as a simple method to transmit the understanding of geometry and scientific knoledge and then became very mysterious when people don't understand what the true meaning is, which is the case in alot of the internal arts. Can you give me a detailed explaination of how these theories are used and how they relate to fighting in the internal arts.

[SPJ]

Hi;

Your questions are too broad to answer.

In Tai Chi, 8 trigrams represent 8 directions and 8 Jing methods directed at the 8 directions.

The 4 fronts are north, south, east and west. There are Peng Lu Ji An. Peng to your front. Lu to your left or right rear. Ji or An to your left or right.

The 4 corners between 4 fronts. There are Cai Lie Zhou Kao.

There are 5 steps in Tai Chi. They are equivalent to Wu Xing or metal, wood, water, fire, and earth.

The center or Zhong Ding is the earth. Jin Tui Gu Pang or advance, retreat, look to the left and gaze to the right.

So Ba Gua and Wu Xing are used commonly in CMA as denominators for directions and methods etc.

They are not to confuse or mystify. They are used to categorize concepts in orders of 8 or five. They also represent relationships of assimilation, antagonism, helping or retarding etc.

If the opponent Peng, you then Lu.

If the opponent Lu, you then Ji.

If the opponent Ji, you then An.

The 8 trigrams and 5 elements are called Tai Chi 13 Shi.

Or Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao Jin Tui Gu Pang Ding are called Tai Chi 13 postures.

And yes, all Tai Chi moves contain some of the 13 Shi.

As you may see, the use of Ba Gua and Wu Xing is to help us study and practice.

They are not to confuse or mystify.

Although Qi would be a different story.

:D

[count]

I have heard mysterious explanations before, mostly on the internet. But if a teacher explains something and it's still mysterious, I know I would be looking around for a new teacher. The way I understand this is they represent even balance in various situations.

In terms of your question, where I am, the direction I'm going, and where I end up should be a simple representation. With your opponent equaling the other half of the equation.






or, what SPJ said if you think about it.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi SPJ,
Are the 5 element and 8 trigram applied the same way in ba gua as it is in tai chi, and if not how are they applied in ba gua?

Also in regards to the 5 element, what direction of stepping corrispondand to what element?

[SPJ]

In Tai Chi;

Advance or Jin is the metal.

Retreat or Tui is the wood.

Move to the left or Gu is the water.

Move to the right or Pang is the fire.

Establishing the center or Zhong Ding is the earth.

Count is correct. We move to shadow the opponent's move.

We are maneuvering to be in our front sides and to the backside of the opponent.

:)

[SPJ]

Ba Gua in Ba Gua Zhang has many reference points.

Qian Dui Li Zhen Sun Kan Gen Kun.

In pre-heaven Ba Gua map, Qian is the head. Kun is the abdomen. Zhen is the foot. Sun is the hip. Kan is the ear. Li is the eye. Dui is the mouth. This is important to cultivate internal system. Nei Gong. There is Ba Gua in human body.

The post-heaven Ba Gua map, it is used to study the ways of change. It is used in applications externally. Wai Gong.

In Cheng Ting Hua's Ba Gua;

Qian is the lion posture.

Kan is the snake posture.

Gen is the bear.

Zhen is the dragon.

Sun is the pheonix.

Li is the chicken.

Kun is the kirin.

Dui is the monkey.

In Yi Jing or the book of change, Qian is the horse. Kun is the cow. Zhen is the dragon. Sun is the chicken. Li is the bird. Kan is the pig. Gen is the dog. Dui is the sheep.

:)

[SPJ]

Each posture in Ba Gua Zhang has relevent Wu Xing and Ba Gua signs and related acupuncture meridans.

Each posture may be practiced at upper, mid and low levels. or Shang Zhong Xia Pan 上中下盘.

For example;

1. Lion carrying the ball or Shi Zi Bao Qiu 狮子抱球;

Xia Pan or low level; Qian Gua; metal; It is to practice hand Tai Yin lung meridian Nei Gong.

2. Lion catching the ball or Shi Zi Pu Qiu 狮子扑球:

Zhong Pan or mid level; Qian Gua; metal; same as above.

3. Lion rolling the ball or Shi Zi Gun Qiu 狮子滚球;

Shang Pan or upper level; Qian Gua; metal; same as above.

4. Snake hiding in the grass or Bai She Pu Cao 白蛇扑草;

Xia Pan; Kan Gua; water; It is to practice the foot Tai Yin bladder meridan and foot Shao Yang kidney meridian.

5, Snake sticking out its tongue or Bai She Tu Xin 白蛇吐信;

Shang Pan or upper level of the snake posture.

:)

[count]

SPJ,

Is that your entire set of bagua qigong/neigong? Do you practice 'static' postures based on the 5 elelments + external elements, and change postures for the supporting/creative cycle organ? Besides the physical upper, middle and lower levels of postures, how else does this method manifest yin and yang expressions of the trigrams in your body? Is this only a collection method of qigong or can it be used dynamically to apply to your martial art? How much time do you spend on how many different qigong/neigong sets?

[SPJ]

I was using examples to illustrate what Ba Gua and Wu Xing may represent.

The human anatomy, 8 animal postures etc.

Each posture or Xing may have 8x8=64 palms and then x3 up, mid, low.

It depends on the style or school of Ba Gua.

Lion posture or Shi Xing Zhang has 8x8 palm methods, too.

The fixed posture is practiced with walking or standing. The fighting apps would be in the change of 8x8 palm methods.

As you know, there are several moves in each Zhang or palm before the end move.

I will answer your Q's later.

:)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Can someone tell me what the broken and unbroken lines in the 8 trigram means and how they relate to each other in martial arts. I know each trigram and it's direct opposite trigram are yin and yang, but how do the trigrams relate to each other side by side. What are the eight simbols of the 8 trigram and how to they corralate to each other.

What's the difference in how the 8 trigrams and 5 element are applied to tai chi, bagua, and xing-i. What's the similarities as well as differences of the i-ching in the application of these 3 internal arts.

[Buddy]

Why think about philosophy if your goal is martial skill?

[count]

Good question Buddy. The idea of hurting or killing someone else makes me think about things philosophically sometimes.


Hi,
Can someone tell me what the broken and unbroken lines in the 8 trigram means and how they relate to each other in martial arts. I know each trigram and it's direct opposite trigram are yin and yang, but how do the trigrams relate to each other side by side. What are the eight simbols of the 8 trigram and how to they corralate to each other.

What's the difference in how the 8 trigrams and 5 element are applied to tai chi, bagua, and xing-i. What's the similarities as well as differences of the i-ching in the application of these 3 internal arts.
Straight lines or circles, each represent the same things. A circle is just a line that begins and ends in the same place. The lines are either solid which equals yang, or they are broken, which equals yin. To me, it only represents a balance. The trigrams of the bagua can relate to each other in two ways. By the 'Fu Hsi' arrangment, which is balanced by opposing polarity or by the later, 'King Wen' arrangment which is more circular and more directly related to martial arts. In martial arts it relates basically as above. where am I? Which direction am I going and where I end up? My opponent may be another in relationship. You might overlay the same balance in your own training with your body representing the lower, middle and upper third of the trigrams. Or some may think about them as visualizations. However you choose to think about the theory and the philosophy, they are only ways of understanding what already is. It would be to much to answer the kind of questions you are asking here. It's much better to ask as you go along with your training, and make certain connections for yourself.

Here is a chart that shows how to build the bagua with the possible combinations of yin and yang.

http://www.kabooom.com/images/progression.gif

Here's another that show the 5 elements

http://www.kabooom.com/laterheaven2.gif

Here is one that shows the trigram in relation to the circular version

http://chikungintl.com/images/fullchart.jpg

[SPJ]

KFF;

The trigram and hexagram are used as ways or elements of changes or derivations.

The full line is Yang. The broken line is Yin. You put 2 lines together, you have 4 elements of change. The 2 full lines, one full/one broken, one broken/one full, 2 broken lines are 4 Xiang.

If you put 3 lines together, it is called trigram. You have 8 gua or signs. We name them: Qian Dui Li Zhen Sun Kan Gen Kun.

They represent elements of nature and characteristic of each element. The heaven, earth, thunder, etc.

If you double that or put 6 lines together: the upper 3 and lower 3, you then have the hexagram or 64 changes.

To know Ba Gua Zhang, Tai Chi Quan, Xing Yi Quan, we have to study and practice from a good teacher for some years or decades.

To understand is one thing, to practice is another.

Knowledge of MA is one thing. Practice to have skills is another.

If you have good basic skills, apps or changes will become apparent.

Without practice, all the knowledge is in vain.

:)

[SPJ]

Count;

It is totally up to the practitioners.

I usually select 4 or 8 animal postures as a set and practice. They are end move or Ding Shi or single fixed move for each posture.

I usually walk 3 circles clockwise and then counter clockwise. You may walk one clock wise and then counterclockwise for 3 times.

I usually walk for 25 min, sometimes 45 min.

The standing postures for 2 or 3 minutes.

The rotation of waist from 30 degree, 45 degree and 90 degree. Some would rotate more then 90 degree.

I practice them variably.

I also select 8 big palm or mother palm to practice. Each big palm or mother palm has several moves in a set.

Some schools of Ba Gua has 3 big sets, one is called step to ground (Ta Di Zhang Shi), single exchange and double exchange sets.

Some times I just pick one big palm and walk for 45 min or so.

:)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
In Tai Chi;

Advance or Jin is the metal.

Retreat or Tui is the wood.

Move to the left or Gu is the water.

Move to the right or Pang is the fire.

Establishing the center or Zhong Ding is the earth.

We move to shadow the opponent's move.

We are maneuvering to be in our front sides and to the backside of the opponent.
In Tai Chi, 8 trigrams represent 8 directions and 8 Jing methods directed at the 8 directions.

The 4 fronts are north, south, east and west. There are Peng Lu Ji An. Peng to your front. Lu to your left or right rear. Ji or An to your left or right.

The 4 corners between 4 fronts. There are Cai Lie Zhou Kao.

There are 5 steps in Tai Chi. They are equivalent to Wu Xing or metal, wood, water, fire, and earth.

The center or Zhong Ding is the earth. Jin Tui Gu Pang or advance, retreat, look to the left and gaze to the right.

If the opponent Peng, you then Lu.

If the opponent Lu, you then Ji.

If the opponent Ji, you then An.

The 8 trigrams and 5 elements are called Tai Chi 13 Shi.

Or Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao Jin Tui Gu Pang Ding are called Tai Chi 13 postures.

What the's bagua Zhang equivelent and uses of the 8 trigram and 5 element.

what's the relationship between the 8 trigram and 5 element.

How does the bagua zhang system use the 8 trigram and 5 element theory in it's footwork and energies?

[SPJ]

There are many ways of using 8 and 5 categorizations in Ba Gua Zhang.

The answers will be the whole spectrum of fighting methods.

8 animal postures, 5 animal postures.

8 palm methods, 8 elbow methods, 8 basic kicks etc.

At 3 levels, upper, mid and low or heaven, people and earth. Tian Ren Di.

Each character of methods has 8 applications.

On and on.

8 and 5 also help or antagonize one another.

For example a Tiao Zhang is against upper lateral attack from fists or feet.

For example---

Learn Ba Gua Zhang or Xing Yi from a teacher, you will know more.

:)

[SPJ]

People or Ren is for the mid level:

There are 8 palm methods for the mid level: chest and abdomen.

1. Liao Zhang: metal, overcomes Xio Zhang, used against lateral attacks from fists and feet for mid or low level.

2. Tiao Zhang: water, overcomes Chuo Zhang, against straight punch and penetrating palm.

3. Xio Zhang: wood, overcomes Pian Xuan Zhang, against Bai fist, chopping palm, and throwing palm.

4. Chuo Zhang: fire, overcomes Liao Zhang,

5. Pian Xuan Zhang: earth, overcomes Tiao Zhang.

etc. etc.

[No_Know]

Solid line yang. Broken line yin.

light/dark; in,out; advance,yield; higher, lower...

Categorize each attack with a Kua attribute or element. The elements have a cycle of destruction and a cycle of creation. http://www.dragontigerkempo.org/dragontigerkempo_027.htm

"Fire burns Wood Earth dams Water Metal cuts Wood Water corrodes Metal Wood penetrates Earth"

As for what I indicate, according to the above, if someone used a water type/quality/attribute attack you might use an earth type/quality/attribute attack to destroy it (whatever that means in this case).

When you are being attacked or when they are being strong they are weak at the base of their attack or along that line. Of course when they are attacking, you have to get through or by...there can be yin and yang interplay in action. Conceptualize perhaps. You must yield some at least when attacked straight. When they wind-around or turn then straight counter-to can be used to evade best~.

Bend (broken line) counters straight (unbroken line) when they try to lock or break a joint... When they go for your legsto hoist-you-up straight-down into the grab and Widen as the close to disrupt.

Perhaps stuff like that.

These are concepts I might have somewhat at least in part some might think.

[SPJ]

Liao is from below going upward near waist high to hit the groin.

Tiao is going upward from waist up to neutralizing high or mid straight attack to your front.

Xio is like peeling off the skin of an apple, it is lateral to the opponent's move and Jing.

Chuo is penetrating forward as if stabbing with a vertical palm.

Pian Xuan is to move the palm around horizontally as if a leave falling off a branch of a tree.

Liao (metal), Tiao (water), Xio (wood), Chuo (fire), Pian (earth).

The metal chops the wood. Liao against Xio.

the water puts out the fire. Tiao against Chuo.

The wood or tree grows from the earth. Xio against Pian Xuan.

The fire melts the metal. Chuo against Liao.

the earth buries the water. Pian Xuan against Tiao.

If the opponent Liao, you then Chuo.

If the opponent Chuo, you then Tiao.

If the opponent Tiao, you then Pian Xuan.

It the opponent Pian Xuan, you then Xio.

If the opponent Xio, you then Liao.

Back to the beginning.

Having fun yet.

:D

[SPJ]

These are example pictures mentioned above.

They are only to illustrate the relationships of 5 elements and 5 palm methods.

and yes, there are more variations.

Have fun.

Liao (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/ea93c386.jpg)

Chuo (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/4cf9ede2.jpg)

Tiao (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/3-B.jpg)

Pian Xuan 1 (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/d0e1d05f.jpg)

Pian Xuan 2 (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/cc95dc3d.jpg)

Xio (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/SPJ/cf36f6a3.jpg)

;)