Creatine thoughts

[Toby]

I took it for about 6 weeks straight. Stopped two days ago. I ended up taking about 6g/day. I thought it was helping my performance, but I couldn't be sure if that was just psychosomatic. Anyway, results after the whole time indicated it probably wasn't psychosomatic.

Pros:
(i) I gained about 7lb. I'll be interested to see if I lose much/any. I have changed my diet a bit, though.
(ii) I benched a PR - 281lb @ 189lb bw.
(iii) I squatted 340lb x 5 with good form - felt better than I have for a long time (since losing weight earlier in the year).
(iv) I DL'd 363lb x 4 easily, although I screwed up the last rep and tweaked my back. That equated to a PR too. DL has felt really good for me lately. I should've gone for a 1RM.

Cons:
(i) My organs started to feel a bit funny (tender), which is why I stopped. Mainly on my lower left (spleen? kidney?). This worried me a bit. I've been eating lots of protein (for a change :p) and that combined with the creatine might've put quite a load on me.
(ii) I coped with the dehydration, but it was kind of a pain at times. I drank a lot.

I'm going to take a month off or so and see how my guts go, and then maybe cycle a month on/month off and see whether I encounter the same problem. If so, I'll stop. Maybe mickey's right ;). Originally I was intending to cycle 2 mths on/1 off.

I've been doing different training lately, lots of internal stuff, so that's changed my lifting a little bit maybe. It's changed my MA quite a bit too, and maybe forcing me to use some muscles that I haven't before so I don't know what effect that's had and what's been purely creatine. Also, the weight gain obviously affected my lifts a bit.

It's interesting stuff anyway. Unfortunately, I work in 2 week cycles, so if I'm cycling 1 mth on/1 off I'll only go through 1 squat cycle and 1 DL cycle. Makes it kind of hard to push the envelope and compare results. It'll have to be a long term experiment provided I don't get the sore guts thing again.

[IronFist]

Did you really feel dehydration? I didn't notice any when I was on it. Then again, I didn't do cardio then, anyway.

[Toby]

Then again, I didn't do cardio then, anyway.And now you do? Running 1 mile once isn't "doing cardio" :D. But yeah, I did notice. Pretty regularly during MA class at the end of the day. Pretty often mid-morning. Just a dry mouth like you sometimes get after taking e.g. antihistamines. And that despite intentionally drinking more than usual.

[Mo Lung]

Originally I was intending to cycle 2 mths on/1 off. Woah! Way too long on, man. A better cycle is two weeks on/two weeks off. That way your body never truly relies on the external supply, but you get a regular creatine boost. Don't try to match it in any way to your training cycles.

And drink more water!

[Toby]

When I first created a thread on creatine, no-one complained when I said I'd do 2mths on/1 off (including you :p). But yeah, 2 weeks on/2 off might be worth a go. Except I'd end up aligned with either my squat or DL cycle and always miss the other.

[IronFist]

And now you do? Running 1 mile once isn't "doing cardio" :D.

All I have to do is run one more mile and then I'm "doing cardio." I can say it's a regular part of my workout, just on a very spaced out cycle (if I feel like doing it once a month).

Haha, I might go running again tomorrow tho. wtf is wrong with me? I'd go today but my calves are still sore from the first time.

[Samurai Jack]

Woah! Way too long on, man. A better cycle is two weeks on/two weeks off. That way your body never truly relies on the external supply, but you get a regular creatine boost. Don't try to match it in any way to your training cycles.

What?!?

I've been away for a few weeks, so maybe I missed something...

Since when do you have to cycle off creatine? What's the purpose? I've used it for literally years at a time with no ill effects. It's just a nutrient, so what gives with the cycling?

[Samurai Jack]

Plus, without a loading phase it'll take at least three weeks for you to build a creatine surplus in the muscle, so 2 on/ 2 off would just be a waste of money.

Please explain...

[mickey]

Hi Toby,

Thank you for sharing both the pros and the cons of your experiences with us. I am really glad that you are okay.

mickey

[Mo Lung]

When I first created a thread on creatine, no-one complained when I said I'd do 2mths on/1 off (including you :p).Sorry, must have missed that the first time!
But yeah, 2 weeks on/2 off might be worth a go. Except I'd end up aligned with either my squat or DL cycle and always miss the other.So every once in a while chuck on a 3 week phase in the cycling.

[Mo Lung]

What?!?

I've been away for a few weeks, so maybe I missed something...

Since when do you have to cycle off creatine? What's the purpose? I've used it for literally years at a time with no ill effects. It's just a nutrient, so what gives with the cycling?
Plus, without a loading phase it'll take at least three weeks for you to build a creatine surplus in the muscle, so 2 on/ 2 off would just be a waste of money.

Please explain...
Pull up Google; type in "cycling creatine"; read.

Most people will suggest a one month on/one month off cycle, or two months on/one month off, etc.

However, the creatine stored in the muscle takes at least 3 or 4 weeks to completely disappear, so 2 weeks on/2 weeks off has a kind of overlapping stacking effect.

Anyway, read the Google results.

[Samurai Jack]

I see. So you have time to make recommendations, but not explain them.

Here's mine. Forget the cycling. There is no reason to cycle Creatine whatsoever. Creatine is a necessary nutrient that is stored in muscle tissue over time. Your body can make enough for ordinary demands, but research shows that weight trainers and vegetarians benifit from supplementation. You don't cycle on and off vitamin C; you don't need to cycle your creatine either. In fact doing so will reduce it's benifit.

[Toby]

SJ, I forget: are you vegetarian/vegan? Just curious. Also, what are people's thoughts on me eating, say, several hundred grams of lean red meat a day and supplementing creatine at the same time? Or taking 200g+ of protein and supplementing creatine? I've been doing the protein thing for a long while now with no side effects. I also luuurve my lean red meat. Personally, I think the amounts of protein + creatine might've been what caused my organs to feel weird, although I wouldn't consider my diet at the time to be "extreme" (compared to serious strength athletes, but maybe in comparison to the average punter).

[IronFist]

I just wanted to say thanks for posting your weights in your first post in US pounds instead of that hippie system you guys use down there. :D

The cycling creatine thing is interesting. A lot of people say yay, and a lot of people say nay. Some people say too much creatine shuts down your natural production of it. Other people say "wtf, you don't produce creatine naturally in the first place."

Hey, I heard Australia has more strict supplement laws than USA. I've even heard creatine is illegal down there, but I guess not. What are your guys' steroid laws? j/w

[Toby]

Illegal AFAIK. Creatine is legal. I buy it online, but I've seen it advertised in the paper and my local bike shop sells it too (don't ask me why bike riders would want to take creatine - I wonder that myself).

[Toby]

In defence of SJ, I was just looking for something completely different and came across this (http://www.scitecnutrition.com/2003/scifiles/scifiles_products.asp?code=0009) link. The paragraph starting "Anecdotal reports of ..." I found interesting, and the paragraph where it says some BBs take 100g day and one guy 500g/2days :eek:. Anyway, it looks like a commercial site so take the report with a grain of salt.

[Samurai Jack]

SJ, I forget: are you vegetarian/vegan? Just curious.

Yes, I'm a lacto/ovo vegetarian. Interestingly I read that the original research project that established Creatine's strength building potential was conducted using an entirely Vegan experimental group. Of course thier strength would have jumped after being creatine deficient! Anyway, it worked for me, so I'm a believer.

The following study by the Journal of Sports Nutrition may interest any fellow Veg-heads out there:

"Vegetarians, particularly those who are on a strict lacto-ovo-vegetarian (LOV) diet do not ingest much creatine since creatine is mostly found in meats, fish, and chicken. Creatine helps muscle stay firm and strong. In a study published in the Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, thirty-two healthy men, who regularly consumed an omnivorous diet, were split into two groups. One group consumed a LOV diet while the other group had an omnivorous diet (they ate everything). The study lasted 26 days. In addition to their diet, on day 22 of the study, subjects were assigned in a double-blind manner to receive either creatine monohydrate 0.3 g per kilogram of body weight per day or an equivalent dose of placebo for 5 days. The results demonstrated that consuming a LOV diet for 21 days decreased muscle creatine concentration in individuals who normally consume meat and fish. However, the creatine content of muscle in the LOV group returned back to normal after a period of only 5 days. Therefore, it appears that vegans could consider supplementing with about one gram of creatine per day."

[IronFist]

100g of creatine per day? Holy diarrhea, Batman! :eek:

[whitefox]

100g of creatine per day? Holy diarrhea, Batman! :eek:
I was taking the recommended dose and still got the runs. Best laxative I have ever had. :)

[Toby]

My organs started to feel a bit funny (tender), which is why I stopped. Mainly on my lower left (spleen? kidney?). This worried me a bit.Deja vu. I finished another cycle of 2mths on at the beginning of October because I felt this same thing again. It goes away in a couple of days after stopping. I've still got a bunch of creatine so I'll try it again in another month or so. If it's 3 times (un)lucky, I probably won't take it again.

My lifts are all pretty good, in PR territory at the end of each cycle, but it seems to not be affected so much by creatine. I guess 1 rep (for the PRs) isn't so dependent on creatine's effects.

Hope you're all well, long time since I dropped by. Good luck with your training.

[bodhitree]

Creatine consumption can lead to the body needing more water, but not necessarily dehydration. I use creatine, feel great, but i also drink water throughout the day. creatine improve the muscles ability to retain water, hence, help the muscle function.

[IronFist]

Sup Toby

:)

[Toby]

Hey Iron, good to hear from you. 7000 posts? You're doing alright.

[Finny]

FWIW, it should be pretty obvious that taking creatine will increase the workload of your kidneys and liver. Hence the cycling.

BTW Toby, I spoke to Ben Cousins a while back, and he mentioned that he tried creatine for a month or so during the pre-season (this would've been around 2002). He said he put on about 6 kilos of muscle, but noticed his cardio endurance rapidly decreasing... so he stopped using it.

[Toby]

FWIW, it should be pretty obvious that taking creatine will increase the workload of your kidneys and liver.Yeah, but I never thought it would be noticeable like this. This is hard to ignore, and it's happened twice. Sorta feels like DOMS in the obliques.

... tried creatine for a month ... but noticed his cardio endurance rapidly decreasing ...I may have noticed this too to a lesser extent. How much is due to effects of creatine and how much due to increased body mass I don't know.

[mickey]

:)............(mickey looks for box to stand on)

[Finny]

Yeah, but I never thought it would be noticeable like this. This is hard to ignore, and it's happened twice.

Yeah - the only thing I could possible suggest would be scaling back the amount you're taking each day. From what I heard (not from experts, but my old man's a microbiologist and my brother's a doctor - talked it over with them) the recommended dosage is usually about twice as much as what you really need.

I never really had any of that organ tenderness you describe, but yeah, I'd just try cutting back the dosage, and keep drinking heaps of water.

Best of luck mate - always enjoyed your posts here.

Brendan Finn

[bodhitree]

http://www.mmaathletes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112&page=1

pretty good info on this post.

[IronFist]

I've been feeling pretty dehydrated recently and I HAVEN'T been using creatine. Well, ok, I just started another creatine cycle two days ago, but for the last few weeks I have been feeling dehydrated all the time. Weird. Like I'll wake up with a dry mouth and stuff, and I'm always thirsty, etc. I haven't been drinking much alcohol, and I've been drinking a TON of water for the last few weeks. I guess if it gets worse I'll cut out the creatine immediately.

[bodhitree]

What is the rest of your diet like? Caffiene and bad food can also lead to dehydration. INteresting.

[IronFist]

I eat a lot of fast food, frozen dinners, and frozen pizzas. It's the cheapest way to keep my calories up. And I only eat the "good" ones, and not the ones with like 80% of the daily allowance of saturated fat.

I eat salads every day and I try to eat a lot of fruit.

I don't eat desserts or candy, and I don't drink pop (soda) very often. I don't drink coffee but I do drink a lot of milk and water.

[bodhitree]

Sodium could be your dehydration culprit. I don't put salt on anything, but many packaged foods and fast foods contain a lot of salt. I often feel dehydrated from eating these foods. Maybe try to cut that out and see if it helps. Cutting excess salt can also help you to gain mass, due to not breaking down the water.

[bodhitree]

I have a general creatine question,
do you do creatine on a day off lifting? What about at a time with no workout during the day. Scott

[Ford Prefect]

bodhitree,

Creatine is basically just a nutrient found in skeletal muscle that plays a role in the anaerobic energy delivery systems of a muscle... ie for stuff like sprinting, lifting weights, etc. The whole point of creatine supplementation is trying to build up additional stores of creatine in your muscles which will give your muscles more energy which will allow you to make more gains. By doing it in the off-day, you hope you are building those stores for your next workout.

[bodhitree]

THanks Ford

[bodhitree]

THanks Ford

[IronFist]

THanks Ford

:p

[Ford Prefect]

THanks Ford ;)

[bodhitree]

:p STOP MAKING FUN OF MMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEE:p

THanks Ford:D

[IronFist]

^ :p

1234567

[Toby]

I eat a lot of fast food, frozen dinners, and frozen pizzas.
Iron "Hungry Man" Fist

:D

[Toby]

Best of luck mate - always enjoyed your posts here.

Brendan FinnThanks Finny. If we ever run into each other be sure to say g'day.

[Vash]

Iron "Hungry" 4 Man Fist

:D

:eek:

pwnage.

[IronFist]

Iron "Hungry Man" Fist

:D

Yes, sir. You know, I don't eat Hungry Man dinners that much anymore because they're expensive over here (US$3.99 at the grocery store). When I was in college, they were US$2.50 at Super WalMart, which was an awesome price. I'll still buy them when they go on sale, though. But right now, I'm a cheap ass, and there are cheaper options for more calories and protein than $3.99 for the 600-800 calories you get from one of the better Hungry Mans.

[IronFist]

:eek:

pwnage.

Nice try, bish :p

[dougadam]

An article from the Mayo Clinic


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/performance-enhancing-drugs/SM00045



Creatine is an over-the-counter supplement best known for improving performance in sports involving short bursts of high-intensity activity, such as power lifting, wrestling and sprinting. Side effects include stomach pain, nausea, diarrhea and muscle cramps. High doses of creatine may be associated with kidney, liver or heart problems, and even high blood pressure, although definitive links to severe illness haven't been established.

Although teens may be taking creatine to bulk up, what actually happens is that your muscles draw water away from the rest of your body. The bulking up you experience is often the result of the extra water stored in your muscles, not increased muscle mass. You don't gain extra strength from water. But you may get seriously dehydrated from the redirection of your body's water to your muscles.

The effects of creatine on children and teens haven't been studied. And most studies of adults have followed participants for only a short time — as little as six weeks — so the long-term effects are unknown.

[zooki]

Make sure you get high quality Creatine. HQ creatine powder should be very very fine and better absorbed.

Cheap Creatine products can mess your digestive organs. Make sure you get it from a reputable brand too.

Personally, i do not use any creatine or Protein powder supplements...... Im happy with eating lots of fresh fish, chicken, fruit and Eggs.. (normally I eat only 1/2 the Egg Yellow and 2-3 whole Egg White) You have to remember creatine and protein are found in foods too!!

[Toby]

This is what I'm interested in:

Creatine is an over-the-counter supplement best known for improving performance in sports involving short bursts of high-intensity activity, such as power lifting, wrestling and sprinting.

This is what I'm not interested in:

... may be taking creatine to bulk up ...

I'm not a teen. And I know about the water issue, and compensate accordingly. I drink 3L of milk and 1L of green tea a day as a minimum, and assorted water and juice as well. I know it's not all water, but it contains lots of water.

[bodhitree]

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/72/81723.htm

see, critics of it just don't understand.

[fa_jing]

I also wondered how vegetarians were able to think on their diet. Especially the ones I know, who generally have sub-optimal protein intakes. Now I know the answer: they can't

:D

[bodhitree]

I recently started consuming cytosport's muscle milk. It is supposed to help your body produce its own creatine. Has anybody else ever had this in their diet?

[abobo]

SJ is right, I think it was on page two it was said, if you eat a lot of meat you will likely not respond as much to creatine, since it's already part of your diet.

Ironfist, buy some fresh produce :eek: