Northern Mantis Forum - where will it go?

[German Bai Lung]

The Topics and most of the Posts in the last months are about to bother most sincere Readers and writers I think.

Most of the interesting Threads in the past are long gone and now I see only talking about Gossip. Thats sad. I really don´t understand, why people answer such stupid Posts like the new one from Wang about the gathering. It´s clear, thats it only about miscrediting.

I hope that some posts of more substance and knowledge will come in the future, but I also understand that many of the former writers are no longer intrested in this forum!

[mantis108]

Hi GBL,

Well, I hear you GBL. I sometimes feel the same and wonder if it was as good as it can get.

Personally, this forum is one of the finest and the best place where a lot of the real people behind the mantis community meet and share ideas. Please note that I say real people not masters. To me it doesn't matter whether they are masters or not. It does however mean a great deal to me that they are real people. I have in fact emails, meeting and phone conversations with a number of people whom in my view are great and dedicated mantis stylists including yourself. Just look at the Mantis Quarterly phenom. Yes, it's nothing short of a phenom IMHO! It all began with people who frequent this forum. So it is a phenom that belongs to all those who lend their support. It is a success that can be shared by everyone who is willing to participate. That's the beauty of the realm of internet. We can build something beautiful together even if we are land and sea apart. I would venture to say the best is yet to come but we need to hang tight for it. ;)

I knew at least 2 great people in my style who used to come onto this forum but they have since passed away. One of them is Eric Ishii whom I am sure a few people in the US mantis community have heard of him. Eric had given me not only a very good collection of CCK TCPM achieve but also the inspiration of learning and sharing from others. So I for one won't pack it in as long as this forum stays in operation.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

My view is this, when a thread that has good content is started a few people (some of which don't even study mantis) tend to chime in and the threads are taken over. Instead of locking those people out, the thread itself gets locked and I don't think that's right. Just like commercials we sift through to get to the real show. I'd rather do that than have a convo shut down because of the temporary interuptions. It is the real world, even though an internet world. Every one has opinions and you have to get them whether good or bad. If it turns into name calling or personal threats then shut it down.

[Lu Bu]

Guten Tag, German Bai Lung! Wie geht es ihnen? :)

I felt it should at least be said that he was ignorant and incorrect about what he was saying, for those who might not have been at the gathering. I'm not a big fan of misinformation.
I completely agree with you that there isn't as much substance on this forum as there used to be. A few of the older posters are still here, but only a few. And I think it's unfortunate that the only thing that seems to occur these days is people trying to stir things up, as opposed to share information. :(

I agree with you also, Mantis108. This is a fantastic medium for sharing a great deal about Tanglang Quan, and I hope that the focus returns to that in the future. It would be a welcome change indeed. I only wish that I had more to contribute.

[K.Brazier]

The quality of this place went down hill when I started planning my restuarant.

I have sold it and the last day of work is Sunday.

After that time I will post some and share bits of my latest research and questions.

This place has been so good in terms of sharing historical and cultural knowledge. It has also opened the door to me and others to travel around and visit other teachers.
So I conclude that it should not die.

[Oso]

Eric was one of the first people (along with Sifu Cottrell and Sifu Patrick Hodges) I spoke with when I came looking for 'real' mantis 5 years ago. He was very encouraging and giving for sure.

But, while this place can be a good place to be sometimes, would it not be somewhat cumbersome to go between here and MQ?

I truly feel that MQ and everything associated with it (forum, newsletter, the conference) is going to be the future of Mantis in the US if not the rest of the world. So, wouldn't it be better if all the information exchanged was contained in one archive instead of two?

just a thought and I'm certainly not dissing KFM or anything.


and, yes Kevin, you have been missed !!!

[Metal Mantis]

It is Kevin's fault............ hehehe....

[shirkers1]

Oso it seems like that is the way things are going right now any way... Technical info is being archived over there, while nothing is being said over here. When a discussion does start it is quickly shut down when people start to not agree or the topic strays ever so slightly. So why post anything here at all?

My only complaint about the MQ site is it can be at times too technical for myself and other students who don't really know all of the terms. Be it because of language differences used (manderin, cantonese etc) or just that they simply don't know what the terms are. Like the chinese term for punch or kick etc. Instead of saying that there is punch or kick they use the "chinese term" and some people get lost. I know when I use to post I would use general terms so any one reading could understand what was being said. I think this is where some people will turn away from that forum, or at least not participate as much as they want to for fear of sounding "not as informed" as others on that site. I know personally If you show me I've seen it or can do it, but I don't know all the terms because I didn't ask or it didn't sink in.. I just wanted to do it, not know what the animal name for the combo was.

just me two cents worth

[-N-]

Like the chinese term for punch or kick etc. Instead of saying that there is punch or kick they use the "chinese term" and some people get lost.Hi Mark,

I know what you mean.

On the flip side though, language provides structure to ideas. Sometimes this can be a problem if applying english language to a chinese mantis concept.

For example, sometimes people translate as follows:

kwa sao = upper block
bung chui = backfist
cho chui = uppercut

The problem then arises because the student does the kwa like a karate block, the bung like a point sparring flick motion, and cho chui like a looping vertically rising punch.

None of these are the mantis way to do the motion. But unfortunately, once the student has heard the english term, he automatically assumes he knows what to do. Then you have to spend the next 18 months correcting his kwa and bung etc. Then 3 years later, he still has an element of weirdness to his kwa. If you look around, you see a lot of mantis out there that looks weird because the original ideas and motions have been "translated" to something else that isn't mantis anymore.

N.

[shirkers1]

-N- Oh I agree completely, when you have to figure out what someone is talking about then you get kind of screwy though when you don't explain what you are talking about in detail... Even with simple things like kwa, bung, pi, etc. But then throw in mantis catches the cicada, goose palm exits the rhinos ear drum etc and people's minds could explode. (read disclaimer) :eek: :D

[Oso]

Mark,

I hear you on the technical stuff. My chinese is virtually nil (but working on it).

But, I feel that wading through that and asking for clarification is part of my personal growth in the whole shebang. I know that Mantis108 in particular, as well as K.Brazier, have both been very willing to reply to my PM's with help on the terminology.

Hopefully, Sifu Cottrell's book will be a boon to us all. (hint, hint)

[mantid1]

I tried asking a queston on "Mantis stuff" on the mantis curriculum thread and no one answers. It doesnt matter if they know the techniques I asked about, I would also like to know if anyone teaches them or not.

How many instructors or students know these?

Maybe people dont want to admit that they dont know them?

[shirkers1]

Mantid 1 I think with that question you asked it is very general and covers a lot of ground. I think I touched apon the issue but it's hard to go into detail because different people have different ways of training. What we are talking about with the terms used is part of that issue. Some schools stay more traditional and use the chinese terms, and others don't. I for one don't because I never learned them all. Soft this hard that, I can do them and understand them. But don't ask me to name them.. :D Everyone teaches different and hold different things as high priority in training.

[-N-]

But then throw in mantis catches the cicada, goose palm exits the rhinos ear drum etc and people's minds could explode. And you don't even have to hit them?? I want to learn how to do that! hehehe... :)

N.

[mantid1]

Thanks for the reply Shirkers

The topic of this thread is where is this forum going. GBL conserns seemed to think it may have become a place to slander and gossip rather than share mantis info.

I posted a thead asking specific questions about mantis. I dont think it is a general question at all.

Do you know or teach 12 word - yes or no

8 hard - yes or no

12 soft - yes or no

7 long - yes or no

8 short yes or no

Did you learn them from your teacher or did you adopt them from other systems.

After reading MQ most of the people that who seem to know about mantis think that these catagories should be high priority.

My system does the 12 word and requires the student to know what is long, short hard or soft (much like the way you have described you do it).

I have been told this is not good enough to be in a mantis system. You have to have these catagories to be "mantis".


I realize that different systems have different techniques but most have these catagories that I have listed.

It seems that Lee Kam wings system has these covered very well.

Have a good day

[-N-]

I tried asking a queston on "Mantis stuff" on the mantis curriculum thread and no one answers. It doesnt matter if they know the techniques I asked about, I would also like to know if anyone teaches them or not.You asked a theory question recently? Western approach sometimes is more academic than eastern. My teacher just said, "do like this". More kung fu than talk fu. Or in his words, "more practice and less talking makes one a better mantis".

N.

[mantid1]

Hello N

I dont understand your reply sir.

I train all day and teach at night.

I have time to train and talk.

By the way, my master said the same thing, that is why I am asking.

Thanks

[GermanMantis]

My teacher just said, "do like this". More kung fu than talk fu. Or in his words, "more practice and less talking makes one a better mantis".


So does mine. Not everytime. But i'm a person, who wants to know every single detail of a movement. So he answers "Practise more and don't waste your time on unimportend questions". Some things gain on doing them a thousend times and you don't need a detailed description.
But i also think that it's importend as mantid1 says, that you can name what you do and know what kind of principles are behind you techniques.

Greetings from Germany,
GM

[shirkers1]

Yes I have the items listed... But when you break down these things some people tend to dwell on certain items more than others even within these key examples.

The examples given are in everything you do in mantis that is why some say it is essential. Even if you don't know the individual (keywords, 12soft, 8hard, etc) in reality you are actually already training these concepts and tactics. Well you should be that is, whether you understand what you are doing or not. It helps if you know that before you train individual tactics so you know how to apply certain things. But honestly I wasn't given everything first and I had to figure out the comparrisons myself on down the road on a lot of things. Not to say my teacher didn't know them, he just concentrated on teaching different things. In my youth I just wanted to know how to do it and that was good enough for me, give me some tools to use so I can fight and that's all I need. I could see what was going on without being told what was happening behind the scenes and why and I was fine with that. Now I'm going back and putting together what I know with what the traditional terms are for what I know.

[mantid1]

Shirkers

Do you mind if I asked how your figured out comparisons by yourself?

Thanks for your willingness to be open. I feel it takes a person who is secure in who they are to be able to admit that they dont know it all.

I am sure your teacher is a great instructor.

Thanks

[shirkers1]

Yes mike is a great teacher, although he does things a little different and tends to go through phases of what he wants to work on as a group.

Well, I know very little when you look at the full picture.. ;) But that was by choice.

I'll try to be general in my terms...

When I first started at that time we concentrated on basic stances, hands, feet, footwork and the 14 ways. Very little two man training, some basic stationary drills. Forms were part of the equation, but worked on individually.

Then a lot of people were weeded out because of the intensity involved and it boiled down to some guys that already had a foundation so the training went along the lines of actual combat skills, footwork, two man drills, mitts, and sparring were the main focus. Form training became group activities and drills were pulled out of the forms. So within a lot of this training we were doing... say the 12 key words etc. Even though we weren't told "okay the concept of tag or lean is being used here" we were doing it. On down the line. I could give examples for every little thing but I don't want to be here all night writing. ;) Basically we trained the tactics and we understood how to use them, but weren't told, "hey this is one of the 12 soft etc"..... Make sense... ?

Even more were weeded out because of the iron arm and conditioning involved with two man drills and actual combat intensity. Then it came down to sensitivity and sticky energy was being focused apon more with the two man fighting and training.... so more of the concepts were being shown on an advanced level but still not all the terms were used... We were just doing them.

Now it has gotten back to a lot of basic building because he has a lot of new students so the older guys are helping the new students and kind of working on more foundational issues. Giving them all of the concepts ect.

I myself concentrate on the fighting and two man myself here in AZ. Because that is what I like to do, footwork and two man is where it's at for me. Within that you get the aggressive nature of mantis, sensitivity, conditioning etc. Without breaking things down too much. But I also have started to pick up the terms used and I'm giving my guys a list of those concepts and they study those on there own. When we're training I'll tell them "okay this is one of the 12 key words and this is how it's applied"... So they know what they are doing and why instead of just doing it.

I don't know if I answered your question or not, but I was always one of those guys that could look at what you were doing and understand it and do it fairly easily. A natural so to speak, so I understand there are only so many ways to enter, so many lines of attack etc. without someone breaking it down for me, I could already see that, understand it and do it. The feeling and sensitivity gained from doing two man stuff gave me a lot of these skills, the ability to feel when to slip, shoot, re direct, feeding and feeling of energy etc. Certain concepts that I pick up now I realize I was already doing but just didn't have the terminology to go with it. So when I look back at what I was training and still training for that matter and compare that to the definitions of the 12 key words etc I see I was already doing these things. It's just a puzzle that I'm still putting together in technical terms.

[-N-]

Among my classmates and my students, the ones that most liked talking had the least ability. One could see that the talking interfered with their skill development, which is why my teacher made his comment. The other comment he would make was, "empty glasses make the most noise".

N.

[-N-]

>>> Basically we trained the tactics and we understood how to use them,
>>> but weren't told, "hey this is one of the 12 soft etc"

Shirkers, that was how Sifu Brendan Lai taught as well.

N.

[shirkers1]

Yeah I've heard others say that about sifu lai. I can see how you can gain from learning that way, but some people just need to be told to comprehend things to learn it faster. :)

[mantid1]

Thanks for taking the time shirkers, I appreciate it.

Like I said it seems you guys teach/train the way I do except we require the student to describe the technique as long, short, hard soft, double or any combination of the above. I know that is general but it does serve a purpose.

Master lai did not break it down either huh. That is interesting.

I am finding more dont breakit down than do.

Dont mean to pi** you off N tihis is just a subject that I am interested in.

Isnt this better to discuss on a praying mantis forum than people from Shanhai?

I would still like to hear how others approach this in their teaching

Thanks again guys

[mantis108]

Hi All,

I am a firm believe that ultimately Kung Fu is about EDUCATION. It is martial in nature and it is hands on for sure.

The single most fundamental question for me is why are we doing what we are doing. Why Tanglangquan? Why not Karate or JKD or BJJ? Why drill hook grab pluck when we can just jab, cross and hook like a boxer? Believe it or not this forum meaning the real people behind it has helped me trememdously to find my answers to all these questions and more. In turn, it has helped people that I train found theirs.

I also believe that we should not confuse teacher-student loyality that is like filial piety with absolute truth. In all honesty, filial piety while it is a great virtue, is conditional and self serving. Absolute truth on the other hand is unconditional which means it is accessible for all and it welcomes all who wishes to enter it. Holding our teacher's inspiration and wisdom in high esteem is one thing. Engraving it in stone is quite another.

Having said that I have no problem in telling others that I personally have not heard GM Chiu talked much about 12 keywords and such things. May be he had with other more senior students and I wasn't the "chosen one". But hey that doesn't stop me from going down the rabbit hole and take the red pill. ;)

Today, I am doing things differently from what GM Chiu taught me because I have my own experience with teaching different folks. I can't say that I do things all on my own because I still based my training program on how I was trained. I took the liberty of focusing on applications, which was GM Chiu's to us advice anyway, and I work on ground fighting (still a taboo in the Kung Fu community) because it fascinates me to build on what I have been given. This would not be happening without sound traditional guidelines. So my interest in going through all classical theory of Tanglang becomes the driving force. Now I am glad to say that we can indeed explain the dynamics and mechanics of ground fighting with Classical Tanglang theory via the training program once set forth by GM Chiu.

I do not dare to compare myself with GM Chiu ever. He left us with the wooden dummy form as his great legacy. I would in a very small way gladly hand in my research on Mantis ground fighting training as my final exam assignment to him.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS Kevin, me and other awaits your return. :D

[Oso]

christ man, that's like the best post ever for the Mantis Forum.

I too struggle with the filiel piety bit.

Sometimes it's really freaking hard to get accross a concept that you might understand but don't exactly have the words for. Then it is a necessity for your students to trust you and do the work and let the knowledge arrive through the work...that's how my first teacher (hung gar) taught me and the small handful of others he had..."do this and keep doing it and then you will understand" A lot of the time he was right...sometimes he wasn't.

So, I guess that was an argument for having the right words.

I know I don't always have them though or there is some sort of communication barrier and that is when I just want my students to shut up for 5 seconds and just train and feel what it's supposed to be like.

ok, minor rant there :D can you tell what my latest struggles in class have been? ;)

anyway...my only point above was that with the creation of MQ Forums, I was hoping for a total consolidation of my time on one forum.

Does it make any sense at all to even have this forum anymore?

Why have TWO Mantis forums?

[FEELERSTRIKE]

I feel it is a shame that this thread has come about . People should be able to express their opinion about northern mantis in an open forum . If you do not agree with their point then comments should be made and information shared . If you find the thread offensive then don't read it or reply to it . The people who have replied to these threads with negative comments are just as bad as the person who initiated it .
I have tried to share information over this site to try to bring a more informed conversation about but to no avail . If I said how **** mantis style is then people seem to carry it on for ages . It makes no sense .
Good luck to Shifu Cottrell and the MQ site it really is very good . He has done a sterling job with it . I will agree that I struggle with the technical terminology that is constantly used but it is great to hear what is going on in the mantis world .
I will be sorry to see this site diminish , it has helped me with my research and has introduced me to some great mantis guys . I personally feel that it should be here and open to all which I understand the MQ site may not be . Do we need both sides of the coin ?

[mantid1]

If you only want one forum why not just one branch of 7star or TJMH?

I personally like to have more than one option.

I have had more questions answered here thatn on the MQ forum. Dont get me wrong I like the MQ forum.

I have learned alot from Mr. 108's forum. Should we shut it down as well?
I dont think so.


I asked the same question about the mantis techniques and got nothing. I may have rattled a few cages here but at least I have a general idea of who focuses on these things.

The questions are not to make anyone look bad it is to find out that if I am missing something critical. If so I would search it out. It does not seem that I am missing that much, so I can leave it alone now.



You have to understand that when people respond to the trouble makers they must be getting some kind of entertainment out of it, or they would just ignore it.

Mr. 108

Thank you for your honest and informative reply.

[Oso]

As I understand it the MQ Forum is open to all practitioners of ANY branch of NPM. I'm not sure but I think that Sifu Pel is even a member at MQ. So, I don't believe there to be any discrimination other than that it is a forum for MANTIS people.

The only caveat that I know of is that the moderators will be putting up with even less crap than BTL does here.

The point being to create a forum for the transfer and sharing of knowledge.

IMO, if everyone were to agree to focus their time and energies onto one forum instead of 2, or even 3 (sorry Robert, forgot about yours) then I think you would find that more questions would be answered because there would be more poeple hanging around in ONE spot to answer them.



If you only want one forum why not just one branch of 7star or TJMH?

that's not an apples to apples comparison.


I personally like to have more than one option.

great idea in general. In this instance the main historical researchers present in the mantis world at the moment are at MQ. They are also here some as well but it makes total sense that any information they share with us be archived at one location.


I have had more questions answered here thatn on the MQ forum. Dont get me wrong I like the MQ forum.

again, i believe that would change if people didn't have to chose between going to one forum or the other.


I have learned alot from Mr. 108's forum. Should we shut it down as well?
I dont think so.

no. as I understand it, Robert's main focus there is on TCPM...but I don't know because I personally don't have time ( as much as I value Robert ) to hit yet another forum.



I asked the same question about the mantis techniques and got nothing. I may have rattled a few cages here but at least I have a general idea of who focuses on these things.

The questions are not to make anyone look bad it is to find out that if I am missing something critical. If so I would search it out. It does not seem that I am missing that much, so I can leave it alone now.

I would have to say that was just good timing. shirkers1 seems to spend equal time between the two and was willing to answer your questions. good on him and you both.


You have to understand that when people respond to the trouble makers they must be getting some kind of entertainment out of it, or they would just ignore it.

agreed wholeheartedly. I myself don't understand the personality behind people who get off on that but that is yet another reason to have, for the express purpose of exchanging information between mantis practitioners, a separate forum where trolling and counter-trolling (hey, I think I just coined that) are absolutely forbidden.

[mantid1]

oso

You have made all very good points. I can see your reasoning and it does make sense.

But I also see the benifit of having more than one forum. It takes me less than 2 seconds to go from this forum to the quarterly. That is all I have to say on this issue.

I did start a new thread on mantis forms and would like to see what your feelings are on this issue.

Thanks

[-N-]

Dont mean to pi** you off N tihis is just a subject that I am interested in.Oh, I'm not ****ed off or anything. No problem! Just giving an example of one point of view.

N.

[-N-]

I know I don't always have them though or there is some sort of communication barrier and that is when I just want my students to shut up for 5 seconds and just train and feel what it's supposed to be like.Very zen... experience directly. Talking and thinking deludes and misleads :)

N.

[yu shan]

This forum is a great avenue for learning. There will be peaks and valleys, just like our training. We should stand strong and see the forest thru the trees. Everything is like a circle...