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FuXnDajenariht
05-11-2005, 05:41 PM
http://www.rotten.com/library/language/the-finger/origin/

In 1415, Henry the V took his army of around 6,000 men across the English channel and into southern France. After cutting trees and preparing large pointed sticks, Henry marched his army northwest for 17 days and over 270 miles. With only one day's rest, the mighty force was hagard and exhausted by the time they reached the flat land between the forest of Agincourt.
The French army, consisting of 25,000 troops, 15,000 of which were mounted knights in armor, arrived on the evening of October 24. Their army was a mishmash of Frenchmen from all over the feudal country. It rained hard that night, and both armies were soaked to the bone my morning. Most French knights slept in the saddle so as not to sully their expensive and ornate armor.

On the morning of October 25, the French and British armies were salty and ready to fight. Henry moved his troups slowly up the 1/2 mile wide passage between the two forests of Agincourt. By 11 Am, the French commanders were still bickering over tactics and whether or not to charge, and the British were within 400 yards of the French.

Now what made the battle of Agincourt so interesting was the introduction of what could be considered the only good think to come out of Wales aside from sheep bestiality: the Welsh long bow. This weapon could dismount a rider at 300 yards, and with top notch arrows, could pierce armor at close range.

When Henry had his troups within bowshot of the French, he loosed the first of many volleys of arrows. The French, caught off guard, charged with half their forces. The Duke of Orlean barely made it 200 yards before his knights broke and ran under a hail of deadly wood and steel. Many of the knights sank into the mud and were smooshed as the horses and frightened soldiers trampled them into a fine paste.

Those knights that did make it to the British front lines were lept upon by unarmored soldiers carrying short swords, who plunged their blades into the joints of the French armor. All this came after a great number of horses were impaled upon the huge pointed sticks the British had placed in the ground in front of them.

At the end of the day, the French had lost some 10,000 men, and the British mourned only 500 dead. In one day, the Hundred Years War had turned and the long bow had successfully defeated the myth of the invincible knight in armor.

Shakespeare went on to glorify this battle, and the French, to vilify it. For the next 100 years, every lad over the age of 6 in Britain was required to be instructed in the firing and maintaining of the long bow.

In response to this, the French began cutting off the index and middle fingers of all British men caught in battle or on French land, thus removing the digits that allowed the firing of a bow. This is where the British tradition of waving two fingers at someone as an insult arose. Thusly, the very American middle fingered salute, or "the bird," is a descendant of this.

FuXnDajenariht
05-11-2005, 05:42 PM
i've always wondered that...

now i know.

Liokault
05-11-2005, 06:07 PM
Still lots of laws regarding training with the bow in the UK.

With out doing a search and going by memory I think you can shoot welsh men in a certain castle on a Sunday with your long bow legally and in a large area of common land in London (Wimbledon common?), while practicing with the bow, if a walker gets in the way and still impedes you after being warned.....you can shoot them :)

FuXnDajenariht
05-11-2005, 06:19 PM
lol shweet :D









































oh i mean.....thats horrible. hehe

BibitClerus
05-11-2005, 06:27 PM
today i laughed at the americans running away from the menace of a small (i believe a Cessna) white plane in washington
it was fun

Shaolin Shi
05-11-2005, 10:20 PM
Always a good idea to check Snopes before posting (or forwarding) stuff like this.


http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm

FuXnDajenariht
05-11-2005, 10:37 PM
i guess i still dont know. :(

Mr Punch
05-12-2005, 12:01 AM
The story I read, which I've heard from a couple of different sources (including John Keegan, the renowned historian who both those conflicting Snopes sources quote) was that the French threatened to cut off the two fingers of the English bowmen, and waved both of those fingers at the English, then after the battle the English archers waved them back at the French. But, it wasn't Agincourt... and I don't have the inclination to look it up now as I'm supposed to be working. It was the same campaign though.

And as for Snopes, it used to be pretty sharp, but recently I've noticed just as much hearsay and faulty logic there as anywhere else on the net, and people quote it like it's gospel... well, sorry but I don't know who Barbara Frickelson or whatever her name is is, so why should we trust her?! :D

Mind you, she is quite correct in the middle finger gesture being distinct at least to the Romans, although she is not necessarily correct in assuming that there is a direct connection between the two fingers of Olde Englande and the middle finger of the continent. There must be a reason for the difference. Desmond Morris, the renowned anthroplogist author, who himself has been discredited, also has a lot to say on the subject... none of which I can remember ( :eek: )... so it comes down to not believing anything you read on the net, and doing your own research...! :D :confused:

Think it was down to some phallic symbol to the Vestal virgins...

Mr Punch
05-12-2005, 12:04 AM
Still lots of laws regarding training with the bow in the UK.

With out doing a search and going by memory I think you can shoot welsh men in a certain castle on a Sunday with your long bow legally I know this one! I know this one! It was: perfectly legal to shoot a Welshman within a bowshot of the English border on a Friday if he was walking toward the border with a vegetable or an animal. Friday was market day... It was kind of a forerunner to global 'free' trade! :D

It was repealed in 2000 I think.

Liokault
05-12-2005, 02:15 PM
I know this one! I know this one! It was: perfectly legal to shoot a Welshman within a bowshot of the English border on a Friday if he was walking toward the border with a vegetable or an animal. Friday was market day... It was kind of a forerunner to global 'free' trade! :D

It was repealed in 2000 I think.


No, your thinking of a different one! My one defiantly had something to do with a castle!

There was a large thing in a news paper about archaic laws that had not been repealed, most of them involved shooting the welsh, and as I have met welsh people, I can see why they made the laws :)

Fu-Pow
05-12-2005, 02:22 PM
Gosh....and here all along I'd been thinking that it was because is looks like a co(k. :confused:

Liokault
05-12-2005, 09:30 PM
Gosh....and here all along I'd been thinking that it was because is looks like a co(k. :confused:


May be thats why you give them the finger , but I shake my fist at them :D

Mr Punch
05-13-2005, 12:59 AM
Gosh....and here all along I'd been thinking that it was because is looks like a co(k. :confused:That's one finger. If it's two you need an operation mate! :p

red5angel
05-13-2005, 09:36 AM
the "welsh" longbow was around for a longtime before Agincourt. Agincourt was important because it highlighted the effect of massed bowmen even though they were severely outmatched, hungry, sick and in less numbers then the french.

However, it wasn't just the bow, it was the fact that the field below agincourt on which the french and english met was wet and the French used primarily heavy cavalry, which made the matter worse. They got bogged down and became pin cushions.

Fu-Pow
05-13-2005, 04:34 PM
the "welsh" longbow was around for a longtime before Agincourt. Agincourt was important because it highlighted the effect of massed bowmen even though they were severely outmatched, hungry, sick and in less numbers then the french.

However, it wasn't just the bow, it was the fact that the field below agincourt on which the french and english met was wet and the French used primarily heavy cavalry, which made the matter worse. They got bogged down and became pin cushions.

Wow you really do know EVERYTHING.... :rolleyes:

TonyM.
05-14-2005, 07:48 AM
Actually the French were cutting off the index finger and the Welch could still fire a bow with the middle finger so they raised it as a salute.

BM2
05-15-2005, 10:19 AM
Well,well,well. On the History Channel they gave the "V" for Victory salute from the longbow men showing that they still had all of their fingers. It was not, however, the orgin of the one finger salute.
And of the orgin of F*ck. Middle German, if I recall, for breeding cattle.

BM2
05-15-2005, 10:26 AM
I don't remember what magazine I read this in but the thumb was used for the finger of insult in some parts of the world. The article was about unintentionally offending different societies while vactioning in their countries.
An American, whose vehicle had broken down, was hitch-hicking with his thumb out when the occupents of the car he was flagging down stopped and kicked his butt.

Dim Wit Mak
05-15-2005, 05:40 PM
I heard that one of those fingers ended up in a bowl of Chile at Wendy's. :D

stimulant
05-17-2005, 01:31 PM
as has been said a couple of times already.....it was two finger that were cut off not the middle finger alone, english men would show the french their two fingers (not entirely sure where the saying 'up Yours' comes from that is customery here in England to say along with this display!) to show they could still kill the baguette munching, onion wearing, frog leg eating frenchies that they could still be killed by them!

I read somewhere and also heard at an archery display at warwick castle in england that the longbow was arruate to 300yards but could travel up to a mile and still pierce armour. Dont know how true this is though.

Mr Punch
05-18-2005, 09:23 PM
300 yds would be a relatively straight shot, the long ones would be a higher arc: less accurate, but could still come down with a whump.

This has probably been tested by the Master At Arms in the Tower, who must have THE coolest job on the planet! :( :D

Those guys at Warwick couldn't hit a barn door with a laser-guided arrow...! :D

GreenCloudCLF
05-19-2005, 08:49 AM
I was a police officer in a major city. During graduation practice from the academy a friend of mine flipped me off...the training Lt. tried to have him fired for this.

The whole thing went ont for months, even after graduation was said and done. It was hilarious...

When the Lt questioned me as to what the finger meant to me I said, "its a joke."

And she said..."You don't think it means '**** you'"

The I filed a harassment complaint for innappropriate dialouge.