Shaolin Monk vs. Beijing Imperial Guard (Bagua)

[blackmantis]

Hi everyone, I know these "vs." posts are always a bit stupid, but was just wondering who people think would win in a match. Who's fighting skill was superior in your view?

Shaolin Monk (from Northern Shaolin Temple)

vs.

Beijing Imperial Guard (trained by Dong Hai Chuan)

S

[Finny]

Royce would choke them both out...

Simultaneously

[shrub]

You guys are so immature and silly. Of course, Superman would win handily.

[Ray Pina]

Easy .... Ba Gua!


There's a reason why Ba Gua was used to guard the emperor and why Southern Styles kept being pushed further and further south eventually to Hong Kong and then to the U.S.

Also, in the north there were a lot of Manchurians who specialized in wrestling, so they had to handle them too.

[scholar]

Coincidentally the Wu style of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is descended from Imperial Guard training, as well. Both Wu Ch'uan-yu and his son, Wu Chien-ch'uan, were bannermen, cavalry officers of the elite Palace Battalion. Our martial syllabus is strongly wrestling oriented at first because of their Manchu heritage. They respected wrestling's potential already, and emphasised it in the T'ai Chi they learned from Yang Lu-ch'an 150 years ago.

Why should I hit someone with my fist if I can hit them with the ground, a wall, or maybe furniture? Also, beyond the practical, the conditioning aspect of hitting the ground repeatedly is first rate. If hitting the ground isn't a frightening issue anymore, it opens the door for many more techniques and applications that someone only used to standing training can't appreciate. Many modern MMA guys don't realise that old school traditional training has thorough groundfighting ingredients, too!

It seems other T'ai Chi styles (except perhaps Chen style) haven't kept up with the wrestling training of T'ai Chi as such for the last 100 years or so. I can see potential throw applications in the better Yang style forms, but I don't think they are trained by the Yang's students anymore.

[scholar]

Not many people know it, but they had some firearms, too. :eek:

Your description of throws into the ground, into furniture, walls or traffic and other opponents as well as a proliferation of neck, back and other bone and joint breaks is an accurate description of the way Wu Chien-ch'uan's descendants still train their martial students in the Wu family schools, too.

[SPJ]

All are correct. It is actually an Army that guards the palace. They fight in groups or in formations. They are elite forces. They are recruited from all the champs in all units. They may fight Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Tong Bei, Pi gua, Ba Ji etc. They usually are number one or top players in the country.

That being said. The imperial guards are very good at whatever they are doing and in groups.

Ba Gua is a system to change. The principles and practices may be incorporated into whatever styles you mastered or vice versa.

All Dong's students practiced other styles first. The legends said that the students were defeated by Dong with Ba Gua and light step. They then became the students of Dong.

For example, Shi Ji Dong was good with fast kicks. Dong used Four Dragons take water posture or Si Long Qu Shui Shi to dissolve or neutralize all his kicks. Move close, push him with hitting palms, elbow or Zhuan Zhang and destroy the balance.

The dragon posture or Long Xing Shi is very agile in advance and retreat like a swimming dragon.

Yi Fu incorporated Shaolin Luo Han Shou and Tang Tui into Ba Gua.

Cheng Ting Hua incorporated Shuai Jiao into Ba Gua.

You may also incorporate your style into Ba Gua or vice versa.

:)

[BAI HE]

As a Bagua exponent I'll say this,
Of everything I've seen or studied in CMA?

Everyone in every style was a Imperial Bodyguard, One of the Ten Tigers or the Chairman of a Martial arts federation. It goes hand in glove with claims of legitimacy. Some are real, some are fake and most cannot be verified. Ther is a lot of "Verified" info within IMA in regards to these claims, but are they necessary?

Holding such posts doesn't really add legitimacy to "How tough" the individual is.
It's like splitting hairs and saying the Secret Service are tougher than Delta Force...

[imperialtaichi]

According to Sun Tse, whoever has the better Dao, Tian, Di, Jiang, Fa..... ie the Way, heaven/timing, earth/geography, generals, method.

Martial art abilities comes under Jiang and Fa, which although important it's further down the ladder.

Cheers,
John

[BAI HE]

Martial ability falls onto the individual, no matter the scope of the battle.
Sun-Tzu's maxim on strategy, is also predicated on leadership.
Do Sun's theories guarantee sucess in any conflict? Do they Guarantee anything but a good read and basic strategy?

Who leads one man? Himself. Who governs one man? Himself.
That is the way of training.

Affiliation to high ideals and schools of "thought" in relation to martial arts,
will more than likely lead to "Thinking" at the wrong time.

[SPJ]

You have to be good in order to be an imperial guardsman.

However, you may also be good and not be a guardsman.

Sun Tzu Bin Fa and Sun Bin Bin Fa are about waging a war and win.

How to run a country, an army, and win wars.

They are not about skills or tactics on one vs one fighting.

One vs one fighting is random. Many things come into play. Your trainings, skills, experiences, the circumstances of fightings occur, etc.

We can only increase the probability of winning by gaining more factors to our favor and win with "the least" amount of efforts.

:)

[imperialtaichi]

One vs one fighting is random. Many things come into play. Your trainings, skills, experiences, the circumstances of fightings occur, etc.

We can only increase the probability of winning by gaining more factors to our favor and win with "the least" amount of efforts.



Totally agree! especially if you think that if an imperial guard ended up fighting with a shaolin monk, it would most probably not be a fare fight in a rink; most probably an ambush, or a group cornering another group, where more than mere kungfu skills needed. If you look at the history on how the early Qing government destroyed the Shaolin.




Sun Tzu Bin Fa and Sun Bin Bin Fa are about waging a war and win.

How to run a country, an army, and win wars.

They are not about skills or tactics on one vs one fighting.



Disagree over the last line. Sun can be applied on the whole army as well as the individual. Same as Myamoto Musashi and Yagyu Munenori.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Who leads one man? Himself. Who governs one man? Himself.
That is the way of training.



Don't forget,

"Yi Qi Jin Lai Gu Ro Zhen" meaning the Yi Qi is the ruler and bone and flesh are the ministers; and
"Xin wei ling, Qi wei ci, Shen wei tung shui" meaning heart is the comander, Qi is the flag bearing soldiers, and Shen is the head of the army

To understand how to be efficient and how your internal drives your external, one should understand these two point. If you do not even understand the relationship between your heart and your body, when would you know? as in "You Xin bu yong he shi hue!"

And THIS is the way of training.

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

Agreed that:

Sun Wu Bin Fa and Sun Bin Bin Fa may be used for other scenarios, too.

Not only the generals or military cadets but also businessmen and politicians study them, too.

There are chapters on a soldier level such as Bin Xing and Bin Shi, formation and posture.

There are also chapters on an Army level such as Jun Xing and Jun Shi.

On a greater sense, life is about fighting or preparing to fight on all levels. Or how to compete at favored situations/formation/posture etc.

:)