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SevenStar
05-13-2005, 09:39 PM
No, it's not the blow up doll of gene that you IMed me about, but maybe it'll be just as good to you...


I happened to be looking through one of my thai boxing books today and read a section about traditional techniques that I hadn't noticed before. It made me think of your "if it works, why don't they use it?" questions. Basically, they reiterated the same things that mp, st, myself and the gang say here - percentage reasons. Fighters have much more success in the ring sticking with basic techniques (In regard to the sidekick, yes, that is basic, but there is more info to come). It stated that some techniques while very effective, also put the wielder of them at risk of getting hurt if they delivered the technique improperly - missed, misjudged timing, etc. Therefore, they recommended that if you do seek to learn any of the old techniques that you have a VERY FIRM grasp of using them and that you are comfortably able to apply them in sparring. It says that for success in the ring, the traditional techniques really aren't necessary.

This has been good and bad. Good in the fact that these guys have an awesome grounding in basics and are devastatingly effective with them. Bad in the sense that alot of the old techniques have since been forgotten, as they are not being passed down on a wide scale. Most of the techniques were preserved through oral traditions (not the tradition that red5 and his dad have) and that there is controversy about what the actual names of the original techniques are. Many thai fighters today have no clue what the old techniques were, however, some of them are basic, and included in basic thai training as they are easily useable. That goes into what I was saying about the sidekick. Traditionally, it is in mae mae, luk mai, etc. but fighters have had more success with other techniques, and consequently, there are fighters today who don't even have a clue what the sidekick is.

The book went on to state that of the traditional styles, mae mai is the easiest to learn, and suggested learning to apply the traditional techniques of that style before trying to learn those of luk mai, chearng or kon.

one of the basic mae mai techniques they mentioned is called chorakee fard hang - it is basically bringing a roundhouse that missed its target back in the reverse direction to strike - for all practical purposes, it is a hook kick.

MasterKiller
05-13-2005, 11:46 PM
Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.


Fighters have much more success in the ring sticking with basic techniques (In regard to the sidekick, yes, that is basic, but there is more info to come). So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?

ewallace
05-14-2005, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.

So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?
Because BJJ is a martial art that is commonly adapted for competition. It wasn't designed that way. What all is in the art and what all is commonly used is what has been proven to be effective in competition. Kinda of like what 7 said about some techniques exposing the fighter if the technique is not applied properly. Against someone without any submission game some advanced techniques would work great, but against someone skilled in the same art the cost/gain ratio isn't worth the risk. Basically a long-winded way of saying use what works, discard what doesnt.

MasterKiller
05-14-2005, 11:29 AM
I agree EW, but we're talking side-kicks here, not Pheonix Eye fists. The side-kick is powerful and shouldn't leave you vulnerable to many counters. It's a basic kick.

But my point about the sport rules is pertinent to me right now. The MMA fighters I train with use Western boxing and some Muay Thai as their striking art. When they practice those styles, they practice at gyms that teach them to fight according to Western boxing and Thai rules, with the proper equipment. That's great.

But in MMA, we wear MMA gloves and play by MMA rules, and I'm finding that some kung fu techniques work very well against them because they don't train them in those sport arts. Hooking the hands to enter the clinch has been extremely effective, as I mentioned in another thread.

To get back to the point, though, my training partners eat a lot of my side kicks too because they don't see them in their other training. That's what got me to thinking about it in the first place. If it works so well, you'd think some pro somewhere would pick up on this and start using them more often.

Now don't get me wrong, these boys hit hard and most of them are in better shape than me (and much younger), but I'm seeing some of the limitations of their sport-specific training first-hand. I would trust them to back me up in a street fight any day, but we're talking training purposes and theory here, so I don't want anyone to think I'm dissing boxing or MT.

littlelaugh
05-14-2005, 12:43 PM
I am very much a kung fu newbie, but my teacher (whom I think used to do a lot of boxing) was talking a bit about this in class today. IIRC, he said that side kicks are just a smidge slower because of the hip turning involved. I am thinking that this may not count for much when two novices are fighting but I bet it factors in quite a bit when two pros are knocking each other around.

Cheers,

Laugh

ewallace
05-14-2005, 02:41 PM
I hear you MK. i think it was a kotc match I was watching not too long ago, and the guy (who was not formally trained as a kickboxer) scored a nice shot against someone who was trained as a kickboxer, the shot was a roundhouse upside the head. Guess he just felt he could pull it off.

I'd say keep using the sidekick and stop letting people know its effective. ;)

Becca
05-14-2005, 09:28 PM
... IIRC, he said that side kicks are just a smidge slower because of the hip turning involved...
Nope. If they are slower, it is because you don't practice them enough or have cr@ppy technique. I find my side kicks are just as fast and considerably more powerful then a front snap kick. If the heavies aren't using them, it isn't because they are a slow kick. It could be that they just never found themselves in the position were they felt they needed it. Maybe they had other tools in thier arsinal that they felt more comfy using... who knows... :)

MasterKiller
05-15-2005, 12:42 PM
I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

Becca
05-15-2005, 08:59 PM
That's a good point. Pai Lum is the only style I've studied that had any real kicking, so I don't have a lot of experience to draw on, but now that you mention it, JMA does tend to square off. I drove my sifu up the wall untill I learned to present my side... :o I can definantly see how sqaring off would slow down and even telegraph a side kick.

Judge Pen
05-16-2005, 04:58 AM
I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

Coming from someone with a slow side kick that often spars peple who are much faster and more athletic, you can compensate with good entering techniques that put you in a position to throw the technique more effectively. I'm getting away from the one-side forward stance personally, but will step into that stance as a trasition to throw the technique.

7*, maybe I missed it, but did you go on to explain why MT doesn't use the side (all I saw was "more on that later.")

Akhilleus
05-16-2005, 05:43 AM
I agree with Littlelaugh's teacher...in the styles I have studied, the side kick is generally slower than a front kick or teep...that's why the teep or push kick is a better defense against a leg kick than the side kick is...but they (side kicks) are harder to catch...it is also easier to slide in on your support leg to cover distance on a side kick than a push kick or front kick...and because many guys don't ever practice them or see them in training, they are the technique I've had the most success with when sparring muay thai guys...

Dang I've got to go take my last exam (woo freakin hoo) but I have more to say on why some/a lot of people do not practice the side kick...

David Jamieson
05-16-2005, 06:39 AM
All techniques are nothing without the practitioners.

If I train a technique to a level of proficiency wher I can make it work effectively, then someone saying "that is not an effective technique" is simply b1tching.

As a very base example:

an F1 racing car cannot be driven by anyone, but if a novice takes the wheel and cannot have teh vehicle perform, does that make the vehicle any less of a powerful machine?

all techniques that one can use effectively are valid, and no techniques have a 100% hit rate. The stylist changes the pace and modality of the fight the techs are used in.

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 08:05 AM
Thanks for the info.

But, everything old is new again. If Thai fighters keep eating side kicks in multi-style venues, it makes sense to me to start re-incorporating them. This really supports the argument that sport rules can limit the effectiveness of a style over time.

So why do you think BJJ has a bizillion techniques and counters if it is a competition sport?

as I said before, most thai fighters fight in thai matches - or in venues where the sidekick isn't a major factor - like MMA. In a san shou venue where the side kick is there kick of choice, you would probably see them either start using it, or at the very least, training to defend it.

bjj has a bizilllion counters because of how things are applied. It really doesn't have a bizillion techniques, merely a bizillion variations. I probably know 20 different ways to apply an americana - it's not that each variation is a different technique so much as you have to apply it differently based on your opponent's position. grappling is VERY position sensitive. If you are in the wrong position, the technique may not work the way you are intending.

MasterKiller
05-16-2005, 08:13 AM
grappling is VERY position sensitive. If you are in the wrong position, the technique may not work the way you are intending. So I'm learning... :D

Akhilleus
05-16-2005, 08:15 AM
OK so anyway...

I think MK is onto something that posture the person is in before initiating the kick will effect the amount of time it takes them to execute said kick...however, I haven't sparred many people that turn far enough to the side that their side kick would be as fast as their front kicks...

OK now why don't a lot of people use the side kick in muay thai? For one, many side kicks as seen in other martial arts involve skipping or sliding forward on the support leg...I was advised not to do this by the muay thai guys I've trained with, as someone could side step the kick then hit you as you are coming in, and that forward momentum from your kick is only increasing the damage done...in other words, they don't do jumping kicks for strategic reasons...

OK thats all good and well, but why don't they use a side kick without hopping? I don't know for sure, but in the muay thai tournaments I am familiar with, you can only catch the dude's leg then punch once, then you must let his leg drop, granted that can be a very damaging punch, but its not like in say san shou where you get spoints for a big slam or sweep off of a kick catch...one of the great things about a side kick is it is hard to catch...so since kick catches aren't as important in muay thai as in san shou, there isn't as much that the side kick offers that the teep cannot provide...

OK so why aren't they used very much in MMA? I don't know but you also don't see as many guys trying kick catches in MMA as in san shou...

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 08:19 AM
I wonder if it's because of the difference in the on-guard stance. CMA tends to fight from one side or the other, so you are always in position to throw the side kick.

Myabe in the case of Muay Thai, the on-guard is more squared, thus, making the side kick a slower kick because you have to turn more to throw it??????

I've alluded to that before - the teep is faster and serves pretty much the same purpose.

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 08:29 AM
OK now why don't a lot of people use the side kick in muay thai? For one, many side kicks as seen in other martial arts involve skipping or sliding forward on the support leg...I was advised not to do this by the muay thai guys I've trained with, as someone could side step the kick then hit you as you are coming in, and that forward momentum from your kick is only increasing the damage done...in other words, they don't do jumping kicks for strategic reasons...

coincidentally, I was talking to one of our guys about this recently. He is a tkd black belt and skips into his kicks. It telegraphs the hell out of them and I can easily shuffle back, then lunge forward with a counter. Also, in the event that I don't want to move back, I can stand my ground an drill him. He chambers his kicks, so I can usually run him over before he gets the kick out.


OK thats all good and well, but why don't they use a side kick without hopping? I don't know for sure, but in the muay thai tournaments I am familiar with, you can only catch the dude's leg then punch once, then you must let his leg drop, granted that can be a very damaging punch, but its not like in say san shou where you get spoints for a big slam or sweep off of a kick catch...one of the great things about a side kick is it is hard to catch...so since kick catches aren't as important in muay thai as in san shou, there isn't as much that the side kick offers that the teep cannot provide...

in thai matches, you can catch the leg, then take two steps forward before you have to drop it, under ISKA rules, anyway. In thailand, you can hold the leg as long as you want. also, you can't SWEEP the support leg, but you can KICK or knee it. it the kick or knee takes him off his feet, it's still counted as a knock down.



OK so why aren't they used very much in MMA? I don't know but you also don't see as many guys trying kick catches in MMA as in san shou...

you don't see as many high kicks, either. It's inefficient to kick catch a leg kick.

Akhilleus
05-16-2005, 08:45 AM
"coincidentally, I was talking to one of our guys about this recently. He is a tkd black belt and skips into his kicks. It telegraphs the hell out of them and I can easily shuffle back, then lunge forward with a counter. Also, in the event that I don't want to move back, I can stand my ground an drill him. He chambers his kicks, so I can usually run him over before he gets the kick out."

Hmmm...well when I throw it I pick my knee up first, in front, then skip forward to cover some ground...yes I have had a guy side step and rock me once...I teach people to skip forward on the kick, but i don't deny there some are inherent weaknesses to it, as with all other moves...I honestly haven't had any problems with the kicks being telegraphed, but like I said I don't really chamber them like your friend does...I think it is much harder to land that "shuffle side" kick thing Bruce Lee used to do to make the bag go way up in the air or knock a dude across the room...unless of course he is already hurt...

"you don't see as many high kicks, either. It's inefficient to kick catch a leg kick."

I agree with your point but I'm not sure I agree that it is inefficient to catch a leg kick...I think it may be more dangerous in MMA because there is a tendency to put your head down (guillotine) to avoid getting punched when you drop your hand to catch the kick, but if done correctly I don't see why it couldn't be used efficiently in MMA...

northstar
05-16-2005, 09:20 AM
An earlier post in this thread reminded me of something I read about the development of some of the fancier Chinese weapons, like the hook swords. Weapons like these were developed, not because of any inherent superiority over commonly used weapons, but due to the fact that they would be more effective than expected because opponents would not be used to facing an uncommon weapon.

Another thought is regarding the notion that what doesn't work is discarded. Generally speaking, this is of course true, but if this is to work in practice the techniques must be used for some time in order to find a potential space for them in one's fighting strategy. Just because it doesn't work the first times you use it doesn't mean it's useless.

Finally, somenone here mentioned the fact that many "techniques" are actually variations of "principles". Herein lies the key to using most kung fu that I have encountered. One really trains to issue force in different angles and modes, but it is easy to mistake some of the rare applications as entities of their own, missing out on the connection with the more easily comprehendible applications.

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 10:20 AM
Hmmm...well when I throw it I pick my knee up first, in front, then skip forward to cover some ground...yes I have had a guy side step and rock me once...I teach people to skip forward on the kick, but i don't deny there some are inherent weaknesses to it, as with all other moves...I honestly haven't had any problems with the kicks being telegraphed, but like I said I don't really chamber them like your friend does...I think it is much harder to land that "shuffle side" kick thing Bruce Lee used to do to make the bag go way up in the air or knock a dude across the room...unless of course he is already hurt...

I'll have him try them that way - he skips, then chambers and kicks.

I agree with your point but I'm not sure I agree that it is inefficient to catch a leg kick...I think it may be more dangerous in MMA because there is a tendency to put your head down (guillotine) to avoid getting punched when you drop your hand to catch the kick, but if done correctly I don't see why it couldn't be used efficiently in MMA...

because I don't want to drop my hand to my knee, grab it, scoop it upward...a simple leg check with a counter would serve better, IMO. I guess maybe it would depend on exactly where on the leg you're hit, though. if it's below your hand's reach, do you bend or squat to scoop the kick, or just block it?

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 10:24 AM
Another thought is regarding the notion that what doesn't work is discarded. Generally speaking, this is of course true, but if this is to work in practice the techniques must be used for some time in order to find a potential space for them in one's fighting strategy. Just because it doesn't work the first times you use it doesn't mean it's useless.



I don't necessarily disagree with that. In the case of fighters in thailand, however, they have figths as often as once per week. It's not uncommon for a 21 year old there to have 90 pro fights to his credit. with so many people have so many fights, I don't think it would have been hard at all for them to determine what had'hadn't been working.

fa_jing
05-16-2005, 10:38 AM
I saw a Thai guy fight on TV that used a kind of side kick and knocked his opponent down with it. It was an unpivoted kick and actually a variation of the front push kick, not dissimilar from the way Wing Chun side kicks are thrown

norther practitioner
05-16-2005, 10:42 AM
I swear I've seen back kicks in some thai fights.... maybe it was K1, but to me, it is so similar to a side kick...

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 11:25 AM
I've been told that the three most common kicks seen in thai boxing are the teep, roundhouse and back kick. My assumption is that if the round house misses and the kicker opts not to spin 360 degrees with a leg block, that he will just use the same leg he kicked with and fire off a back kick. I actually use a sidekick for that - I guess it would depend on how far you spun...

SevenStar
05-16-2005, 11:32 AM
I saw a Thai guy fight on TV that used a kind of side kick and knocked his opponent down with it. It was an unpivoted kick and actually a variation of the front push kick, not dissimilar from the way Wing Chun side kicks are thrown

That's actually a variation of the teep that some people use. Manu Ntoh showed us that variation when he came down for a seminar.

IronFist
05-16-2005, 12:38 PM
Good thread.

Akhilleus
05-16-2005, 07:00 PM
I actually use a sidekick for that - I guess it would depend on how far you spun...

Yeah that's a good move...


because I don't want to drop my hand to my knee, grab it, scoop it upward...a simple leg check with a counter would serve better, IMO. I guess maybe it would depend on exactly where on the leg you're hit, though. if it's below your hand's reach, do you bend or squat to scoop the kick, or just block it?

I certainly respect your opinion that the leg check would serve better...there are plenty of things that can go wrong if you try to catch the leg kick and don't do it just right...I usually try to pin it to my leg...I also try to turn my knee in to take the kick on my hamstring, but I will pin it to my outer thigh too sometimes if i don't turn it in time...

I don't do much conditioning for my shins so I am afraid of blocking it with my shin, but a worst case senario I will still check it with my outer calf...as I alluded to earlier, I have a bad habit of catching the kick and then putting my head down when the dude swings because my hand is down...I guess the best thing to do after catching the kick would be punch him immediately of strike his shoulder ot knock him off balance...I've also seen people move into the leg kick and turn there knee out so the kick kinda slides up their leg where they catch it...

SevenStar
05-17-2005, 07:32 AM
I also try to turn my knee in to take the kick on my hamstring, but I will pin it to my outer thigh too sometimes if i don't turn it in time...

why the hamstring?


I don't do much conditioning for my shins so I am afraid of blocking it with my shin, but a worst case senario I will still check it with my outer calf...

My only issue with taking it on the calf is that the hip sockets are designed to swing left and right - so if you raise straight upward to block with the calf, a hard enough kick can force that hip swing, closing your gate, leaving you open and possibly knocking you off balance. when you turn the leg outward and block with your shin, you prevent your gate from being closed.

SevenStar
05-17-2005, 07:37 AM
7*, maybe I missed it, but did you go on to explain why MT doesn't use the side (all I saw was "more on that later.")

From my initial post:



Most of the techniques were preserved through oral traditions (not the tradition that red5 and his dad have) and that there is controversy about what the actual names of the original techniques are. Many thai fighters today have no clue what the old techniques were, however, some of them are basic, and included in basic thai training as they are easily useable. That goes into what I was saying about the sidekick. Traditionally, it is in mae mae, luk mai, etc. but fighters have had more success with other techniques, and consequently, there are fighters today who don't even have a clue what the sidekick is.


We've also discussed another reason in the thread - speed and purpose of the sidekick vs that of the teep.

Akhilleus
05-17-2005, 09:02 AM
why the hamstring?

I think you take less damage or at least not the kind of damage that's going to make it hard for you to walk the next day, I'm not certain but think it has something to do with where you are getting kicked, but it definitely allows you to roll with the kick...


My only issue with taking it on the calf is that the hip sockets are designed to swing left and right - so if you raise straight upward to block with the calf, a hard enough kick can force that hip swing, closing your gate, leaving you open and possibly knocking you off balance. when you turn the leg outward and block with your shin, you prevent your gate from being closed.

Yeah I can see how that could happen...so maybe that isn't the best defense to a leg kick...but like I said I don't condition my shins anymore than kicking pads and sparring w/o shin guards most of the time, and niether do the students I work with, so blocking with the shin could get us hurt more than the attacker...

OK I just wrote some long stuff about countering a leg kick with another kick, but thought of a better way of wording it...In this situation, I prefer the teep to the side kick b/c I don't feel like the side kick is fast enough to counter a leg kick...even if it were, when you hit your opponent and knock them backward, their kick might be pushed a little higher than they intended (as they are leaning back) and be right at your groin...this has happened to me at least 2X when I threw a side kick and they happened to throw a leg kick and I knocked them back...so what I am wondering is do you think this could be a problem with the teep? And if so, how do you avoid this problem?

SevenStar
05-17-2005, 09:35 AM
That's never happened to me, but I can see how that would happen. generally, after I hit them with the teep, they put that kicking leg down so that they can regain balance.

SevenStar
05-18-2005, 01:30 PM
I was reading another one of my books today - its got both the sidekick and the hooking hands that MK was referring to in it. I don't hook with gloves on though, as I've stated before - IMO, it's not worththe risk. As for the sidekick, it pretty much echoed what has been said here - that it's used less than the teep because the stance is more forward than sideways.

SevenStar
05-20-2005, 04:13 PM
ttt... :eek:

Ben Gash
05-20-2005, 06:22 PM
what's a teep?

MasterKiller
05-21-2005, 07:46 AM
A type of forward push kick where you push your hips up and forward during the kick to get more power.

FatherDog
05-21-2005, 10:18 PM
I also try to turn my knee in to take the kick on my hamstring, .

This is exactly what all three of my thai coaches have taught me /not/ to do. Getting kicked in the hamstring hurts much worse than being kicked in the quadricep - they all taught me to turn my leg /out/ instead of in to take the hit on the front of the leg rather than the back.

SevenStar
05-22-2005, 09:24 PM
kicks to the hamstring and inside of the thigh can hurt like he11. I can see what he's saying about rolling with the kick though - the leg bends that way, so it can roll with the kick easier, but I would think that doing so would make countering slower, as the leg is now turned in the opposite direction that you need it to be.

The way I was taught to roll with a kick catch was to take a lateral step - so my whole body is rolling, not just the leg in question.

Akhilleus
05-23-2005, 09:01 AM
Getting kicked in the hamstring hurts much worse than being kicked in the quadricep - they all taught me to turn my leg /out/ instead of in to take the hit on the front of the leg rather than the back.

I saw Cung Le teaching that move that you mentioned in a video...and one of our guys likes that one too...however, it seems to me that if you turn your knee out to take the kick on the front and he kicks the same height as your knee then that force is going against your knee joint whereas if you turn your knee in and he kicks knee height your knee would bend the way it is supposed to...

Also I asked my buddy last week if he thought it hurts more or less to take the kick on the hamstring or quad and he basically responded by saying that taking it on the hamstring spreads the pain out (ie if you've been kicked in the quad three times you may have more problems than a guy that got kicked in the quad twice and hamstring once)...

norther practitioner
05-23-2005, 09:21 AM
(ie if you've been kicked in the quad three times you may have more problems than a guy that got kicked in the quad twice and hamstring once)...
That is a good point. Depending on conditioning to being beat up, different stategies as to where you take punishment can be a good idea. Of course, I never plan on getting beat that bad.. but thats another story... :p :D