Hokey pokey.

[Mr Punch]

Do any of you actually believe that Biu Sao in the eye is going to be a fight-stopper? At least without controlling the head?

Do any of you have any experience with this in da str33t?

I've had a Biu Sao from a very large man, which went all the way to the back of my eye socket, which stopped him from the shock (though we were just sparring not fighting each other) longer than it stopped me. I got very minor bruising inside my eye (I could feel it for a few days after) and it didn't even shine up or swell.

Consequently, do any of you actually believe Biu Jee is for training striking people in the eyes?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The finger thrust was always presented to me as a distraction and a way to bridge with your opponent.

People instinctively want to protect their eyes. In order to do so, they will bridge with the biu sao in some way. Most often this will be to your outside gate.

In some lineages, the biu sau always sticks the non-biu hand into some form of wu sau under the elbow of the biu sau arm. Since we've elicited a natural defensive reaction against our outside gate, a quick hand replacement manoeuver places your original biu (now your third biu) in the opposite gate of the one your opponent originally bridged with (very often an unguarded one.)

If, perchance, the new gate is still guarded (ie they protected themselves with their right outside gate intitially, then you snuck into their right inside gate but they had a left wu sau and protected with the left inside gate), it will still engage on your outside gate. A repeat of the above manoeuver will bring you to the back of their head.

Here, or at any point where there is an unguarded gate, any strike appropriate for the available surface area is acceptable. Of course, at the back of the head, if you had iron fingers, you could always give them the kiss of the dragon. :D

This of course is all provided that you maintain the initiative throughout and aren't being hunted in return. If you are, refer to Chi Sau. ;)

CSP

[bonetone]

If you actually train finger strikes to be powerful and penetrating, I feel they could do some major damage. Someone who is able to break several inches of boards with a finger strike could possibly hurt you badly with such a blow. The way finger strikes are just done a few times in the air in the forms isn't going to prepare your finger strike to do any real damage. You need to dvelop speed, power, and some hard condtioning in your finger strike before it is effective. It seems like people don't train any of their weapons to be truely effective. You can spar, chi sao, and do forms all day, and you still won't have any power or effectiveness to your strikes.
I did have someone try to claw my eyes out, but their thumb slipped into my mouth, snack time. I did end up with some sctatching, swelling, and bruising in my eye though.

[ghost5]

I have to agree here. Relying on any one technique to stop a determined attacker is not a good idea, IMHO. Someone set on hurting you is going to take alot of stopping as a rule. An eye gouge is a good place to start tho.

We teach it as a distraction and then to follow up as/IF the head goes back. If they keep coming then you had better have something else to throw.

I have seen the idea of a one shot stop on someone taught many times over the years but in real situations I have seen it work VERY seldom. And yes I have seen and particapated in more than my share of fights in the real world. Don't care to do it again either :rolleyes: . This is from working security for several years.

I train the eye gouges but just as one small step in ending a fight.

[kj]

FWIW. I don't train to "poke" with my fingers. I recognize that through extraordinary effort some people do extraordinary things with or on their fingertips. Still, human fingers in general aren't appropriately constructed for poking people or things with significant force. Even if the musculoskeletal structure of the fingers and hands were sufficiently durable (and one isn't concerned about tearing back a nail, LOL), relying on those kinds of strikes during the heat is extremely optimistic, IMHO and IME.

Having said that, I won't mind offering a thumb gouge, in the event that I "happen" to land in proximity to do so.

Your MMV.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Do any of you actually believe that Biu Sao in the eye is going to be a fight-stopper? At least without controlling the head?

All depends on the circumstances. I think it would serve to tick some people off and further steel them.


Do any of you have any experience with this in da str33t?

No, thank God.


I've had a Biu Sao from a very large man, which went all the way to the back of my eye socket, which stopped him from the shock (though we were just sparring not fighting each other) longer than it stopped me. I got very minor bruising inside my eye (I could feel it for a few days after) and it didn't even shine up or swell.

You are very lucky. I recommend eye protection if you're going to play like that. You get one set of eyes, and only so many mistakes with them. Case in point: a simple bump to one of my eyes as a child has left me virtually blind in that eye due to retinal scarring.


Consequently, do any of you actually believe Biu Jee is for training striking people in the eyes?

Other than a happenstance brush or scrape, no, I don't think that is the primary application. In my view, biu jee is designed for training full release of directed force into the opponent.

Regards,
- kj

[n01]

Do any of you actually believe that Biu Sao in the eye is going to be a fight-stopper? At least without controlling the head?

Do any of you have any experience with this in da str33t?

I've had a Biu Sao from a very large man, which went all the way to the back of my eye socket, which stopped him from the shock (though we were just sparring not fighting each other) longer than it stopped me. I got very minor bruising inside my eye (I could feel it for a few days after) and it didn't even shine up or swell.

Consequently, do any of you actually believe Biu Jee is for training striking people in the eyes?

are you serious :confused: i mean just get your fingers now and poke just under your eyeball and keep going if that doesn't stop you in your tracks and think twice i'll have some of what you are taking which i think maybe bull**** pills.

[couch]

There should never be such arrogance or naitivity that one hit is going to be the show-stopper. You poke him in the eyes...and you keep pummeling.

[kj]

FWIW. The guy in this fight (http://www.sublimedirectory.com/basement/media/kimbo.wmv) hardly seemed bothered despite his eye popped half out of his head. This seemed to be a rather "friendly" fight to boot.

Regards,
- kj

[Mr Punch]

If you actually train finger strikes to be powerful and penetrating, I feel they could do some major damage. Someone who is able to break several inches of boards with a finger strike could possibly hurt you badly with such a blow. ...Unless he is thrusting his fingers through the hard tissue at the back of your eye socket (which frankly seems to be the realms of a movie) it wouldn't make any difference how conditioned his fingers were. My friend's finger weren't conditioned but they were hard enough to get round the soft tissue of my eye. If they had been harder it would have still got round the soft tissue of my eye: I wouldn't see a difference. Unless you're suggesting a conditioned finger strike could spear the eyeball and burst it, in which case you'd have been practising with loosely tethered tomatoes or something ( :rolleyes: :p ).


You are very lucky. I recommend eye protection if you're going to play like that. You get one set of eyes, and only so many mistakes with them. Yes, I am. We were just sparring lightly, working some bridging from light combos, and I stepped the wrong way and ducked into his outgoing biu.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you about the musculo-skeletal structure of the fingers, esp as my middle finger protrudes quite a bit and has a pronounced bend in it.


I train the eye gouges but just as one small step in ending a fight.Generally good answers, cheers, but can you tell me, how to you train eye gouges?


are you serious i mean just get your fingers now and poke just under your eyeball and keep going if that doesn't stop you in your tracks and think twice i'll have some of what you are taking which i think maybe bull**** pills.Thank you for your input. Yeah I'm serious, you? :rolleyes: Tell you what, you poke your eyeballs first :p , tell me how it goes.

I don't know what happened to save my eye (I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating trying to block finger strikes with your eyeballs! :D), and I don't really give a **** about trying to convince no1, but the guy who did it posts on here by occasionally under the name of Sekabin.

All I'm saying is, percentage-wise, an a free target, not a held head, it's gotta be fairly **** low.

[Airdrawndagger]

The fight that KJ links to is impressive. Although it a prize fight, they are definetly going at it. Notice that the guy that wins has a full beard. That beard helps his face to not only absorb a punch, but makes punches slide off his face easier... now that is smart thinking IMO.

[planetwc]

Do you train finger thrusts EVERY day for 100->1000's of times till it is non-telegraphed and instinctual?

Do you mount a face mask on bungie cords and practice striking through the eyes as they are moving for 100's to thousands of times?

If you don't, then it's a low percentage move. Just as with anything else.

How ready are you to DEAL with the consequences of maiming someone?

Really. Truly.

How intense is your training in that regard?

[anerlich]

One of my instructors knew an old-school guy who used to practice lots of finger strikes in front of a mirror. This guy got into a pub altercation and managed to jab the guy in the eye. The guy he hit screamed "AIIEEEE! You've blinded me!" and immediately all the neutral bystanders suddenly got angry with the eye-poker. Not good.

I have to question the mindset that regards this level of maiming as a principal technique, or sees it as a healthy attitude ot training or life.

Even for street defense, KO's and chokes are more reliable ways to end fights.

The police and courts will not look sympathetically at you if youi use such tactics against an unarmed adversary, though they might be slightly more sympathetic to females.


That beard helps his face to not only absorb a punch, but makes punches slide off his face easier... now that is smart thinking IMO.

An acquaintance of mine used to shave before training - in his opinion *this* made the punches slide off. IMO learning evasion and blocking is a higher percentage strategy.


i'll have some of what you are taking which i think maybe bull**** pills

What a fine and intelligent young man :rolleyes:

[ghost5]

I guess I should have said I train the movement :rolleyes: . Training partners get kinda mad when you start poking them in the eye :D . But to answer your question it is target training. I do it for the focus of being able to hit a small spot fast rather than the fact that it is an eye gouge. I really don't need to be sued by somebody for blinding them.

I do practice the move many times a day but that is mainly because of the muscle memory involved and it helps me throw different techniques to the head. For me it is just an easy technique to train with not one that I would rely on.

[n01]

yeah okay he poked you all the to the back of your eye socket and you felt no pain you got lucky.

anerlich=a fine old man having his mid life crisis buy a motorbike thats what people your age usaully do. :o

[anerlich]

*yawn*

I'm a little past mid-lfe. No crises as yet.

Motorbikes? Nahhh. I get my kicks on the mat choking out young punks whose bravado exceeds their ability. I ain't been bil jee'd in the eye by any of 'em as yet.

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, I have never used it in the street (btw can we cut out the leet speak?), but when I first started cross training in 6 elbows I was told by the teacher I am not allowed to use finger jabs, especially the biu sao. I have a few wing chun brothers who also cross train so the teachers are well aware of common wing chun moves. This is because one of his students once went to the emergency room and ended up with a 2,000 dollar hospital bill because of a finger jab to the eye.

Yes, it can work, do I rely on it? No, I train it, and I do internal conditioning to help my hands in general but have no personally biu sao'd someone in the eye or across their throat. So, IME, I am not sure if it would be a fight stopper if I used it.

[Edmund]

Maybe if you could nail them in both eyes with a double biu sao! That Pokey aint Hokey.

[viper]

gee i been poked in the eye by that technique and it hurt the human body reflexs to close the eyes but if done quickly with speed and acc its pretty good it may not bring down a opp like the non pain feeling meathead you talk about but it should make em pause a little to gain a advantage on them when you train you train not to stop all energy goes forward meaning if the guy pauses you proceed attack or ran the hell out of there i do agree pep do not train this tool to its full effect simaler to a ear clap the simplest things in life are often the best defend and get the hell out unless the guys smakn youre mum or somthing its youre own choice then.

[Mr Punch]

...and breathe!

:D