black tiger's iron wire form- questions

[taichi4eva]

I got this info off a website for Siu Lam Hak Fu Kyun:

"The original founder of this particular style (there is more than one Black Tiger style) was Wong Cheung, aka Kut Shuin, from Pun Yu county, Kwangtung province, China.

At age 8, he was learning "Sam Chin", the Iron Wire Form, from his grandfather. (This form is intended to harden the body making it more resistant to nerve and pressure strikes, as well as all kinds of other punishment. I used to practice it in order to do the "nail bed" trick.)"

"Sam Chin" means "three battles" in Fujian dialect doesn't it? Mandarin= San Zhan? So why is it called the "iron wire" form? Does this mean that in Black Tiger Kung Fu (a Cantonese style) has a Fujianese form like San Zhan in White Crane and Five Ancestors?

Furthermore, I learned from hungga.org that Hung Gar practiced on the mainland has the following forms:

1. Dan Fuk Fu Kyun
2. Fu Hok Seung Ying
3. Hak Fu Tit Sid Kyun

Does this mean that San Zhan is practiced on Mainland Hung Gar rather that the usual Tit Sid that Hung Gar uses?

[David Jamieson]

You got that from:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shaolinblacktiger/

correct?

This is jmd_61's personal website. I am sure he can answer any questions.
But I would avoid making broad assumptions and connections to Hung Gar etc etc etc.

Sanchin kata is indeed "three battles" "three conflicts" and is a current Goju-ryu kata but is believed to be one of the oldest kata in all of Karate.

from another site:


Sanchin can be found in several Chinese arts, particulary the southern styles including four styles of Crane Boxing, Dragon Boxing, Tiger BoxingLionBoxing, Dog or Ground Boxing and Monk Fist. Sanchin has such aspects as deep, diaphramatic breathing found in many internal arts as well as external attributes like mechanical alignment and muscular strength.

The original Sanchin that Higaonna Sensei learned from RuRuKo (1852-1930) was performed with open hands and with less emphasis on muscle contraction and "energetic" breathing. With the changes brought about by Emperor Meiji (Meiji Restoration Period 1888-1912), Higaonna Sensei changed the open hands to closed fists as the martial meaning was no longer emphasized.


so this is just a form that Wong Cheung learned as a child that is not necessarily directly connect to the Black Tiger style that is currently being propogated by teh Hark Fu Muhn assoc of Hong Kong or those sifu in the states who teach this style from Wong Cheungs Sil Lum Black Tiger style.

anyway....anythiong to add to that Jeff?

cheerz

[Fu-Pow]

Sam Chin and Tid Sin don't seem to translate as the same thing.

Sam Chin=Three Battles?

Tid Sin=Iron Thread.

Where's the connection?

[David Jamieson]

ask yourself, what are the three battles?

then ask yourself, why is iron thread called iron thread? It is neither iron, nor thread?

they are concepts.

The idea of "iron thread" is used in many dynamic tension forms that are available across many different systems of martial arts.

why not call it "isotonic/isometric contraction hard chi kung form?" And if one set has the same principle driving it as another, what is the difference except for the name?

semantics are ridiculous in the realm of the masters of hyperbole. How is the market different from the supermarket and how is that different from the double lucky golden dragon supermarket?

anywhoo. :p

p.s I would ask if anyone knows a form of karate other than goju that is more focused on "iron" skills? That whole style is about hard ass conditioning conditioning and then more conditioning.

[phoenix-eye]

What about uechi ryu?

I saw a discovery channel documentary (I know, I know :( ) where there was a father and son uechi ryu demo. The father was breaking boards with the POINTS of his toes. Ouchhha!

They seemed pretty hard........I wonder what "iron" skills they train and whether they do a version of Samchien or something a bit like TitSinkuen?

PE

[CLFNole]

From what I know the Sam Chien from Hong Kong and Kwantung is similar to hung kuen. At least thats what I have heard from my sifu.

Peace.

[jmd161]

Hey David what's up bro?

To answer that question

It was actually a misprint that i left up on the site, although Sigung did learn Sam Chin he also learned Haak Fu Muhn's Tit Sin Kuen two seperate forms. Our Iron Wire is close in apperence to Hung Gar's ,but it's more martial in application and contains five animals tiger,crane,dragon,snake,leopard.



taichi4eva,

To answer your question, it's just a form his Grandfather taught him along with some Hung Gar he taught him as a child. It's not that it was part of his Hung Gar training or any other Hung Gar training. Sigung Wong Cheung was not only a Black Tiger master, But also a master of Hung Gar and Hung Fut as well.

Not really anything to add Dave, you answered it spot on! :D


I'll get around some day to finishing up that site. :rolleyes:


jeff:)