Effective grappling in kung fu

[CanadianBadAss]

I know there’s Shuai-Chiao but what about drunken monkey? Because all the techniques my sifu was showing me from that style seemed to be grappling and takedowns, and it was all extremely effective(on the guy I was sparring with anyway…). So wouldn't it make sense for more kung fu people to learn it, to fill in the lack of ground fighting in their art with out having to resort to X training with a non-kung fu art?

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[Ryu]

I'm researching Shuai Chiao, and even Dog Fist boxing (just for fun on internet and different places) but I haven't seen anything yet that resembles the groundfighting of say BJJ or judo.
I'm not harping on those systems, but I know them, and know they work for me since I've used em. :)
But I am seriously interested in finding out some Chinese systems that may have ground holds, transitions, etc.
Haven't found anything yet.

Ryu

http://www.kfccinema.com/news/12/zu2-05.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Jaguar Wong]

Yeah I forgot, Drunken Monkey is taught right down the street from me, next to the Shuai Chaio school. There's also a lil' Shaolin temple, just in case I need more Kung Fu stuff to "fill in the gaps" :)

Who knows, maybe Drunken Monkey grappling can be superior to wrestling, and bjj, but the chances of me finding a school in Las Vegas (or even Nevada) are slim to none, and if I do accidentally stumble onto one, the chances that they are A) Legitimate, and B) train as hard as other bjj and grappling schools, are even worse. I would love to learn Shau Chiao throwing, and I would love to study in depth Chin Na applications with someone who's very knowledgable on the subject. It ain't gonna happen unless I uproot my family and start "walking the earth" on a quest for the greatest hand to hand skills. :(

To me it just makes sense to cross train with other styles that are more easily accessible. Besides, it's not like learning bjj will taint my skills. Even if I didn't want to learn bjj, I would at least try to train with bjj guys, so I can develop my kung fu skills to defend against ground fighters, and wrestlers.

It just so happens that I approached bjj and wrestling with the former attitude (learn about it, and how to counter/defeat it), but while being exposed to it, I totally got hooked with the style, and I really love the principles, and techniques within. My core style is, and always will be Northern Shaolin (cause I got some mean kicks, and my stand up agility have improved because of it), and I always thought the chin na that I picked up from Praying Mantis, and Shaolin would be more than enough for me to utilize in any close quarters situation. Because I approached bjj with an open mind (like our Sifu drilled into us :)), I found much more than I was looking for. and now I have a better understanding of fighting on the ground, or how to avoid it in general. I'm also much more proficient in trapping/clinching range, as well as striking from the ground. Chin na helped me with bjj, but bjj has helped my Chin na even more.

Jaguar Wong

[Ryu]

Cool. :)
You'll be a better fighter because of it.

Ryu

http://www.kfccinema.com/news/12/zu2-05.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Jaguar Wong]

Ryu,
Yeah, maybe someday... I'm just happy that I don't have to stand there eating punches anymore, because my infighting, and kicks aren't working. I now have the option to take the fight to the ground, and neutralize their strikes. The only problem is that I get tapped a lot doing that. I'm still learning, though, so hopefully my "play book" will be diverse enough to let me control my opponents/situation. My stand up will always be my focus, though. I like the option of switching ranges, or escaping... :)

Jaguar Wong

[azwingchun]

I believe just about all systems have some sort of grappling. When I refer to grappling I am referring to such things as Chi Na. IMHO, I believe whether you choose to use these locks in a stand up position or on the ground the principles of joint manipulation doesn't change much. I believe the only thing that really changes is the power base or leverage and where you get it, this obviously changes since you are not on your feet or rooted. Once again, as I have said in other post there are only so many ways to punch, kick, block etc, well I believe the same is true w/grappling. For example, people constantly say there isn't any grappling in Wing Chun, well I disagree. And no it isn't because my Sifu or someone added it later. I again repeat, if I can use grappling (Chi Na) techniques or principles while standing up in Wing Chun, why then shouldn't I use them when taken to the ground. I get really aggravated when I here people say Kung Fu doesn't have ground fighting in it and if yours does then it was added recently. I think the people that say this are missing the point. Just because we don't shoot in for the takedown immediately and/or don't use the principles in the exact same way isn't to say it isn't there. Though I do think many schools don't take the real time to train Chi Na from the ground enough, or even what to do when taken down to the ground. I have a hard time believing that our forefathers of Kung Fu never thought about ground fighting or felt they didn't need it because they were to good on thier feet. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't believe that just in the past 10 or so years people realized ground fighting was effective or needed. I heard a saying yesterday on the radio, the guy said "if I thought about it today, somebody else thought about yesterday." Sorry, just venting. :D

[Tigerstyle]

Don't get his hopes up, Ryu. He'll never get better, because he has learned too many bad habits from bad direct-to-video MA movies. For example he like to start every fight by running at his opponent with both hands up ready to smash downward. And he telegraphs all of his spinning kicks with a huge wind-up.

[Jaguar Wong]

azwingchun,
I totally agree that any system with standing grappling should be able to use it while on the ground. But there are some things that need to be addressed when on the ground, though. The feet can come into play much easier now :)

Styles that may have had a ground fighting system, but lost it throughout the years doesn't help much when the practitioner is thrust into that scenario. Even if the system was "uncovered" by a dilligent practitioner, it still doesn't compare to training with people (or a style) that have been using the ground fighting components of a style in a much more live and direct way for years (or even generations, like the Gracies) already.

In all my kung fu years, I have found many grappling and wrestling elements in the style, but that didn't make me proficient in their use. I just knew they were in there, and practicing them with others that didn't know about them really didn't do much for me to sharpen those skills. It always took another practioner from another style (most of the time it was wrestling), with a lot of experience to show me how to use the stuff from my own style properly.

But with the whole thing about bjj, I haven't found many elements that resemble the in depth approach to ground fighting that this style has always had. I mean it's cool to learn some Chin Na to take an opponent down, and subdue them, but to me it was also necessary to learn how to fight from "the bottom", in order to get control of the situation, and get back to my feet. If I can slap an armbar on someone from the guard, then that lets me know that I can break an arm, and get up quickly if I even needed to. If I can sweep someone and take a full mount, or knee on stomach, then I know I can get to a better position if there are other factors that I am worried about (like his buddies).

We don't always have a choice how the fight starts, and if some thug decides it's gonna start on the ground with him on top, then I would prefer to have skills that I developed by actually practicing techniques in that situation, not based on some theory that what I learned standing up, SHOULD also work on the ground.

Another thing, it doesn't matter to me where I learn these skills. I don't care if the paper trail of masters can fill a file cabinet, if it works (not if someone tells me it works, I mean if I can get it to work), then I'm gonna use it. I don't give a crap if I developed my ground fighting skills from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Drunken Monkey, or even the Tae Bo Grappling series. If I can get it to work, then I have more faith in it :)

Jaguar Wong

[Jaguar Wong]

Tigerstyle:
Actually I run at you with a loaded "Double Mongolian Chop" just to set you up for a big round house to the leg. Just like my hero Sakuraba. :)

My spin kicks are set up with the "whipping pimp slaps" that I learned from Van Damme movies. They don't flail and it's not a huge windup! :mad:

Jaguar Wong

[CanadianBadAss]

So do you think a bjj guy could become as good as a boxer if he decided to use his bjj principles and theories standing up?

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[Tario]

Grappling...amazing.
We grapple after we spar and it's really a plus in our training system. Ehausting at that as well.
Let s just say I'm not "mute" if ever I fall on the floor in a confrontaionl attack/defence.

"..the more you sweat, the more you know yourself...."

[azwingchun]

I completely agree with everything you said, it sounds like you and I come from the same school of thought. And I also agree that my grappling is not the same as maybe the GJJ guys, though I do have faith in what I use, just a different way to the same results I guess. Though I have always felt this way, even when I was very young I felt what was possible on my feet was possible on the ground (for the most part). I never seperated what I learned, I just adapted it even though I may not have been taught to do it that way. And at the same time never felt I was *******izing my art. I honestly feel that many students today as well as the past, just follow thier teachers and don't look between the lines of thier arts, and miss out on what thier art has to offer. ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

BJJ, Sambo, Catch Wrestling - these arts really evolved ground fighting. While some stand up skills (Qin na) might apply on the ground, good ground fighting followed a different evoloutionary path.

The question you ask yourself, is do I want to stumble through the discovery phase or learn from people who already have a few generations experience?

This why I am looking at Sambo. It fits my Shuai Chiao, and for those 1 in 10 (average) fights I do not finish with a good throw, I'll now have a skill set that fits right in.

We need to free our minds, and look beyond stylistic predujice.

Just food for thought...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, Monkeyslap. That's basically why I decided to join a Judo club in addition to doing my Chang taijiquan.

Principles remain the same, but positioning changes so drastically (your back becomes your legs, your legs become arms) that you may as well get the skinny on how to adapt principles to this new positioning from someone who knows all about it.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[dooder]

I'm glad everyones talking about this. I'm lucky enough to have an encyclopedic teacher who teaches shuai chaio, chin na, monkey boxing and has studied western wrestling. I found shuai chaio to be a lot like the judo I've studied but much more viscous since it hasn't been turned into a sport. There's a big emphasis and really slaming the guy to the ground and making sure he lands head first with his arms tied up if you can plus we're tought to stike the whole way into the throw. We're taught everything stand up can be used on the ground with some modification and shuai chaio cernatly has groung fighting in the ciriculum. interestingly enough I have been told that it was sometimes thought to be dishonorable to be taken to the ground so some styles would emphasize techniques against being taken to the ground over actually ground fighting. Dog stylist will bite you too. I'm not sure about all wing chun schools/clans but I have heard of ones that have hardly any chin na and no throws. I think itss very likely they have lost that aspect of their style. My sifu had some long time wing chun people come to him learn his chi na because it wasn'tin there system. They didn't have much chi gong to speak of either. Do you studie in tuscon AZWingChun or up north?

[azwingchun]

I do believe that if there is something present in your art, even if it isn't the main objective then yes. I believe it is all in how you train. Is there punching and kicking in BJJ? Yes, I think some off these BJJ guys have done this already. ;)

[azwingchun]

Actually, I train here in Phoenix. Where in Phoenix do you train? I bet you I know? LOL

[This message was edited by azwingchun on 10-19-01 at 05:08 PM.]

[CanadianBadAss]

I'm pretty sure they didn't just apply their bjj principles to striking. They most likely did some X training with kickboxing or something...

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[azwingchun]

I couldn't tell you how the Gracie family art is put together or what is originally in thier arsenal. Though I do know that sometime ago I had meet up with some guys who did JJ and they had some striking in thier arts. Though they weren't power knock out strikes. So, I believe if these guys wanted to put more emphasis on striking, sure they could accompolish these skills. ;)

[Knifefighter]

I believe whether you choose to use these locks in a stand up position or on the ground the principles of joint manipulation doesn't change much.
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I totally disagree with this statement. You can’t use 90% of the stuff standing that you can on the ground. You cannot use mount, guard, side control, north/south, arm bar between the legs and all the variations thereof, a majority of chokes, key lock, not to mention leg locks (how the heck do you think you can get a leg lock while you and your opponent are standing?). And those groundfighting techs that you can use while standing are much less effective when standing. Same goes for using your standing techs while on the ground. Each of these areas has its own very specific principles.

Study

[MonkeySlap Too]

Chang style, I was a Judo teacher before I discovered Shuai Chiao. I am rapidly discovering that my Judo groundwork is in the dark ages compared to modern Sambo or Catch wrestling. Check it out. It's kinda how I felt about throwing when I discoverd Shuai Chiao. Nontheless, I still love Judo. Have fun. Some other Shuai Chiao teachers will diss you for it, but just learn, man that's what it is about.

Although - after a couple decades in this stuff, I can count on 1 finger the number of fights I went to the ground on, and my Judo served me well when it happened. I have found Shuai Chiao to be very efficient for having 'fun' in the street.

Dooder - classically Shuai Chiao has no ground fighting as it is known in the West. Unless you are exposed to some esoteric style - I find it unlikely.

But if you are talking about restraints after the throw and techniques for fighting the guy when he is down, yeah we have those - but not groundfighting as practiced by Shooto, BJJ, Sambo, etc.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[azwingchun]

I don't think you really got what I was saying. I do agree with some things in stand-up can't be used on the ground just as certain ground fighting locks can't be used while standing. The point I was making is that the basic principles of joint manipulation change very little. The way a joint locks doesn't change......or should I say the way the joints operates, if that makes sense. Sure, I would be stupid to try and grab your leg while standing and attempt to lock it, I would be a punching bag if I tried this. I hope this makes better sense. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Azwingchun:
While the principle of moving a joint beyond its natural range of motion is universal, the methods by which you can do so is different on the ground and standing. The majority of the finishes you can use on the ground cannot be done while standing.

I can think many finishes on the ground that you couldn't do while standing..

[Watchman]

You cannot use mount, guard, side control, north/south

I think what Knifefighter is also getting at is the fact that those positions listed above give you the control and the operating room to not only have an easier go at manipulating your opponent's joints than standing up, but also grant you a larger toolbox of submission options (like the leg and ankle locks).

It's easier for your opponent to slip out of a joint lock when you're both on your feet, but the possibility of him escaping is exponentially reduced when you've got a greater semblance of control over his possible body movement when you are using one of the above positions.

[azwingchun]

I don't think you and I disagree as much as you might think. I think we are looking past each other but on the same track. When I was speaking on this matter prior, I was speaking in general. This is why I didn't use any specific Chi Na techniques in general.

[azwingchun]

And I also agree 100% with you. :D

[Knifefighter]

Watchman:
The positioning is a large part of it, but there are also a majority of the finishes that you physically just can’t do while standing. I mentioned the standard arm bars, and leg locks (these include knee bars, figure four foot locks, heel hooks and achilles locks), but there are also the various triangles and the arm bars from each of these, the umaplata (shoulder lock), biceps compressions, and reverse arm bars to name a few.

[Shooter]

Tai Chi Fast Wrestling has it all.

[This message was edited by Shooter on 10-19-01 at 06:14 PM.]

[Watchman]

Agreed.

[SifuAbel]

Drunken monkey grabs and takedowns are NOT for submission style fighting. Most, if not all, of the takedowns are for hard slamming and mashing on the ground. The joint manipulations are for quick breaks. There is is positional techique on the ground but mostly for striking a grounded opponent. As with most monkey styles it is hit and move on type fighting. It isn't designed for "holding" the opponent. t

Are you immortal?

sifuabel@yahoo.
com

[Mr. Nemo]

I've never heard of or seen any kung fu style that has ground grappling with the same flavor and tactics as submission grappling. At my school, there is "falling" training, but its designed to keep the opponent off of you and get back up as soon as possible. In this training, a "fall" encompasses not only hitting the ground, but defending and getting back up.

The chinese attitude (at least, the attitude of the chinese I've been exposed to) is "If you're on your back (for any extended length of time), you're dead."

As for chin na working on the ground, much of chin na takes the opponent to the ground as part of the hold. Chinese throws, when completed for real, involve following the opponent to the ground and putting your weight on top of him to amplify the impact.

However, spending a lot of time on the ground and really fighting there, a la submission grappling, isn't part of the tactics of any kung fu style I've ever seen.

[CanadianBadAss]

Thanks for the info about Drunken Monkey, all I knew about it was from the few techniques my sifu showed me. And it was starting to look like a grappling system.

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[Knifefighter]

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Drunken monkey grabs and takedowns are NOT for submission style fighting. Most, if not all, of the takedowns are for hard slamming and mashing on the ground.

Chinese throws, when completed for real, involve following the opponent to the ground and putting your weight on top of him to amplify the impact.
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What makes you guys think submission fighting doesn't do hard throws? Of course it does. Anyone who can take their opponent out in a match with a throw will do so. What you don't understand is that it is extremely hard to finish your opponent with a throw, especially if he has a modicum of skill. The idea that you can take someone out with a throw is highly overrated, although it does happen occasionally.

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The joint manipulations are for quick breaks.
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How does a monkey "quick break" differ from a submission type lock?

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. As with most monkey styles it is hit and move on type fighting. It isn'tdesigned for "holding" the opponent.
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What happens when your opponent holds you??

[Mr. Nemo]

Hey, easy, man. I was just giving an example of when I've seen chinese styles go to the ground, not saying chinese throws were better than any other type of throw. Also, when you're gonna quote sifuabel and me, please make it clear when you're quoting him and when you're quoting me, in your post it's confusing.

[Knifefighter]

Nemo:
Sorry. It's just that I've heard from so many people that the throws and locks of submssion fighting are somehow gentler than the "real" throws and breaks of their supposed deadly systems.

For the record, the first quote about the throws was from Abel, the second quote regarding throws was from Nemo, and all the other quotes were from Abel.,

[SifuAbel]

Thanks for the "record".......http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/yeees.gif


What makes you guys think submission fighting doesn't do hard throws?
________________________________________________

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/bangin.gif Who said it didn't? Where did y ou get that from? Why are you defending what is not being attacked? We were talking about Monkey..... :rolleyes:

________________________________________________

How does a monkey "quick break" differ from a submission type lock?

I suppose you could but:
"As with most monkey styles it is hit and move on type fighting. It isn't designed for "holding" the opponent. What don't you get?

___________________________________________ _____


What happens when your opponent holds you??

What else? You keep fighting until you have either escaped or died. Why the drama?

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/toilet_claw.gif

Are you immortal?

sifuabel@yahoo.co mmoG

[Knifefighter]

Who said it didn't? Where did y ou get that from? Why are you defending what is not being attacked? We were talking about Monkey.....
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I got that from what you posted… "Drunken monkey grabs and takedowns are NOT for submission style fighting. Most, if not all, of the takedowns are for hard slamming and mashing on the ground." A reasonably intelligent person would conclude that you are saying that you were making a distinction between monkey and submission fighting and that somehow these monkey throws are harder than those done in submission fighting/grappling.


================================================== ======
I suppose you could but"As with most monkey styles it is hit and move on type fighting. It isn't designed for "holding" the opponent. What don't you get?
================================================== ======
Well, supposedly you have rolled with BJJ guys. I would think you would be able to explain the difference in the types of breaks.

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Why the drama?
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No drama… just clarifying what seems to be some mistaken assumptions.

[jjj]

Knifefighter is correct.

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"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[jjj]

Here is one of Sifuabel's favorite secret techniques:
http://www.geocities.com/jiujitsujedi/monkeykf.mpg
(right click save as...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Braden]

Since this seems to be as good a place as any to ask...

What do you guys think about groundfighting strategies for us skinny dudes? At 150lb, I'm less than confident using cross-body, knee on chest, and even mount type positions since I'm used to "playing" with people alot bigger than me. I've checked out some of Mario Sperry's Vale Tudo series, thinking that kind of strategy would be ideal, but he still seems to rely alot on "putting your entire bodyweight" to pin someone.

Is it just a testament to my extreme inexperience that the big lads can roll me off of a cross-body, and will I one day be able to dominate them with ease, or are skinny dudes stuck to relying on the guard and taking the back?

Will catch wrestling, sambo or other methods be better than BJJ? I always figured BJJ was groundfighting for skinnies.

If this doesn't make any sense it's because I'm mostly a moron. But I think it makes some kind of sense...

[Knifefighter]

Braden:
Sperry is a bigger guy and uses a big man’s strategy. Smaller guys can hold the top position (although lighter guys end up on their back a lot and usually develop good guard techs), but need a lot of mobility and positional changes to hold the top against bigger guys. Small guys usually have a faster, looser game than the bigger guys who use their size for tight, controlling hold-downs.
®

[jjj]

>>Is it just a testament to my extreme inexperience that the big lads can roll me off of a cross-body, and will I one day be able to dominate them with ease<<

Yes, give yourself some time (6 mos to a year consistant training) and you will see a world of difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Shooter]

Braden, if you practice mount against bigger guys, keep your arms out wide and don't try to go for submissions. Wait until they move and try not to keep your weight down when they do roll. They'll turn under you rather than rolling you with them. You want to keep your shoulders unweighted as though you're sky-diving. This puts lots of weight at your hips. You have to be able to change it quickly as they roll though.

For cross-body, chest-to-chest pressure and keep your back loose, not rigid. You have to keep your hips mobile.

For knee-on-belly/chest, use the same basic dynamic as the Hawk (Bagua) Snake (Tai Chi) posture. You can add down-force by lifting up on the opp's head (jacketless), or pulling his lapels/sleeves (jacketed) toward your own shoulders. Keep your back vertical, and your extended foot mobile.

Real ground-fighting shouldn't be as focused on positional control as on getting back to the feet while doing as much damage as you can along the way. Tai Chi Fast Wrestling has it all though.

Here's something I posted here a while ago. It's a mount and pound application for ground-fighting, but it will give you some opportunities for subs if you're just doing submission wrestling:

One of the things we train in Vale Tudo style and Fast Wrestling is to post a foot and a knee while mounted. This lifts the hips off the opp high enough to negate his bridge/roll. It keeps the hands free to punch/palm strike, but keeps the bottom man contained long enough to KO him.

The escape window for the bottom man is narrow. But if properly timed, he can hook the top man's leg of his posted foot as he posts it, and pull himself under and through as the top man's hips lift off him. Poorly timed, he gets triangled, or armlocked in an arm-and-leg figure-4 trying to escape. (if the top man posts his right foot, the bottom man hooks the right leg with his left forearm and spins through to escape, or at least create a scramble)

The proper posture for posting the foot and knee is to be as upright as possible, and tip the shoulder opposite the posted foot as the posted side is the power side. (right foot posted - right shoulder high = right side is the power side) The left hand can be used to strike down as a pinning strike which is quickly followed by the right hand. The strikes should descend as vertically as possible.

[This message was edited by Shooter on 10-22-01 at 07:45 PM.]

[Xebsball]

Diference between a quick break and a submission lock.
I think i can answer this quite simply.

In the submission you can hold it and the other person can tap. In a quick break you just break his bone right away, with no time for tapping. In this quick break ones if you give him time to tap he can escape, so they have to be done right away.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Reima Kostaja]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

What you don't understand is that it is extremely hard to finish your opponent with a throw, especially if he has a modicum of skill. The idea that you can take someone out with a throw is highly overrated, although it does happen occasionally.

[/quote]

kf, do you mean throw on mat or on concerete?

[Merryprankster]

Don't have tons of time, but I like this thread enough to respond.

It's not about concrete, it's about making the person fall in such a way that they are incapacitated. It's much harder to do on a resisting opponent than you might think. Getting them on the ground isn't so hard. Dropping them so they are out of the game is much harder.

You cannot apply standing techniques the same way on the ground... reiterating what others have said, I know :) I'm just agreeing.

For a 150 lb skinny tall guy, if you develop a good series of open guard sweeps, the world will open itself up to you. It's like having an extra set of hands....

And for keeping side mount as a small guy, I've had great success with the following on persons much bigger than me:

Reach under your opponents head, and grab their shoulder (gi, grab gi. No gi, grab and grip as well as you can.) Place your shoulder on their chin/face. Hip down that side, and adjust your position in such a way that your bodyweight and pressure are concentrated on their chin.

You have now effectively pinned their head. This reduces their ability to create space because their hips have lost a good deal of arc swing. I usually place a hand near/on the hip to further control movement, but the whole thing sets up nice for knee-on-belly, or step over to mount.

I learned this from a purple who learned it from Rickson, and I have to say, it made a big difference in my controlling ability.

Oops, I'm late for work :)

Bye!!!

[LEGEND]

Merry...I have to agree...I do wish to train we u sometime...I only have one sweep tech...don't know much about sweeps...usually I'll give them my back then pull a F. Shamrock or Lions Den move and roll out...but I would love to have the smoothness of a purple belt and above sweeps!

A

[Jaguar Wong]

Shooter, you seem to have relatively good knowledge Kung Fu as well as gound fighting (vale tudo, or bjj, I'm not sure which you know). Where do you train? Tai Chi fast wrestling sounds pretty interesting, and I would like to know more about it.

If you don't want to clutter this one, or create a separate thread, you can email me (jaguar@superaction.com).

Merryprankster, sounds like some good details on the sidemount. I could really use that. My problem is that I've been a small guy for so long, but now I find my self on the larger end of the scale, but I still try to fight like a little guy. Actually, some of the guys I play with are bigger/stronger than I am, so I really find myself confused when learning this stuff :)

I have a problem keeping the side mount (cross body?), and I forsee even more problems, now that I'm training more often, and working toward my "little guy" staus again. Your suggestions should really help, but my problem is that I don't know how to escape the side mount (I find myself caught underneath it plenty of times). Usually someone will take the side mount, and then work for a better position from there (knee on stomach, or full mount), but since I suck at escapes, they usually hang out in the side mount, and just take a submission from there.

I also have a problem reversing/escaping the full mount as well, but who doesn't :)

Jaguar Wong

[Jaguar Wong]

and Jiu Jitsu Jedi, Abel and KF seem to be having a relatively mature debate about the differences (as opposed to some of the stuff that's been going on lately), so I did think your post was kind of a sucker punch to Abel.

I thought the clip was funny (I had to stifle the laughter when the monkey dropped). :) Your timing was a bit off, though. You should have held onto it until you came under attack. Rules of iEngagement, ya know.

Jaguar Wong

[Shaolindynasty]

Not in a real fight but while sparring I used a leg catch and sweeped the base leg and pushed up on the traped leg. My partner twisted and went pretty high up in the air and landed real funny on his back, he was down for awhile and out of training for a couple of weeks, he also complained for months that his back hurt. I told him I was sorry he was getting treatment from my Sifu so he was ok. I couldn't do that move until that day. I had alot of trouble with the mechanics but after my Sifu explained them to me I got it, I wish he would have told me I didn't need to use my full strength ;) My partner was trained in break falls and I asked him if he could fall "right" when I threw him and he said no. Throwing an opponent to finsh the fight is hard but with enough skill and training it can be done. :D

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[KC Elbows]

It appears that someone else aleady posted in answer to the comments on monkey not being for submission, but I can't help myself.

The few monkey techniques I know follow the principles Abel put forward. They tend to involve breaks at angles that are not good for submissions(too much opportunity for escape, really just enough time for a violent strike), so no, they are not submission holds. I think Abel's comment was misconstrued, as he was not saying that submission arts lack martial content, nor did he really infer so. He simply stated that monkey doesn't utilize submissions. As for what to do when the opponent holds you, I suppose that depends on what techniques you have to work with. The monkey I have the most experience with is not a style on sticks with constantly, it supplements a larger body of animal styles, so one might not stick with monkey if circumstance makes the monkey stylist unable to hit and run. Unfortunately, the animal styles are not my core art, so I cannot really give a good answer to what the monkey stylist should do when held. I'll ask my sifu tomorrow.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Braden go with BJJ, but just like any other art you got to give it some time. At first you'll end up in guard quite a bit. After awhile with better sweeps/takedowns you'll start to get on top. When your on top ya gotta stay MOBILE, go from cross-mount, to north-south to knee on belly and such. IMO its actually harder to control mount the cross body on much bigger people. If you do get mount ALWAYS grapevine your legs, keep your arms wide, and try to "dig" your hips into him.

[Watchman]

Jag and Braden,

Here's something from a Wing Chun perspective that you may consider experiementing with:

When you drop down into a side control position (cross-body) on a bigger person what you can do is use something that looks like the turtle position, with your arms on one side of your opponent and your knees tucked up underneath your hips and tight to your opponent's other side.

Dig down with your elbows while you use your hands to grasp his shoulder and side while you keep your knees tucked. You imagine trying to touch your elbows to your knees through your opponent's body.

Don't commit 100% of your weight on top of him, but use your knees and elbow pressure to keep him trapped underneath you (if he tries to roll out toward your legs, having your knees tucked up will provide you a good base to prevent that, and if he tries to roll out through your arms, just suck your elbows in and let him use his strength to pull your base along with him). This way, it makes it difficult for him to just use his strength to buck you off, and if he tries to elevator you off with his arm strength your knees are underneath you to pop right up into a knee ride.

Keeping your knees tucked up helps with your mobility because your legs are already underneath you so you can get back upright if you have to (and have a clear path).

BTW Jag, I'll be down your way this Saturday if I'm still invited.

[Jaguar Wong]

The invitation always stands, but I won't be there this week, though :(. I've got a lot of stuff to catch up on around the house. Tigerstyle should still be there, so it's the same thing (since we're twins and all :)). Thanks for the info about the side mount That's the way I try to do it all the time, but I just have a hard time moving to another position from there.

Jaguar Wong

[Braden]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Kind of scary that I can get better feedback here on BJJ than I can on kungfu. And I don't mean that as a slight against the BJJ guys.

*ducks*

[Knifefighter]

Personally, I don't consider both elbows on the far side of the opponent to be a very secure position, especially for little guys. I think it is better to keep the bottom arm on the near side at the opponent's hip, or if it is on the far side, to have an underhook and the other arm controlling the near side arm combined with a judo-type pin. If you do use both elbows on the far side, make sure you have the opponent's near side arm trapped tightly above your top knee. If this arm is not trapped, your opponent can escape pretty easily.

I like the upper arm behind the head and the lower hand next to the inside of the hip for maximum control. The problem with this hold down is that it limits your submissions. For more submission opportunities, I prefer the top elbow on the far side of the neck and the bottom hand at the hip. This lets you search for submissions on both of the opponent's arms, work for chokes, and gives you lots of mobility to switch positions.

[Rinpoche]

Interesting topic but really flogging a dead horse though. A simple reference...

1-BJJ from Jujitsu
2-Jujitsu from Japan
3-Japan styles from China (version of Chin Na)

:rolleyes: hence any Kung Fu instructor that can't grapple or doesn't knows chin na is a fraud an dangerous in teaching anyone! They are still a student themselves!! I am so shocked when I see sifus that can't grapple or don't know chin na. Almost any style has it, if you know your style deep enough and your instructor was at a level to actually be teaching?

Monkey is another style of kung fu that teaches attacking form the ground alot. We use hands and legs for fighting, whether we're standing or lying, it doesn't matter. Really, any teacher can take a technique and use it from any position. Randy Williams, Wing Chun(WC) guru, also has this opinion and has shown how WC is effectively used from anywhere and does it well. I simply think that it is the problem of those with education in martial arts uncompleted trying to find failings in other arts so they feel more satisfied that their "skilled" and that's called a "self-fullfilling prophecy game." I personanly have grappled BJJ, Judo, Grecko, shuai chiao, and all have the same appoach and I've won because I know what I am doing, so that has no reflection on those styles, simply the people I sparred and grappled.

Ironically, one BJJ stylist wanted to show me the "undefeatable" hold, so I humored him, plus I was curious. He put me into a mounted position, guillotined me, arm barred me, and then crushed my small ribs wuth his legs. Yes, it hurt:eek: ...but I simply grabbed his groin with my other hand, crushed his testicles, then when his grasp on my other arm that was barred was released, I edge an eye gouge in. Match over! He was so angry because he was used to others trying to "grapple" him and I simply hurt him. Point was proven with someone that knows how to get out of those holds. Try it when needed it works;)

Keep an open mind and humbly go to other schools, if you truely wish to learn, and ask for demonstration and teachings on this subject. Many might find teachers willing to go over this.

[Rinpoche]

Interesting topic but really flogging a dead horse though. A simple reference...

1-BJJ from Jujitsu
2-Jujitsu from Japan
3-Japan styles from China (version of Chin Na)

:rolleyes: hence any Kung Fu instructor that can't grapple or doesn't know chin na is a fraud an dangerous in teaching anyone! They are still a student themselves!! I am so shocked when I see sifus that can't grapple or don't know chin na. Almost any style has it, if you know your style deep enough and your instructor was at a level to actually be teaching?

Monkey is another style of kung fu that teaches attacking form the ground alot. We use hands and legs for fighting, whether we're standing or lying, it doesn't matter. Really, any teacher can take a technique and use it from any position. Randy Williams, Wing Chun(WC) guru, also has this opinion and has shown how WC is effectively used from anywhere and does it well. I simply think that it is the problem of those with education in martial arts uncompleted trying to find failings in other arts so they feel more satisfied that their "skilled" and that's called a "self-fullfilling prophecy game." I personanly have grappled BJJ, Judo, Grecko, shuai chiao, and all have the same appoach and I've won because I know what I am doing, so that has no reflection on those styles, simply the people I sparred and grappled.

Ironically, one BJJ stylist wanted to show me the "undefeatable" hold, so I humored him, plus I was curious. He put me into a mounted position, guillotined me, arm barred me, and then crushed my small ribs wuth his legs. Yes, it hurt:eek: ...but I simply grabbed his groin with my other hand, crushed his testicles, then when his grasp on my other arm that was barred was released, I edge an eye gouge in. Match over! He was so angry because he was used to others trying to "grapple" him and I simply hurt him. Point was proven with someone that knows how to get out of those holds. Try it when needed it works;)

Keep an open mind and humbly go to other schools, if you truely wish to learn, and ask for demonstration and teachings on this subject. Many might find teachers willing to go over this.

[Mr. Nemo]

"He put me into a mounted position, guillotined me, arm barred me, and then crushed my small ribs wuth his legs."

He guillotined you and armbarred you at the same time, while squeezing your ribs from the mount? How the hell did he do that? Were you grappling an octopus?

[This message was edited by Mr. Nemo on 10-23-01 at 03:30 PM.]

[Mr. Nemo]

Oh wait, I just noticed you're from Frederick, Maryland. That explains it.

Your profile actually states that your occupation is "Maryland." Does that pay well? Does it have dental?

[Knifefighter]

================================================== ==
any teacher can take a technique
and use it from any position.

Ironically, one BJJ stylist wanted to show me the "undefeatable" hold, so I humored him, plus I was
curious. He put me into a mounted position, guillotined me, arm barred me, and then crushed my small
ribs wuth his legs.

…but I simply grabbed his groin with my other hand, crushed his
testicles, then when his grasp on my other arm that was barred was released, I edge an eye gouge in.
================================================== =======

From these statements, it is pretty obvious he hasn't done much, if any, grappling

[Watchman]

Personally, I don't consider both elbows on the far side of the opponent to be a very secure position, especially for little guys.

Point taken, and at the same time we may have different definitions of what a "secure" position is because of different fighting approaches.

Both elbows on the far side go a long way in helping me secure my opponent's body movement enough to drop point-of-elbow strikes into the top and side of his head, as well as acting as a brace and leverage point to bring in sliding knee strikes from the other side.

However, from a more refined submission/joint manipulation point of view, I would tend to agree with you (considering my limited ground submission knowledge).

If you do use both elbows on the far side, make sure you have the opponent's near side arm trapped tightly above your top knee. If this arm is not trapped, your opponent can escape pretty easily.

Point taken, and as a matter of fact that is something I have noticed and been working on lately (keeping the near arm trapped).

I have found some effectiveness with this position IF I keep a "floating" nature about it - meaning I keep from 100% weight committment and am able to flow back and forth from side control, to what you would consider a Knee Ride position, and back again in order to both manage my opponent's escape attempts AND keep the blows raining down.

For more submission opportunities, I prefer the top elbow on the far side of the neck and the bottom hand at the hip.

Again, good point.

[Braden]

Rinpoche - That's a pretty weak argument for this reason: You develop skill in what you train, not in what can, in principal, be linked to the style(s) you train in. You see the converse kind of flawed reasoning CONSTANTLY here (and elsewhere) from people who want to believe their art contains all of value from another art - especially prevalent is the "our art contains BJJ!" argument you have offered, and the "our art contains the skills of the internal arts if you really understand it!" heard elsewhere. Both are ridiculous. If you want skill on the ground, you have to train on the ground. If you train on the ground now and test your stuff against a variety of styles, good for you. Most kungfu practitioners (even that small minority who actually train traditionally for combat) do not train on the ground. Even if you do have ground methods in your style, they are not the same methods as BJJ. And even if they are (which they're not, but for sake of discussion) then enrolling in a BJJ school will give you an excellent format for _ACTUALLY TRAINING THEM_ which is what you have to do to develop skill. Simply having them "in principal" or worse "in historic connection" is utterly useless - worse, dangerous because it makes you deluded.

General comments on the thread -

Is it just me or has this become a cool thread? My general reflex both from bagua training and pre-bagua 'experience' has been to try to control the hips and keep pressure on the neck. From the comments here, it sounds like this continues to be pretty true in BJJ.

[Air Force One]

"From these statements, it is pretty obvious he hasn't done much, if any, grappling "

You should have let JiuJitsuJedi say that for you.


Knifefighter and Jedi were having a spat
Deciding which handle to use
When after a while
KFO members smiled
And decided their posts were a ruse!

You really need him Knife!

[Air Force One]

"From these statements, it is pretty obvious he hasn't done much, if any, grappling"

Yeah he probably needs to watch more videos huh?

[Grappling-Insanity]

Brett you sound like the troll.

[Shooter]

>"Even if you do have ground methods in your style, they are not the same methods as BJJ. And even if they are (which they're not, but for sake of discussion) then enrolling in a BJJ school will give you an excellent format for _ACTUALLY TRAINING THEM_ which is what you have to do to develop skill. Simply having them "in principal" or worse "in historic connection" is utterly useless - worse, dangerous because it makes you deluded"<

Braden, I can only speak for myself when I say that I agree with the above...but I also disagree.

None of the Tai Chi principals change from standing to ground. Sticking, Following, Linking Adhering, the 8 Gates, listening, mind/intention...still all there. It's what all movement and combative relationship is based on.

The level at which you grapple and groundfight is determined by your level of energy management, circular skill. and how well you convert your energy to peng.

I've rolled with a few BJJ guys who had awesome functional peng on the ground. By functional, I mean they applied the principals listed above and managed their energy as a Tai Chi player is taught to.

Ming, An, or Hua, determines the level of technical proficiency and tactic. On the ground, a high level BJJer who doesn't use raw strength/power/ming has good Tai Chi mechanics. Simple as that.

Tai Chi Fast Wrestling is what that's all about. It's important to not get caught up in the game though. Fast Wrestling is focused on survival - Not winning. If you train the BJJ game, you lose the focus, but it's still all within the game - Just not with the same emphasis or purpose.

BJJ training is focused a lot on positional control...Fast Wrestling is focused on recovering the upright (standing) dynamic as quickly as possible. With the inclusion of Chin-na though, the same positional submission stuff arises with time spent gaining the skill. Kung Fu?

Time spent Fast Wrestling yeilds the same eclectic attacks on the limbs and neck that all submission wrestling styles have at their core. Again, it’s important not to get caught up in the game and instead, focus on the shortest path to survival. That’s really the only difference other than the idea of doing as much damage as possible. That means not waiting for buddy to tap. Snap, crackle, pop, and keep moving (read: no techniques - just flow, lock and break). Of course, BJJ, or any grappling system geared toward real fighting is going to be trained along similar lines. There are no styles when it comes to survival.

As you know, Chin-na is a much broader set of skills than “submissions” though. As is the mind/body/intention/listening/energy training of Tai Chi. Fast Wrestling just works those things in a grappling and ground-fighting format. But it’s all cut from the same piece of Tai Chi silk.

As an aside, I like the fact that Tai Chi is more concerned with the cooperative, rather than the combative relationship. Hard to keep that perspectiive if one invests so much energy training sensibly instead of sensitively.

JMO

[jjj]

================================================== ==
any teacher can take a technique
and use it from any position.
Ironically, one BJJ stylist wanted to show me the "undefeatable" hold, so I humored him, plus I was
curious. He put me into a mounted position, guillotined me, arm barred me, and then crushed my small
ribs wuth his legs.

…but I simply grabbed his groin with my other hand, crushed his
testicles, then when his grasp on my other arm that was barred was released, I edge an eye gouge in.
================================================== =======

From these statements, it is pretty obvious he hasn't done much, if any, grappling

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Merryprankster]

Jaguar Wong,

I'm not sure I understand... you need help ESCAPING from the side mount, or you need help going to something else once you ATTAIN side mount?

As far as "little guy/big guy" stuff, I don't deny that it is easier to move you around if you are little, but good is good... little guys don't have to be good at guard and big guys don't have to be good up top.

I weigh 195, and I learned guard.... lots and lots and lots of guard, because I kept getting thrown to the wolves as a white belt... our purples, our biggest blue, our more experienced blues, Rhadi Ferguson, who is now a purple, but any way you look at it is a formidible opponent for anybody, and guard is probably the easiest position to frustrate somebody in.

But one of our purples is 145 lbs and feels like 10000 when he's on top! Just learn what works for you and keep at it.

[LEGEND]

Brett sounds like a troll with his 18 posts...sorry dood...u haven't been here long enuf to earn anyone respect...lol

A

[Rinpoche]

"That's a pretty weak argument for this reason: You develop skill in what you train, not in what can, in principal, be linked to the style(s) you train in. You see the converse kind of flawed reasoning CONSTANTLY here (and elsewhere)"

Which arguement is that Braden? I'm not sure I follow where I was arguing anything, but only giving a simple view and thought on this subject. As for saying that linking something is flawed you must have no understanding of history and the revelance of your roots. Our roots show us what the foundation of a system in martial arts consists of and why.

It was not in any portion of the statement that I posted stating that it was what you have to do in your approach to the art..please quote me more correctly thank you. I was simply showing that in the point of some thinking that something is lacking in a style and then practicing one that has origins in that style. They need to look deeper and they might find the link showing where their art's principle came form, that they think makes it better than another older and related style.

Sorry, I really want my points made clear and not muddled on a facless posting board, so I am not categorized under some misunderstood point that another was attenpting to translate for their own interpretations. It was merely a statement and personal thought.

[STUDD WILSON]

Yeah Brett may very well be a troll but Knifefukker is the ultimate troll.
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
lol
there

[STUDD WILSON]

Is Rinpoche a troll too? He only has three posts.

[Jaguar Wong]

Merryprankster,
I'm sorry, I kind of flowed off subject. I really didn't expect any type of response, I was just pointing out one of my weaknesses. I need help escaping the sidemount when someone else has it. Then again, I also need to learn how to do the side mount better, so I can transition to another position if I had to.

I also agree that there aren't really any size biases in BJJ. My friend weighs around 235 - 240, but he fights very well from the guard. He's a very aggressive grappler, but he's refined his guard so well that he even shocks the people he trains with. Of course the people he rolls against are huge/strong (like Eric Pele and Marvin Eastman from King of the Cage). In fact, he just won a sport jiu jitsu tournament recently (last month, or something like that), and he fought predominatly from the guard. The guys at the JSect Academy gave him a hard time about it, because he's usually so aggressive, so they thought it was funny that he used it so much.

When he would teach us, he basically spent most of the time in the guard, so we could learn how to pass, and take the side, and full mount, but he would also practice things like taking a half guard (when we were trying to pass), and spinning us around for a knee bar. He's on his way to becoming a freakin' leg lock monster. They're his favorite, because according to him, once they're locked on, it's a lot harder to escape than most of the upper body locks. That and all the BJJers he rolls with really don't expect too many leg locks.

Jaguar Wong

[Jockwurst]

We all know knife****er is a troll. Let it go and let him troll. He has his little group of prepube suck ups and thats about it. All that he or they can ever hope to do is pound harder on their keyboards (or, well you know).

[Braden]

Shooter - I agree with everything you said. My only point was that you have to actually train it. Alot of people say what you just said (ie. applying the energies on the ground) but they never actually try to do it, believing that understanding it in principle is good enough. While I agree that those fundamentals from taiji can translate to the ground, I still think that if you want to survive against a skilled ground opponent, you'll still have had to actually try to use them on the ground.

Rinpoche - "As for saying that linking something is flawed you must have no understanding of history and the revelance of your roots."

Understanding the history of your art is an interesting and sometimes fun thing to do. However, what you train is still what you train. If you don't train groundfighting, and your style is historically linked to groundfighting, you still don't train groundfighting. I didn't think that was difficult to understand.

[Merryprankster]

Several variations to escaping side mount.

Here are some ones I use:

1. Good ol' fashioned bump and shrimp. You're trying to get that knee jammed up in there to create space. I find a combination of pushing on their face/shoulder, works well for this. Remember that you want to turn to your SIDE when you do this. If you stay flat you've just wasted energy. You are trying to get parallel to him. Worry about the fancy stuff later. Work on getting more parallel. This isn't an instant escape. You might have to work at it for awhile. Go half-guard as soon as you can and work from there.

2. Bump and get your far arm underneath his armpit. Your near arm needs to be on/near his hip to keep him from swinging north/south. Once you have your hand from the far arm burried beneath his armpit, you're ready to go. Bump and keep your hips off the ground. Take the near leg, and LEG UNDER your far leg. You want your body to move through 90 degrees. You should wind up parallel to him, facing him. After you've done this a few times, you'll figure out how to flow into the guard from that spot (post and sit through).

3. This is more of taking advantage of a mistake: If they get their weight too far down on your stomach or too far across their body, one hand on the knee, one on their shoulder, bridge and roll... you might not reverse them, but you'll make enough space to get under for guard.

These are the two that I use most often. I'm sure there are others, but probably variations on a theme.

[Knifefighter]

Oh, I see the three little beotches are following me around again.[

[Shooter]

Braden, understood. :cool:

[Rinpoche]

Braden, have you actually even read what I posted or are you simply looking to argue from behind a keboard? Not going to continue, so let's move on from snippet responses and false interpretation...please sir.

POINT, so even you can see what I mean
[[The aspects of learning the history of your art allows you to see if it has, and almost all do, links to martial arts that have grappling, chin na, etc...then you can see that your art is not limited by a name of a style.]]

Out of simply curiosity...do you teach and how long have you been in martial arts?

[Jockwurst]

Dont flatter yourself you cheap little fraud
b!tch.

[Braden]

Instead of just attacking me, why don't you point out where I've misinterpreted you.

It seems pretty clear from your posts that you're attacking people cross-training, and it seems pretty clear from my posts that I'm defending people cross-training. The relationship didn't seem to me to be particularly subtle.

But besides which, it seems like you don't know what you're talking about:

"1-BJJ from Jujitsu
2-Jujitsu from Japan
3-Japan styles from China (version of Chin Na)

hence any Kung Fu instructor that can't grapple or doesn't know chin na is a fraud an dangerous in teaching anyone!"

BJJ is completely unlike any version of chin na. Whether or not it is derived from one is, functionally, a useless question to ask.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Actually BJJ is from Judo, but hey what do I know compared to the great Rinpoche.

[JWTAYLOR]

I'll admit it, my sidemount sucks. It sucks bad. Behind the head and hip pin is about all I can do, and then I can't figure out anything to do but try to get to the top from there. If I'm on the side I go for knees to the head, or if I'm submission only I just try to get to the top. I'm sure that I could get better, but I am totally lacking formal instruction now.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Mr. Nemo]

"BJJ is completely unlike any version of chin na. Whether or not it is derived from one is, functionally, a useless question to ask."

Braden is correct.

[Merryprankster]

JWT,

I find going to Knee on belly pretty successful from the head and hip pin.

1. Take the hand near/on his hip and place it, on their far side hip. Grab their gi/belt or not if no gi. You want your forearm to be like a baseball bat across the hips.

2. The hand that is behind the head should grab their gi, thumb in, behind their head. If no gi, cradle the back of their neck with your hand.

3. Move the knee closest to their lower body close to their hip.

4. When the time comes, pull UP on their head/gi with the one hand, and push down with the forearm/hand near their hips as you slide your knee across and pop up to knee on belly.


It'll take some practice to figure out exactly how much space you need and exactly when to do it.

[Braden]

Knifefighter or others -

Re: Sperry is a big man with a big man's strat.

Can you recommend any resources showing a good small man's strat, ideally with a vale tudo rather than sport BJJ orientation?

Muchos gracias.

[Knifefighter]

Braden:
You can watch the lightweights in most MMA venues to see illustrations of this.

As far as instructional tapes, I don't know of any off-hand. It's funny, but it seems like the vale-tudo instructional tapes are all done by the big guys..

[chokeyouout2]

A guillotine from the mount.Dear sir, armbars are for breaking arms.Not for saying ouch.You will not grab anyones balls or poke eyes.That is complete horse****.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[SevenStar]

yeah, it's old as dirt, but it kinda flows in the direction I wanted my "Ultimate Grappling Thread" to go. I found this thread while searching for something else, but found it as a pretty good read.

[neptunesfall]

nice thread to bring back from the dead.
oh sh.it i made a rhyme.

for shuai chiao fighters with more training than i do....how do you deal with people trying to keep you on the ground?

[rogue]

After reading this thread I really have to get back to training get my black belt and achieve that goal. After that it's to the mats.

[SevenStar]

Go for it!

[neptunesfall]

right on rogue. train hard, then train harder. one day hopefully we'll be congratulating you.