Just Pondering....

[DRleungjan]

Hello all,

I witnessed a very interesting conversation between a WC instructor and a student the other day, mind you this was very informal. He explained how many ppl in this day and age mistake WC's simplicity with inefficiency and then went on to explain that within the arts simplicity lied very complex principles that would take years to master. Deep stuff to my ears indeed.

The student asked the instructor about the offensive qualities of the three defensive hands...tan....bong...fook (he had heard about this before from someone else). The instructor showed him a couple of scenarios in which this was done. As I was intently watching the words Lin Siu Dai Da or Simultaneous Defense/Offense leaped into my mind. Now based on what I have witnessed and pondered upon, my questions (since I did not go far in my WC studies) would be.....

a) can these defensive maneuvers actually be used offensively ?

b) am I right to assume that this would fall under the Lin Siu Dai Da principle?

I would love to hear your opinions or corrections on the subject. Thanks in advance.

Have a great day! :)

[Airdrawndagger]

A- YES
B- YES

Usually you will bong, fauk, tan with one hand and strike with the other when you are doing Lin Siu Dai Da, however you can (very rarly) double bong, fauk, tan which is totally defensive. But, you could also do a double bong, fauk, tan and kick, sweep, knee, etc. and you would still be practicing Lin Siu Dai Da. So if you do not strike with your legs and double bong, fauk, tan, then you would be totally defensive...wait...you could headbutt too or bite...
Yes its complicated. But you get the general point. It is a common goal when fighting using WC to Lin Siu dai dao but offten it doesn't happen that way, alot of people will still just attack or just defend without simultanious attack/defense. I see more people who will just defend and when they see there opening, counter-attack. Or just offense and pay no attention to the strikes comming from the attacker. Sloopy kung fu at best, but thats why it takes along time to be proficient.

[_William_]

Tan, and bong can, and should be, used aggressively to set up a positional advantage for attack. I think fook is a little harder to use in this way, but you can use it in an aggressive manner by hooking the opponents arms forward, which sets up a backfist with the same hand very nicely.

[DRleungjan]

Hi _William_ and Airdrawndagger,

Thanks for settling some of my doubts. You know how it goes.....that when curiosity strikes....the mind just goes crazy with inquiries. *shrugs*


Airdrawndagger, you said,


Yes its complicated. But you get the general point. It is a common goal when fighting using WC to Lin Siu dai dao but offten it doesn't happen that way, alot of people will still just attack or just defend without simultanious attack/defense.

Are there any solo drills that can be practiced (as at the present I don't have access to a qualified instructor) to reach this end?

_William_, you said,


Tan, and bong can, and should be, used aggressively to set up a positional advantage for attack. I think fook is a little harder to use in this way, but you can use it in an aggressive manner by hooking the opponents arms forward, which sets up a backfist with the same hand very nicely.

You stated above using them aggressively to set up a positional advantage, you mean that they are just stricly 'setup' techniques? Now the Tan,Bong, just by themselves, can they be considered offensive techniques in some cases? I apologize in advance for these questions...just trying to get a sense of what I perceive.

[_William_]

You stated above using them aggressively to set up a positional advantage, you mean that they are just stricly 'setup' techniques? Now the Tan,Bong, just by themselves, can they be considered offensive techniques in some cases? I apologize in advance for these questions...just trying to get a sense of what I perceive.

No need to apologize at all... Nobody has all the answers so don't worry about it,

It depends on what exactly you mean by 'offensive' technique. If an offensive technique must be a strike, then I say that no, Tan and Bong cannot be considered offensive.

However in my opinion to 'aggressively set up a positional advantage' is by nature an offensive maneuver, ie. you will be hitting soon or immediately after. Pak is also very good for this purpose.

[DRleungjan]

Hi _William_

The only reason I had to ask was because when I had witnessed what I had stated in my first post.....one of the things that the instructor mentioned was that although these hands were primarily defensive in nature (or as you have enlightened me to be used aggressively as setup techniques for positional advantage) that other principles could be applied in extreme scenarios. One of the things he showed was the Tan as being a striking technique if used with the biu jee principle and proceeded with his Tan to within inches of the student's throat (he kept his palm facing up so I assumed it as an extended Tan*shrugs*). And on another occassion he showed how a bong could become an elbow...he did step in and shift when he did this. He did clarify however that these were rare circumstances and not the norm.


Many thanks, you have made it as clear as the blue sky on a sunny day! :D

[anerlich]

Like the guy said, you can poke the guy in the eyes or throat with a tan, or do it with a closed fist, so it's a bit like a diagonal uppercut or Xingyi "drilling" punch. Fook you can use to grab the back of the neck per the MT neck tie for hook punches, elbows, knees, or to turn the head in preparation for a takedown or strikes.

The bon/elbow thing I'm not convinced about, IMO the energy of a good elbow strike differs markedly from a bon, though you can flow nicely from a bon into an elbow.

That's just for striking. Just about any movement can be used to attack the balance or off-position your opponent.

While I respect the subject of the story and his explanations, I regard this as good common sense rather than any sort of huge revelatory insight. IMO there's far too much making mountains out of molehills in MA.

[DRleungjan]

While I respect the subject of the story and his explanations, I regard this as good common sense rather than any sort of huge revelatory insight. IMO there's far too much making mountains out of molehills in MA.

anerlich,

Yes, I agree with you 100% on that. But, like I said before, there is alot I still don't understand so I just wanted some info. To me, it was more curiosity than a revelation. You know how human nature tends to be at times....we miss the big picture trying to overanalize the smaller things. On the other hand, sometimes in the rush to go further we tend to miss the little things that count...so we need a small tap back into reality. :)

[David Peterson]

While the Taan and the Bong are techniques in their own right, the Fook Sau is not - it is a CONCEPT, perhaps the most important one of all, as it embodies the basic principle of Lin Siu Dai Da and is the basis of probably better than 90% of all the techniques we use and the solution to nearly all the situations that we may face. It is NOT meant to be used as a technique in the way that it is practised. In fact, both the Taan and the Fook in the first section of the SNT form are performed to develop a concept, Laat Sau Jik Chung, and NOT practised as techniques per se. Just my two cents worth, ...from the WSLWC perspective.
:)
DMP