Spinning backfist.

[Mr Punch]

I've noticed this in a lot of MMA fights and K1. It seems to come off quite nicely often. I was taught it in karate some years ago, so I know the basics, but why is this useful?

Surely you can generate as much power by just using a backfist, and not bothering with the spin, no? I see from NHB it seems to follow-on nicely from other long circular attacks like a looping overhand or a low roundhouse kick, but are there any other occasiona when the timing might lend itself to one of these attacks?

Anyone practise and use these regularly in sparring or competition?

[Akhilleus]

Surely you can generate as much power by just using a backfist, and not bothering with the spin, no?

No...absolutely not...


Anyone practise and use these regularly in sparring or competition?

Yeah...I gave Melvin Guillard a standing 8 count once with one...in between him picking me up over his head and slamming me...look for him in Pride or KOTC or something soon...

Basically the reason it is so powerful is it is like taking a huge wind up only you don't telegraph it as much and is is quicker...it is usually thrown as part of a combination or in the instances that you already mentioned, but can be thrown all by itself...

Oh and if you have to use it in real life, be careful, I wouldn't hit the guys skull with the back of my hand without gloves and with that much momentum...maybe turn the hand one way of the other so your not hitting with all those little bones in the back of your hand...

[Mr Punch]

No...absolutely not...Fair enough! That told me! :)

Basically the reason it is so powerful is it is like taking a huge wind up only you don't telegraph it as much and is is quicker...How is it not telegraphed? You turn your whole body round, so if you're throwing it on its own surely it's a dead giveaway?
Oh and if you have to use it in real life, be careful, I wouldn't hit the guys skull with the back of my hand without gloves and with that much momentum...maybe turn the hand one way of the other so your not hitting with all those little bones in the back of your hand...Not likely to be using it, given my obvious ignorance about it! :D Buuut, which part of the hand do you recommend, since if you turn the hand to make it into a hammerfist you're gonna be making contact with one small bone instead of many...?

[Mr Punch]

One more quick Q Akhilleus... sorry if its's in your profile, but in what style did you learn spinning backfist?

[Kristoffer]

I train it and use it at times in sparring. But for this to work you have to really set it up as a surprise. The idea is to execute it when the other guy is covering up. (Like opening with a combination of fast punches, the guy covers up behind his gloves, and then when he opens up - BAM! There's the back fist.)

My friend got knocked out by this tech in sparring. He got a concussion.

EDIT: this tech is taught in most traditional Wushu schools around here aswell as the Muay Thai clubs.

[Chief Fox]

I've used it in sparring from time to time. I think it works well in certain situations because it is deceptive and you can also cover ground with the spin. I've used it when either I or my opponent are tryiing to work around behind each other. It usually only takes a half or 3/4 quarter spin and then POW! I should also say that I've never hit anyone with this technique full force. I like it.

[ewallace]

My longfist instructor knocked me out with a spining backfist, although I wasn't paying attention and walked right into it.


I saw a guy use a spinning backfist twice in a KOTC match. First one missed, but for the second, the other guy was getting out of his guard and he got nailed by one. I'd say it's effective...for now. Until people start catching on and looking for it. I think it's just one of those things that will catch you off gaurd in a competition.

[MasterKiller]

I use it all the time, usually after a level change. I'll duck a punch, step into the spin with my back leg, rise back to a standing level and whack. I also usually hit with more of a downward slant rather than horizontal.

[Kristoffer]

I also usually hit with more of a downward slant rather than horizontal.

Me too. A nice combo is (from left foot forward fighting stance) a downward punch (I dunno what you call it, overhand/drop punch) with you're back hand and use the momentum to spin and do the slightly downward spinning punch with you're left.

[Judge Pen]

I've used it to success, but you have to be careful since it's a difficult technique to pull back on once you start to throw it.

[GreenCloudCLF]

The centripital force of the spin helps you get more energy and momentum than you would ever get from a "stationary-style" back fist.

I like to use a stationary back fist to set up into the spin backfist.

If you are not hitting with th back of the hand (because you have no gear on) you can get an effective strike by using the bottom "hammer-fist" portion of your hand as well.

[fa_jing]

Mat - you should have a chunk of flesh on your hand to protect the little bone in a hammerfist. That said, once I incorrectly executed a board break with the hammer fist and fractured that bone (hairline)

I think it is more powerful then a regular backfist because you will never be in the postion and angle to your opponent to fully wind up the backfist, while with the spinning punch both postion and windup are integrated.

That said, there are some other variations of the backfist like downward and looping that I'd like to see more of in competition.

[Akhilleus]

How is it not telegraphed? You turn your whole body round, so if you're throwing it on its own surely it's a dead giveaway?

Like I said, you can generate a ton of power but since you are spinning to get that power you don't need to wind up or c o c k back like you would for a haymaker orother straight punch (if you were going for power rather than technique)...there is no need for any wasted motion...generally, the only motion you do is towards your target you are just taking a longer path there...so what I meant when I said it isn't telegraphed as much as other moves is that when you first move you have started to throw it, it's not like you are pulling your arm back or some other motion before moving towards the other guy...


Not likely to be using it, given my obvious ignorance about it! Buuut, which part of the hand do you recommend, since if you turn the hand to make it into a hammerfist you're gonna be making contact with one small bone instead of many...?

I agree with what fajing and GreenCloud said, however I have a book that covers the backfist and which part of the hand to strike with...I will try to find it tonight then post what it says...


One more quick Q Akhilleus... sorry if its's in your profile, but in what style did you learn spinning backfist?

That's a good question...it's not really one of my styles (tien shan pai) traditional techinques...but we still teach it at one of the schools I work at...however, I first learned it in a san shou class...but honestly I didn't really like the way we were suppose to do it...you ahd to pick up your back leg first then turn...so I felt like this really slowed it down and did telegraph it a bit so I was unable to land many if any spinning backfists...then I saw one of our guys do it in a comp. where he turned his body and then just let his back foot step through naturally at the end...this was much quicker so I started doing it this way and had some success with it...when I was practicing them regularly I would land it most of the time in competition but then I slacked off on it and started missing a lot of them...

[WinterPalm]

The spinning backfist is a great technique. I have some trouble with it but the actual movement works very well in a situation where you may begin to lose your balance, have been pushed, or otherwise unrooted; it seems natural for one to obviously turn back towards the opponent and not expose your back. I find myself always using a backfist or similar biu jee technique when I turn around. This suffices to clear any potential attacks that the opponent may be in the process of conducting, and may become an offensive, distraction, or lead up to something else. It can also be used in the context of faking a turn or appearing like you are cowering and then it just comes swining out!
I like this technique but it is hard to use at my level right now but with practice and continued sparring, I should like to have it as a great technique to rely on!

[SevenStar]

I was taught the spinning back fist in longfist and thai boxing. My first style, however was tang soo do, and we utilized something called a spinning bottomfist - it's pretty much the same, but you hit with the meaty, bottom part of the fist - the same surface a hammerfist uses. This is what I tend to use in sparring, and should lessen the chances of breaking bones by using the back of the fist.

[ewallace]

Hey Seven, just imagine a spinning back fist from Brian connecting at full speed right on the temple. All I can say is ahhh ****!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i loved the spinning backfist. for some reason i really took to it. i crushed the pads and it wasn't one of my best techniques in sparring but i wasn't bad with it.

i did use it in a way i havent seen mentioned yet though. since im short and generally preferred lower stances i struck to the body with them. i never really planned for it or had a stratagy (which is likely why it wasn't one of my best techniques), but i would just throw it out there whenever i found myself stepping in at a 45 anyway. if i remember right, much more often than not it would slip right under their guard and catch them in the breadbasket. and then i was all like you just got owned by a little man newbie.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

a downward punch (I dunno what you call it, overhand/drop punch)

if were thinking of the same punch i got a bunch of guys in class to call it the nazi punch. i can't remember what sifu called it though.

[Yum Cha]

Of the tournament knockouts I've seen, I would say, undoubtedly that the spinning backfist was responsible for the majority. Easy, powerful and with the extra 16oz at the end of the leash, it delivers a lot of energy into the brain bucket.

The caution is, if you are slow, telegraph or the opponent rushes in, it is easy to attack the elbow to a shattering level.

7# mentioned the spinning hammerfist. That would turn the elbow to a less vulnerable angle, I reckon.

[SevenStar]

Hey Seven, just imagine a spinning back fist from Brian connecting at full speed right on the temple. All I can say is ahhh ****!


:eek: :confused: :( <==== the progression of what would happen to me after being hit by him...

[SevenStar]

Of the tournament knockouts I've seen, I would say, undoubtedly that the spinning backfist was responsible for the majority. Easy, powerful and with the extra 16oz at the end of the leash, it delivers a lot of energy into the brain bucket.

The caution is, if you are slow, telegraph or the opponent rushes in, it is easy to attack the elbow to a shattering level.

7# mentioned the spinning hammerfist. That would turn the elbow to a less vulnerable angle, I reckon.


you guys compete with 16's?? Must be nice. I've never been in a competition where we fight with anything greater than 12. I train with 14s or 16s though.

[ewallace]

:eek: :confused: :( <==== the progression of what would happen to me after being hit by him...
That's about what my progression was...except for the frown. I was the dumb ass not paying attention in class and walked right into it. Never has happened again though. One of those tough lessons in life.

[bodhitree]

No...absolutely not...




Oh and if you have to use it in real life, be careful, I wouldn't hit the guys skull with the back of my hand without gloves and with that much momentum...maybe turn the hand one way of the other so your not hitting with all those little bones in the back of your hand...



practice iron palm

[Kristoffer]

if were thinking of the same punch i got a bunch of guys in class to call it the nazi punch. i can't remember what sifu called it though.

hehe yeah everyone gots different names for the same stuff. I think the correct boxing term is over hand but I usually call it a drop punch.

[Becca]

i loved the spinning backfist. for some reason i really took to it. i crushed the pads and it wasn't one of my best techniques in sparring but i wasn't bad with it.

i did use it in a way i havent seen mentioned yet though. since im short and generally preferred lower stances i struck to the body with them. i never really planned for it or had a stratagy (which is likely why it wasn't one of my best techniques), but i would just throw it out there whenever i found myself stepping in at a 45 anyway. if i remember right, much more often than not it would slip right under their guard and catch them in the breadbasket. and then i was all like you just got owned by a little man newbie.

I've used it this way as a target of opporunity strike, but it is much more effective if you go after the head or the sweet spot where the neck and sholder meet. One of my favorite combos is to set up a hook kick and use the back fist as a closer, then turn the hook kick into a sweep, finnishing off with an elbow to the nose. Very effective this way.

[hunglengjon]

I use the spinning back fist in my long fist form.

A straight left then a quick and deceptive spin into dragon. BANG! Right in the temple. Real nasty.

[Yum Cha]

you guys compete with 16's?? Must be nice. I've never been in a competition where we fight with anything greater than 12. I train with 14s or 16s though.

Sorry 7*, generally speaking. Our tournaments used lightweight gloves as well.

I guess the point I was making, is that with any additional weight, the swinging arm at velocity delivers more kenetic energy into the target.

I wonder, what are the white crane players take on the spinning backfist?

[BibitClerus]

for the record id like to say ive seen it effectly being used on:
1 professional mma fight
1 real fight between 2 untrained people

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ha ... how did that real fight end?

[ewallace]

ha ... how did that real fight end?
With Xebs still not gettin any. :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

lol ... that aint even right dude.

i mean im laughing and all, but still.

[IronFist]

I didn't read the thread. Sorry if this has been answered already.

I agree that hitting someone's skull with the back of your hand would hurt, but could you tilt your hand to the side so that it became more of a "spinning-horizontal-hammerfist" and hit them with the bottom part of your hand? That's much more padded.

edit - n/m SevenStar just mentioned that on the top of the 2nd page. If SevenStar endorses it it's ok by me.

[BibitClerus]

ha ... how did that real fight end?

the mma one... the guy who did backfist knocked the other guy out
the street fight... the dude who did the backfist (my neighbour) won, the other kid got tired of being ***** slapped in general terms. i watched this one from my backyard.

[BibitClerus]

With Xebs still not gettin any. :D

yeah dude but you see, back when i saw that fight of my neighbour vs other dude i was a young kid. i was so young and i didnt even know my peepee was small. or i thought all peepees were standardly small. or maybe they really were at that time and age. i had no idea id turn out to be what i am today.
all i remember is disliking having to stop playing to go to the church on sunday... my mom mades us go...
i remember usually me and bro fought when we came back from church, i dunno why, maybe cos it was fun.
i remember what i liked about going to church is sometimes we would go to the bakery store when coming back and my dad would buy some really good goodies food you know.
i remember i wanted to have a dog but the doctors said i couldnt cos i had ahsmatic bronquitis.
i remember a lot of times i thought the other kids were dumb cos they would run around like retards and fall all the time, i would just sit and wonder wtf was wrong with them.
i remember i didnt want or care about losing or gaining weight back then.
i remember i thought some kids were mean, and they really were, but they always got away with it one way or another.
i remember i wasnt one of the mean kids.
i remember i knew a curse or two, and the first time i said, my mom hit me. the other times she didnt hit me no more heheh

[Akhilleus]

Hey guys if anyone noticed the fact that I said:


"I have a book that covers the backfist and which part of the hand to strike with...I will try to find it tonight then post what it says..."

on the first page of this thread I am sorry but I don't seem to be able to find the pages I was referencing...I'm thinking it was either a book someone lent me or in a magazine...or maybe it was in the Tao of JKD which is pretty long so it would be be kind of hard for me to find...however, I think I remember it anyway and what is interesting is it didn't reccomend using the "hammer fist"/bottom of the fist for a backfist, it advised turning the hand the other way and hitting with the top of the fist...personally I'm not sure if this is a good idea 'cause you do have that one bone that sticks out where your thumb attaches to your hand...but I'm pretty sure that that is what it said...dag I wish I could remember where I read that...

I did find some info on backfists and the spinning backfist in particular:

In Jane Hallander and Doc-Fai Wong's "Shaolin Five Animals Kung Fu" the description of the dragon style states that: "Wu long bai wei (dragon swings his tail) is similar to a spinning backfist. The dragon practitioner uses his waist with a whiplike action to obtain power." I'll try to find some photos of this technique in the book when I have a chance to try to provide a better description of how it is done...

From Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: Basic Training - The backfist (NOTE: not a spinning backfist) punch is not the quickest nor is it too strong because you are unable to utilize the total body movement. But it is one blow in which you can fully apply the whipping or snapping motion...It is thrown more like a swing than a forward thrust...you can put more momentum into the delivery...there is more elasticity...in your wrist...bending it from side to side (rather) than up and down...that means that you are able to whip or snap it more vigorously...although some power is lost in this punch, it is compensated for or redeemed when combined with lop sao (grabbing the hand technique)...

anyway I didn't find exactly what I was looking for but I found some very interested books that I had forgotten about...I'm going to read them and then probably start a new thread regarding some of the "new" ideas I've rediscovered...