Headgear

[Thaegen]

In the topic of the may event Victor mentioned something about faceprotection.

http://www.playwell.co.uk/store/acatalog/WebStore_Headguards_31.html

If you scroll down you will see the kendo helmet and the fullmask protection with a full face cover, made of tough Acrylic. I would think that one is the best, because of you can't get through with a finger or whatsoever.

So what do you think?

My nephew and I are in need of helmets, even we only do 16months of Wing tsun, we spar full against each other, I recently started Muay Thai also and it helps to bring more variation in my sparring.
I don't think you need to have years of experience to spar in Wing Tsun. The thing that takes years is to program your muscle memory, lose your tension and improve your feeling.

I am pretty sure, that when you face a situation and you shoot forward and you do "proper chainpunching", you win. Even if you force your way through with power and don't go in bonsau/tansau.

What do you think?

Thanks

[Mr Punch]

I would think that one is the best, because of you can't get through with a finger or whatsoever.Personally I think normal boxing helmets are sufficient, but then I've never actually met anyone who can effectively spear me in the eyes while I'm punching and kicking them repeatedly...! :rolleyes: :eek: :D Well, actually, MMA helmets with some support around the nose. If you think your partner has dangerous fingers, try swimming/skiing goggles... good eye protection, little obscuring of vision, and they don't stick out unrealistically five inches in front of the face.

The dynamics of practising with those kendo type ones are completely different. Getting hit, especially palmed, will automatically get so much more leverage and be much more likely to knock your head back.


I am pretty sure, that when you face a situation and you shoot forward and you do "proper chainpunching", you win. 1) Chainpunching is pretty basic IMO. Later you should be able to work faster, better, stronger combos, based on flowing around the resistance, and blasting that which is weak. Chainpunching is predictable in direction and rhythm. Don't forget the adage that you should always hit with the nearest weapon to the nearest target... that's often the same hand you last hit with.

2) Chainpunching is generally all the same strength... it's too balanced, too uniform. You need different strengths and strategies to different targets and for different combos. It's the old 'one-two' that drops them if it's targeted right. If you can't get the 'one-two', that's when you need the 'one-twothree' or the 'onetwo-three' or the 'one-two-one-two'!!! The 'one-two-three-four' is superfluous to requirements: inefficient and predictable.

3) What makes you think if the first chainpunch doesn't drop him, the next one or the one after will...?! That's why you need to vary angle, strength, speed, penetration, weapon etc. Why restrict yourself to repeating a technique? No tech is infallible. Don't forget the beauty of a fut round the back of his head meeting an elbow for example! WC is a short range art... it has a clinch you know, and it's necessary too...!

All IMO of course.

[Merryprankster]

Helmets suck.

Use headgear with a cheekpiece and a chin protector. Everlast, Ringside, Reyes and Fairtex should all make those.

They are expensive and worth it. They are the perfect trade off of realism and protection. Lots of protection from cuts and bruising, but you can still get your bell rung nicely.

[MasterKiller]

Lots of protection from cuts and bruising, but you can still get your bell rung nicely.
...and maybe a couple of black eyes from a straight shot to the nose, too. :p

[Mr Punch]

...and maybe a couple of black eyes from a straight shot to the nose, too. :pYeah, but if you've got the cheekpieces unless you have a huge conk it shouldn't get flattened too seriously.

[SevenStar]

standard boxing headgear should be fine. I think facemasks are overkill.

[SevenStar]

thaegan, check your PMs

[Ultimatewingchun]

Thaegen:

I can't say enough about the headgear with the metal facecage...especially if you're going to wear somewhat thin, lightweight, semi fingerless gloves; because those gloves will make it very easy for fingers to find eyes, and knuckles to crash into noses, bloody mouths to occur, etc....

if you use regular boxing type headgear when sparring.

But I also think the kendo headgear is too heavy.

Check out the photo of the headgear that Phil Redmond posted on the "May event in Cleveland" thread.

Also...getting back to my particular headgear that I customized with the hockey facecage - look at the second to last photo on the page that you posted; that's what I use - but I changed the facecage to the metal one.

[SevenStar]

the thing about bloody noses and mouths is that they happen - it's part of fighting, both in the ring and out. Also, in case he ever plans on competing (since he recently started thai boxing), he will be accustomed to feeling that. I can see fingers finding their ways into eyes, but I've never actually had it happen.

[Ultimatewingchun]

7*:

You're right about getting used to the contact if you plan on competing - I won't debate that.

As to fingers in the eyes: I was in Cleveland last weekend for the Wing Chun sparring get-together, and within 20 seconds or so of the start of the very first match...we had to stop the action because one of the guys received a finger in the eye.

Fortunately he was alright, and he subsequently switched his boxing headgear to one with a facecage before continuing.

[SevenStar]

How did that event turn out, by the way?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The turnout was a little disappointing (about 15 people) - but otherwise it went well.

[anerlich]

If you scroll down you will see the kendo helmet and the fullmask protection with a full face cover, made of tough Acrylic. I would think that one is the best, because of you can't get through with a finger or whatsoever.

I saw a guy crack one of these in half with a roundhouse kick in a tournament. They're also a b*tch to try and breathe with when you're inside them, and they fog up.

Boxing headgear is best ... as said, if you think you need a face plate, make it a cage, not a visor.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I agree with Andrew, the acrylic visors seem like a good product idea.......until you actually try them.


Also...getting back to my particular headgear that I customized with the hockey facecage - look at the second to last photo on the page that you posted; that's what I use - but I changed the facecage to the metal one.
Victor, this is a cool idea. -I have one of the visor headgears that I bought but never use (because I hate it.) -Maybe it'll end up being my favorite after I modify it. :)

-Lawrence

[Phil Redmond]

I've seen a guy get a finger to the eye with regular headgear and open finger gloves. Try this: http://store.yahoo.com/fightgear//safetycage.html
PR

[curtis]

Hello guys
There are a number of good head gears on the market.
try http://www.fist-inc.com/tg/progear/703a.htm FIST makes some of the best equipment in the world.

another cheeper way is to where a motorcycle helmet with a face shild.
thay can absorb a lot of damage. a hocky head gear,with a cage will protect your face but the helmet dose not offer much protection.

It all depends on the amount of contact you will be receveing. I like Fist beacuse it is verry light and dosent have many blind spots.

Now Ive said my peace, You can take it or leave it.

[Samson]

It really goes to show that Wing Chun guys are soft, motorcycle helmets and face cages? you guys must really be afraid of getting hit you can still get your eye poked out with the cage I have seen and been in many Tounaments with other styles, that only wear open face headgear, If you guys ever get with the times you will see that the only ones using face cages is on Fear Factor.
No wonder Wing Chun is the laughing stock of the Martial art world Lolololololololol

[Thaegen]

You are a pathetic idiot samson.
I think you are a bit frustrated eh, aren't you.

[whitefox]

It really goes to show that Wing Chun guys are soft, motorcycle helmets and face cages? you guys must really be afraid of getting hit you can still get your eye poked out with the cage I have seen and been in many Tounaments with other styles, that only wear open face headgear, If you guys ever get with the times you will see that the only ones using face cages is on Fear Factor.
No wonder Wing Chun is the laughing stock of the Martial art world Lolololololololol


Who peed in your wheaties???????? :confused: Sounds like someone has an axe to grind?? :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

It really goes to show that Wing Chun guys are soft, motorcycle helmets and face cages? you guys must really be afraid of getting hit you can still get your eye poked out with the cage I have seen and been in many Tounaments with other styles, that only wear open face headgear, If you guys ever get with the times you will see that the only ones using face cages is on Fear Factor.
No wonder Wing Chun is the laughing stock of the Martial art world Lolololololololol
The link to the headgear I posted was from a site that sells "Boxing" gear. So it's obvious that boxers use the cage headgear as well. I think we've all got the hint that you don't like WC yet you keep posting here. What is your point?
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I'm training people to use elbows, palms, side palms, knees, etc., to the face. I think a cage or visor is the safe way to go especially for people who have never fought full contact. Forget about being macho it's just common sense.
Phil

[Samson]

I'm training people to use elbows, palms, side palms, knees, etc., to the face. I think a cage or visor is the safe way to go espeically for people who have never fought full contact. Forget about being macho it's just common sense.
Phil
You must be training all women, Try full body armor or teach them how not to get hit often.

[Thaegen]

Noone can take an elbow to the face without getting hurt. That's why you need faceprotection! + In WT you don't train with boxing gloves, but with small gloves. Which almost feels like a bare fist.

So if you want to fight full contact you need face protection, otherwise you will not train for months.

Samson I think you are somekind of kid who plays way to much videogames;)

[curtis]

Samson
training gear is training gear. what would you prefer? the pretend to hit you, Tag your it!

Or better yet, See that move would have killed you, I don't understand? if didn't work???

stop dreaming, There is a difference between real life and training, And I see nothing wrong with being safe, There's nothing Macho about being hurt,or hurting someone while training.
the goal is to train safely but to make things as Real as possible.Mistakes happen, why not protect your self, Its far better than being permantly disabled or to be sued because you didn't use your head!

[SevenStar]

Noone can take an elbow to the face without getting hurt. That's why you need faceprotection! + In WT you don't train with boxing gloves, but with small gloves. Which almost feels like a bare fist.

So if you want to fight full contact you need face protection, otherwise you will not train for months.

Samson I think you are somekind of kid who plays way to much videogames;)


FWIW, when we train for MMA fights, we wear small gloves and no face protection, other than a mouth guard. But, Samson is trolling.... Let's not feed him.

[Phil Redmond]

I just watched some "UFC" fighters on Spike TV training full contact while using Acrylic full face headgear. Like Andrew I prefer a cage. I've seen the Acrylic headgear get smashed by kicks and elbows. I really doubt if UFC trainers/fighters are "soft" or "out of date" ;)
PR

[lawrenceofidaho]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.


Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.


Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.
This might not be too hard to validate, if I could only get my hands on one of those power-measuring things that Andrew N. was talking about on another [front kick?] thread.......

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

I've seen the Acrylic heargear get smashed by kicks and elbows.
The fogging-up thing really sucks too....... :mad:

Either go with a cage, or "Mexican style" boxing headgear if you want more protection. Mexican style headgear means the cheek protectors come in further, so if you take a straight shot to the face, your nose will not get (entirely) flattened. Check out the difference between regular heagear and "Mexican style", -both sold at AWMA (also note the chin padding which will help protect against uppercuts and lifting punches):

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.


Not sure that's such a great argument for boxing!
Most sane people would prefer not to injure their hands frequently.

[Ernie]

Tma suck because they only have demo power , meaning they need to assume a stance or posture , set the distance and hit a stationary target . this is dead power [show power ]
boxers or any other actual fighting art has to hit a target in motion while they are also in motion , this is functional power [ real world ]

when your hitting some thing in motion the chances of an off angle , misjudged distance , and so on can cause you to injure your wrist/hand so you need protection

Tma artist usually hit fixed objects so they have the luxury talking all the imaginary $hit they want , or there sparring with each other two dead guys trying to set the same dead distance to do the same dead technique , this also is a false sense of power

any one that has really trained to hit and be hit will not argue the need for some training protection , those that live in imaginary fantasy fu worlds have all kinds of Sifu says programmed responses

;)

[Edmund]

I'm all for protective gear.

I just don't think that breaking your hands frequently is a good selling point for boxing.

As it is some TMA do things pretty **** hard without gear and get injuries as well. Most of the traditional karate styles have a wonderful time kicking and punching the hell out of each other and going home injured. A bit of protective gear wouldn't go astray.

[lawrenceofidaho]

while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?
Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. -A more accurate description would be; "injure them more frequently than TMA people."

If you're wrapped properly, wear quality gloves for training, have good coaching, and are following a sound nutritional program (with adequete amounts of minerals in your diet), your chances for hand injury as a boxer will be minimal.

Boxing punches are also sound techniques when employed as open handed palm strikes. A boxer will still carry the powerful mechanics behind his attacks if he chooses to use open hands for street self defense. (Although he loses about 2" of range, and must consciously adjust for this.)

I'm not trying to "sell" boxing here, just point out that boxers are doing some things right to be able to generate such powerful strikes, and that the majority of TMA people could learn something by studying the ways in which a boxer moves and executes techniques.

-Lawrence

[WingChunTao]

[QUOTE=lawrenceofidaho]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

TMA--Us TMA's would like to hear your premises that led you to believe such a discovery. A statement like that needs clarification/evidence to back it up.

[Edmund]

I'm not trying to "sell" boxing here, just point out that boxers are doing some things right to be able to generate such powerful strikes, and that the majority of TMA people could learn something by studying the ways in which a boxer moves and executes techniques.


True. A point for a different thread perhaps.

As for headgear, I favour the open faced boxing style over face cages. The face cage products I've seen first hand haven't been particularly well implemented. They're literally a pain in the neck. Having experimented with taking punches using one particular face cage, I would have rather gotten my nose busted.

[lawrenceofidaho]

[QUOTE=lawrenceofidaho]

Q: Why are many TMA practicioners able punch trees (and other hard, solid objects) and not hurt their hands, while boxers (who wrap & glove their hands) still seem to injure them rather frequently?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

Q: Why do many TMA guys spar without headgear, while boxers seem to always wear headgear when they spar?

A: Most TMA practicioners cannot hit nearly as hard as boxers.

TMA--Us TMA's would like to hear your premises that led you to believe such a discovery. A statement like that needs clarification/evidence to back it up.
Wing Chun Tao,

I train in Wing Chun (TMA) and love it too. -I'm just making a general comment about schools that do not use protective gear (hence the use of the qualifier; most, in my statements above that you refer to).

In post #28 of this thread, I also pointed out that I would like to be able to provide some evidence of this, -if only I had access to one of those devices that Andrew Nerlich had at his school down under;

This might not be too hard to validate, if I could only get my hands on one of those power-measuring things that Andrew N. was talking about on another [front kick?] thread.......

As I do not have access to one of those gadgets, I only can only offer my opinion based on my experiences with folks from both backgrounds...... -Compare two individuals, one from an average TMA school, and one from an average boxing club, both of relatively equal size, and experience levels (i.e. -training time under their belt), and nine times out of ten, the boxer will be the harder puncher (sometimes by a significant margin). -I am quite certain that those on the forum who have trained for any length of time with boxers (or even some good kickboxers), will agree that this is generally true.

-Why?? -Not because boxing is a "superior art", but because boxers train from day one with such an emphasis on mechanics and getting their bodyweight behind every punch, and because they need power when they are sparring to keep an aggressive opponent from steamrolling over them (unlike TMA "point sparring" games where a potentially weak strike, and a potentially powerful strike are considered equally significant according to the rules).

A Wing Chun person who trains with good mechanics and contact sparring in their regimin will be a force to be reckoned with. -But when I say mechanics, I mean to say; sound, scientifically validated mechanics as opposed to simply throwing around a couple of vague, esoteric foreign terms and claiming that this is where your "power" comes from. (It's the schools like that, who don't seem to need headgear when they spar, -probably since so few of them are capable of throwing a damaging punch.)

-Lawrence

[KPM]

True. A point for a different thread perhaps.

As for headgear, I favour the open faced boxing style over face cages. The face cage products I've seen first hand haven't been particularly well implemented. They're literally a pain in the neck. Having experimented with taking punches using one particular face cage, I would have rather gotten my nose busted.

We use headgear with the acrylic face cages and they work just fine for us. They do fog a little, but mostly at the lower half. No neck pain that I've noticed. :) We went for the face cages over the open face headgear because we also do some weapons sparring.

Keith

[KPM]

[
A Wing Chun person who trains with good mechanics and contact sparring in their regimin will be a force to be reckoned with. -But when I say mechanics, I mean to say; sound, scientifically validated mechanics as opposed to simply throwing around a couple of vague, esoteric foreign terms and claiming that this is where your "power" comes from. (It's the schools like that, who don't seem to need headgear when they spar, -probably since so few of them are capable of throwing a damaging punch.)

-Lawrence

--Very true...at least from my experience! And let me say that I've been taking another look at Alan Orr's series of videos..."Body Structure Sparring"....that I got awhile back and am more impressed each time that I watch them. He shows very good biomechanics using the kua and hitting hard with WCK structure.

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

For those of you who've never seen them...on page 20 of the original VIDEO FOOTAGE thread (about 8 months ago)...there's a post by Phil Redmond entitled: VICTOR'S CONTRIBUTION...there are some vids there of some sparring between myself and one of my students (Myron Young) wherein we use a metal face cage attached to our helmets...with very thin semi-fingerless gloves...very safe...full power and close to full power shots to the head and face can be thrown with only shock waves being felt...

the problem is that they limit the use of palm strikes (in fact on one of the vids you can see me shaking out my left hand and fingers after "I forgot" and landed a palm strike flush on the metal bars)...and the headgear with this type of face cage doesn't give a completely true sense of distance because when you land a punch on the face cage you're hand is probably still close to about 3 inches away form your opponent's face...(unless of course you had plenty of follow through and snapped his head back) :D ...

and they do take away some more realism because, even though those shock waves DO hurt..you always know in the back of your mind that you won't ever suffer a jolt right on your nose, mouth, eyes, etc....

ALL THIS SAID...

I still believe that this is excellent headgear because you CAN throw full power head and face shots (which DOES bring some sense of realism to your sparring) - and as Lawrence said - this type of realism is invaluable training as it requires power development on your strikes against an opponent who's coming in to blast you for real...which rarely happens when you spar without equipment and without the understanding that full power shots to the head and face are in play.

As to the Mexican style headgear - we sometimes use those with slightly bigger gloves when we spar so that palm strikes and the like can be used from up close and personal (such as in the clinch - where a protruding metal face cage does interfere with realism even more)...but we still try to keep some safety by agreeing in advance that the power should never reach a full 100% (perhaps about 70-80%)...since your nose can be hit and flattened a bit - and your eyes are a bit more exposed.

[lawrenceofidaho]

We use headgear with the acrylic face cages and they work just fine for us. They do fog a little, but mostly at the lower half. No neck pain that I've noticed. :) We went for the face cages over the open face headgear because we also do some weapons sparring.

Keith
To be clear, I use metal cage "street hockey" headgear when weapons sparring, and mexican style boxing headgear when empty hand sparring. And that is what I'd also recommend to others.

Depends on the heaviness of the weapons being employed in sparring, but if you're only use sparring gear made for hand-to-hand combat (or simple fencing masks), you may be risking concussion and brain injury. -Although for some this is an acceptable risk as they wish to approach the cutting edge of training realism. (e.g. - Dog Brothers)

Note: IMO, if you are not fighting at a Dog Brother's level of realism when using weapons, I do not think you have much credibility when criticizing their assertions about what combat is like at that level. (When a Dog Brother talks about stick fighting and what they've learned, I damm well listen. -I do not think I have ever been steered wrong by their combat-proven advice.)

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

In post #28 of this thread, I also pointed out that I would like to be able to provide some evidence of this, -if only I had access to one of those devices that Andrew Nerlich had at his school down under;

As an aside, I've seen a Discovery Channel documentary where some TMA karate guys used a similar device to measure their punches and kicks vs. a boxer's. It was a sheet of sensors that could be stuck to any surface - bags, wooden boards, etc.

Their punches were actually a little bit more than a boxer. However they had
1) no gloves on.
2) a stationary target.
3) all the time in the world to set themselves.

So the experiment was not particularly enlightening.

[Phil Redmond]

For those of you who've never seen them...on page 20 of the original VIDEO FOOTAGE thread (about 8 months ago)...there's a post by Phil Redmond entitled: VICTOR'S CONTRIBUTION...there are some vids there of some sparring between myself and one of my students (Myron Young) . . . .


Victor, you'll have to re-send me those videos. I was using a student's ftp addy from his job for those vids. He no longer works for the company. I now have my own ftp addy ;)
Phil

[lawrenceofidaho]

Their punches were actually a little bit more than a boxer. However they had
1) no gloves on.
2) a stationary target.
3) all the time in the world to set themselves.

So the experiment was not particularly enlightening.
It still surprises me they did as well as they did, -even if it was against a dead target....... :eek:

Were the guys of equal size and experience levels (training time)?

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

It still surprises me they did as well as they did, -even if it was against a dead target....... :eek:

Were the guys of equal size and experience levels (training time)?

-Lawrence

Not sure of the exact size or experience.

They were not just some schlub karateka. They were more than just hobbyists and competed in karate forms/sparring events and did stuff in movie/tv stuntwork.

They basically were full time sportsmen and were athletically very capable. They do the type of karate comps that ESPN sometimes shows: Screaming like you just got castrated, lots of flashy moves, smashing through a couple of bricks and then doing a standing full somersault to finish with a bow. They showed some continous sparring comps with a lot of protective gear and it wasn't anything particularly great. Like TKD with punches to the face allowed possibly.

For the experiment, they were basically doing the same mechanics as a boxing punch but with their bare fists so it really didn't mean a thing.

[anerlich]

Samson needs no headgear.

Headgear protects the brain, and Samson, well, when you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose.

[viper]

iv got boxing style headgear and i find they are great for wing chun sparring if u go full out for a while its good for view and stuff lik that when it comes to gettin a finger in the eye it happens be on ur guard i think wear what headgear u feel comfortable in thats all getting hit is gettin hit if uv got good fight tatics and skils an condition ul be fine with any headgear as long as ur aware when i fight full out i generally just have a mouth guard its very realistic to get hit by a 6.5ft guy weighing 100 kgs u get scares to but thats part of fighting i think padding is great full out with all safety so i supose make ur own choice i can just giv my point of view thats all train train train.

[iceDragon]

most of my friends and kung-fu brothers use the proforce helmets with the face cage. they hold up to shoes and concrete pretty well.

this site has a few different helmets in use (and is a project of mine)

punch of death (http://www.punchofdeath.com)