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golden dragon
08-22-2000, 10:55 PM
question: need advice from fellow students. whenever i go to class my sifu tells me to get down on the floor to work on grappling. there's just one problem: i study wing chun.

vingtsunstudent
08-22-2000, 11:13 PM
sorry you didn't say whether or not you are a begginer to vt or not? if u are & wing chun is your prefference i would recommend finding a new school.hell find 1 anyway if he's telling u do that.

golden dragon
08-22-2000, 11:28 PM
well i would leave the school but im 16 years old and can't afford to go to another school (my sifu doesn't charge me.)

Mojo
08-23-2000, 01:34 AM
It sounds like your sifu is a butt muncher. Has he ever come on to you ?

Begging Mantis
08-23-2000, 07:59 AM
So get down on the floor, most fights end there anyways. I want to study wing chun but I'm also planning to study brazillan jujutsu, so I'll be equally capable in almost any situation.

benny
08-23-2000, 09:06 AM
the question is, is he using ving tsun on the ground or bjj.

Mojo
08-23-2000, 07:57 PM
Look up the definition of Ephebophile.

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/eek2.gif

humblewarrior
08-23-2000, 11:18 PM
So, you're only 16 years old? Boy, no wonder you are so ignorant about the safety of body conditioning methods!

golden dragon
08-23-2000, 11:47 PM
hw,

I thought you were leaving to study arts and crafts?

humblewarrior
08-23-2000, 11:51 PM
hey buddy, i fought full contact before in which I sustained many injuries. So so much for this Bs that i am so afraid of getting hurt.

humblewarrior
08-23-2000, 11:53 PM
Golden Dragon, read my final thread in the kung fu forum. It is meant especially for you.

humblewarrior
08-23-2000, 11:54 PM
The only arts I intend to study are martial.

golden dragon
08-24-2000, 10:58 PM
hmmm I think I might have a problem here.

Just one more question, I know most KF trains in t-shirts type of uniform. But my sifu insists on thai boxer shorts and topless( we dont have any other female in the class).
I always thought we dress as such because this is how full contact fighters dress.
After hearing from some of you, I am a little bit worry.

Benny. no there is no choke holds and stuff just basiclly holding me while she is on top of me.

vingtsunstudent
08-24-2000, 11:40 PM
so you're just a wanker, is that it?

benny
08-25-2000, 02:54 PM
you just said 'SHE', now let me get this straight you have a women teaching you for free and she is getting you on the ground with only pants on.
sounds good to me i wouldnt leave!!
see ya

Vyvial
10-15-2003, 02:27 PM
just thought I would bring back an oldy but a goody:)

Whiplash
10-15-2003, 09:14 PM
I know its old and all but I just have to ask ...


Is she hot? ;)

vingtsunstudent
10-15-2003, 11:28 PM
i just want to know how somebody else has my sig.

i thought the software wouldn't allow that.

change your name, as there can only be one rude vingtsunstudent and that is me.

vts

Ultimatewingchun
10-16-2003, 08:25 AM
Golden Touch:

Didn't read anything on this thread except your original post - so I don't know what has transpired. But as for your apparent
surprise and and dismay about your wing chun sifu teaching grappling - if he's ADDING grappling to the wing chun program - AS OPPOSED TO NOT TEACHING WING CHUN - then I agree with his approach to martial arts 100%.

Real fighting (as opposed to chi sao, san sao, tournament fighting, sparring with your friends and classmates, etc.) is not JUST about striking, not just about kicking, not just about grappling - it's about ALL of these things....

being able to tansition at a moment's notice between striking, kicking, grabbing, taking someone down, putting them into a crippling submission, choke, etc......THIS IS REAL FIGHTING.

And anyone who tries to tell you differently is FULL OF SH*T !!!

So once again, AS LONG AS YOUR INSTRUCTOR IS TEACHING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF QUALITY WING CHUN... then be grateful that he's also teaching you grappling as well.

Good Luck !

BeWater
10-17-2003, 01:02 PM
Ultimatewingchun,

Would you agree that if a sifu is teaching Wing Chun combined with grappling, that he is teaching "real fighting" and no longer teaching "real Wing Chun"?

Just curious. :)

Ultimatewingchun
10-20-2003, 06:14 AM
BeWater:

No, I wouldn't say that he's no longer teaching "real wing chun"... I would say that he's simply added grappling to his wing chun program. Period.

And in so doing he has now taken his teaching curriculum one step closer to reality. A big step, in fact!

Don't you agree?

BeWater
10-21-2003, 10:01 AM
Ultimatewingchun,

I'm don't agree with your statement. For me the sticking point is whether or not adding to (or subtracting from) WC will bring you "one step closer to reality".

I'll concede that grappling training will give you the tools to handle certain situations, but it also reduces the purity of the Wing Chun. I simply don't think that it is necessary to add outside techniques/arts to a WC curriculum. In fact, I think it is counter-productive.

I think an underlying issue is how quickly one can develop a competent fighter. I'm sure grappling training will assist a student in handling grappling situations in a relatively short amount of time. But I'm also sure that an advanced WC practitioner with no grappling training will also be able to handle those situations even more effectively.

I guess the bottom line for me is that if you want to be a street fighter or even just learn effective self defense in a relatively short period of time, then there may be better arts than WC out there, like Western Boxing. (This isn't to say that WC can't be effective in a short amount of time). But in the long(er) term, I think pure WC training will be more effective than 99%+ of all others arts (including mixed arts).

I suppose reality is relative. :)

Mckind13
10-21-2003, 02:11 PM
Be Water Wrote” I’ll concede that grappling training will give you the tools to handle certain situations, but it also reduces the purity of the Wing Chun. I simply don't think that it is necessary to add outside techniques/arts to a WC curriculum. In fact, I think it is counter-productive."

The issue should be awareness not adding or subtracting. Does adding anything increase the awareness and thus the efficiency of the Wing Chun model.

I train wrestling; I teach some of the points of it for awareness sake. In the end everything I do is still WCK!

PaulH
10-21-2003, 02:42 PM
I had the privileges of studying WC with Two French WC coaches while they were in the USA studying BJJ with the Machado brothers for two years plus. When they touched hands with other people, the feeling is often like being ran over by a heavy truck. Rarely did I ever see them rocked or swayed under strong pressure. They are extremely stable like the mountain and fast like a ferrari. The BJJ did not hurt their WC but actually improve further their WC stability, flow as well as body sensitivity to another higher level. It is simply unproven that studying BJJ will dilute your WC skills.

BeWater
10-21-2003, 06:48 PM
[Mckind13] The issue should be awareness not adding or subtracting. Does adding anything increase the awareness and thus the efficiency of the Wing Chun model.

I know what you're saying. I just believe that if you look/work hard enough you can find those answers within Wing Chun.

[PaulH]It is simply unproven that studying BJJ will dilute your WC skills.

I completely agree. My point is not that studying other arts will dilute one's WC skills. Rather, that teaching other arts simultaneously dilutes Wing Chun itself.

PaulH
10-22-2003, 09:23 AM
BW, I'm not sure that I follow you. Teaching other arts beside WC does not dilute WC purity if you keep them as separate systems. My French coaches teach WC for stand up fighting and BJJ for ground combat. They do not like mixing the thinking and logics of these very different fighting systems. Be water when you can run and stand fighting freely, but be earth my friend when you lay down with lions and have no other choices!

Regards,

PH

BeWater
10-22-2003, 12:05 PM
PaulH: Teaching other arts beside WC does not dilute WC purity if you keep them as separate systems.

I agree, the operative word in my statement was "simultaneously":

"Teaching other arts simultaneously dilutes Wing Chun itself."

I guess my disagreement is with the inclusion of grappling in a WC curriculum. I have no problem if they are kept completely separate.

PaulH: Be water when you can run and stand fighting freely, but be earth my friend when you lay down with lions and have no other choices!

:)

Why lay down like earth, when I can stand like wood?

I know, I know: "no other choices" ;)

Ultimatewingchun
10-26-2003, 02:44 PM
Someone wrote:
"I guess my disagreement is with the inclusion oF grappling in a WC curriculum. I have no problem if they are kept completely separate."

But I must tell that neither myself or my students have any problem with the two arts being taught together...IF DONE WISELY...

I teach 3 days a week in the following manner:

Mondays...................... TWC forms, chi sao, wooden dummy

Wednesdays................some time spent on foms and chi sao (perhaps a total of 20-25 minutes in total)...some punching, kicking and footwork drills...some combat technique applications...

followed on 4 Wednesdays in a row of one hour of pure grappling and/or self defense techniques (ie. - how to escape a headlock, rear bearhug, etc.)... on the fifth Wednesday that hour is spent defending (unarmed) vs. a weapon attack (ie. - a backhand slash with a knife, etc.) and the 6th Wednesday that hour is divided between the Butterfly Swords and the Dragon Pole (one-half hour each...just meant obviously to be more of an introduction to the basics of those weapons than anything else). Then it's back to 4 weeks in a row of grappling (Catch-as-catch-can wrestling).

Saturdays....................some forms, footwoork, chi sao, punching, kicking, combat applications...followed by sparring...first lightly without protective gear and then one solid hour of hard sparring with full protective gear (but using very thin, UFC type gloves)...during which time takedowns (if appropriate to the situation) and some grappling is encouraged...AS A MEANS OF INTEGRATING BOTH SYSTEMS OF FIGHTING...


It works out just fine. No one seems to be confused or shortchanged in their Wing Chun training...as far as I can see, because much time is spent STARTING AND STOPPING the sparring/grappling - so things can be further explained, clarfifed, and drilled, ie. - when and how a transition from wing chun striking, parrying, blocking, etc. to a grab and takedown, for example...or when it is appropriate to stop trying to strike and begin a sprawl vs. an attempted takedown, by way of another example.

If done right it's all to the good !!!

Void Boxing
10-30-2003, 03:42 PM
You'd be an idiot not to invest time in learning grappling. It is part of fighting, to be weak in one area means you can be defeated easily there - to have knowledge of ALL RANGES - your chances of success in a fight will be higher. Learn the grappling mate.

foolinthedeck
11-02-2003, 11:35 AM
does anyone mix wing chun with argentinian tango in order to learn footwork?

how do you grapple something which is beyond the means of grappling such as water? grappling is not everything. nor is wing chun. nor is dancing.

the key is to not be what your opponent wants you to be. if you're not there i cant bridge and hit you.