wing chun: snake and crane?

[Raatra]

hi all. how are you today? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i have heard that wing chun is a refined blend of the snake and crane systems. i am very familiar with snake and crane and can definetly see the influence. is this true? does anyone have any information on this or is it just a coincidence?

now i know that many martial arts have similar origins and all share some similarites. i am interested in any specific traces of snake and crane in wing chun.

[vingtsunstudent]

raatra
yes i to have heard this & can safley say no-one is absolutly sure of wing chuns past,it's just another one of the many origins that we all here.(sad but true)
i would also agree with you in saying some technics share a similar appearance but can be quite different in aplication.

[benny]

it seems as though they got all the techniques that went with the vingtsun princibles or adapted them as you can see vt movements in a lot of different styles that have been changed. take the bong sao, i like to call it the "jesus block" as it is a natural reaction just with certain princibles added, many people do a type of bongsao to block even in boxing (george formon being a prime example,its not as refined as ours but without being close its pretty close.and in biu jee you even learn techniques that go against the vt princibles but are specific to certain times,ie when you make a mistake or if you have a problem ie didnt see them till to late, one arm broken or being pinned against the wall or floor.
see ya

[Jeff]

Yeah, it seems as if fuk sau comes from the praying mantis style,and fak sau comes from the crane style, and biu sau comes from the snake styles.

Peace

[HuangKaiVun]

Some of the non-Yip Man styles have plenty of other animal influences (e.g. tiger, leopard).

[tiger_1]

my respons: tiger-snake-eagle,that is tree must important and serios in w.c.but that is only my opinion . friendly tiger_1undefined

/

[Ten Tigers]

What I was taught historicaly during my WC training is that wing chun was developed because the animal forms not only took too long to become combat proficient, but were not geared towards the human form. While the various animal forms have their different advantages, one must realize that we are humans. Not tigers, not cranes, not dragons. Humans. Therefore the forms were streamlined. More friendly to the human form. The efficient and the useful were adopted, the more difficult, obscure tecniques were eliminated. :cool:

I love a good fight...

[Daredevil]

I've always wondered about Wing Chun myself, being a practicioner of Tai Shin Mun, a Monkey style. I see a few key similarities, though also a lot of differences.

Chain punching (we don't see that in many other kungfu styles, or am I wrong here?), triangular footwork, sticky hands (though ours is much less refined than Wing Chun's), centerline theory.

Tai Shin Mun is a bit wider (that is not to say complete, I'm not looking to start a flame war), containing several sub-systems geared for individual body and personality types, but also less specialized.

Anyhow, I've often wondered at the similarities. I know the centerline theory is in common with a lot of styles, but triangular footwork seems less common and especially chain punching ???

I've been intrigued enough, though, and I'm going to check our local Wing Tsun school out if it's as good as it seems. I'm hoping to add some more mastery of the centerline to my arsenal.

[WongFeHung]

(the original TenTigers) If you look at the snake and crane techniques of Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga),particularly the opening of the Tiger/Crane form and Five animal set, you will definately see pretty much all the techniques found in Wing Chun. The line about it being not based on animal techniques, or that it was developed as a 'super system' is just promo stuff. Wing Chun,Fukien White Crane came directly from Siu-Lum.I find it particularly interesting, that Fong Chinyiang, a woman who passed on Fukien White Crane, came from Wing Chun county in Fukien province.Could she be the Fong Wing Chun that is mentioned in Hung Ga's history as well? hmmmm?-oh yeah, and Ten Tigers is not me!

[ccwayne]

Snake Crane Wing Chun is a very low profile tributary of Wing Chun in the past 150 years because of the governing rules(Snake Crane Wing Chun Mun 蛇鶴詠春門). It becomes a Law's family oriented since the grandfather of Master Law Chiu Wing, GM Law Tiu Wen in Qing dynasty, learned the skills from 'Sun Kam', RedBoat. In this lineage, they mainly uphold and prolong the skills in his family instead of promoting. Now, Master Law Chiu Wing is over 80 years old and Qing dynasty was over in the early of last century. He has only three daughters without intention to succeed, and put it open to public four years ago.

All traditional forms of Snake Crane Wing Chun(SCWC) retaining a lot of imitations of Snake and Crane movement. Snake movement is on softness(sticking hand), while Crane movement is on hardness(power bridge)（蛇纏鶴頂）. 'Softness', 'Following', 'Imperturbability' and 'Convergence' are the four keys to SCWC. All the forms in SCWC are hardware（套路） and need software（心法） to drive.

An interview had been made in March last year on the 'Territory-wide Survey of Intagible Culture Heritage in Hong Kong' conducted by the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

Below, there are six links to the slideshare.net relating to this lineage and some had been posted in Chinese in the 'New Martial Hero Magazine', Hong Kong before, now re-edited.


1) The evolution of Wing Chun in last sixty years (in Hong Kong)

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/the-evolution-of-wing-chun-in-last-sixty-years-in-hong-kong


2) History - Snake Crane Wing Chun Mun

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/history-snake-crane-wing-chun-mun


3) Snake Crane Wing Chun : Three forms, Twin knives and One pole

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/snake-crane-wing-chun-three-forms-twin-knives-and-one-pole


4) The formation of Snake Crane Wing Chun Martial Arts Association 2009-01-08

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/the-formation-of-snake-crane-wing-chun-martial-arts-association-20090108


5) Conservation snake crane wing chun mun 20080707-1

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/conservation-snake-crane-wing-chun-mun-200807071


6) Territory-wide Survey of Intangible Culture Heritage in Hong Kong : Snake Crane Wing Chun ( 蛇鶴詠春 )

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/territorywide-survey-of-intangible-culture-heritage-in-hong-kong


Finally, please also take a moment to read and visit the following links. Then you will find more information about 'Snake Crane Wing Chun'( 蛇鶴詠春 )

A). Snake Crane Wing Chun facebook's wall: (with videos on SiuLimTau, ChumKiu and WoodenDummy now. More will be added in the future.)


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002994052797


B). Snake Crane Wing Chun's page :

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Snake-Crane-Wing-Chun-Yung-Kwok-Wing-Athletic-Association%E8%9B%87%E9%B6%B4%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5%E7 %BF%81%E5%9C%8B%E6%A6%AE%E9%AB%94%E8%82%B2%E6%9C%8 3/165747543494748



C). Website of Snake Crane Wing Chun Yung Kwok Wing Athletic Association :

http://www.scwc.com.hk/SCWC



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廣州詠春(GuangZhou Wing Chun) in Wikipedia
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The following link is the GuangZhou Wing Chun ( 廣州詠春 ) in Wikipedia,

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%BB%A3%E5%B7%9E%E8%A9%A0%E6%98%A5%E6%8B%B3

Clicking the link will display the following :
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廣州詠春拳

廣州詠春拳亦稱蛇鶴詠春拳、阮奇山詠春拳，是詠春拳的一分支。
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Compare the lineage of GuangZhou Wing Chun with the lineage of Snake Crane Wing Chun
=== ===========================================
GuangZhou Wing Chun :

SunKam -- FungSiuChing -- YuenKayShan -- SungNung(GoungZhouWC/ SnakeCraneWC/ YuenKaySanWC)
申錦 -- 馮少青 -- 阮奇山 -- 岑能（ 廣州詠春 / 蛇鶴詠春 / 阮奇山詠春 ）

(FungSiuChing : SunKam early year disciple)

Snake Crane Wing Chun :

ChiSin -- SunKam -- LawTiuWen -- LawTingChau -- LawChiuWing(Snake Crane Wing Chun)
至善 -- 申錦 -- 羅悌雲 -- 羅定周 -- 羅昭榮 （蛇鶴詠春）

(LawTiuWen : SunKam late year disciple)

=== ===========================================
From the Wikipedia, GuangZhou Wing Chun also named Snake Crane Wing Chun or Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.

Compared with the Snake Crane Wing Chun, both of them are still using the old naming terms on their techniques. Also, the three forms of them are very similar and they use the same name on their twin knieves "YeeGeKimYeungDuMingDao（二字拑羊奪命刀）".

Compared with other lineages not from Sun Kam, there are very big differences on the forms, on the technique and techniques names, on the weapon forms and weapon names, on the stances and etc.

If the information on the '廣州詠春拳'(GuangZhou Wing Chun) in Wikipedia is valid, it is obvious that the two inter-related lineages traced back to Sun Kam are really called 'Snake Crane Wing Chun' in Qing dynasty.


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Old pictures (3rd generation of Snake Crane Wing Chun)
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The two old pictures below of young aged 'Law Chiu Wing' and of his disciples 'Chan Wing Chan, now aged 71 and Cheung Chi To' sparring. The picture on the wall is Grandmaster 'Law Tiu Wen', he got the skills from RedBoat 'Sun Kam', and shows that he is the third generation of Snake Crane Wing Chun ( 蛇鶴詠春三傳 ).