Seven Star's Big Broadsword Form

[taichi4eva]

I found some pictures of a Big Broadsword Form practiced in the Seven Star Praying Mantis lineage. I wanted to ask if this form looked legitimate or not.

http://www.martialartmantis.com/thebigbroadsword.html

It is interesting to note that on his website, there are pictures of him "practicing with the Japanese sword." From the pictures, the form seems very Japanese, probably contrived by the Sifu himself.

Any opinions? Does anybody here practice with such a weapon?

[Frogman]

Looks like Master Chow likes to travel. :)

[MightyB]

I've learned a two handed broadsword form in 7 star. It doesn't look anything like those pictures.

From what I heard, It is a fairly new form created around WW2. Rumor has it that it was created as a means for people to defend themselves from the samurai swords that the Japanese soldiers liked to use.

[Chief Fox]

I've learned a two handed broadsword form in 7 star. It doesn't look anything like those pictures.

From what I heard, It is a fairly new form created around WW2. Rumor has it that it was created as a means for people to defend themselves from the samurai swords that the Japanese soldiers liked to use.

It does look like a katana form. It looks like Master Chow studied in Japan and also practices the Japanese sword. Maybe he's taken some 7 star elements and created his own katana form.

[MantisifuFW]

TC4E,

It does indeed look like a Katana form. However I hasten to add that Master Chow is in good company indeed by including the techniques if not the weapon in his practice.

Ming Dynasty General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587) is famous for capturing a couple of thousand Japanese swordsmen, (pirates) and interviewing them for their sword techniques, (tourture). The result was the Miao Dao. My conversations with Chinese sword historians finds that they regard the Miao Dao as a Chinese/Japanese weapon and the Zha Ma Dao as more of a pure Chinese weapon in terms of a Chinese two-handed sword. The history of the Sern Sao Do (aka Da Dao) is linked by many to the Zha Ma Dao though I have heard arguements that those techniques borrowed from Japanese swordsmanship also.

I guess those of Sifu Chow's line would have to enlighten us as the the inclusion of the Katana in their practice and the role it plays as either a stand alone weapon or as cross training for the other more traditional Chinese weapons.


Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell

[MightyB]

I'm referring to the 9 ring broadsword as the Two handed broadsword form that I know.

This is a link to a sword that is very similar to a katana but is Chinese in origin and I think is used for Tai Chi.

http://www.hdmartialart.com/proddetail.asp?prod=hctcsd

[MantisifuFW]

MightyB,

The Two Handed Nine Ring Broadsword, (Jiu Huan Da Dao), is certainly in the lineage of weapons that would include the Military Two-Handed Sword and the techniques would certainly apply. To include it in your practice would be to explore another facet of this facinating weapon and would be technically appropriate.

However, looking specifically at historical accuracy, the Military Two-Handed Sword Form, "The Military In the Midst of the Enemy Two-Handed Sword" taught by Wong Hon-Fun, (Jun Zhong Da Dao) was, at least in my research, not ever done with the Jiu Huan Da Dao. The reason was that the rings would cause noise that would keep the troops from closing into the midst of the enemy at night and then engaging in close-quarters combat; a tactic that gave the Chinese military their first victory of the war against a better-equiphed Japanese force in the Battle of Shanghai, among others.

Additionally, the form created for the military was, apparently, taken from a much more technically demanding and varied set of techniques taught for this weapon at the Qingwu. This set, sadily, seems to have been lost as far as I can tell from my inquiries in Shanghai. In order to explore this weapon further, I would recommend that you look into other 9 Ring sword forms of other styles too. The tactics go far beyond that in the military form.

Steve Cottrell

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello Steve ,
The Jun Zhong Da Dao form you mentioned is that the one that is based on far older Pu Dao techniques but adapted for the smaller handled Da Dao ?

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

As I have heard it, the category of Da Dao can be found to include Guan Dao Pu Daoand many others. The common requirement is that nearly always the handle of a Da Dao was at least as long as the blade of the weapon. Of course the military Da Dao is an exception, (for ease of carring by a soldier), as is the present day rendition of the Jiu Huan Da Dao.

So my answer, in a lesser sense, would be yes. But the techniques of the Da Dao having a shorter handle than either the Guan Dao or the Pu Dao would be far more varied. As to what came first, a Da Dao used as a sword or a Da Dao used as a halberd I will leave to others with a greater archeological background.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[buddhapalm]

Dear MantissifuFW,
Could you tell me more about this lost two handed saber form from Ching Wu. Do you know its name ? Any other info about it.

My system has a two handed saber form that is very very likely from the Ching Wu Society of Canton in around 1920's. Probably about a 50% chance that it is. I am still conducting my research on the matter, but any knowledge you have of this and any other 1920/30's Ching wu material would be most appreciated.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

teleka@pacbell.net

[MantisifuFW]

Buddahpalm,

My information comes from a couple of old texts that reference it and talking to folks in Shanghai. No one I spoke to had seen the set or performed it themselves. I do know that it was the 20s-30s timeframe you spoke of and that there was only one. It was reportedly longer than the military form, (32 postures) and had many more sophisticated movements and cutting actions. That is all I have in general terms.

I would doubt that there would be a separate set created for that branch alone so the odds are in your favor that it is the set or a version of it.

If you don't mind I have a few questions about the techniques in the set that I will ask off list.

I wish you well in your research.

Steve Cottrell

[buddhapalm]

Dear MantissifuFW,
No guarantee that it is from Ching Wu for sure, but I have a strong belief it may be.
My Sigung learned from Ma Kin Fung of the Lohan Moon style in Canton back in the 1930's. Ma Kin Fung learned Lohan Moon from Sun Yu Fung in the Keung Wah Ching Wu in Canton.
My Sigung (Dea Bak Do) learned from Ma Kin Fung, yet only 3 forms in our system are found in other branches of Ma Kin Fungs followers. Also I have an old photo of my Sigung wearing a Ching wu style white kung fu jacket ... but without the patch. So I am guessing that much of my forms come from pre-1940's Ching Wu. Either he learned it directly, or he learned indirectly from Ma Kin Fung.
Our two handed saber form is called "Chun Wong Dao" or in English Emperor Chun's (Chun Chi Wongs) Saber.
We also have:
Erlang Quan, Wu Song Breaks Chains, Flower Fist, Roc Fist, Angry Waves Fist (Kong Lahn Fist), Wind Demon Fist (Fung Mor Kuen), Big Buddha Palm, Eight Gate Pole, Eight Gate Saber, Clear Wind Guan Dao (Ching Fung Dai Dao), Seven Star Word, Moon Tooth Shovel, Luk Hap Plum Blossom Spear, Luk Hap Yin Yang Pole, Shaolin Secret Pole (AKA Earth Demon Pole).

Please let me know if any of these names coincide with any names you stumble upon in your path.

Kindest Regards

Buddhapalm

[MantisifuFW]

Buddahpalm,

thank you for your generous offering of information. I will copy it and take it with me next time I go to China or have the chance to speak to those there.

I have pm'ed you concerning a possible avenue of research we could do to determine the origin of the set you mentioned. Please let me know off list what you think.

Again my sincere thanks,

Steve Cottrell

[Young Mantis]

Additionally, the form created for the military was, apparently, taken from a much more technically demanding and varied set of techniques taught for this weapon at the Qingwu. This set, sadily, seems to have been lost as far as I can tell from my inquiries in Shanghai. In order to explore this weapon further, I would recommend that you look into other 9 Ring sword forms of other styles too. The tactics go far beyond that in the military form.
Steve Cottrell

Sifu Cottrell,

I am curious as to where you heard that the form "Gwun Jung Dai Doe" as passed on by Wong Hon Funn was taken from a Jing Mo set. According to WHF's written introduction for this form, he states that Law Gwong Yuk created this set based on dai doe techniques (not a specific form) of Fahn Yuk Tung. What is similar to your theory however is that WHF does state that LGY simplified the techniques and took the most effective or applicable techniques to create this set so it is only a subset of techniques from FYT. According to this article then, the form was not derived from a Jing Mo dai doe set since FYT did not ever teach at Jing Mo. I would be interested in hearing or seeing evidence that states the origins of this form to be otherwise.

Vance Young
YM

[MightyB]

Young Mantis's post is pretty much what I was told about the form.

____

Also, I never learned it but there is a two man set for the cern sau do against a spear that some of my si hing know.

[MantisifuFW]

YM,

I was also aware of the introduction to the Military Da Dao book that discussed the origins of the Da Dao from Master Fan. However, I found in discussions with others in Shanghai and in documentary evidence, that the Qing Wu had instructors who taught the military. They further stated that there was a set connected with that instruction and that instructors at the Qingwu used this as a source in their training of the military. (Though they also say that it had to be simplified). As you say, Master Fan was not at the Qingwu, but Master Luo and WHF were. I had to consider the possiblity that there could be some influence if not direct sourcing of material from the Qing Wu to the form.

Being faced with two possible influences on the present Da Dao set, I am both investigating the Qing Wu side and am in discussions with mainland Qixing Tanglangquan folks to see if Quanpu or movement phrases from either school match what we now have in the Military Dai Dao. I believe it is the best course for objective verification of the origins for the set. Most likely both stories are to some degree accurate, but if I can verify and find source material for possible origins and development of the set I believe it would be valuable.

I appreciate your bringing the information about the introductory material to the fore, I was writing in a hurry, as I am now, got to catch a plane and simply left it out.

But while we are on the subject...


MightyB,

As you have also been informed as to the origins of the set, its history and its performance I would really like for you elaborate on the Nine Ring's inclusion in the military broadsword tradition. It would be facinating to me since, as I have said earlier, I have never heard of it being used and in fact was told flatly that it was not. Obviously my information in this area was not complete as you maintain that the Nine Ring is a part of this tradition.

Always great to learn something new.

Steve Cottrell

[MightyB]

It could be that the short handled 9 ring saber is the same size and weight as a two handed saber without rings. And, since Chung Sigung's (Chung Ho Yin) explanation of the history of the routine "Cern Sau Do" was pretty much what Young Mantis said in his post, I could say that the history of the military Two Handed Broadsword form is from LGY (I did say that it's from around WWII... for fighting the Japanese and all that).

Granted that since Chung Ho Yin actually knew WHF (best man at his wedding and all), his interpretation of the history could be correct.

but who's to say... I could be remembering wrong. I've been out of the loop for a while since I have to have a real job and had to move away from my school and my Sifu and all of my Sihing.

Anyway, I don't know the whole history, could care less to tell ya the truth, but back to the original post... I've learned a two handed saber set (with a short handled 9 ring saber) and I've been doing 7 star quite well for the past decade, and those pictures are different from what I learned, but... there is a two handed saber set (cern sau do) in 7 star mantis. There's also a Cern Sau Do Doi Chern (phonetically spelled) that my Sihing knows. There are probably more forms with that weapon and variations of that weapon, but I don't know them and probably won't ever learn them.

Also, there is a chinese weapon, which I've put a link to in my earlier post, that looks exactly like a katana. The description of the weapon says it's for tai chi, but I don't see a reason why it couldn't be substituted in the routine "Cern Sau Do" (two handed saber).

....

The history of all this stuff is so vague anyway. I don't disagree with any of you guys. It had to come from something older, unfortunately, it's probably lost to history. Chances are that if you dig deep enough, you'll find somebody who knows the older set for the two handed saber. There are a lot of people in China... And I think that's what you've all been talk'n bout. I really don't care.

Did I answer the question on the post?

[Young Mantis]

Sifu Cottrell,

I think your efforts in finding more history of this set is a worthy endeavor and I wish you luck in your research. My take on it is this. Master WHF did in fact teach at JingMo. He also continued to teach many of the JingMo sets at his own schools. He does make clear though which sets are PM and which are JM. He does not mention JM as an influence or source for this Dai Doe set.

That JM had a Dai Doe set and that it was taught to the military would not surprise me. You don't mention whether or not your sources claim this to be a set that influenced the set documented and taught by Master WHF. So these could be two very distinct and different sets that have no relation to each other. It could be that they are coincidentally similar even though one never influenced the other since both were fairly basic and simple to teach to the military. Yet if you were to find someone who still knows the JM set and saw there were similar movements, does that necessarily mean one influenced the other? Then your research may end up artificially interjecting a relationship between the two forms when one never existed and then history would be altered.

I am all for research into the history of our style. I have read many theories and ideas however that seem contrived and would alter history as it is passed down. One could say that the history taught was incorrect but then how is any historical account truly objective? I am content to believe what is passed on to me as history and take it for what it is. If the historical record were to one day be verified as different than what is passed down to me, it would not change the system as I practice it and it would not change how I would continue to promote the system.

Vance Young
YM

[mantid1]

What makes a weopon set praying mantis?

[mantid1]

any takers on this one?

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello MightyB,
I also study 7 Star but have never come across a two hand sabre form before , could you elaborate more on the form Cern Sau Do that you know? :confused:

[MightyB]

I just went to the Midland Martial Arts Open and I got a chance to talk to my Sihing who knows both the Cern Sau Do and the Cern Sau Do Doi Chern.

I have to eat crow a little bit here because he said that my Sigung said that the Cern Sau Do form that we do is a military form, but... it comes from Lau Fat Man's Eagle Claw.

My Sigung Chung Ho Yin was a master of both Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis, but he only openly taught Praying Mantis. By my Sihing's recollection, he said that it was a set that Lau Fat Man taught to the military to fight the Japanese. It's a counter for the samurai sword.

I really can't elaborate too much in words, it's more of something that you have to see.

Like I said, I'm a little out of the loop since I had to move away and I didn't treat my martial arts study like an academic thesis... I'm much more of a do-er rather than a researcher. If it's good kung fu, I like to train in it, I don't need to talk about it or research it, I just like to do it.

Anyway... the Cern Sau Do form that I know is from Eagle Claw.

I was wrong, maybe 7 Star doesn't have a two-handed Saber.

-- Kurt

[Three Harmonies]

Kurt
No crow needed, you just taught us something new. My main question is this... what is the difference between whether or not the form comes from Eagle Claw or Mantis? Are there specific moves indicative of the Mantis or Eagle Claw?? Or are we talking purely what styel and from whom stuff was passed down?

Thanks
Jake :D

PS Anyone have clips they can share so we can all get an idea?

[mantid1]

Like I have asked before. What makes a weapons set Mantis?

I hope it is a more clear cut answer than what is mantis :)

[MantisCool]

Most of you know about the book on Military Da Dao by WHF which was published in 1955 and he has mentioned that it was created by LGY based on the Chan Ma Dao of FYT.

But there is another of his book published 4 years earlier in 1951 titled

"螳 螂 拳 术 隨 筆" = A write up of Tang Lang Quan Shu.

In this book, on page 39 and 40 under the Paragraph "A Discussion on the Da Dao Dui" he said that 3 or 4 of LGY's students were teaching in the military and they require a Da Dao form to teach. Since, there isnt any in the past LGY created one based of the Chan Ma Dao of FYT. The form was made simple and practical for military use. At the same time, Chin Woo invited a few martial artists to contribute to a Da Dao form and due to many cooks it is found to be complicated and thus unpractical. That form was named as "Lian He Da Dao" or Combined Da Dao.

[Young Mantis]

MightyB,

Actually, I don't think you have to eat that crow after all. The "Gwun Jung Dai Doe" set in the WHF curriculum was said to be a military taught form to counter the Japanese katana. Perhaps your sihing remembered the history incorrectly. Earlier in this thread we already discussed the history of this set. I would suggest asking Sibak Henry Chung. Please give him my regards. It was a great pleasure for us when he visited us in NYC.

Mantid1,

Your question about the weapon sets is an interesting and difficult one to answer. Do the weapon sets have stylistic differences that define them as part of their respective styles? In general, weapons are more easily defined by Northern and Southern differences. For example, the northern spear is held with the butt of the spear in the right hand whereas the southern spear is held with the butt in the left. However, that said, I think if you were to watch a wing chun practitioner fighting with the long staff using their "six point five staff" and a hung gar practitioner fighting with a long staff using their "fifth brother eight trigrams staff", you could tell the difference and maybe even identify who is who if you have seen enough of both. The same could be said of other styles. The weapon techniques may not necessarily follow the same theories and principles as their empty hand counterparts, but certainly they can be said to be identifiable by style. Well, anyway, this is my initial thought on this subject. I'll have to analyze our forms in this regard a little more and get back to you on this. Anyone else have an idea?

Mantiscool,

That was an awesome find. While I have perused through that book several times, I did not remember that article. Thanks for pointing it out. I just took out the book and will have to re-read it again. I'm sure this helps out Sifu Cottrell as well since he now has a form name to reference as well as the name of the JingMo instructor who sought out the creation of their form.

Vance
YM

[WhiteMonkey]

"I would suggest asking Sibak Henry Chung."

Why not just ask Master Chow, he was a student of WHF in the 40's, and a contemporary to shifu Chung Ho Yin, he's the one preforming the form mentioned.....if anyone know's he does!!

It doesnt hurt to ask,

WM

[MantisifuFW]

Most of you know about the book on Military Da Dao by WHF which was published in 1955 and he has mentioned that it was created by LGY based on the Chan Ma Dao of FYT.

But there is another of his book published 4 years earlier in 1951 titled

"螳 螂 拳 术 隨 筆" = A write up of Tang Lang Quan Shu.

In this book, on page 39 and 40 under the Paragraph "A Dicussion on the Dao Dao Dui" he said that 3 or 4 of LGY's students were teaching in the military and they require a Da Dao form to teach. Since, there isnt any in the past LGY created one based of the Chan Ma Dao of FYT. The form was made simple and practical for military use. At the same time, Chin Woo invited a few martial artists to contribute to a Da Dao form and due to many cooks it is found to be complicated and thus unpractical. That form was named as "Lian He Da Dao" or Combined Da Dao.

Mantiscool,

Thank you for this additional information. It makes clear that the author considered the two Da Dao sets to be of separate origin and also establishes the origin to be of the Chan Ma Dao and not the Miao Dao. The old books continue to have influence and guide us. I wonder if WHF ever thought that they would have such a long life and dynamic?

INdeed as YM has said, this helps out a great deal. Thank you for providing a copy of the reference, also. It means that for the research to continue I should continue looking for the Qingwu Da Dao as a historical referent, but also should focus on Chan Ma Dao sets among Yantai's Qixing Tanglang Quan families. I will let you guys know what I find!

(Just when you think you have nothing to do...)

Great information,

Steve Cottrell

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello all ,
Thanks for the info Mantiscool . I am interested in the CHAN MA DAO form as it is something I am not familiar with . Is there any more information available on this set ? :)

[Young Mantis]

"I would suggest asking Sibak Henry Chung."

Why not just ask Master Chow, he was a student of WHF in the 40's, and a contemporary to shifu Chung Ho Yin, he's the one preforming the form mentioned.....if anyone know's he does!!

It doesnt hurt to ask,

WM

Hi WM,

The form illustrated by Master Chow is definitely not the same form we have been discussing. I know the WHF "Gwun Jung Dai Doe" set and that is not the set he is showing on the site. I suggested MightyB check with his Sifu since that is his source for the set we are discussing now. I know the thread originally started asking about Master Chow's set but it seems to have diverged from it since no one else has recognized the set yet and we started talking about the two handed sabre in general for the 7* lineage. This set is the only one I know of not counting the Jahm Ma Doe and the Gwan Doe.

YM

[Three Harmonies]

Feelerstrike
I do a Zhan Ma Dao (Horse Cutter Knife) set. What questions do you have, or is this pertaining to your specific lineage's set? Let me know if I can help.
Jake :D

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello Three Harmonies,
I am interested to know more on the Chan Ma Dao set of Fan Xu Dong as I have never come across it before . We have a Pu Dao set but I am not familiar with a Ma Dao . I would be interested to know the difference between the two weapons .
I have seen illustrations of a set by WHF for the Da Dao or two handed sabre , are these weapons related ?