PDA

View Full Version : Wall Bag



Pages : [1] 2

WSLfan
08-25-2000, 04:33 PM
Just wondering what other Wing Chun schools use inside there Wall Bag.
I use graval 1 to 2 cubic centimetres.

vingtsunstudent
08-25-2000, 11:42 PM
hey mate
we also use gravel or blue metal(a harder type of rock)once the student is used to using the gravel ones.

Sihing73
08-26-2000, 05:29 PM
Hello,

Boy, I must be a wimp /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We normally start out with beans or even rice and work our way up from there. We may end up with gravel, but I have found sand to be sufficient in the long run. Since I am not longer worrying aobut being attacked every day I usually find sand to be enough. Still, we can progess up to gravel and eventually to iron fillings or ball bearings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also find the same prpgressin when training for Bui Tze. Start with something like rice or beans then to sand then to gravel and finally to iron fillings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am assuming you guys do not just start out with gravel but I may be wrong.

Peace,

Dave

Mark
08-27-2000, 11:36 AM
Sihing-
We start out on a light gravel its not that hard. I use only use rice in my bag and its the same as the first gravel bag that the others are talking about.

WSLfan
08-27-2000, 05:36 PM
Vingtsunstudent and Mark
"Other wing chun school". Because a far as I know the other school in Newcaslte uses a softer bag than we do. So they don't damage their knuckles and sue their instructor.
My Bag at home is heaps harder than the hard bag at the school and that blue metal (the rock are larger but don't cut my knuckles).

WSLfan
08-27-2000, 05:57 PM
Sihing73
Yes we start with small gravel which doesn't pack as hard as sand which is good enough of hitting people and sinking in, but to increase power the harder bag is used (with a bit of small gravel to make it pack hard).
And as Vingtsunstudent said Blue metal is about the same as a person head. I haven't used iron fillings but my instructor has used ball bearings. Rice is good if you want to use gloves, When it feels like as hard gavel bag you can go straight glove without it slowing you down.

benny
08-30-2000, 07:53 AM
come on guys!
why dont you just whip em out and prove it.
wsl fan you shouldnt say stuff like that about "the other school"
see ya

WSLfan
09-06-2000, 10:08 AM
Benny I don't care how many times you ask me I not going "whip em out"

kungfu cowboy
02-11-2001, 05:05 AM
I want to buy one or make one. Anyone know of a good place to buy one? Can they be easily handmade, or is there a certain way to pack them? Thanks!

Watchman
02-11-2001, 05:33 AM
Check out the "Supplies" section at

http://www.wckfc.com

We've got 'em for sale.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Martial Joe
02-11-2001, 06:07 AM
Im not trying to shoot down your busness watchman but isnt 20 bucs a bit to much for a wall back....Just go get one at www.allblackbelt.com (http://www.allblackbelt.com) when i got mine i thnk it was iether 9 or 14 i dont remember how much it was.

Martial Joe
02-11-2001, 06:09 AM
O,and watchman...ive been to your site before i joined this forum..its very good...keep it up,and chek out my homepage...
www.expage.com/joeswingchunkungfupage (http://www.expage.com/joeswingchunkungfupage)


Joe :cool:

Watchman
02-11-2001, 07:08 AM
Thanks For the comment Joe. I'll pass it along to my "Web Boy".

I've never comparison shopped wall-bags before so I don't know if $20.00 is pricy. I do know that the Council's wall-bags are pretty durable -- I've had my personal one for six years now and it's still holding up. If you can find one cheaper, go for it.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Martial Joe
02-11-2001, 07:55 AM
This is kinda off topic but i was wondering how often you use your wall bag...how many times a day do you punch it?and im also curious how hard a wall bag should be...i forgot to ask my sifu because his is hardser then mine...he has one with rice in it and one with sand in it...i have rice in mine right now.


Joe :cool:

Watchman
02-11-2001, 08:41 AM
Joe: I use my wall-bag almost every day, but in different ways than just puching against the wall. Also, I only use rice in it (which is the best way to practice subhydroshock power - sand doesn't give you the penetrative effect). When punching against the wall I fill it at little mroe than 3/4 full and do a minumim of 1000 punches to practice penetrating power. I also practice by laying the wall-bag on something about waist height and dropping my fist or palm into it to develop sinking power with full relaxation. Additionally, you can use it at about half full and toss it in the air alternatingly seizing it with your fingers to practice Biu Tze's thrusting power to attack pressure points and gain power in the hands for joint wrenching, etc. A fun partner exercise is to toss the bag back and forth doing the same thing.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Martial Joe
02-11-2001, 08:46 AM
Thanks...you learne under Yip Ching rite...well my sifus name is John Kaufman..i dont know if you know him but hes good freinds with Marty Anderson..if you dont know him he was the first wite student of Tsui Sheung Tin...just seeing if you know any of some of the poeple i look up to.My sifu worked with Yip Ching alil bit so i figured you might know him.

Joe :cool:

Watchman
02-11-2001, 09:17 AM
Actually, I don't train under Ip Ching per se. My sifu (Ron Heimberger) is a personal student of his, so that makes Ip Ching my SiGung. Ip Ching has been out to teach seminars for us (and he's coming to smack us around again in May), so that's where I've gotten my experience training with him. Just wanted to clear that up.

I'm sure Ron knows the guys you mentioned (or at least has met them). He went on a trip out to Ohio a couple of years ago to hang out with Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and Tui Shing Tin. He said Tui Shing Tin was quite the prankster and had fun playing with Ron's limited Cantonese.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

BeiKongHui
02-11-2001, 05:28 PM
I like the wall bags Wing Lam (http://www.wle.com/store/tools.html) sells. I fill mine with mung beans but I know a couple of guys who use aquarium gravel.

Martial Joe-Good site but I think "A Lifetime" should be a choice on the mini-quiz ;)

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Watchman
02-11-2001, 08:28 PM
I knew a kid back in the day who worked for a steel fabricating outfit and filled his wall-bag with steel shavings. He'd wrap his hands and pound on the bag until his knuckles bled.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Martial Joe
02-11-2001, 10:09 PM
If you dont go through years of conditioning with rice and sand cant you get arthritis from hiting something so hard?

Joe :cool:

Watchman
02-12-2001, 12:33 AM
Yeah, I'm sure you can. This kid also liked to hit his own shins with coke bottles filled with sand. He's probably a parapalegic by now.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

cha kuen
04-03-2001, 10:33 PM
Where can I get the small bead bag that hangs on the wall?

benny
04-06-2001, 02:50 AM
they are supposed to have rocks.
the whole point is to punch the wall using the bag as padding.without giving way in your stance or structure.

05-13-2001, 09:10 AM
Hello Fellas,

Can I know where can I purchase the dried beans to fill my wall bag? Also is dried beans a good ingredient to use or steel shots are better. If so, where can I get them?
Any help is truly appreciated.
Thanks!

kungfu cowboy
05-13-2001, 09:17 AM
You can find dried beans at the grocery store. For steel shot you can use BB's. I think its safer to start with beans though.

mikey
05-14-2001, 12:51 AM
yeah, cowboy's right.you can get the beans from just about any grocery store.
Those bb's can get awful expensive.I recommend going to a local gun shop that sells reloading supplies.you should be able to buy a 25 pound bag of steel bird shot in a variety of sizes.

wongfeilung809
07-17-2001, 11:33 PM
how many of the wing chun people out there use one? how do you go about training with one, and what benfits do you get with one?
simpleangles

whippinghand
07-17-2001, 11:42 PM
I don't use wall bags, but I use the wall instead.
Helps with the alignment of your fist. Helps you with the ONE punch.

wongfeilung809
07-17-2001, 11:52 PM
wouldnt it be easy to punch though a wall? maybe their just made thin down here...
simpleangles

EmptyCup
07-17-2001, 11:57 PM
I use one but a hanging bag is better when you're experienced enough with the wall bag. That's because a hanging bag moves, rotates, and is much heavier than a wall bag.

Hang your wall bag between your head and neck level (when you're in a horse stance)

Make sure you're the correct distance away for optimal punching: place your fist against the bag and see if there is one fist's distance between your elbow and your body. If there is too much distance, you're too far, it your elbow is too close, then you're too close :)

When punching, use the shifting lateral stance for optimal power from waist torque.

Aim to punch through the bag i.e. aim for the wall behind the bag so you don't "stop short" at just the surface of the bag. This visualization aid helps you develop greater stopping power.

Try to use a canvas bag that is stuffed enough to look like a puffy pillow. Canvas conditions your hands more, but you can always tape over the contact part if you don't want the friction against your hands.

The wall bag not only helps with developing punching power, but trains you to get used to the feel of hitting a solid object and helps you understand your reach in terms of punching distance.

most bags are filled with plastic bits. Those are fine but if you want the "traditional" feel, use beans. Just remember to change them every so often. :)

whippinghand
07-18-2001, 12:02 AM
After a plaster wall, you can move up to brick wall. Or just hit your wooden dummy. That's much better than a wall bag. There's too much give in a wall bag, and the bag won't tell you if you're punching wrong.

OdderMensch
07-18-2001, 12:50 AM
Once again almost the exact oposite of what i learned!

:D

Where did you learn from? I come from the Yip Man family and have seen from Lueng Ting and Ku Sang both from my Sifu Steve Cotrell and from Sifu Allen Lamb.

I should note that I'm still only a couple of years into the system, and i am not saying you are wrong. I am just curious where you info comes from.

As for wall bags I have two that are filled with sand. I've moved recently and have not found a good place to hang them in my new pad, but i want them one abouve the other with the top of the top bag at about neck hieght, and the other attached to the bottom. This way I can practice "sueng kuen" properly. Idealy they would ne on a brick or masonary wall.

whippinghand
07-18-2001, 12:56 AM
I don't need to state my lineage to back me up. Information is information. That is... until it becomes knowledge.

EmptyCup
07-18-2001, 12:58 AM
How can one punch with full force against a brick wall without breaking his knuckles or hand?

If you can punch fully without injuring yourself, then you must be a weak puncher :)

Or you are not punching fully as to avoid injury. in that case, why not punch something which you can use full force?

Wall punching is not necessary. A bag is fine for wing chun purposes.

If a person needs something to tell him when he's punching properly, then hitting a dummy won't do him any good as any person advanced enough to tell whether they are hitting the dummy right or wrong can obviously know enough to understand if he can punch properly or not i.e. correct posture and form.

Start with a wall bag, progress to a hanging bag, then do dummy last. Starting on the dummy before you're advanced enough leads to bad habits.

whippinghand
07-18-2001, 01:07 AM
Based on EVERYTHING that you have suggested, are you CERTAIN that you can put a man to the ground?

"Full force" is a martial art illusion.

Sihing73
07-18-2001, 01:08 AM
Hello,

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the idea that hitting a wall bag is less advantageous than hitting a wall. Hitting a wall is asking for trouble, IMHO and no one I know would advocate hitting the dummy directly. Come on, are you trying to develope your hands to strike through armour? ;)

I know of karate people who used to do what Whipping Hand is advocating. Most of them have less then full use of their hands now. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a wall bag. It will correct the structure of your punch and it provides just enough cushion for you to strike. The wall is still providing the resistence and the energy will be fed back to you to a degree.

Perhaps part of the problem is that Whipping Hand seems to think that the power for his punch comes from the conditioning of his knuckles, at least this is how it seems to me. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong :D The power in the Wing Chun punch comes from the structure. The proper alignment of your elbow and the stance. Conditioning of the knuckles, at least to the degree of striking a wall without any protection is uneccessary and a bit foolish. No matter how well conditioned your hand is, there are still many small bones and ligiments which can be easily damaged. Take a look at professional boxers. Do you see Mike Tyson practicing hitting using the wall or a heavy bag? But hey, I guess these guys, who can probably hit a heck of a lot harder then most of us, really don't know what they are doing.

Sometimes I love reading some of the stuff put forth on these boards. I am not sure whether some of the people actually believe what they say or think it impresses the rest of us. Listen, I can introduce anyone here to some real hard-core trainers and none of them, NONE OF THEM, would tell you to hit a wall with your bare fist!!!!

It is all fine and good to talk about different things but lets remember the world we live in. It is not commonplace to need to punch through someones armour today. Besides, if you look at the history of Wing Chun it seems pretty obvious that strength and power were not the most essential ingredients for success, seems to me power comes secondary to efficiency and senstitivity. but hey, maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years :rolleyes:

Peace,

Dave

whippinghand
07-18-2001, 01:11 AM
Perhaps you have.

OdderMensch
07-18-2001, 01:13 AM
;) just kidding

Im not looking for you to back yourself up or depending on liniage to suport your statment, i am just intrested in the different branchs of our system.

On line I speak for myself, I expect you do the same.

Also if I knew your "lineage" then i could check out with other sources(web sites, books, other practicioners) about how and why you do/train as you say. I dont think that "lineage" is of great import, but it is useful information.

Sihing73
07-18-2001, 01:20 AM
Hello,

How many "real" fights have you been in? Or are you just basing your views on what you were "taught"?

I KNOW I can put a person on the ground, sometimes even with just one punch :eek: I have done it. I also know that I can be PUT ON THE GROUND, sometimes with one punch :p

I have had the privilege of training with quite a few different people and I have to say that your assertions seem to be slightly different to most people out there. I can respect your not wishing to state your lineage, too many hide behind that, but perhaps it would be helpful if you let others get an idea of where your ideas come from. Hopefully not videos or books ;)

Seriously, any of us on the internet and in this medium can say anything we want to. None of us knows if the other is blowing smoke or not. However, once met in person all of the "theory" will give way to reality. I have said before I am not that tough but I know that Wing Chun, as I practice it works. I know that the system and the methods put forth by most on this board are reliable and will work. I also know that it is easier to mask ones lacking behind "deep" philosophical sayings without really answering the question.

You may be the best Wing Chun guy out there. However, from some of the replies you have made I do not find that likely. People on this board post from such sources as; Augustine Fong, William Cheung, Alan Lamb, Kenneth Chung, Leung Ting, Simon Lay, Samual Kwok, Yip Ching and Yip Chun and many others. Are we to really believe that all of these people are wrong and your method is right? Do you have any way of backing up your claims?

Peace,

Dave

EmptyCup
07-18-2001, 01:25 AM
I agree with sihing73

Whipping Hand-

No Wing Chun lineage teachers one to punch walls. That violates wing chun's principles. It's something that is brute force and hard training. wing Chun relies on technique.

If you want to train that way, then fine, but it's not part of the Wing Chun style. And unless you state your lineage, saying you know it and don't need to back it up means your words are basically worthless because you could say it's from the secret lineage of Wing Chun or something to that effect.

If you say something as advice to people who don't know, then expand and elaborate, not remain secretive or cryptic. If you want to guard your information, why write anything at all? Bringing up points in one-liners and not defending your position because you feel you are right doesn;t help anybody at all. You may very well be right but I think you already knew that :)

The point of this forum is to share information, not prove to yourself how right you are. Prove it to others or at least attempt to...otherwise why say anything? The point is to convince others if you have good helpful knowledge, not feel superior and all-knowing.

Just my bit.

EmptyCup
07-18-2001, 01:35 AM
In Toronto, there are many Wing Chun sifus, most of them established and famous.

Ho Kam Ming, Sunny Tang, Stewart Fung, etc, etc

There are also William Cheung version teachers downtown (where you stated you learned)

No Wing Chun teacher in Toronto I have heard of teachers your principles or theories. My teacher had private lessons with Yip Man and was given permission from si-gung to teach. Same with many Hong Kong masters such as the late Wong Shun Leung, Yip man's sons Ip Ching and Ip Chun, and other elders such as the late Moy Yat, Leung Sheung, etc... None of them teach your methods.

Even Leung Ting's version and William cheung's version are different. Another famous teacher Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming (now based in Toronto) is different than your views.

And Yuen Kay San Gu Lao, Po Fa Lien wing chun lineages definitely don't teach your methods.

I am very curious as to who you learned from. I am concerned that you might have been duped into thinking what you learned was Wing Chun when it might have been something entirely different :)

dzu
07-18-2001, 01:39 AM
I use the wall bag to practice my punching because of the force it returns to my structure. This force requires me to root properly and stay relaxed or the force stays inside my system and affects me by shocking my head. I practice using YJKYM and punch first without shifting and then with some slight shifting. It's filled with rice and beans. We refill it whenever it starts to sag.

I use a 6' hanging heavy bag to practice uprooting upon contact with all of my strikes (punch, palm, kick, etc.)

I use the dummy to develop power transfer through my bridges and to make sure that the power is directed to the center.

regards,

Dzu

whippinghand
07-18-2001, 07:25 AM
You guys have somehow stuck it in your head that when I said that I hit a wall, I use full force. Remember Sihing73, in my e-mail to you, I wrote that I am very particular about my words, so read the m carefully. I did not say full-force. I also stated that "full force is an illusion". What do you think that means?

EmptyCup, who are you to determine what is part of the Wing Chun style? And who are the names that you stated to define it? Perhaps you need your lineage to back you up. I do not. Nor do I need to defend myself. That is the essense of Wing Chun. I have provided much information on this forum. I don't need to back it up. If you want to explore what I say, power to you, if not, power to me. It's power to me either way. If what I do is not Wing Chun by your standards or everyone else's. Call it what you will. It works.

Wing Chun is not defined by the method you train it. It's in the end result. So if I choose to hit a wall, or hit a sand bag, if the end result is an aligned punch, then success. However, hitting a wall will get you there faster. And it will prove to be a more effective punch with fruitful results, not like a "full-force" punch.

EmptyCup
07-18-2001, 08:39 AM
I think it is you who needs to read my message carefully as you clearly missed the whole point of it.

Your answer is no answer at all. You merely enforced the contents of my message to you.

Drop the self-satisfaction, self-gratifying and ego-boosting stuff and maybe your words might have usefulness. Until then, you're only fooling yourself :rolleyes:

EmptyCup
07-18-2001, 08:46 AM
forgot to reply to your question because I didn't know it was directed at me...

I have dropped people to the ground many times. But I'm never certain I can do it beforehand. Nobody can know if they will win a fight until the fight is over. Certainty leads to harsh reality... :)

Many people who have lost to me were certain of their victory until I showed them otherwise. Certainty means jack. Reality is what counts.

Daredevil
07-18-2001, 02:11 PM
I'm in full agreement with Sihing73 here. What WhippingHand is suggesting is ridiculous.

If you want to condition your hands (ie. knuckles in this case) you better use wiser methods unless you want to destroy your hands. That's anotehr discussion however.

If you want to learn punching, a bag is much better. It simulates a human body much better than a wall. Duh. :)

Edited: Ah. I can see the point of using a wall to align your fist, hand and body. That's different yes. But good ol' punching at a bag is still a very good idea. Try it before you knock it, if you don't believe it.

BeiKongHui
07-18-2001, 02:27 PM
Are you really Yoda or a Zen master or some thing?

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

whippinghand
07-19-2001, 03:14 AM
Would it make what I write more agreeable, if I said yes?

whippinghand
07-19-2001, 03:17 AM
Are you sure that you are not the one who is fooled? I know your answer already, of course. BUT, are you CERTAIN?

remo
07-19-2001, 04:17 AM
Simpleangles,

I prefer working with a partner and using a focus mitt for punching practice. Not even the great science of physics can measure the force of a punch (or so I’ve been told :) ), but your training partner can, and give you feed back after every punch.

You can’t always have a partner to train with, so what’s a martial artist to do?

I think the wall bag and the heavy bag are fairly good replacements. I would caution you to work up slowly on either one to avoid rotator cuff injuries. (in the shoulder joint) I also like the speed ball, others hate it, to each his own. When I’m working out alone, I try to work in a little bit of all three approaches.

Always interested in different takes on training and conditioning, let us know how it goes. :)

Ars vitae
07-19-2001, 09:36 AM
Personally I prefer to train with bags, either wall mounted or held by someone. With the wall the surface is dependent on weether I'd hit it, if at all, but with the wall bag, you have the safety of a cushion to absorb and disappate your energies through it, which allows you to increase the ammont of energy you decide to release into. Also with teh wall, you can't practise stance turningthat well, as you'd end up not aligning your punch and structure for maximum efficincy. This is why I like a partnered bag work. This allows for attacks to come in at different angles, while allowing for chasing techniques to close in on a target and gettign positioning and structure right by having someone monitor my progress.

Sihing73
07-19-2001, 12:39 PM
Hello Ars vitae,

First let me say that I agree with the majority of your post.

I have one minor area in which we seem to disagree. This is the part where you indicate that you can't practice stance turning with a wall or wallbag. May I ask why this is not possible? A wall or wallbag provides a single point of reference upon whihc to practice. When punching while turning you should be able to punch to the same target area while maintining proper alignment. The difference in the position of the fist and or arm is due to the slightly different angle caused by the punch coming from a different stance. The only way to punch the same way as to angle and arm position as without a turn would be to punch to the front in which case you are practicing essentially the same punch as from the frontal stance.

Let me try to illustrate it this way; Your opponent is in front of you and he punches with a heavy attack. You deflect/disperse/accept his punch with a Taun Sau. His force is so great that it causes you to have to turn in order not to meet force with force. At the same time, you punch with the other hand to the opponent. Now, would your target be the same as if you punched without turning? Is your punch reliant on your intent alone or on the position of the opponent as well? If you decide to strike the opponents head while in the front stance, is this still the target if you turn?

I personaly feel that the Wall-Bag provides an excellent training aide. The fact that its position remains constant forces one to insure their stance and truning are correct. As another example think of the dummy. It remains pretty ocnstant and you move around it. Think about this and let me know if you still feel a wall or wall bag is not a good aide for the punch.

Other than this I agree with your post. I may also havem misunderstood your intention in writting;

["Also with teh wall, you can't practise stance turningthat well, as you'd end up not aligning your punch and structure for maximum efficincy. This is why I like a partnered bag work."]

Perhaps you were referring to simply punching against a bare wall. Please feel free to correct me if I am off base on your intention.

Peace,

Dave

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 01:20 AM
I'm not sure if your question is just another attempt to sound cryptic and philosophical or just worded enigmatically.

I don't get it. Sure of what? Sure that I learned authentic Wing Chun? I'm sure I learned a workable system that is as close to Yip Man's wing chun as possible. I am sure what I learned was what he taught. And I am sure what you learned is not. What you do might work for you but it is definitely not "Wing Chun" as how it was taught by most lineages. It might be great on its own right but not the way Wing Chun is supposed to be. And as for asking who am I to decide what's wing chun, I'm merely going on what past masters have taught. That is what decides what is their style- how they taught their styles. You can say it's not proper Wing Chun, but its **** well the way they taught what Wing Chuin should be.

Ars vitae
07-20-2001, 03:23 AM
In response to your inquiry, yes I was talking about the bare wall. I don't mind the wall bag as much, as it sit's slightly out from the wall, the comment is directed primarily at the suggestion of striking a bare wall. With the wall bag, this allows a slight curvecture of the target area, not to mention slight cushion that you'd have on a body. This is much better than a bare wall in my opinion.

Ars vitae
07-20-2001, 03:32 AM
In response to your inquiry, yes I was talking about the bare wall. I don't mind the wall bag as much, as it sit's slightly out from the wall, the comment is directed primarily at the suggestion of striking a bare wall. With the wall bag, this allows a slight curvecture of the target area, not to mention slight cushion that you'd have on a body. This is much better than a bare wall in my opinion. When striking the bare wall, it would impact as Sihing73 mentioned as a force on force impact, which would defintely check your structure's alignment, if not rock it full force, but at a turned stance, you're feet are no longer forming a pyramid, losing part of your structure, which is not good defensibly, but you are attacking, which makes it a different situation, where your chain punch acts as both a defensive and offensive tool. This may bring run on to another thread, but has anyone else thought about WIng Tsun's defensive abilities? It seems to be fantastic for on coming attacks to meet things coming towards you with all your "weapon's" aimed forward then to slide to the side if there is no opening using the "wedge", but has anyone noticed against multiple attacker's, this may leave our side's potnetially compromised? Just at thought, feel free to comment. :)

whippinghand
07-20-2001, 07:13 AM
How do you know for sure, that what they teach is the "way" Wing Chun is supposed to be? Is that what they told you?

However, my initial question was, are you CERTAIN, that you're not the one being fooled, which does relate to the above.

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 07:16 AM
I am absolutely 100% CERTAIN I have not been fooled, but as I stated before, it doesn't mean I'm right.

I am certain but certainty about something doesn't mean I'm correct. So I acknowledge that there is room for my being in error, but I am certain I am right.

Make sense? :)

whippinghand
07-20-2001, 07:24 AM
The real truth is in the wall. You should try it.

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 07:35 AM
er...no thanks :) I'll stay with sandbags for now...I'm not ready to screw up my hands when sandbags' are working fine, not to mention the dummy.

whippinghand
07-20-2001, 08:00 AM
My hands are fine. And my punch is better.

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 09:21 AM
yeah but how do you know they'll still be fine a few years from now?

My dad used to train hard and now that he's older, his training in his younger days has come back to haunt him.

Old rotator cuff injuries, upper and lower back injuries, hand injuries, neck injuries, arthiritis, a host of things

not all might be directly linked to his martial arts stuff but I think it's safe to say most of it is.

And he never even punched a wall :)

OdderMensch
07-20-2001, 10:02 AM
im assumeing from your otherr posts that you are not useing the wall to 'condition" your hands, is this correct?

When i use the bag i get into a YCKMY at proper distance to strike the bag with a bent elbow then i whip my fist into the center of the bag. I do this with a relaxed fist, concentrating on differnt things(ie stance, elbow position, relaxed power) i do this to train my structure to accept force/impact, to not tense or loose my stance, and to a lesser degree to get my hands used to the impact force a proper pnch can deliver.

We have had a few that just punch at the bag with all their might as fast as they can, they usually scrape/bruise the hand and get blood on the sand bag. Sifu always says not to bleed on his stuff, but some people never listen i guess :) .

And when you say "full force is an illusion" what do you mean?

whippinghand
07-20-2001, 12:20 PM
1.Your dad probably wasn't doing whatever he was doing properly. 2. He probably didn't listen to his body.

whippinghand
07-20-2001, 01:01 PM
I have responded to you by e-mail.

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 06:11 PM
In those days his body was in super condition. He never did have any problems. However, about 15-17 years later, the problems surface. His body gave no indication before that it had problems.

With things like these its hard to tell short-term. It's the long term effects that come back to haunt you. This is precisely why I don't want to train by punching a brick wall. YOU might think you're fine now but who knows 10-15 years down the road?

My dad had a friend before who did what you did except he would deliberately break his knuckles over and over again by punching brick walls. That wa, each time the bone re-knitted, his knuckles would be stronger from the layers of bone built upon each other. This guy once fought 11 guys at once!!! He wouldn't block, but attack the opponent's attacking limb. So if somebody went to punch him, he would punch the guy's arm and it would basically be useless since his fists were so strong. Yet I wonder if he can even hold a pen properly nowadays or even his chopsticks when eating...

cobra
07-20-2001, 11:23 PM
The Wall Bag, while not as physically heavy as the hanging bag. Yet, with the wall behind it, it is as if it were much heavier than the hanging bag. So technically, I would say that the wall bag is much heavier.

Just my 4 cents!!

Gazza
07-20-2001, 11:33 PM
Hi could you please help me to understand your comments as you have for Oddermensch I would be greatfull. doghouse@ihug.co.nz

thankyou.
Gary. :cool:

EmptyCup
07-20-2001, 11:56 PM
Are you saying that the wall bag is "heavier" than the hanging bag because it has resistance behind it while the hanging bag does not?

I know my hanging bag weighs about 100 pounds and is stuffed until it is as solid as a wall and rock hard. It is made of pure canvas and hangs from the ceiling. Therefore not only is is large and heavy, but it swings when you hit it and rotates if you don't strike it properly in the center and your blows glance off.

This is more like a real opponent than the wall bag which is much softer and easier on the hands, not to mention (the wall bag) providing less weight and therefore less resistance.

The hanging bag provides more resistance than the wall bag. it It is harder to hit and harder on the hands. The impact is totally different.

Your comments?

cobra
07-21-2001, 03:21 AM
The wall bags we use are canvas, I don't know what they are filled with, but they are not easy on the hands. If you punch "through" the bag you get a lot more resistance which helps to build those muscles up. If you do the same on the heavy bag, it will swing before you reach the same level of resistance. Plus it helps you build up the strength in your YCKYM stance at the same time. Don't get me wrong, I like the heavy bag too, but I feel I get more strength benefit out of the wall bag.

Just my 4 cents!!

EmptyCup
07-21-2001, 06:02 AM
Yeah, if you punch it hard enough it will swing but when it swings back towards you and you punch it again, there is added resistance and momentem moving towards your hand as you punch.

I feel this offers more to me than the wall bag. The more I "punch" through the hanging bag, the harder it comes back at me in the return swing and to avoid it rotating, I must pay attention to punch properly and at the "center" instead of having improper punches glancing off and causing the bag to rotate. This way, not only do I get resistance from the bag swinging at me, but each and evey punch that I do has to be perfect.

whippinghand
07-21-2001, 06:23 AM
So basically you're saying that the wallbag could do some damage as well, but you won't know until 15 years from now... like screw up your tendons because you're alignment was off. But you didn't know because the wall bag let you think that you were punching EFFECTIVELY, just because you were punching HARD (full-force), and your ego was then satisfied.

Full-force is an illusion.

EmptyCup
07-21-2001, 07:46 AM
I don't see how you can tell if your alignment is right on a wall and not tell when on a bag.

If you can tell on a wall then you can tell on a bag.

And yes, regardless of alignment, punching anything can affect you negatively in the future, but I think in the case of sandbag training for ability to defend yourself, it is worth it, but I don't see wall punching as a worthy trade-off for anything because I'm sure it will affect me in a far worse way.

whippinghand
07-21-2001, 04:35 PM
Of course you don't see it. You have not emptied your cup.

EmptyCup
07-22-2001, 12:36 AM
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am wrong. The way you sound, you have already assumed you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you does not have an open mind.

I think maybe it is you who should re-evaluate your "knowledge"

whippinghand
07-22-2001, 07:32 AM
Always have, and always will. What's your excuse?
Do you train at that school on Wood St.?

EmptyCup
07-22-2001, 07:47 AM
nope. My school's not open to the public...it's by reference only. What's the name of the school you're talking about and the exact location intersection-wise? Maybe I'll check it out...

btw, you're pretty arrogant :)

whippinghand
07-22-2001, 08:14 AM
What does that stand for?

Wood St. school is actually called something to the effect of "Close Combat" something or other. I could be wrong. It's at Yonge St. & Wood St. 1 block north of Carlton.

Not arrogant, just direct.

EmptyCup
07-22-2001, 08:54 AM
btw = by the way

Have you touched hands with people from that school? Do they do wing chun or is it one of those multiple systems schools?

whippinghand
07-22-2001, 04:27 PM
Haven't touched hands with them. Haven't even seen them. But I've heard lots of stories (students that have gone there first before coming to our class). Apparently it's worth an observation.

whippinghand
07-22-2001, 08:08 PM
more the latter.

EmptyCup
07-23-2001, 12:48 AM
so I take it they're not bad? Or "worth an observation" because they are a prime example of what "wrong" Wing Chun is? :)

EmptyCup
07-25-2001, 05:25 AM
Whipping Hand

haha :) So where are there good Wing Chun schools in TO? Is the one you go to good? Maybe I should take a look as I'm not 100% satisfied from where I learn now and could use additional teachers. My dad taught me much more than my current sifu in terms of useable and practical Wing Chun, not to mention correcting me more :)

I wouldn't mind studying under Ho Kam Ming as two students from my school left to train under him...

There's a school downtown at Yonge & College but that's a William Cheung school and Sunny Tang's in Scarborough by Midland & Finch. My friend went there and wasn't too impressed. There's also a Yuen Kay San lineage school by there and a Vunak JKD school taught by Mykoto at Yonge & Bloor. I have another friend who goes to this one but he does weird JKD stuff that I don't think suits me :)

whippinghand
07-25-2001, 05:40 AM
Seek, and ye shall find.

EmptyCup
07-25-2001, 05:51 AM
**** that's a ****ty answer :( And after I typed ALL that out...

whippinghand
07-26-2001, 08:07 AM
What's wrong with where you train now? Can you please clarify?

EmptyCup
07-26-2001, 09:48 AM
I'm pretty happy where I train now but i don't want to stop here. I want to learn from other qualified teachers that might be able to improve my Wing Chun. My teacher understands the concepts and theories well but there is the problem that his fighting experience is limited therefore he teaches many theoretical techniques which I doubt work in reality. They've never worked for me. I want to find a teacher who's used Wing Chun in fights and has changed his teaching to reflect the reality of fighting instead of the theory of what if you got into a fight. Make sense?

whippinghand
07-26-2001, 03:24 PM
There's Wing Chun at the Bloor Jewish Community Centre, Spadina & Bloor. It might be of interest to you.

EmptyCup
07-26-2001, 04:27 PM
Is this a Jewish Wing Chun lineage? ;)

So what do you not understand about my message? Besides the fact that I'm missing a few commas, what about the content do you not understand?

whippinghand
07-26-2001, 05:14 PM
Don't you know me by now?

EmptyCup
07-27-2001, 04:09 AM
I think I was beginning to like you ;)

wingchunwsl
07-29-2001, 11:36 PM
i'm thinking about making one. i heard you could fill it up with dry peas or bb's. what do you guys think? what would you use to hold everything together? a pillow case? :confused: help needed.

EmptyCup
07-30-2001, 12:16 AM
Most people I know buy theirs...canvas ones stuffed with plastic bits.

You could use peas or beans but you'd have to change them every so often as they get crushed :)

You'd be better off using bbs (expensive) or small plastic bits (cheaper). You could construct one using canvas cloth and triple sewing it shut around the filling. Or, for fancier stuff, add a zipper so you can remove or change the filling in future if you need to.

Sihing73
07-30-2001, 12:40 AM
Hello,

Actually the use of Mung Beans is often the first filler. These beans are supposed to be broken and replaced. The Mung Beans actually give off a substance which is beneficial to the hands and acts as kind of a "medicine" which interacts with the Jow to help condition the hands. After this one progresses to gravel/pebbles and then to steel shot.

If you find the cost of the Mung Beans prohibative you can substitute them with rice and then work your way up to gravle/pebbles and steel shot. Never used plastic pellets so I am not sure what benefits they would give you. I guess it owuld be comparable to rice.

If you can I would opt for the beans and them moving up from there. Over time you will condition your hands and the beans are a known substance while the others are not as well known as to their long term effects.

Peace,

Dave

[Censored]
07-30-2001, 12:47 AM
I used sand, cheap and plentiful at the local playground. :)

EmptyCup
07-30-2001, 12:48 AM
I'm confused...are you talking about using the beans themselves as conditioners? or for sandbag fillers? How can the bean secretions be beneficial to the hands if they are inside a punching bag? The texture is almost identical to plastic bits...

wingchunwsl
07-30-2001, 01:13 AM
if i were to buy one, how much would it cost? where could i find one? what do you guys think... actually buying one or making it yourself?

Sihing73
07-30-2001, 01:18 AM
Hi Empty Cup,

It works like this;

If you ever did Iron Palm and used the internal method it would be to strike a bag filled with different things, one being Mung Beans at one stage. The hands striking the canvas surface would cause small abrasions, the secretions from the beans would seep through the canvas and make contact with the hands. This is one reason for the beans being used as they are supposed to break and do this secretion.

The external method would be to strike the beans directly with nothing in between your hands and the beans. Later you use gravle and then steel shot. If you think the canvas covering keeps things from coming into contact with your hands then use lead shot as the filler in a canvas bag. This would or could lead to lead poisoning as the lead would seep through the bag and cause damage. Obviously I am just using this as an illustration and would not reccomment using lead shot. :(

Sand works too but is a harder substance and does not allow for the gradual developement of the hands.

Peace,

Dave

Sharky
07-30-2001, 03:22 AM
i went to the local store to get sand, and i was overwhelmed by how many different types of sand there are! what do i use, that kiddies sand?

another thing is that i have a 3 sectioned thing. if i fill it with sand won't it be *really* heavy? there are 4 holes at the top but i don't want the bag to rip.

now, i don't want to appear really thick, but how do you attach the **** thing to the wall? there are 4 holes as i said, so have you got 4 hooks or something?

doh gotta go,

thanks

Edd

My anus is superior™

whippinghand
07-30-2001, 07:59 PM
... not to be played with, and does not necessarily use sand.

Shadowboxer
07-30-2001, 09:37 PM
I had my sihing buy me a canvas bag for $10-the kind with 3 holes at the top with circular metal fasteners to prevent ripping. Fill with sand. Hang on a nail. Punch,punch,punch.....

BeiKongHui
07-30-2001, 10:38 PM
What kind of gravel do people use?

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

PHILBERT
07-30-2001, 11:00 PM
It is about 6 inches long, has 8 sides and red (looks like a stop sign, but smaller). It has a white zipper, and is full of metal bb's. I spent $40 on it. I then put it in a plastic bag (when I punched it, I had a tendency to open the zipper up, spilling them) so I could keep the bb's from falling out. The bag weighs about 15.5 lbs. (I put it on an electronic scale). I bought it at a martial arts supply shop. The lady forgot she even owned it. I found it hidden behind one of the glass cases with some swords and statues around it.

PHILBERT

[Censored]
07-31-2001, 01:37 AM
I also have one of the rectangular canvas bags with the reinforced holes. I considered using cat litter instead of sand (a bit softer?), but I don't know where to find free (clean) cat litter.

I originally had it mounted on a board with four hooks. The hooks all bent, and the reinforcing snaps all fell off of the bag. Now I have it mounted in front of my dummy, with a rope loop and two metal S brackets in the outer holes. The sand bunches up a bit when I put it on, but flattens out after a few punches. Removing the bag and replacing the arms is quick and easy. Hope this is helpful.

wtsihing
07-31-2001, 06:55 AM
"traditional" chun bags are 3 sectioned (upper, mid, lower) and can be found in most martial arts magazine ads (sumwhere). i find that (unpopped) popping corn works well as wall bag filler. (haven't tried the popped popping corn as filler yet. keep eatin' it before i get a chance to put it in the bag).

Slayer
08-16-2001, 09:56 AM
You should go in this order with the bag, first beans, sand, the steal shot.

sllor
08-16-2001, 01:36 PM
I bought my 3 section bag for £15. filled with sand which i acquired from the beach

IronFist
09-04-2001, 09:02 AM
coke bottles filled with sand? Do you mean plastic coke bottles? Because glass ones wouldn't make a difference if they were filled with sand or not.

OdderMensch
09-04-2001, 10:00 AM
they'd be heavier.
Still sounds like a dumb thing to do.

Plastic would be safer too, but "safe" is soo relative when bashing yourself in the shins.
ouch.

kungfu cowboy
09-04-2001, 10:44 AM
I think it was actually Pepsi.

chi-kwai
09-04-2001, 02:20 PM
Think if he used Diet Dr. Pepper, it would do less damage? Maybe he just likes to take the Pepsi challenge.

--
chi kwai

kungfu cowboy
09-04-2001, 09:04 PM
Could be, could be.

Sharky
09-05-2001, 03:47 AM
"I'm sure Ron knows the guys you mentioned (or at least has met them). He went on a trip out to Ohio a couple of years ago to hang out with Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and Tui Shing Tin"

Bet that was a boring trip.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

kungfu cowboy
09-05-2001, 03:54 AM
No way, dude! I heard they did some mad disco dancing at the clubs, then tore it up at the strip joint!!

kungfu cowboy
09-17-2001, 04:01 AM
Here they are getting ready for a night out on the town:


http://www.komudokwan.com/images/wingchun/wingchun/WCmikeandi.jpg


Codenames: Salz and Pffeffer

Sharky
09-17-2001, 05:02 AM
roffle

"You can't see it if you blind but we will always prevail (true)/Life is like the open sea, the truth is the wind in our sail/And in the end, our names is on the lips of dying men/If ever crushed in the earth, we always rise again/When the words of lying men sound lush like the sound of a violin/The truth is there, it's just the heart you gotta find it in" - Talib Kweli

sunkuen
09-17-2001, 05:06 AM
lol :D

stuff
07-02-2002, 08:29 PM
so what kind of beans should I fill my wall bag with?

kung fu stuff

old jong
07-02-2002, 08:35 PM
Libbys?...:D

kungfu cowboy
07-02-2002, 09:02 PM
I use c0ckroaches and beetles.

TjD
07-02-2002, 09:21 PM
jumping beans! then you can work on your accuracy while your back moves around the wall :)

seriously tho i think theres some kinda bean that helps your hand heal? i remember reading some post on it, you should search

we use sand in ours

stuff
07-02-2002, 10:00 PM
will the wall bag also help develop short range power or is it just for structure?

IronFist
07-02-2002, 11:11 PM
I think that bean that heals your hand is called mung beans. Wing Lam puts them in their level 1 iron palm and iron body bags. Unfortunately, I don't know where to find any.

Personally, I filled my wallbag with baseballs. Just kidding. I think I used kidney beans.

I wonder how certain beans could help heal your hand... do they seep through the bag material or something?

IronFist

kungfu cowboy
07-02-2002, 11:12 PM
I think it develops both power and structure.

TjD
07-02-2002, 11:12 PM
goto your local indian food store and you should be able to find mung beans :)

they taste good too!

Mithrandir
07-03-2002, 01:46 AM
Why not try using sand? I found that it works great.



Mithrandir

Mr Punch
07-03-2002, 01:57 AM
It only takes about two or three cans to fill your bag too, but they might not do your hands any good!

A word of caution on using beans. Make sure that the bag is hung in a permanently dry place, or you'll probably wind up hosting a host of moulds and KFC's bugs to punch! Of course, if you hand varnish each one you should be ok.

stuartm
07-03-2002, 06:19 AM
Dried peas

Tainan Mantis
07-03-2002, 06:59 AM
Hitting the bag generates internal heat according to MA traditional medicine.
Green beans are a cooling bean.
Cats like to go pee pee on bags with green beans so don't keep your bag around cats.

Of interesting note:
When someone has a cold they won't eat anything with green beans as it makes the body "colder".

gnugear
07-03-2002, 07:32 AM
I use sand.

red5angel
07-03-2002, 08:04 AM
As an interesting aside, a cheap alternative to the sandbag is a phone book! You wrap it in tape and some rope wo you can hang it and wallah!

old jong
07-03-2002, 08:19 AM
You mean "Voil"?...;) Good idea!
Another is to simply buy a bag of uncooked rice at the grocery store,tape it loosely and wallah!...Sorry!...Voil!;)

red5angel
07-03-2002, 08:43 AM
LOL! sorry voila! you french speaking guys and your crazy language.... ;)

old jong
07-03-2002, 09:29 AM
LOL!...I'm sure you guys are very forgiving with my english! :eek:

red5angel
07-03-2002, 09:40 AM
Actualy your english has been excelent as far as I have noticed!

gnugear
07-03-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
As an interesting aside, a cheap alternative to the sandbag is a phone book! You wrap it in tape and some rope wo you can hang it and wallah!

OMG!! I used to do that too!:)

Phone book with lots of duck tape.

old jong
07-03-2002, 10:14 AM
"Actualy your english has been excelent as far as I have noticed!"

...Meri beaucoups!...But you should hear the accent!!!:eek:

red5angel
07-03-2002, 10:28 AM
Gnugear - mayeb we got our info from the same source?

Old Jong - not to worry its not so thick from here! ;)

sunkuen
07-03-2002, 10:30 AM
LOL@ "Wallah"

See the look on ken Chung's face when he found out you know who was a grandstudent!!!.....J/K you know who!!!


Just click the link below and "Wallah" lol lol lol

http://www.wingchun.com/img/camp98_9.jpg

I agree with whoever said to use mung beans.

stuff
07-03-2002, 11:00 AM
thanx for the responses guys

kung fu stuff

Alpha Dog
07-03-2002, 11:22 AM
the guy on the right, that is julian lennon; on the left, cheech marin -- who's the guy in the middle? he's looking a little green around the gills...

Grendel
07-04-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by sunkuen

See the look on Ken Chung's face when he found out you know who was a grandstudent!!!.....J/K you know who!!!

LOL! Grandstudent. :)


Just click the link below and "Wallah" lol lol lol

http://www.wingchun.com/img/camp98_9.jpg



The photo of Ken with two men doing chi sao is probably of him feeling for the right degree of relaxation in the wrist of the man on the left (Yoda). :)

BTW, the two men in the photo have very good elbow positioning and distance by my reckoning as a student of Ken's.

I agree with whoever said to use mung beans. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with Mung beans for their medicinal properties if you're just beginning, but I prefer beach sand whose particles have rounded edges to slide past other particles for a good feel.

Another variation on wall bags, is to cover it with leather and strike the leather for a more realistic feeling of punching a body.

Regards and "Wallah," :)

sunkuen
07-04-2002, 10:43 PM
You sure it aint a threeway!!!


Get your mind outta the gutter , I was talking about chisau!!!

Grendel
07-06-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by sunkuen
You sure it aint a threeway!!!

Get your mind outta the gutter , I was talking about chisau!!!

Sunkuen,

If it were a picture of Red5, his teacher, and Carl, you'd be right to ask. R5A is surely excited at the thought with only two inches between his knees.
:)

Aren't you gettin' any these days? Chi sao, that is. :)

Wingman
07-07-2002, 06:28 PM
Sand is OK as long as it doesn't get wet. Wet sand settles at the bottom of the wallbag. When the sand dries up, it hardens.

Phenix_Eye
09-20-2002, 05:46 PM
I got myself a Wall bag. Any suggestions on how much to fill it?

Martial Joe
09-20-2002, 09:57 PM
I filled mine up with rice...I am not looking to make my hands tough but im looking for power in my punches. I know that wasnt your question but whatever.

I filled mine up about half way so the bottom is filed...that the only place i hit.


Theres your answer buddy.

AndrewS
09-20-2002, 10:23 PM
I prefer a pack of mid to large size beans, and think that's an especially good idea for beginners. Beans are a softer pack than rice, and you're less likely to damage your hands if you're doing 1000s of punches a day.

Harder packs (rice, sand) may have some conditioning effect, and teach you not to let force come back into you, but if you do serious volume and hit with power, some force will go back into you and start to damage your joints over time. Hence my preference for a looser pack.

Later,

Andrew

IRONMONK
09-21-2002, 04:31 AM
Hi Andrew,

When u punch the wall bag u get force coming back into u-how do u prevent this i.e how do u train ur punch so that that no force comes back into u?
i find i lose my balance especially when i try to fully extend the punch -u got any tips on training against the wall bag?
p.s i got ur email-im glad u liked the article.When puching from Iras stance with a foward step(weight on back leg) does the spine lifting motion happen just before u punch or at the same time?

regards,

Faze.

AndrewS
09-21-2002, 09:29 AM
Hi Faze,

I train the wall bag a bunch of different ways (and actually don't use it that much any more).

Some range stuff- I generally hit the wallbag from a distance between my elbow just off my body and my elbow one hand's distance off my body (long ways). I'll also do rounds pressing a pad against the wall beneath the bag with my lead leg, sitting back deep to work my knee pressure.

'Not letting force come back into you' is kinda like throwing the punch and putting its force on for a very brief period- before you do that you have a stance you need to fix if you're feeling off-balance when you hit the bag. When you hit the bag, press it with the punch, slightly up while pulling your shoulder down and back- basically pushing with the elbow in two directions at once. The 'down and back' will get force into your body. Use the force that goes into your body to press you into your feet, so you feel each punch push you into the ground. Try the same thing with a friend leaning into your fists. If you friend can move away suddenly without you loosing your balance forward (a constant refinement, not falling on your face is a good first goal, but this is a constant improvement thing, always trying to get more relaxed and stable), then you're on the right track.

Once you can do the above, then start to worry about not letting force come back into you. For the moment, let the force come back, and use the bag to improve your stance.

The spine thing- I've seen several ways to do this from people I respect in a variety of phazes of motion. No matter which you do, it must to allow you to maintain a balanced line down to the ground capable of taking pressure at all times. Honestly, work on the stuff above and don't mess with the spine too much without someone who *well* knows what they're doing to show you.. I played around on my own a lot early in my training, and am just now really leaving some of those bad habits behind.

Thanks again for the article,

Andrew

IRONMONK
09-25-2002, 11:24 AM
Andrew,

Thank you for ur reply-i have been playing around with this but i am not sure about one thing u wrote:

"When you hit the bag, press it with the punch, slightly up"

the way that i punch against a wall bag is to hit with the surface of the three fingers and loose fist and puching straight through.When i lift the punch up i find that i am scraping my fist and the pressure is on the the lower knuckle -am i doing this wrong maybe i misinterpret what u mean by "lifting the punch" can u please clarify further.

However when i do this with a palm strike i lift the strike by hitting with my heel upwards(which feels more comfortable) i do find by lifting upward my stance feels more stable!!!

Also is this the actual motion u do when u punch some one i.e punch upwards with shoulder pulled back and down-or is this a drill to improve my stance and handle force coming back to me?

I hope u dont mind me asking too many qeustions - i will ask my instructor about this as well!!!

Regards,

faze.

AndrewS
09-25-2002, 02:46 PM
Hi Faze,

that pinky knuckle thing- that's the 'bite' the icing on the cake that comes of pulling the wrist up. It digs in and some folks swear by it, but I don't make a whole lot of it, and wouldn't sweat it now. From what you're telling me, you're using your forearm to push up (at the wrist) with the punch- something you can't do with the palm, hence you get the stance feel better with the palm. Try to translate that feel back into your punch, and hold your wrist on the punch as if you were leaning against a wall, using your fist for support. Oh yeah, try to get your force on the second from bottom knuckle- you'll be a bit safer that way.

This is one way to punch, and the first way I've generally seen people shown to punch- wedging from down to up. You hit to make yourself more stable and 'uproot' the other guy. Of course, any force which 'uproots' isn't doing damage . . .

Later,

Andrew

IRONMONK
09-27-2002, 01:19 PM
Andrew,


Thanx for the tips and the punching drill from the other post(hip twist) - i will be practising and playing about with this stuff for a while!!!!

Regards,

Faze.

AndrewS
09-27-2002, 01:46 PM
Faze,

you're welcome; I'm just paying back the folks who've done the same for me at with various things. Play with it, work on it, and in afew years, when it becomes yours, help someone else make it their's, if that makes sense.

Later and have fun,

Andrew

P.S. The hip thing- basically it comes from very aggressively finishing your step, when the front foot lands, the back comes up *instantly*. Throughout the whole thing you should be able to take pressure to the chest without leaning and feel it in your back foot- but play with that in a few months, once you've worked on some other stuff a bit.

Phenix_Eye
10-14-2002, 04:45 AM
What sort of beans do you put in the wall bag and where do you get them from. Chinese supermarket?

old jong
10-14-2002, 05:16 AM
No Lybby's! ;)
No magic in that bag, anything uncook will be fine.

danny james1
10-14-2002, 09:20 AM
Chick peas are supposed to be a popular choice,but it will cost you to fill a three section wall bag.
i filled one with builders sand once cause i was to tight to fork out for the peas,sand ends up getting everywhere.
i just use a heavy hanging bag now.

gnugear
10-14-2002, 08:30 PM
I use sand.

Now that the weather is changing, the bag is picking up some moisture and it's getting pretty solid! Oh well, it keeps me from trying to punch so hard.

Sharp Phil
12-19-2002, 08:42 AM
Immortal USA makes a neat little canvas bag I picked up recently to use for training chain punches.

The review is here. (http://www.philelmore.com/martial/punchingbag.htm)

tparkerkfo
12-19-2002, 10:01 AM
Any reason you like this bag over any others?

Tom
________
Suzuki t series (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_T_series)

Sharp Phil
12-19-2002, 10:58 AM
I haven't tested any other bags of this type, but this one is quite nice. It's a convenient size, seems well made, and is actually kind of visually attractive to boot.

EnterTheWhip
12-21-2002, 11:20 AM
When punching a wall bag or any other surface repetitively, do you ever get those red spots in between your knuckles?

PHILBERT
12-21-2002, 01:40 PM
Yes.

TjD
12-21-2002, 02:14 PM
isnt that just the skin being stretched because of the impact? thats what it looks like to me

cobra
12-21-2002, 02:48 PM
yep!!

EnterTheWhip
12-22-2002, 10:02 PM
Try Leung Ting WingTsun, you'll like it!!
I like chocolate cake too. That doesn't mean it's good for me.

TjD
12-23-2002, 12:08 AM
that was the best thing i've heard all day :D

yuanfen
12-23-2002, 04:48 PM
:D :D :D

EnterTheWhip
12-24-2002, 09:01 PM
When you develop the red marks between your knuckles, is it from "chain punching" or individual punches?

cha kuen
12-24-2002, 09:08 PM
Yup and I put some Dit Tat Jow after!

**wing chun books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

TjD
12-25-2002, 01:05 AM
an individual punch will do it, chain punches do it worse

Miles Teg
12-25-2002, 08:54 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try Leung Ting WingTsun, you'll like it!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my case:

Tried it
Liked it
Found something else
Liked it more

yuanfen
12-26-2002, 12:24 PM
Phil- that is a nice looking wall bag on that site. A bag doent have to be a fancy thing- but that one does look nice. Not much comment on the Ayn Rand stuff. Fountainhead was a good novel- and I saw the movie too. Dont want to stray too much on a wing chun list.
Rand was good for a novel and maybe one essay. After that- it soon runs to shrill dogmatism and incomplete as a philosophy.
Its good as an argument for creativity rather than conformity and
a critique of blind statism....then dribbles away beyond that...
Interestingly, I spent Christmas in a town a ways from Tempe
called ANTHEM...its main road called Freedom Way. Some of its residents probably have little idea of the symbolic connection to Rand....or the meaning of freedom. Possibly a promoter or a developer was/is a Rand fan.

All in all a nice bag anyway.

Klasanov
12-31-2002, 01:11 AM
Most often happens when I punch hard, hard surfaces like walls, than a wallbag filled with rice.

But man is the sound of my hands pounding that wallbag not music to my ears, then I have no idea what is

rubthebuddha
12-31-2002, 09:57 AM
i noticed that when i get the red stuff from doing wall bag work, it was from not punching as straight as possible. some call this bicycling or pistoning, but it's where you're punching straight in front of you, but your hand makes an arc as you extend. this can cause the knuckles to drag slightly downward as they contact the bag instead of drive straight into them.

[Censored]
12-31-2002, 12:30 PM
When punching a wall bag or any other surface repetitively, do you ever get those red spots in between your knuckles?

I don't. If it bothers you, try a stiffer bag.

yuanfen
12-31-2002, 12:50 PM
Given my complexion- red doesnt happen very often fortunately
me thinks. Yuanfen!

Joy C.

rubthebuddha
12-31-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by yuanfen
Given my complexion- red doesnt happen very often fortunately
me thinks.
CHEATER! :mad:

william
09-10-2004, 03:50 AM
I friend of mine has just got back from a trip where he and his friends had a scuffle with some of the locals at their holiday destination.

He said he was lucky and dispite getting a bit of a beating from the local police and a few cuts, he and his friends got off relatively unscaved.

He is quite a big guy (works at a gym) but has no training of a fighting nature, he said he managed to get one of the guys square in the face with a beauty, which sent him to his knees (after which he got an eye full of pepper spray from the police!)

I have also seen him break machine records on those fairground punching machines, basically the guy naturally seems to have quite a punch on him!

I so I come home and look at my wing chun puch in the mirror, and it looks pretty pathetic!

Unfortunately due to my small flat (and unwilling girlfriend) a heavy puch bag is not an option, so I figure a wall bag is the way to go. However as I am renting the flat I have to pay a damage deposite, I am worried that a wall bag may damage the walls?

Does anyone have any tips on damage free punching power enhancing equipment?, or any general advice on how to improve punching power?

Many thanks

W

Ish
09-10-2004, 04:54 AM
If put up well a wall bag can be used with great results and no more damage to the wall than a couple of holes. I've had one up in my garage for a few years and there's no damage been done at all.

If u get a 3 section bag u can also use it for improving your kicking power.

Sihing73
09-10-2004, 05:13 AM
Hello,

I would tend to concentrate on the proper structure of my punch first. The wallbag is, IMHO, better used to perfect technique and structure than for the developement of power. I think you will find that punching with full extension, while training in application never fully extend, will develope power just as fast if not faster than using the wall bag. Use the wallbag to train correct placement and for slight conditioning of the knuckles for contact.

Going off of the WC track for a moment; you can go out and get a bicycle inner tube and use that to provide resistance to your punch. You need to be adjust the punch slightly but this could be one of the least expensive and certainly least damaging alternatives for your flat ;) . You will find that this also helps to train the actual technique and will help to reinforce proper structure as well.

Peace,

Dave

stonecrusher69
09-10-2004, 06:16 AM
A couple of things I do to develope my punch is. I do nuckle push-up on a two by four onthe last to nuckles,and also you can do just air punching and stepping and puching drills.

AmanuJRY
09-10-2004, 08:52 AM
I would get 1 inch thick plywood and put it up on the wall behind the wall bag. If you can damage the wall through that, you have a dammn good punch.

CFT
09-10-2004, 09:16 AM
What about those standing punch bags with a weighted base (usually sand filled by the owner)? I've seen them advertised but haven't used one.

AmanuJRY
09-10-2004, 09:20 AM
Century has one called the 'wavemaster'. I don't like it for WC training. Being bottom heavy gives it a weird 'feel' for WC punching. It's ok for WC kicks, great for mid to high level kicking of other MA and for stick training. A wall bag or heavy bag is better IMO.

kj
09-10-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I would get 1 inch thick plywood and put it up on the wall behind the wall bag. If you can damage the wall through that, you have a dammn good punch.

Ditto. That's exactly what I did to help protect the drywall in our finished basement. Straddled the board between two wall studs. Works great.

Regards,
- kj

YongChun
09-10-2004, 11:10 AM
My wife said my wall mounted bag in the garage shook the whole house when students hit it. So now I put two nails in the tree outside and just hand the bag there when it's punching time.

Ray

Stevo
09-14-2004, 04:06 AM
We do a lot of punching practice in my class (mostly with focus mitts), and I do extra punching practice at home (with the wallbag). I think that developing a consistently good punch has to be one of the most important things in Wing Chun, because, after all, what's the point of getting through with Chi Sau skills if you can't rely on delivering a couple of good punches?

I think that one thing the wallbag is good for is helping focus your punches on the same point. That means that you end up punching where you want to punch, and squarely. In other words, if you miss the mark you're aiming for, or hit it at a bit of an angle, it can easily glance off without much power. Aiming is developed further by hitting a focus mitt held by a partner. First stationary, then moving in a straight line away from you, then moving randomly. With the wallbag you can also work on structure, which Sihing73 mentioned. With the wallbag you can work on avoiding any wasted movement in between punches (e.g. pulling your hand down as you retract it), by practising slowly, gradually building up speed over time, hitting the same point and making sure that your arm movements for each punch are perfect. Your wrists should brush each other as one moves back and the other moves forward.

Other things that help are: relaxating the upper body, tensing the fist and wrist only for a split second when you hit the target; keeping the elbow in the centre; getting your body behind it; doing fist pushups.

I also find that the wooden dummy helps develop jing power.

TenTigers
09-15-2004, 07:59 PM
when I used to rent a room, I would go th the park and use bungee cords to tie the wall bag to a large tree-that worked great. I also put it on a chain link fence, which had alot more give for harder penetrating punches. Then I would lay it on a stump and do palm training-until the police came-cause I was doing this at midnite and the neighbors were complaining that some guy was playing basketball in the park-"whack-whack-whack"

Ali Hamad Rahim
09-16-2004, 05:19 AM
try looking at the iron palm thread

ali

Redboat
04-13-2005, 04:03 AM
Where can I buy a traditional leather Wing Chun Wall Bag? THANKS!!!!

stuartm
04-13-2005, 05:30 AM
Are 'traditional' one leather??? Why not buy a plain old canvas one - you are only going to be hitting it at the end of the day??

Punch / strike correctly and rub in some warm grapeseed oil afterwards and your hands will be fine - no need for leather.

Stu

phantom
09-01-2005, 03:43 PM
Kung Lek claims that hitting sand just compacts and feeds all the force back into your hands. Is there other media in a wing chun wallbag like cloth, beads, and other absorbing materials that would allow you to punch it without damaging your hands? I would tend to think so, as it seems to be pretty common for wing chun people to punch sand-filled wallbags with their bare fists. Thanks in advance.

shirkers1
09-01-2005, 03:48 PM
I know that clf uses rocks or pebbles in theirs. Here are the bags at my teachers school. He use to train clf and still utilizes the wall bag in his mantis training.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/knucklejunction101/detail?.dir=2b36&.dnm=ff89.jpg&.src=ph

anerlich
09-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Kung Lek claims that hitting sand just compacts and feeds all the force back into your hands.

If the sand is in a bag, as opposed to in a bucket where it can move around your hand, I guess that's right.

IMO the sand bags are mainly for feedback on correct punching structure, and for progressive hand conditioning. Don't expect to hit them full power constantly and still be able to play the violin or practise neurosurgery.

IMO power development is better practised using softer bags, either hanging or held by a partner, or the dummy (but not with fists).

Supposedly the oldtimers used to train with bags of rice.

One of my instructors was impressed by a visiting HK practitioner who would place a 75 lg back of rice at one end of a wooden table and make it slide off the other end with a single punch

When the rice in the bags had been pulverised by constant pounding, it was allegedly poured out and used to make noodles. Yeccch.

The_Sensei
09-01-2005, 07:36 PM
Kenneth chung, frowns on anything other than sand and he has been practicing for 40 years, without becoming a cripple =)

anerlich
09-01-2005, 10:11 PM
Kenneth chung, frowns on anything other than sand and he has been practicing for 40 years, without becoming a cripple =)

Opinions vary between Sifus, I guess, as does the tolerance of the bones of the hand for impact. My advice came from a senior Australian MA who has also been training for over four decades. Not with the same profile, perhaps, but I'd imagine equivalent skill and knowledge levels.

Does KC hit the wall bag full power all the time? Did he do that when he started out or did he work up to it? What do you do?

stuartm
09-02-2005, 12:37 AM
Hi guys,

For what its worth i tell my students to use dried peas or rice initially, then on to soft sand after 3 months when they understand the basics of the punching structure.

You should be able to hit the bag fairly hard without any long term damage, assuming you form the correct fist shape (surprising how many people still struggle with this) and use your stance efficiently.

What i tell my students never to do is:

a) elbow the bag - the force will be redirected straight into your shoulder
b) kick the bag with power - force will go straight into the lower spine - not good

I was once advised by a former teacher that you could using ball bearings after a while :eek: . IMHO, this is not a great idea unless you want to permanently damage your bones and increase your chances of arthritis.

Ken Chung may have no damage, but he presumably was tauight in a structured manner when he was first learning under LS, and is a pretty big bloke by the looks of it with strong fists. The same rule does not apply to all. If your students have any weaknesses in their hands, they can always wear light bag mitts, or tape their hands the boxing way, focusing the bandages around the weaker areas such as the wrist.

All the best, Stu :)

KPM
09-02-2005, 02:34 AM
Kung Lek claims that hitting sand just compacts and feeds all the force back into your hands. Is there other media in a wing chun wallbag like cloth, beads, and other absorbing materials that would allow you to punch it without damaging your hands? I would tend to think so, as it seems to be pretty common for wing chun people to punch sand-filled wallbags with their bare fists. Thanks in advance.

Dried beans! Mung beans are pretty traditional. I've used just plain old dried black beans and they work fine.

Keith

sunkuen
09-02-2005, 06:37 AM
I heard the really hardcore guys are using cans of baked beans. Libbys deep browners are the best!!!

Fajing
09-02-2005, 09:39 AM
I heard the really hardcore guys are using cans of baked beans. Libbys deep browners are the best!!!


NICCEEE!! :p

nojack
09-02-2005, 10:01 AM
My makiwara striking wall bag is filled with rice, that's good enough for me.

The_Sensei
09-02-2005, 01:12 PM
Opinions vary between Sifus, I guess, as does the tolerance of the bones of the hand for impact. My advice came from a senior Australian MA who has also been training for over four decades. Not with the same profile, perhaps, but I'd imagine equivalent skill and knowledge levels.

Does KC hit the wall bag full power all the time? Did he do that when he started out or did he work up to it? What do you do?


I do a thousand punches at a time, for the first 900 or so I use 1/4 power in a very relaxed state of mind concentrating on sinking into the bag rather then forcing my fist into it and the last 100 I use as much power as I can without rocking. This process usually takes me about 10-12 minutes. I maintain my SLT base the whole time. Eventually you actually crush the sand into even smaller particles and the bag actually becomes like a rock, when that starts to happen change the sand.

Hope it helps friend =)

mexenergy
09-02-2005, 02:21 PM
Ken does hit the bag @ full force. In the beginning it's not suggested because you can tear the skin on your knuckles & then you have to wait for them 2 heal b4 tryin again. Start out light & eventually your hands will become conditioned to strike harder. We practise w/#10 canvas.

kj
09-02-2005, 04:38 PM
Hi Stu,


Ken Chung may have no damage, but he presumably was tauight in a structured manner when he was first learning under LS,

Thankfully for him and for us. :)


and is a pretty big bloke by the looks of it with strong fists.

If you have the opportunity to see and feel for yourself not only his punch but how he produces it, I think it would likely alter your perception of what's happening. If there is anything that Ken literally and figuratively pounds into us, it is to avoid the patent use of strength, punches being no exception. One of his keenest regrets is that the appearance of his physical frame leads to frequent misgivings by casual onlookers. His fists, and arms for that matter, are very relaxed and soft in action.


The same rule does not apply to all.

I'm okay with that as a generalization.

Nonetheless, Ken's punch and my punch distinctly are governed by the same rules. Admittedly, he adheres to those rules a Hades of a lot better than I. ;)


If your students have any weaknesses in their hands, they can always wear light bag mitts, or tape their hands the boxing way, focusing the bandages around the weaker areas such as the wrist.

I have to agree that protection is indeed appropriate with some punching methods. It may even be sage advice to the audience in question. Depending on one's punching methods, respective instruction, and purpose in hitting the sandbag, padding and bandages may be highly appropriate. The method as taught by Ken just doesn't happen to be one of those.

Learning to deliver in a substantial way without damaging your own naked hand, wrist or elbow is one of the purposes in our practice. Punching the stuffing out of the bag is a remote consideration in comparison to others. We are more concerned with such things as learning proper placements, alignments, how to "send" and produce "long and lasting" energy, to allow the bag to fully absorb however much or little we are capable to deliver. The bag also provides us with tactile feedback through the bridge and throughout the entire body structure. Hitting it hard is incidental, and when properly accomplished (by our narrow definition of course, LOL), primarily the result of getting other more fundamental things right.

If someone has a weakness in the form of injury or abnormality, something beyond light protection is probably in order, e.g., some form of remediation or alternative practice. If we (i.e., me and mine) damage our hands or even break skin, we are instructed to lay off the bag until they heal. We are moreover instructed to be careful not to damage them in the first place.

There used to be a clip on the net somewhere of Ken demonstrating his sandbag training. I don't know if it's still out there; if I manage to find it I'll post a link. Naturally some who haven't met him (or someone who performs similarly), will think he's powering the punches with his big guns. :(

Not saying my way is the best way or the only way, rather just to clarify a bit on what we do and offer a little something as to why. Plus it's nice for something to join in on for a change. :)

Regards,
- kj

P.S. mexenergy is correct; Ken does hit the bag full force. Just not in the way that some might presume.

sunkuen
09-02-2005, 05:55 PM
I maintain my SLT base the whole time.

Hope it helps friend =)

This is a fine way to use the bag but if you get a little bored you can (as i'm sure some of you know) throw some footwork into the routine. Stepping into the bag with whatever footwork your Sifu is teaching you and doin' yer little 'straight blast' can be good. Varying degrees of rotation of the fist on the initial (or all) of your punches can also be good. There are other variations but this keep ya busy for now (if you choose to try them).

p.s. this isn't really for you sensei, with that handle i'm sure your already doing these and more.

anerlich
09-03-2005, 02:50 AM
I do a thousand punches at a time, for the first 900 or so I use 1/4 power in a very relaxed state of mind concentrating on sinking into the bag rather then forcing my fist into it and the last 100 I use as much power as I can without rocking. This process usually takes me about 10-12 minutes. I maintain my SLT base the whole time. Eventually you actually crush the sand into even smaller particles and the bag actually becomes like a rock, when that starts to happen change the sand.

So you work up to it slowly, and punch as hard as you can while working on keeping correct structure. Working on correct structure and progressive conditioning, as I suggested.


Hope it helps friend =)

I was asking out of interest on what other practitioners do, not seeking guidance. And I was actually more interested in what Ken himself did, which KJ has answered with her usual excellence. But thanks anyway.

anerlich
09-03-2005, 02:53 AM
Here is what one real wing chun master replied: Well ... clowns have a place in this world.

A statement of which you, my friend, are living proof.

william
03-05-2006, 03:09 AM
I have recently installed a wall bag at home.

Was wondering if anyone would care to share some techniques they practice or wall bag training regimes?

Or some good things to practice, and perhaps somethings to be cautious of?

Any techs to practice or advice would be much appreciated,

W

Fajing
03-05-2006, 09:07 AM
I have recently installed a wall bag at home.

Was wondering if anyone would care to share some techniques they practice or wall bag training regimes?

Or some good things to practice, and perhaps somethings to be cautious of?

Any techs to practice or advice would be much appreciated,

W


Punching :D It's good to try and get closer to the wall bag as your arms, knuckles, punching power, technique develops. You certainly want to increase your power at a closer range. MAKE SURE you don't hang your bag on a wall space with no support beams behind it. :p You can practice punches, chops, elbows, palm strikes...whatever works for you. Should help toughen the skin and increase striking power if you work at it regularly. ;) Safer than punching a Mook Jong! :eek:

Phil Redmond
03-05-2006, 11:48 AM
Wall bags are OK but you need to hit something that you can issue your force into that moves. Too much training on a wall bag can hinder your issuance of force since the bag is against a........wall. ;)
(waiting for the rebuttals :D)
Phil

DRleungjan
03-05-2006, 12:18 PM
Wall bags are OK but you need to hit something that you can issue your force into that moves. Too much training on a wall bag can hinder your issuance of force since the bag is against a........wall. ;)
(waiting for the rebuttals :D)
Phil

Hey Phil....I can agree with the above to an extent. But then again to really train Wing Chun the correct way would require a nice little gym and not many of us can have the luxury of such. You know...wall bags, a muk jong, punching bags,....etc. Or am I totally wrong? Hmmm...good question...what would be everyday things that one would do to enhance the above? :confused:


DRleungjan :)

fiamacho
03-05-2006, 02:15 PM
Hmmm...good question...what would be everyday things that one would do to enhance the above? :confused:
DRleungjan :)

Get a standard A4 piece of paper, draw a rather small black dot about the size of lets say this smily :D , tie a piece of string to it and attach it to your ceiling, hang it so that it is at your punching height and then start punching towards the black dot.

Whilst punching start shadow boxing with the piece of paper, this really helps to get the feet moving, it gets your techniques flowing and like I said the biggest winner is that your footwark gets throughly trained, I would do this for 20 minutes fast, medium and slow speeds.

I also recommend eye exercises for 5 minutes and the crunching up of paper. Stand there with both arms fully raised and fully extended out from your sides at shoulder height, with a sheet of newspaper in both hands between your thumb and index finger start screwing them up slowely, until they become ball like.

This is great for the forearms, fingers and triceps.

Liddel
03-05-2006, 08:38 PM
Hey william,

This is just one action to isolate and practice one aspect of your VT punch with the wall bag....

Touch your fist to the bag and press in with the bottom two knuckles as if your punching with just the wrist, maintain contact with the bag.

Re-set your fist back square and press again. The action isolates the force from the wrist in a hinge type motion which through repeditive training will increase your inch power.

This combined with other types of punching training such as elbow strengthening and a good pivot/turn will increase the sharpness of your punch.

Keng Geng
03-14-2006, 12:48 PM
Why did you purchase a wall bag? In your mind what purpose does it serve you?

william
03-15-2006, 04:25 AM
I purchased the wall bag, as my current accomodation does not permit a heavy bag or something of that size.

Mainly because I feel it is important to actually hit something. This will allow me to increase the variety of my training at home. rather than being restricted to punching the air.

W

Liddel
03-15-2006, 02:39 PM
If you want to increase your punch but dont have the space, purchase some focus mits and rope a friend into training at home with you, you'll get better results than having a wall bag because focus mits are more versitile.

But then again if you want to train at anytime then i guess you have to make do with the wall bag.

Keng Geng
03-15-2006, 06:07 PM
Just make sure you have really good posture and stance when hitting the wall bag. Don't forget there's no give on it, like a heavy bag. Punch lightly, but with a tight tight fist or you'll get those red marks between your knuckles. Red between knuckles = bad punch.

Amp
03-15-2006, 08:50 PM
Stand close.

Hit hard.

Repeat.

bcbernam777
03-16-2006, 04:35 AM
Stand close.

Hit hard.

Repeat.


haha thats the ticket

Liddel
03-16-2006, 09:13 PM
Some people miss the point of an opening SLT action.

After huen sau, sau kuen the elbow comes back with the fists at nipple level to keep the chest flat - face to face -

Face away from the wall bag and bring your elbow back to hit the bag.

Repeat.

Do this every day - I pitty the fool who grabs you from behind :D

P.S excellent call AMP. i feel sorry for his neighbours though ;)

Yoshiyahu
06-09-2009, 03:35 PM
I moved into an apartment about three years ago. Since then I can not do any wall bag training. I stay on second floor. I have neighbors to left of me, right of me and below me and above me. I would love to hit the wall bag for conditioning but the vibrations would carry through the thin walls. I was woundering if you guys have a solution to problem.

To make up for my lack of wall bag practice I hit trees and sometimes I go to a friends house with a leather punching bag. But its not the same I feel. So what are some solutions to the problem. How can I get wall bag training?

What are some solutions you guys know if?

anerlich
06-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Move somewhere else.

Lucas
06-09-2009, 03:49 PM
I moved into an apartment about three years ago. Since then I can not do any wall bag training. I stay on second floor. I have neighbors to left of me, right of me and below me and above me. I would love to hit the wall bag for conditioning but the vibrations would carry through the thin walls. I was woundering if you guys have a solution to problem.

To make up for my lack of wall bag practice I hit trees and sometimes I go to a friends house with a leather punching bag. But its not the same I feel. So what are some solutions to the problem. How can I get wall bag training?

What are some solutions you guys know if?

have you considered free standing makiwara?

Wu Wei Wu
06-09-2009, 04:03 PM
wall bags??? hitting trees???

What attributes are you looking to develop?

Suki

Yoshiyahu
06-09-2009, 04:24 PM
have you considered free standing makiwara?

Excellent idea...excuse my ignorance. But don't you need to dig a hole in the ground for the free standing ones so they don't fall or bolt them into the floot with nails...I live in a apartment....

TenTigers
06-09-2009, 04:33 PM
use bungee cords to attach it to a tree or pole at the park or woods. Goes up and takes down in seconds. and you're set.

Keep the bag in your car and wherever you go, you can play.

Lucas
06-09-2009, 09:52 PM
depending on your resources you can bolt it to a base. two by fours plywood and weights will keep it in place. use a steel brace to bolt the post onto the base.

Almost A Ghost
06-10-2009, 07:52 AM
use bungee cords to attach it to a tree or pole at the park or woods. Goes up and takes down in seconds. and you're set.

Keep the bag in your car and wherever you go, you can play.

+1

I use to do that with an old belt and tree in the apartment complex I use to live in. There was a great flat area on the tree where a huge branch use to be that was just the right height.

TenTigers
06-10-2009, 08:01 AM
yep- I used to take mine to the park at night and train. They had these posts, made from phone poles (or similar) about thigh height separating the parking area from the park. I would lay the bag on it and do my palm training. Then I would bungee it to a tree or pole and do my wall bag stuff. Then I would bungee it to the baseball backstop and work ping choy-it gave a bit, so I could dig into it more.
The neighbors called the police complaining there was some guy playing basketball at 1am-they heard my palms on the bag and thought it was bouncing a ball. Had to find another park.
You are only limited by your imagination, and will to succeed..

chusauli
06-10-2009, 09:35 AM
I'd say bring some nails, a hammer, your wall bag and find a large tree in the park and set up shop there.

Rik, I'd say your bungee cord thing is something I never thought of. Great idea!

In the Yik Kam WCK I learned from Hendrik, palm striking inverted or everted corners of a wall is used in lieu of the wallbag. It is also a great method.

Mr Punch
06-10-2009, 08:20 PM
use bungee cords to attach it to a tree or pole at the park or woods. Goes up and takes down in seconds. and you're set.

Keep the bag in your car and wherever you go, you can play.Nice!


yep- I used to take mine to the park at night and train. They had these posts, made from phone poles (or similar) about thigh height separating the parking area from the park. I would lay the bag on it and do my palm training. Then I would bungee it to a tree or pole and do my wall bag stuff. Then I would bungee it to the baseball backstop and work ping choy-it gave a bit, so I could dig into it more.
The neighbors called the police complaining there was some guy playing basketball at 1am-they heard my palms on the bag and thought it was bouncing a ball. Had to find another park.
You are only limited by your imagination, and will to succeed..Nah, you're also limited by neighbours, police and structural damage as noted! :D

Always use a tree, unless you've got a solid pole (not hollow) away from any residences.


I'd say bring some nails, a hammer, your wall bag and find a large tree in the park and set up shop there....Not nice! :eek: As a former part-time landscape gardener, enivironmentalist and qualified forester... do not go round randomly nailing **** onto trees! :mad:

Bungees or ropes are much better.


In the Yik Kam WCK I learned from Hendrik, palm striking inverted or everted corners of a wall is used in lieu of the wallbag. It is also a great method.Don't get it... what's an everted/inverted corner of a wall?!

I have used my door frame in my flat before. It's usually solid enough not to cause major vibrations and noise.

CFT
06-11-2009, 01:07 AM
The internal and external corners of a wall - or rather where 2 walls meet.
Would be interested to hear what you would do.

I have used door frames too.

Hardwork108
06-15-2009, 02:38 PM
I moved into an apartment about three years ago. Since then I can not do any wall bag training. I stay on second floor. I have neighbors to left of me, right of me and below me and above me. I would love to hit the wall bag for conditioning but the vibrations would carry through the thin walls. I was woundering if you guys have a solution to problem.

To make up for my lack of wall bag practice I hit trees and sometimes I go to a friends house with a leather punching bag. But its not the same I feel. So what are some solutions to the problem. How can I get wall bag training?

What are some solutions you guys know if?

Perhaps when you are in your apartment you can put the bag on a firm surface and practise your strikes horizontally. This type of training has its benefits as well. In the Siu lam lineage we hit the bags (as well as the sand bowl) in this way. It may also be easier to cushion the impact/vibrations as not to disturb the people living downstairs.

As far as makiwaras go then yes the vibrations may give your neighbours a lot of headache not to mention that some of them can be very LOUD! :)

Mr Punch
06-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Nice idea HW!

Hadn't thought of that and I really think the original question was someone who wanted to do some vertical training... but lateral thinking does work as well! :D

At least one line of Yip Man does this training too: my friend from Lo Man Kam's school showed me how to 'strike' down (well, mroe like directed falling) and schooled me in how it isn't going down but is actually using relxaed power to shoot out in application. It was very helpful and I still do that kind of training quite a lot. Never used a bag, though, just a hard picnic table!

Hardwork108
06-16-2009, 12:13 AM
Nice idea HW!

Hadn't thought of that and I really think the original question was someone who wanted to do some vertical training... but lateral thinking does work as well! :D

At least one line of Yip Man does this training too: my friend from Lo Man Kam's school showed me how to 'strike' down (well, mroe like directed falling) and schooled me in how it isn't going down but is actually using relxaed power to shoot out in application. It was very helpful and I still do that kind of training quite a lot. Never used a bag, though, just a hard picnic table!

The way I was taught was to hit the bag consecutively using different parts of the hand and always using the same combinations, of course using relaxed dropping strikes. An example of such striking would be a palm strike followed by a back hand strike, then a back fist strike, then a hammer fist strike, then a yin fist strike, then a yang fist strike and to finish with, we sometimes use a vertical dropping elbow strike. Other combinatios are used as well and sometimes include leopard fist and Tiger Claw (which manifests itself in the latter stages of the Siu Lam lineage).

Whatever sequence one decides to use is repeated until all movements flow and it all turns into a type of forms practice. Breathing is also plays a significant role in how this exercise is carried out, as at one level this type of practice can be a chi kung exercise. Of course I also use dit dat jow when doing such exercises.

We don't hit solid objects. I am not saying that it is wrong as I have seen this type of training in other genuine martial arts. In our case hitting the sand bag or indeed the sand bowl trains one(among other things) to sink his fist/energy through this material and get good at it through regular practice.

Do you hit the sand bowl? If not then I recommend this exercise. I am about to buy and set up a sand bowl for my new apartment. We do this exercise while sitting in a traditional horse stance rather than any Wing Chun stance and as always the exercise is regarded a waste of time without the correct breathing.

sanjuro_ronin
06-16-2009, 06:09 AM
I moved into an apartment about three years ago. Since then I can not do any wall bag training. I stay on second floor. I have neighbors to left of me, right of me and below me and above me. I would love to hit the wall bag for conditioning but the vibrations would carry through the thin walls. I was woundering if you guys have a solution to problem.

To make up for my lack of wall bag practice I hit trees and sometimes I go to a friends house with a leather punching bag. But its not the same I feel. So what are some solutions to the problem. How can I get wall bag training?

What are some solutions you guys know if?

Does your apartment have a stairwell ??
*hint, hint*

Yoshiyahu
06-17-2009, 07:47 PM
Does your apartment have a stairwell ??
*hint, hint*

yes but its steel...ha ha...I just settle for hitting the trees late at night for right now.

Berkaywt
06-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Can i use Ankle Weight as Wall Bag?

chusauli
06-18-2009, 10:22 AM
Sure, why not?

You can also take an old pair of jeans, cut the leg, sew it and fill it with beans, rice or sand (depending on your level) and use it. 1000 punches a day is a good start!

Good luck!

sanjuro_ronin
06-18-2009, 12:58 PM
yes but its steel...ha ha...I just settle for hitting the trees late at night for right now.

Hang the wall bag off the stairwell.

anerlich
06-18-2009, 02:54 PM
Yeah.

What do you have to lose from trying it out?

Yoshiyahu
06-18-2009, 06:10 PM
Hang the wall bag off the stairwell.

That would make more nose than if i was to punch my wall in the apartment...

Yoshiyahu
06-18-2009, 06:23 PM
Where can you buy some canvas bags with out zippers just string that ties...to fill with beans...

Tensei85
06-18-2009, 07:01 PM
Actually I used the method as described by Chu Sifu and that was 7-8 years ago & the bag is still usable. On a side note I also used old bank coin sacks and either placed them over a hard surface for conditioning or filled them with mung beans, sand, still shots etc... make sure to place which ever you decide to fill with in a plastic or equivalant bag so as not to leak. But yea ankle weights will work, I also used a wooden parking post and burried it in the ground, wrap it and it makes a good makiwara. So just a few ideas.

mjw
07-15-2009, 11:05 PM
Where can I buy some quality wall bags online etc or near Chicago?

Tensei85
07-16-2009, 11:05 AM
Here's a few links:

http://www.bokleipo.com/default.php?cPath=39&sort=2a&&page=2

http://www.wle.com//store/t_miscellaneous.html

Hard Rice
05-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Hey Everyone,

I was on the look out to purchase a 3 sectional wall bag, but wanted your input. I was on the look out for a vinyl versus the canvass, but the issue is finding a vinyl bag that I can use. The reason for the vinyl is so that I won't be ripping my hands to shreds.

What do you think about is one? "James Sinclair - 3-Section Wallbag"

thx in advance...

shawchemical
05-24-2010, 05:36 PM
Hey Everyone,

I was on the look out to purchase a 3 sectional wall bag, but wanted your input. I was on the look out for a vinyl versus the canvass, but the issue is finding a vinyl bag that I can use. The reason for the vinyl is so that I won't be ripping my hands to shreds.

What do you think about is one? "James Sinclair - 3-Section Wallbag"

thx in advance...

Canvas is the only way to go.

Your hands will get used to the canvas quickly.

Hard Rice
05-25-2010, 08:56 AM
Thanks!! Crushed Moung Beans here I come!

LoneTiger108
05-25-2010, 09:08 AM
What do you think about is one? "James Sinclair - 3-Section Wallbag"

I wasn't aware Sifu Sinclair made his own wallbags, but his DVD is okay. ;)