Wing Chun Vs Boxing

[Mannie]

Hi everyone,

I teach Hakarac Boxing and twice a week we have an open sparring policy where any other martial system can come and spar.
We have had Ninjitsu - Muay Thai - Karate - TaeKwon Do - Wing Chun - Etc..
Every other system has fallen short in actual sparring apart from Wing Chun.
But even here lies a dillema.
When sparring the Wing Chun fighter will retaliate forward at any attempted strike by the boxer. When he does this most of the time he leaves himself open to second attacks which is one of the key conponents in a boxers arsenal.
A boxer will probe, fake, frustrate so that you initiate. All he is doing is setting you up.
I will give an example which occur often in Boxer Vs Wing Chun in sparring.
- Boxer jabs lightly
- Wing Chun tries to retaliate
- Boxer dances away (but now he knows hes opponents weakness)
- Boxer jabs fast and lightly (already with a plan)
- Wing Chun surges forward retaliating
- Boxer side steps to the left and has converted the light jab into a hook
- Wing Chun is caught with his arms extended and low, and receives a blow to the side of the head.
This happens often due to the fact that a Wing Chun fighter is trying to commit to a non commited Boxers strike.

If anyone can shed some common sense in overcoming this approach in dealing with a boxer please assist.

Thank you

[Paul T England]

Its hard to train or re-train yourself not to fall into that trap (I still do it myself) but I think if you drill it outside of free sparring then that should help. Also chi sau skills transfered as you have to loose contact with the hook and that should send alarm bells ringing.

Paul

[Paul T England]

Hi Mannie,

Having an open mat/spar session sounds like a good idea but what rules do you use, how much contact do guys use, do you get them to sign a disclaimer and what equipment do you use?

Paul

[Taff]

I guess if the WC guy's retaliation is an affective attack, instead of just an interception, then it might change things.

On the otherhand, if you only manage to intercept, when the boxer dances away, try to stick to him and follow him, crowd him out perhaps.

As always, easier said than done.

[Wilson]

Don't over commit. Yes, treat the feint as an attack and enter from there, but you have to remain flexible if the guy moves.

This is not a Wing Chun problem. It is THAT wing chun fighter's approach versus THAT boxer's approach. If another fighter from boxing, muay thai, TKD, etc. were to overcommit to the first boxer's feint, you could see the exact same scenario.

Wing Chun doesn't say over commit. It comes down to the fighters, it is not an inherent wing chun versus boxing problem.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Mannie, go to:
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/cgi-bin/wck.cgi?cgi_submit=See+Videos
Click on TWC and look for the videos cheung spar 1 & 2 and Cheung vs Boxing.
These are a few clips from the William Cheung "Wing Chun vs Boxing" tape . There is some "light" sparring with a peek-a-boo boxing trainer.
Phil

[Merryprankster]

Every other system has fallen short in actual sparring apart from Wing Chun.

I usually find that statements like this are the result of people having different perspectives on what constitutes "success" in sparring.

[Mannie]

Our open sparring sessions range from school sparring (pre-arranged) to full contact pre-competition (Amateur Boxing & Fight Nites) to X-Factor sparring (Between furniture / with lights off / Sellected (each student has a specific tast in attacking). The sparring goes from 25% to 100% contact.
Everyone does sign a waiver prior to training. And the equipment is headguard / mouthguard / gloves (size is by choice)

And yes overcommiting is a Wing Chun problem. Every instructor i've ever trained in or talked to tell his students to always move forward into every attack. This is commiting. You must have a predators mentality and not a berserker.

Success in sparring leads to confidence in the street.

Sticking to the boxer and crowding him leads to another problem often faced in that the Hakarac Boxer Covers & steps forward to retaliate with low / high hooks or uppercuts then shoves.

Another problem that i'm trying to change in the Wing Chun guys that come training is that they punch from the chest and not from the jaw.

Your input is appreciated. Thank you.

[Taff]

Another problem that i'm trying to change in the Wing Chun guys that come training is that they punch from the chest and not from the jaw.



What do you mean by that exactly?

[sihing]

One of the WC concepts we incorporate is the Concept of Interruption, or the ability to interrupt one's movements anywhere along is path, whether it is while performing a defensive or offensive movement. Now with the example given, if you train distance and timing attributes the problem will be lessened, and also a low guard is a no no and I don't understand why one would end up with a guard too low countering a jab/hook combo. Always remember that when your opponent can make contact with you with either his fists or feet then you can too, so it is a timing issue. Coming around your central line guard with a hook is slower than your straight but if you execute it too early or too far away of course you will be countered.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mannie:

What you describe about the boxer vs. wing chun (boxer jabs - wing chun guy goes forward while extending his arms - boxer hooks off the jab while moving to his left and hits him)...is a scenario I've been working with and learning about for many years now - as I have a student trained in boxing who's been coming to my wing chun classes on and off for about 12 years now.

And the answers I've come up with to deal with this (and other boxing moves and strategies - such as holding the hands and arms back close to the body while waiting for the wing chun man to commit and extend, like Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano)...

have been a large array of moves, footwork, and strategies taken not just from the Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) that I do, but also from some boxing, JKD, and other arts as well:

combinations of various types of low front, roundhouse, sidekicks, and entry techniques as a means to get close enough to either hit his body/head, or force contact with his arms (even an aggressive bong sao into lop or pak da can sometimes work here)...as well as stiff jabs of my own to make him react (jabs that are thrown on lines wherein his arms/hands are located - so he has to either engage a bridge or go around (and I'm always expecting him to try and hook around) - and I counter it with a biu/lop on the inside of his punching elbow to unbalance him and hit him...sometimes even taking it into a clinch and takedown.

And I also sometimes use rear crosses, hooks, and uppercuts of my own as a means of not only doing damage but also as a bridge to closer wing chun striking/trapping and forward energy range...mixed with elbow and knee shots as well.

[AndrewS]

Mannie,

a few things:

I'd break this down OODA-style.

Observation- if the WC guy is biting on feints or baited by jabs, his or her range gauge is off, and they need to learn a better sense of when the distance is such that they can cover it and come in without taking too much risk.

Orientation- if the WC guy is getting fed bait and taking it, and the boxer is changing in the middle, the WC guy isn't able to recognize (or act on) change in relation mid-flow, or realize where the other guy is setting up to go.

Decision- If you can see what's in the cards, and catch how it can change, then the only decision is in, out, or cover. With the right information, going in is a decent strategy.

Action- How you go in- I'll bet you the guys you see getting caught move to where the guy is moving from, not to where he's gonna be, or to cut off where he's gonna be. I try to move in so I cut off where I see someone could go, still feel my attack up an open line, and stay covered by my attack, while trying to wind up in the place where, if the other guy goes where I think he will, I can abuse him. This is a bit more than 'just going in'- but violates no WC principles.

Anyway, southpaws, and anyone who hooks off a jab should be shot on general principle.

More concretely- lots of range drills, and isolation sparring where a boxer feeds the WC guy setups off the jab mixed with combis.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

BTW, I wasn't trying to be a jerk with what I wrote. I realize how brusque it looks now!

What I mean is that different people working from different perspectives have different ideas about what constitutes "success" in a sparring format.

If one person is playing chess, but another checkers, then determining who "won" can be difficult. :D

[Tao Kahn]

"And yes overcommiting is a Wing Chun problem. Every instructor i've ever trained in or talked to tell his students to always move forward into every attack. This is commiting. " Mannie

My sifu necer told me that I have to move forward everytime into every attack. Why couldn't I move backwards? Why would I want to be predictable?

Jabs are quite awkward beacuse they are very fast and uncommited as you say and usually after them follows some other punch (like cross for instance). Having all that in mind I think that maybe the best strategie would be to punch a punch. Either with a straght SLT punch from the center /(as it is practised through the sat san choi exercise) or by a punch which is delivered to the center line (as it is practised through the hoi ma exercise). Of course it all depends on the situation but this is INMHO one of the good sollutions. It is unwise to go chasing the jab beacuse you will run into a second punch...... as you allready wrote....

"Boxer jabs fast and lightly (already with a plan)
- Wing Chun surges forward retaliating
- Boxer side steps to the left and has converted the light jab into a hook
- Wing Chun is caught with his arms extended and low, and receives a blow to the side of the head." Mannie

Wing Chuner should never be caught with his arms extended and low even when he is in the middle of an attack. If Wing Chuner decides to go forward he must do something that will unable the opponent to efectively land a second punch. If your opponent is left in balance and you are caught within his range you are gona be in a big trouble.

p.s. note that if both of them are using boxing gloves or defense gear (and i guess they have to have something) it could be very difficult for a wing chun guy to succesfully spar with a boxer if there is a big difference in size and/or stamina beacuse sparing falls into a categorie of sport and has it's own rules. But even in those conditions i think that "punching a punch" is also a good sollution.

pozdrav,
Ivan

[SevenStar]

I guess if the WC guy's retaliation is an affective attack, instead of just an interception, then it might change things.

On the otherhand, if you only manage to intercept, when the boxer dances away, try to stick to him and follow him, crowd him out perhaps.

As always, easier said than done.

The jab is probably a hard strike to stick to. It's a fast, probing punch - not very committed. An as you follow, here comes the lead hook, as mannie stated, or the right cross.

[anerlich]

What do you mean by that exactly?

I think he means their guard is held too low, thus leaving the chin open. Too many WC guys tend to spar with their arms extended patty cake style, and their chins stuck out trying to see over the hands. A boxer would love that.


Every instructor i've ever trained in or talked to tell his students to always move forward into every attack.

This is a gross overgeneralisation. You don't appear to have talked to any TWC instructors, just to mention one substyle.

Personally, I feel the stereotypical WC strategy of trying to control the lead arm with one of yours and hit with the other is playing right into the boxer's game. If you try the pak sao from the outside against the lead elbow, especially if you push down, you're just about begging for him to hook off the jab.

You should be trying to hit him with your own attack rather than waiting for his.


Anyway, southpaws, and anyone who hooks off a jab should be shot on general principle.

I'm a southpaw :(

[Mannie]

This is turning into a realy good thread guys.

Thanks for your input.

When i stated that WC punches from the chest and not the chin was basically that every WC fighter that comes and spars in my club takes on the traditional stance with one hand forward and the other back close to the chest.
This presents plenty of oppourtunity to a boxer.

Also Pak Sao (Lightly) is a good defence provided also that its not commited. As you commit one motion it slows down the second motion, especially to a solid target. That is why boxers seem as if they can punch fast with a variable of combinations. All they are doing is picking which punch is a sting / a fake / a draw out or a knock out.

I must be honest here and state that i am already working on some concepts to deal with boxers. Having boxed for 14 years gives me excellent insite.
The reason for this thread is that i am putting a WC fighter into Sate Titles Amateur Boxing and am trying to find out if anyone else can aid me in applying WC applications that im not aware off.

One of the ways that is effective in dealing with a boxers jabs is a short - light forward Pak Sao. This works in reverse that it gives the boxer confidence to commit and puts the WC fighter in a dominant position.

If any WC practisioners would like advice in dealing with boxers, please dont hesitate to ask and i will endevour to help.

Keep your input comming.

[YungChun]

- Boxer jabs lightly
- Wing Chun tries to retaliate


What is the distance and energy state of both fighters here? This is key in making anything work in any style. Understanding how to use distancing, timing, momentum and angles, as well as, being aware of them in use by the opponent are critical. These skills must come first and foremost and are fundamental to making any combat tactic work.

If the boxer jabs lightly at the wrong distance, then he may be in trouble. If the WCK man tries to enter from the wrong distance, under the wrong conditions, then he may be in trouble, etc.



This happens often due to the fact that a Wing Chun fighter is trying to commit to a non commited Boxers strike.


See above.

[Edmund]

One of the best ways to train a fighter and address their problems is to hold pads for them.

If their back hand is dropping while hitting one pad, you tap them on the head with the spare pad. Also by moving the target pad forward and back you can simulate a situation where they might overcommit. Crowding can be imitated by only presenting the target pad close to them. The back of the forearm for the spare pad can be used to shove or the front of the pad used to slap around low and high to get them to defend.

[5Animals1Path]

I've just got one question. Since when did moving forward imply commitment? Perhaps if you're throwing yourself forward, leaping off the rear leg. But if you're merely moving forward, it's not so difficult to shift the weight back to the rear leg.

The commitment to the action's the real problem, not moving forwards.

[fa_jing]

In some styles of Wing Chun the hands are held lower around the solar plexus to help defend against lower-gate attacks such as kicks. If you are playing boxing rules I'd say the "Hands up, elbows down, eyes wide open" rule applies.

In terms of dealing with the jab I think evasion and distance are the most important, but I think checking then countering with the same hand can be effective. Not a trap with one hand and hit with the other. Make contact with the jab and as it retracts follow it back with a hit. My teacher can jut sao using the thick part of the boxing glove then hit with the same hand

The only two hand trap I've made work in sparring is fook or pak to lan sao then come over with a punch from the other hand.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn through sparring was not to trade a jab for a hook. Same goes for any Wing Chun punch that does not land with absolutely full contact with all the structure behind it. The fight doesn't end just because you landed a punch, lots of guys can take a punch. So the punch has to be stiff to physically prevent the other fighter from moving towards you, and furthermore you have to be expecting a counter.

[SevenStar]

The key to this is sparring alot even if you get hit (invest in loss)

that's not the right attitude to have when sparring - getting hit is part of it. It, in it's entirety is a learning experiece. This statement sounds like you are advocating sparring more if you don't get hit.


then going back and analyse what you did right or wrong according to the wing chun idioms/concepts,and principles. Loi lao lat sao jit chung is the most important principle here to analyse then go back into sparring to test out any new idea ( there are many layers to this principle which is the essence of the entire wing chun system)

this however, I agree with.

[cerebus]

Lots of great info here. I was a boxer for 5 years myself, I also trained in WC (and though the training was intensive, it was only the basics and for only 6 months). Anyway, what Mannie mentioned as problems he noticed with the WC guys in sparring are some things which are commonly seen in other martial arts as well.

Wing Chun has the potential to work quite well against boxing but several factors should be considered, such as:

1) If you're going to advance in retaliation against a jab, you have to be prepared to use your footwork to close on the boxer fast (especially if he likes to "stick and move") and use your own lead punch in a manner similar to the jab (repeated fast, "jabs" while advancing).

2) As mentioned by others, keep your hands up. Keep the elbows close to the ribs (which WC does a good job of anyway), but keep the hands at around head height. Much less motion will be required to intercept fast punch combos that way (and don't try to deflect EVERY punch. If you're receiving a fast barrage of punches you won't be able to deflect all of them, just keep your chin down, your hands up, and use your footwork to get away WHILE throwing your own punching combos).

3) Take some clues from HOW boxers do their punches & punching combos. EVERY punch in boxing has an equivalent in WC. And I'm speaking of just the standard Chung Kuen vertical fist. All you have to do is alter the angle you're using it from. Chung Kuen can be used as a jab, a straight cross, a hook or an uppercut just by altering the angle or manner in which it's thrown (fast, snappy, and repeatedly for a jab, straight and powerfully for a cross, angled from the side with the elbow bent for a hook, and angled upward with the body driving it for an uppercut).

[SevenStar]

I dunno if I'd throw a vertical fisted uppercut - for the same reason I'm leary of throwing a horizontal fisted hook.

[AndrewS]

SS,

actually, Rodney King of SBGi and CM fame, has been heard advocating vertically fisted uppercuts to the head, and has coached his guys to use them.

Horizontal hooks- I've heard this one go back and forth enough that I'm kind of an atheist about it. Any reason you have besides the hope of less likelihood of a boxer's fracture?

Andrew

[cerebus]

I'm not talking about a vertical fist uppercut really. I meant rotating the fist so that it's slightly palm-up (though not completely, as in a regulat uppercut) and using similar body mechanics as with the regular Chung Kuen to strike upward under the jaw.

As for the vertical fist hook, that's actually how I was taught to throw hooks when I was a boxer and found it very effective when in a real fight without the gloves. But actually that's not quite what I was referring to either. I actually meant pivoting the body to the side and doing a close-in, sharply angled Chung Kuen with the elbow sharply bent and at the same level as the shoulder & fist (all in one plane, similar to a regular hook, except instead of traveling in a circular manner, it's a straight angle).

Hope that makes it clearer (though it might not... :o ).